[SPOILERS] Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts III

[U.N. Owen]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Considering the gigantic cast we already have, that's far from surprising.

 

[alexis.anagram]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

It's kinda amusing to read people saying "he can't put everything in one game, you can't solve all conflicts in the same game" when Nomura was the one who made this mess in the first place.

Exactly, Nomura has deliberately formulated the entire series to be one massive cul-de-sac of characters and settings where TAV end up in Destiny Islands to meet Sora and Riku pretty much just because and the majority of the original characters in the games are from the same worlds just because and themes and plot points are consistently being recycled just because and yet KH3 doesn't seem to grasp how to utilize this structure to its advantage, and instead looks to be using it in the cheapest and laziest ways to create a world that, despite all of its constant reinforcement of the dramatic vocabulary which has been continuously revisited throughout the series, just feels arbitrary and weak and lacks grounding. It lacks a center, or a thesis:

"Every step you take will always be one step closer to home."
=
Never has you visit either of the home worlds of either its main protagonists or its main antagonists.
???

The fact that 100 Acre Wood would've been a huge world tacked onto it would've softened the blow. Sort of the way Mysterious Tower is connected to TT in KH2, so that you get a short interlude with Yensid without it being a full-fledged world of its own.

I had a weird dream last night that Hundred Acre Woods contained one area that was just this massive black space with hundreds of rainbow, glowing grind rails and you got to ride around on them with Pooh and I don't know what the purpose of it was but it had me totally reevaluating my feelings about that world.

I pretty much knew the score once Nomura was saying that KH can stand on its own and doesn't need FF characters anymore.

Even then he was stringing people along.

"It's not like they won't be in it."

Except, actually, yes, that's pretty much exactly what it's like.

At this point I've noticed that you seem to hate the idea that anyone can be okay with imperfection at this point. As if there's a baseline quality that we should all fight for, and that anything less should be treated as garbage. That we aren't allowed to "be okay" with omissions in KH3.

Do what you want. Sure, I want people to hold this game to a firm, critical standard, and to be uncompromising and all that, but I can't make anyone do anything. I can only make the case for how I'm receiving the game (or what we know of it) and why I feel the way I do. You're welcome to both concede that it's hot garbage, and love it in spite of that. You're welcome to argue that it's the best thing to ever happen. You have the same platform that I do, on a discussion forum where disagreements are going to occur. I'm not going to handhold you to feeling OK about the game, or make excuses on its behalf just so people can keep their echo chamber of hype intact.

 

[wolfshadow0118]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

The only reason I saw radiant garden in bbs, was for back story purposes only, i.e. Kairi, and the somebody's of the organization. I would love to have RG in kh3, butt I feel like it came to a close in kh2. I still want cloud/sephiroth closure, maybe be in olympus. Like the place where it began is where it ends.

 

[ZJGamer]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

There are some good aspects of this idea, such as how Stitch was tied into the storyline, but I wouldn't want Leon to show up as a mere cameo. That's exactly the kind of integration I wouldn't want to see in KH3, and Radiant Garden on the whole is important enough to warrant at least as much attention and resources as Twilight Town; I would argue that it deserved far more given the sheer centrality of it to the story arcs of so many characters. At this point, KH3 is going to have to go out of its way to explain and work around problems like why the Restoration Committee isn't working with Ienzo (and possibly AtW) to help Sora. Or why Lea and Isa are meeting at the Twilight Town clock tower, a place that holds no meaning whatsoever for Isa as a character. Or how, indeed, Aqua will regain her armor if she doesn't get it from the Chamber of Repose under Ansem the Wise's lab. It's not just that the absence of Radiant Garden is a bummer, it actually degrades the continuity and emotional logic of this entry within the context of the whole series.

Speaking of Stitch, how nice is it that KH3 gets neither Destiny Islands or Hawai'i. Used to be the general, accepted consensus that we would only get one, and we all made peace with it, but hey. I guess we really can't have everything

Well again in my scenario for Radiant Castle, I'm trying to give Nomura and the development team the benefit of the doubt, and I'm assuming there just wasn't enough resources or time to make Radiant Garden a full fledged world like Twilight Town. So my scenario is just basically taking the castle sections from KH2, adding in the Chamber of Repose and just making it prettier with the unreal engine 4 while trying to put in just enough story to make it somewhat satisfying. In other words I'm trying to create a compromise between what I and a lot of people wanted from Radiant Garden and what may have been technically and developmentally reasonable for the staff.

Also yes I did want a full fledged Lilo and Stitch world, but if they could have just tied Experiment 626's relationship with Terra, Aqua, and Ventus and the fact that it was Terra who first introduced Stitch to the concept of friendship, just a reference to that would have been enough. And then maybe in KH4 he finally crashes onto Lilo's world.

@ZJGamer: Your idea would have been good enough for me, especially since it puts a cap on a lot of scenes from the 1,000 Heartless battle (Stitch's appearance there, Ienzo and Xigbar's convo crossed with Xemnas walking down into the chamber just before the Demyx battle). I wouldn't even have cared if Radiant Garden was as small as Atlantica was in KH2 as long as the characters were there. The fact that 100 Acre Wood would've been a huge world tacked onto it would've softened the blow. Sort of the way Mysterious Tower is connected to TT in KH2, so that you get a short interlude with Yensid without it being a full-fledged world of its own.

Exactly, I don't think I or a lot of people were asking for much in regards to this, just something small like what I suggested would have been enough. Give us something like my scenario for KH3 and then I'll be perfectly happy to wait for KH4 to see a fully restored Radiant Garden fleshed out like Twilight Town is in KH3. And also I'm making my scenario as bare bones as possible on the basis of Scala ad Caelum being a world as large and detailed as Twilight Town, which even that is still unclear at this point.

Maybe if you want to add a little more to Radiant Castle then you could have the Sephiroth fight happen at the Castle Postern/Castle Gate area, since I would make a bit large than it was in KH2, maybe add a couple of more platforms to it with some pretty flora.

 

[alexis.anagram]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

The only reason I saw radiant garden in bbs, was for back story purposes only, i.e. Kairi, and the somebody's of the organization.

I don't see the purpose of establishing that back story if there's no intention of going anywhere with it.

Well again in my scenario for Radiant Castle, I'm trying to give Nomura and the development team the benefit of the doubt, and I'm assuming there just wasn't enough resources or time to make Radiant Garden a full fledged world like Twilight Town. So my scenario is just basically taking the castle sections from KH2, adding in the Chamber of Repose and just making it prettier with the unreal engine 4 while trying to put in just enough story to make it somewhat satisfying. In other words I'm trying to create a compromise between what I and a lot of people wanted from Radiant Garden and what may have been technically and developmentally reasonable for the staff.

I understand what you're saying, but a fairer compromise would have been the one many of us anticipated during the later stages of KH3's promotion: that there would be no new FF characters outside of the Radiant Garden crew (and possibly DI). I was not happy about that, but I was learning to be comfortable with it. I thought it would have been nice to see a new Olympus cameo in keeping with tradition, but the game could work without it. FF characters inhabiting other original worlds would have been a welcome return to form, too, but having always been a speculative feature I didn't have strongly cemented feelings about it. I did (and still do) want them, but that almost feels like a different discussion entirely. That has to do with atmosphere and tone. It's aesthetic, mostly.

Radiant Garden, and the Restoration Committee, are more concerning, for the reasons I've stated. Nomura has made choices and set groundwork, and that requires payoff. I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he wrote the story that way. If he didn't plan or manage KH3 carefully enough to ensure resources were committed to fulfilling his end of the bargain, he deserves criticism for that. But I think it's more likely that this was a deliberate decision, and RG was never intended for KH3. That's just as bad.

 

[Luminary]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

The lack of the Restoration Committee and playable Radiant Garden is a disappointment for me. I’m sure the story and game can move along without these things just fine, but I do think there was missed creative opportunity here. Also, Radiant Garden not being playable may be a result of not wanting to acknowledge the absence of the FF characters if Nomura was adamant about not including them this time.

The situation reinforces my belief that KH3 isn’t really trying to resolve anything outside of its own original Xehanort plot. Aside from that, I actually believe this game will be looked at as setting the formula for future KH games. Less worlds. Minimal FF involvement. More focus on the Disney aspects. More gameplay variety. Etc.

The question is: is KH3 the right time to shape the look of future KH games or should it have tried to be more in line with the traditions of 1 and 2? I personally won’t know the answer to that until I play the game. It’s possible that in retrospect, I’ll be fine with KH2 having been the soft conclusion for the FF presence in the series as well as KH3’s shift to focus more on the Disney worlds for gameplay and original worlds for story. But I also might end up feeling like KH3 should have been a game that came out in 2013-14, staying more in line with 1 & 2’s traditions to conclude the Xehanort Saga. Then KH4 could have been the departure from the old ways.

 

[Zul]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

There's nothing more I detest than some sub-plot being introduced then abandoned.

The series Heroes was notorious for this and it was beyond irritating.

I agree with the above that this game should not have been the one to introduce a change in direction, the Xehanort arc and all related subplots should have been resolved entirely before moving on.

I suppose one could put them in KH4(which I won't bother with, KH3 is the end of the road for me in regards to this series) but radiant garden was heavily tied to Xehanort, so an opportunity(if not a necessity) has been missed.

 

[Sakuraba Neku]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

KH3 is end of Xehanort Saga and definitely not the best game to change the formula established by KH1/KH2. There's the next saga for that.

I think KH3 will be an incredible game on its own, but the flaws will appear when fans start comparing it to KH1/KH2 and those comparisons will be inevitable.

 

[Sora2016]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Oh, yeah that is quite disappointing to know for sure but I am not surprised... I personally will be continuing with the series so I hope all the people asking about FF at E3 and such was a wake up call to Nomura, but I still think this was the wrong decision. In general, I think its strange how much new in terms of worlds and characters this game tried to incorporate I feel. For the end of the 15 year saga.

The lack of the Restoration Committee and playable Radiant Garden is a disappointment for me. I’m sure the story and game can move along without these things just fine, but I do think there was missed creative opportunity here. Also, Radiant Garden not being playable may be a result of not wanting to acknowledge the absence of the FF characters if Nomura was adamant about not including them this time.

The situation reinforces my belief that KH3 isn’t really trying to resolve anything outside of its own original Xehanort plot. Aside from that, I actually believe this game will be looked at as setting the formula for future KH games. Less worlds. Minimal FF involvement. More focus on the Disney aspects. More gameplay variety. Etc.

The question is: is KH3 the right time to shape the look of future KH games or should it have tried to be more in line with the traditions of 1 and 2? I personally won’t know the answer to that until I play the game. It’s possible that in retrospect, I’ll be fine with KH2 having been the soft conclusion for the FF presence in the series as well as KH3’s shift to focus more on the Disney worlds for gameplay and original worlds for story. But I also might end up feeling like KH3 should have been a game that came out in 2013-14, staying more in line with 1 & 2’s traditions to conclude the Xehanort Saga. Then KH4 could have been the departure from the old ways.

To be fair, this shift definitely happened over a decade ago lol. If anything, this game seems more creative with its inclusion of Disney than the series has been doing for a quite a while.

I agree with the sentiment that maybe KH4 was better for random exclusions like this though.

 

[TruestSyn]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Oh, yeah that is quite disappointing to know for sure but I am not surprised... I personally will be continuing with the series so I hope all the people asking about FF at E3 and such was a wake up call to Nomura, but I still think this was the wrong decision. In general, I think its strange how much new in terms of worlds and characters this game tried to incorporate I feel. For the end of the 15 year saga.



To be fair, this shift definitely happened over a decade ago lol. If anything, this game seems more creative with its inclusion of Disney than the series has been doing for a quite a while.

I agree with the sentiment that maybe KH4 was better for random exclusions like this though.

Without playing it ourselves yet, we don't know there isn't a good excuse for their absence. Kingdom Hearts 4 may show them in full force. We may even have one or two as full on party members. I want them to close a lot of these stories before they open any more, and there could be a feature in KH4 where we have to collect materials to help finish the restoration of Radiant Garden because of their absence in KH3 and then we get a 100% world. That's assuming of course that the end of KH3 doesn't have the world restored to the original state.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

I honestly think this game is too ambitious for its own good. Each world is like going to be playing an individual video game that has its own life and style. I think the Caribbean is going to be one of gaming's history most ambitious attempt at world building, seeing as how it's a massive world inside and already massive video game.

Other than that, I'm not bothered about Squall and the gang not being here, seeing as how KH3 shares the same defect BBS had to handle: a convulated mess of characters that need to be exposed first than the FF characters.

 

[rac7d]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

I honestly think this game is too ambitious for its own good. Each world is like going to be playing an individual video game that has its own life and style. I think the Caribbean is going to be one of gaming's history most ambitious attempt at world building, seeing as how it's a massive world inside and already massive video game.

Other than that, I'm not bothered about Squall and the gang not being here, seeing as how KH3 shares the same defect BBS had to handle: a convulated mess of characters that need to be exposed first than the FF characters.

it doesnt seem that Aelus or Dilan are in the game. We have Ienzo to provide exposition on the heart but were not gonna be learning what happened to his parents and how he came into Ansems care. Is it weird that the people responsible for destruction of Radiant garden are now back in charge in the castle. I wanted to see that world return to it former glory. I expected it to be the ff hub world with even more cameos and fun. It feels like the easy route to just make the victims of their destruction dissappear.

 

[DizneyXBirds95]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Hey, don't you ignore the context about it being funny. KH was charming to me because of the marriage of FF and Disney so of course I'm sad that we don't get any of them, but they DO have a lot of original characters we may see permanently removed from the series that can make room for more FF characters. If we do a more in-depth analysis:

Cloud, Leon, and Cid were the only major players from KH 1 and 2 that really did anything for the plot.

Sephiroth was just a secret boss in 1 and a sub plot in 2 because he's a popular counter-character to Cloud.

Yuffie and Aerith were kinda just there to fill up the roster and Tifa was an additive just to sprinkle in a little more.

Tidus, Wakka, and Selphie were also sorta just there to fill up the roster because the only one who returned again in KH2 was Selphie and otherwise they're an afterthought to the heroes.

Seifer was the only one in KH2 that was really relevant because he was supposed to be this opposing force for Roxas, however Vivi was pretty much new to the gang and didn't seem to have his groove yet and Rai and Fuu were useless in 2.

Setzer was just a plot device, why was he ever even included other than 6 representation is beyond me.

Auron was relevant to the original plot of Olympus Coliseum, but could have been replaced by any other character.

Yuna, Rikku, and Paine were awful and I really wish they hadn't been added to the game at all.

So with that in mind, if they decide to go with a more relevant FF plot or new FF characters because of the removed characters, I'd like to see:

Leon going back to the name Squall and a plot involving him looking for Rinoa and maybe a confrontation with an adult Seifer who found a grudge against Squall for some reason. Maybe a time displacement situation where him and the gang had been lost from their world as kids but wake up again as adults after TT disappears (if we don't see it again in the most recent sequel) and he remembers his anger towards him.

Cloud and Sephiroth shouldn't appear. Putting it simply, they should be wrapped up in 3 if they aren't already.

Wakka and Tidus I'd like to see as grown up too. Give them outfits that match their FF X suits and maybe give them a reason to be searching for something Sin-esque (maybe a heartless terrorizing the Islands?) and on a quest to stop it.

Noctis and crew, I want all four of them to show up and be bros with Sora. Maybe in a situation where Donald and Goofy aren't available so they have to help you reunite. I hope they keep the multiple party member dynamic for future titles.

Lightning only, as a 13 rep because she was also a popular character and I could see her just fitting in just about anywhere. Maybe her and Caius could be the new Cloud and Sephiroth secret boss subplot thing.

What about Tifa? Cause as aside from being somewhat a plot device for the Cloud/Sephiroth subplot and temporarily helping out in the battle of Hollow Bastion all she did was just go on a "Goose Chase" just looking for Cloud but nothing else. Even when she asked Sora that she was looking for someone with "Spiky hair", basically both SDG were blissfully unaware that she was referring to Cloud. :/

Come on Sora who else had spikier hair besides you?

Ienzo asks Sora to use his Keyblade to unlock the chamber. So Sora, Donald, and Goofy head down to the Heartless factory and find Experiment 626 battling another group of enemies. After defeating the enemies, they all head down to the basement and find the chamber has already been unlocked. They head inside and find Terra-Xehanort retrieving Aqua's armor.

Experiment 626 recognizes him, but senses something is wrong about Terra. Terra-Xehanort doesn't stay along and vanishes in a corridor of darkness. Sora promises Experiment 626 they will save Terra and this is where Experiment 626 becomes available as a summon/link.

That would've been awesome for Stitch and his connection to Terra from BBS, in addition to how he's earned as a summon link.

Hope we get to see him again in the next game.

 

[Elysium]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Other than that, I'm not bothered about Squall and the gang not being here, seeing as how KH3 shares the same defect BBS had to handle: a convulated mess of characters that need to be exposed first than the FF characters.

Except all the original characters are already known. Nobody's being introduced (as far as we know). And story could have been told in RG as much as any other world.

 

[TruestSyn]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

What about Tifa? Cause as aside from being somewhat a plot device for the Cloud/Sephiroth subplot and temporarily helping out in the battle of Hollow Bastion all she did was just go on a "Goose Chase" just looking for Cloud but nothing else. Even when she asked Sora that she was looking for someone with "Spiky hair", basically both SDG were blissfully unaware that she was referring to Cloud. :/

Come on Sora who else had spikier hair besides you?


That would've been awesome for Stitch and his connection to Terra from BBS, in addition to how he's earned as a summon link.

Hope we get to see him again in the next game.

I figured I'd forget one lol yeah she wasn't doing much of anything for the plot of KH2 either so she could easily not appear.

EDIT: I didn't forget her, she was a side not with Yuffie and Aerith.

 

[Raz]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Honestly a kind of unforgivable disappointment.

Leon and company were the first people Sora met after traveling to a new world. They introduced us to the Keyblade, connected us with Donald and Goofy, gave us important lore about Maleficent and Ansem the Wise, and are from the home world where SO MANY huge series-impacting events have occurred. They were more a less a family for Sora in the first game, and in the second game it was a joy getting to watch them all work together to bring Radiant Garden back to its former state of glory.

As a cap off to the 'series so far' Kingdom Hearts III at the very least should've given us a chance to say goodbye to these characters. Hell, they should have played a vital role in taking down Xehanort -- similar to how they helped Sora in KHII figure out what is going on with the Organization.

Just a really crap decision to leave them out. Gets rid of any sense of continuity/closure with the first two major games. From a narrative standpoint its sloppy and lazy writing.

 

[Elysium]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Yuffie adds humor to the group similar to Cid. Aerith was a maternal counterpart to Squall. She was the wise voice of the group, particularly in CoM. I don't know how you could consider Squall relevant, but not her considering the two characters worked in tandem with each other in most scenes Sora talks to the group.

Anyway, this kind of slice and dice attempt to diminish a character's value is inane. Fred and George Weasley (and so many others) are irrelevant to the plot of Harry Potter if you want to be needlessly technical--would the books have been the same without them?

 

[DizneyXBirds95]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

I figured I'd forget one lol yeah she wasn't doing much of anything for the plot of KH2 either so she could easily not appear.

EDIT: I didn't forget her, she was a side not with Yuffie and Aerith.

Oh Okay, I was unaware she was in the listing the first I read it.

Seems like I need to read the posts carefully.

 

[MrFranklin95]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

You know, I still feel like all of this is going to be addressed in DLC. A radiant Garden world help earn some goodwill after the backlash I'm sure will follow because of this decision.

 

[mytomxxx]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Its kinda sad we are already thinking of kh4 because kh3 doesn't will have what we want. We are creating this excuses that kh4 will be better. It's just sad.