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PStuder12321

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So I want to kinda just throw this out that, I LOVE kingdom hearts. with a burning passion.. and literally since a kid have been trying to reunite Sora, Kairi, and Riku. Kingdom hearts 3's end was devastating.. and honestly at this point its just coming cross as a lack of ability to write any kind of story continuation. I am a adult now so my thinking on this matter is a lot more mature. Still it would be very nice to finally beable to fulfill my childhood dream. All I ask out of Kingdom hearts 4. Is that Sora, Kairi, and Riku. FINALLY get to STAY together. If the writers or Nomura need help figuring out how to continue the story, for real, just ask me or ANYONE else on these forums. They could have continued the story EASILY to let them push into a kingdom hearts 4 WITHOUT the need to seperate them again, they had the black box in the hands of the foretellers, the Master of Masters coming back. The story is there. why did they have to resort to the lame, lets seperate the trio...again... for the 7th time.. cause we for real can't think of anything better or any kind of new way to push the story forward... Its starting to come off really bad and its VERY dissappointing to the fans to the point that most of the hardcore fans I've known and have loved kingdom hearts growing up, almost all of them have given up on kingdom hearts. Seperating the trio again was the WORST thing they could have done. I beg of them, PLEASE reunite them, then for petes sake, CUT IT OUT. Do NOT do it again. or quiet frankly as a fan who has loved kingdom hearts with all my heart I WILL not support the series past kingdom hearts 4 if they do not reunite them and KEEP them together. I want there to be more games, but not like this. This kidnap Kairi, seperate the trio crap, at first it was great... it should not have continued past Kingdom Hearts 3. It CANNOT continue any more. Kingdom hearts 4 needs to have them all reunited again and they need to never do it again or honestly.. its gonna be the end for them. There are SOOOO many people who feel as I do. I love kingdom hearts... sooo much.. but enough is enough.
 

Zetsumei

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Oooohhh boy, you just touched on one of my ultimate tinfoil hat theories. Now I can't just leave that alone can I ? :)

The idea of at least Sora and Kairi being separated over and over again is something that was touched on very heavily at the end of KH3. Sora even goes as far as to say the ENTIRE reason for his journey is so that he can be together with Kairi again, but every time it gets close to happening, she slips away again.

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In remind, Nomura doubles down on this concept having Sora repeat the line that saving her is the whole reason for his journey.

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Now, having this concept in your head, let's examine Sora's quote at the beginning of KH3. "They can take your world. They can take your heart. Cut you loose from all you know. But if it's your fate, then every step forward will always be a step closer to home."

This quote I think is meant to give us the theme that we are not in control of our own destinies, that everything has already been decided and events are fated to happen. Though it gives a positive tone that ultimately fate will lead us to where we belong, despite all the negative things that may happen along the way.

Now with that out of the way, let's get to the theory shall we ?

I believe this quote is a line that Sora will at some point in the future speak to the Master of Masters.

The Master of Masters I believe represents the futile struggle against fate. Here is a man who traveled back in time and went through great lengths in order to see the future and plan accordingly in order to alter destiny. Looking at Sora's quote, you could say the Master's ideals are in stark contrast to Sora's who believes that fate will ultimately lead to salvation. It's no wonder that these two end up being pitted against each other in the next saga. So how could it be that these two have come to live such different lives that they have come to believe such opposing viewpoints. This brings us back to Sora and Kairi.

Imagine for a moment that Sora did not save Kairi at the end of KH3. Imagine that he did not use the power of waking to save the guardians, imagine that Darkness did in fact prevail and Light did indeed expire. What would this world look like ?

First of all, Sora would be alone. Without his friends to give him strength, how could he continue to fight ? Would he simply give up and allow himself to be defeated by Xehanort ? I don't think so. Remember that Light expired, so what does that leave in this world ? Darkness. I believe Sora in this world would turn to the power of Darkness and seek revenge against Xehanort for everything he had lost. With the Guardians of Light defeated, Xehanort would be forced to enact his backup plan to use the Princesses of Heart to forge the X-Blade instead. Xehanort would quickly retreat with his 13 Darknesses assembled, and have each of them clash with the Princesses of Heart instead, ultimately extinguishing the last light in the world, forging the X-blade and completing his goal to summon Kingdom Hearts and purge the world back to complete darkness so that the world could be reborn anew.

There's only one problem with this plan, Sora is pissed!

Sora arrives just before Xehanort is about to complete the X-blade, with only one Princess of Heart left to form the final key ... Kairi. Sora watches in shock as Xehanort strikes her down, not crystallizing her this time, but actually killing her. Upon seeing this, Sora's rage becomes uncontrollable and fully succumbs to the darkness transforming him into his rage form. The battle between Sora and Xehanort plays out much the same as it did in KH3, with Sora mindlessly decimating all of Organization XIII, including Xehanort. He claims the X-blade and the power to control Kingdom Hearts for himself. However, with all the light in the world having been extinguished, Kingdom Hearts no longer had any power and the X-blade was useless.

For years, Sora wandered this dark world alone, wondering what he could have done differently. How could he have failed so miserably as for things to end up this way. He cursed his fate, and slowly ... the darkness began to drive him mad ... he had forgotten that deep down ... there's a light that never goes out.

One day, after countless years of wandering, a dim yet blinding light emerged from the darkness. Just as the legends had described, the first light was born. Kingdom Hearts was reborn.

Sora awoke before its glowing brilliance dumbfounded and speechless. Yet he could feel its radiance somehow compelling him to move forward. He looked down into his hand and felt a weight he had not felt before. The X-blade too had awakened. He raised it towards the now enormous light before him, and in his heart he knew what it was he had to do. He would go back, far back, as far as he could go, and undo everything that happened, every single event that led up to this cursed fate. And he would make sure that he couldn't fail. He would devise a plan to see into the future so that no matter what, he would always be one step ahead.

This time, he and Kairi, and all of his friends would finally be together, and there would be no way that fate would be able to stop him ... he turned the X-blade and blinding light swept over him as he muttered the words to himself "May my heart be my guiding key."

So there you go folks, my crazy head canon. Yes I am one of the people who thinks Sora is the Master of Masters, and I think I've laid out a pretty good possible scenario as to how that would be the case. If this turns out to be correct, I think it's an excellent story. What better conflict than for the protagonist to ultimately be forced to face off against a version of himself who simply was just dealt a bad hand in life. It's a story of how a person can possibly become completely different and have completely different views just as a result of pure happen stance. On the one hand we have a hero who embraced fate, and on the other a villain who despised it, yet both desiring one simple thing, the love and companionship of his friends.

I personally would love to see this story play out, and see how Nomura would end it. Will Sora be forced to kill himself, or find a way for both versions of himself to be happy in the end ? I might never get to find out, and this might be a story that only exists in my head, but I still love to think about it all the same. :)
 
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Zetsumei

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Just to directly respond to the OP after that long winded derailment, I think there's a very good reason why they keep being separated. :)

This is a story that has played out countless times, over countless attempts to get it right, and it's only just now starting to work out.

If you're as old as I am, and you remember the Bill Murray flick Groundhog Day, then you understand what I mean. :)
 
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PStuder12321

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Oooohhh boy, you just touched on one of my ultimate tinfoil hat theories. Now I can't just leave that alone can I ? :)

The idea of at least Sora and Kairi being separated over and over again is something that was touched on very heavily at the end of KH3. Sora even goes as far as to say the ENTIRE reason for his journey is so that he can be together with Kairi again, but every time it gets close to happening, she slips away again.

In remind, Nomura doubles down on this concept having Sora repeat the line that saving her is the whole reason for his journey.

Now, having this concept in your head, let's examine Sora's quote at the beginning of KH3. "They can take your world. They can take your heart. Cut you loose from all you know. But if it's your fate, then every step forward will always be a step closer to home."

This quote I think is meant to give us the theme that we are not in control of our own destinies, that everything has already been decided and events are fated to happen. Though it gives a positive tone that ultimately fate will lead us to where we belong, despite all the negative things that may happen along the way.

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Ok so that theory is interesting but kinda off topic as to what im saying so Im gonna move on with the point (sorry, is a cool theory though and might make a intersting board. I dont think that'll be the case cause well the story already doesnt support it but its a cool thought.)

As for my topic, You are right Nomura has pushed that concept a lot. HOWEVER, I am saying.. its been done... about 7-8 times... by the same people... in the same story line... They need to move on. It would be nice to see the story CONTINUE and flourish not just repeat itself over and over again. As for the reason sora is going on this journey is to be with Kairi again. it was cute... for the first 9 games.. now... I'd like to see him succeed reunite and the story move on.

Like Axel said, the nice part of fullfilling your dream (or objective.) is you get to find a new dream! So let Sora, Kairi, and Riku be together, Sora and Kairi's relationship grow and MOVE THE STORY ON. Give them a NEW reason to continue, such as, they are keyblade masters now. well...Riku is... Guess sora and Kairi gotta catch up! Huh...sounds like a story progression.. They are guardians of light now... all three of them.. with that comes duties.. like Fighting MoM and stopping a whole no conflict. ...story progression. if they KEPT ALL THREE TOGETHER (im using caps to highlight important parts sorry if its coming off as toxic or anything.) but if they let them stay together, they could start building the romances in the story which is something heavily wanted in the community. I would LOVE to see Kairi and Sora's relationship grow along with several other relationships bloom. Man there is SOOO much they could do in that area. what I'm saying is... they are not only upsetting their fans, but holding THEMSELVES back a LOT by trying to force this "lets seperate them every time cause we cant think of any OTHER way to continue the storyline.) At this point it just comes off as a lack of imagination and ability to write story and just upsets the fans. It really is time for them to progress the story line and stop seperating the trio... it's way over used... by them... lol
 

PStuder12321

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Just to directly respond to the OP after that long winded derailment, I think there's a very good reason why they keep being separated. :)

This is a story that has played out countless times, over countless attempts to get it right, and it's only just now starting to work out.

If you're as old as I am, and you remember the Bill Murray flick Groundhog Day, then you understand what I mean. :)

I mean yeah. which is what made it good.. for the first 9 games.. but now... its like beating a dead horse and is just coming off as bad writing. as I said in my post I just made, It's rehashed so many times now in the same game series that there is jsut so much more story progression they COULD be taking but aren't because they are to busy just rewriting the same storyline over and over again.
 

Zetsumei

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I think I need to elaborate a little more on what I mean when I say the story has played out countless times.

This is a very common trope among stories that involve time travel. The idea that no matter what you do, destiny is unchangeable. Things may happen this way or that way, but inevitably the outcome remains the same.

The book of prophecies tells us that Darkness prevails and Light expires. That is the final entry, after that there is nothing else. Which means that Sora's ultimate fate is to lose everything, one way or another it will happen. The fact that Sora can never seem to be together with Kairi is proof that this is occurring. No matter how many times Sora tries to change it, the outcome remains the same. While I think Nomura is probably writing a story that will lead to Sora escaping this fate, right now, he's stuck in this cycle.

It's not that they keep writing the same story over and over again, but more so, that is the entire point of the story to begin with.

Call it bad writing if you wish, but it would seem at least Sora is now at the point where he's starting to realize what's happening and potentially being able to do something about it. I think that's where the next saga is heading at least.
 
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PStuder12321

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I think I need to elaborate a little more on what I mean when I say the story has played out countless times.

This is a very common trope among stories that involve time travel. The idea that no matter what you do, destiny is unchangeable. Things may happen this way or that way, but inevitably the outcome remains the same.

The book of prophecies tells us that Darkness prevails and Light expires. That is the final entry, after that there is nothing else. Which means that Sora's ultimate fate is to lose everything, one way or another it will happen. The fact that Sora can never seem to be together with Kairi is proof that this is occurring. No matter how many times Sora tries to change it, the outcome remains the same. While I think Nomura is probably writing a story that will lead to Sora escaping this fate, right now, he's stuck in this cycle.

It's not that they keep writing the same story over and over again, but more so, that is the entire point of the story to begin with.

Call it bad writing if you wish, but it would seem at least Sora is now at the point where he's starting to realize what's happening and potentially being able to do something about it. I think that's where the next saga is heading at least.

So to reply to you, That could be the case however for the book of prophecies saying darkness prevails and light expires, that already happened. The scene where Sora's whole team is killed and he is sent to the final world and then has to earn his body back to go back and then save his friends from death as well was that moment where Darkness prevailed and light expired. The game said it as it happened.

How ever for Sora realising there is some force trying to keep them apart and is going to eventually break that cycle and finally get Kairi back for good, THAT is EXACTLY what I'm asking for. It could be that I'm communicating it poorly, but what I'm saying is, it's time for that. I feel its happened to many times were they have been seperated and I would like to see the story progress where they break that chain.


as for Face my Fears reply (trying to quote it but its not working? confused)

The intro to KH3 makes me strongly believe that some force is purposefully keeping Sora/Kairi apart. I think there's some sort of power that is born when they are together (seen in ReMIND). I suspect that the force keeping them apart is the Master of Masters.

That could indeed be what is happening, if it is, I would love for them to move into this story line in the next KH game and if that is the case then I am sure they will move into it as we all pretty much alreayd know MoM is the next main bad guy. At which point I am very excited for it to come out (hopefully quickly) because, as I've said, I am very anxious to reunite sora and Kairi, and of course Riku to, forever! playful side note.. I've been trying to bring these two back together so they can finally have theri relationship and live happily since I was 8 years old!!!! IM DETERMINED!!!! lol
 

Zetsumei

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So to reply to you, That could be the case however for the book of prophecies saying darkness prevails and light expires, that already happened. The scene where Sora's whole team is killed and he is sent to the final world and then has to earn his body back to go back and then save his friends from death as well was that moment where Darkness prevailed and light expired. The game said it as it happened.

Yes, and because Sora defied his fate, he was literally erased from reality lol. He did stuff that wasn't supposed to happen and the universe said nope! lol

Obviously, this isn't the end for him, hence why I said Nomura is writing a way for him to escape the cycle. Believe me, I'm rooting for Sora and Kairi too, I just don't think Nomura is going to make it easy :)
 
D

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The intro to KH3 makes me strongly believe that some force is purposefully keeping Sora/Kairi apart. I think there's some sort of power that is born when they are together (seen in ReMIND). I suspect that the force keeping them apart is the Master of Masters.
I think there's a lot in that and Kairi being used to manipulate Sora by the bad guys is a running theme right from KH1's Ansem's reports which say that Ansem used Kairi to find the 'key bearer', which is referenced again in DDD by Young Xehanort. In KH2 Saïx notes that Kairi fuels Sora's anger, hence why they kidnapped her. And in KH3 Xigbar seems to know what will happen to Sora already in Olympus so he probably knows what Kairi's role will be in it, so there you can see the hand of the MoM.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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Nomura is totally into tragic bs. Guaranteed Sora and Kairi's happiest ending is them both not being dead and them accepting that they can't BE together but will always be in each other's hearts.
 

AmaryllisMoth

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The intro to KH3 makes me strongly believe that some force is purposefully keeping Sora/Kairi apart. I think there's some sort of power that is born when they are together (seen in ReMIND). I suspect that the force keeping them apart is the Master of Masters.

Exactly. I've said the same thing myself a few times: Sora and Kairi are going to be up to some crazy shenanigans the moment they are allowed to be fighting together long term. Also like someone said earlier, Sora himself has also mentioned that he and Kairi keep getting pulled apart. And if a character points it out like that specifically, it HAS to mean something. It's going to be thematically relevant. I get that there can often be superfluous dialogue, but Nomura kind of enjoys hiding clues in what people say to each other. Especially at the ending like that.

More to the point of the post, I think the notion of "destiny" is going to be a huge theme for future games (or more directly than it has been, where it was just previously some kind of...vague buzz word thrown around). We already have implications of themes from Versus 13 popping up and that game was all about learning your true destiny. And Sora being separated from Kairi really puts to test their belief that "destiny" will bring them together again. If they can make it through this next trial I really don't see anything standing in their way down the road.

Personally I want Kingdom Hearts as a whole to ultimately have a happy ending.

We haven't ever really gotten a fully "everything is happy" finale to any of the games and I can understand feeling a bit burnt out by the constant bittersweet ones, but I think that is one way for them to indicate that this really isn't the end yet. It's still just part of the journey. Rather than seeing each separation as another bait, I choose to see it as yet another part of the whole, in the belief that in the end it is going to work out. If everything was fully wrapped up and happy perhaps it might feel too much like their travels are over.

Besides all of that: every time the characters have been separated it has done wonders for allowing characterization. Sora being separated from Riku allowed their friendship to only get stronger, and for Riku to massively improve as a person. With Sora gone I can only imagine this opens the door for other characters to shine in the interim. It isn't just "let's pull the rug out of their happy ending and make Sora go bye-bye just because!" If Kingdom Hearts is supposed to be Sora's story, there isn't much opportunity for other characters to step up as often, unless there is an excuse for Sora to not be there (just look at all the complaints people have about the finale of 3 and how much Sora "dominates" it.) Now, I am speaking as someone who loves Sora to bits but I can understand how for the narrative his absence is going to be great for the cast as a whole.

But I get it, in some ways. I want nothing more than a SRK game myself.
 

Zetsumei

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But I get it, in some ways. I want nothing more than a SRK game myself.

Somewhat off topic, but if kingdom hearts adopted ff7:remakes party system of allowing you to free switch party members on the fly, then I would love nothing more than to cruise around the world with SRK just wreaking havoc all day :)

Do it Nomura! :D

Hell even being able to swap to donald and rip off zettaflares at faces would be epic :p
 

SweetYetSalty

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At some point I want to see Sora, Riku, and Kairi have a adventure together. Hopefully sooner then later. With Sora gone right now we can possibly have 2/3's of that with Riku and Kairi working together. Ideally If Sora is rescued before it I would enjoy KH4 being that game. Love Donald and Goofy and they of course can still be in the game along with the other heroes, but we're so overdue for a SRK game where they work together and go on a adventure.
 

PStuder12321

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I think there's a lot in that and Kairi being used to manipulate Sora by the bad guys is a running theme right from KH1's Ansem's reports which say that Ansem used Kairi to find the 'key bearer', which is referenced again in DDD by Young Xehanort. In KH2 Saïx notes that Kairi fuels Sora's anger, hence why they kidnapped her. And in KH3 Xigbar seems to know what will happen to Sora already in Olympus so he probably knows what Kairi's role will be in it, so there you can see the hand of the MoM.

Yeah I think its a pretty solid theory that the MoM is behind it and if thy want to break this chain and be together finally then the will have to deal with the MoM.


Nomura is totally into tragic bs. Guaranteed Sora and Kairi's happiest ending is them both not being dead and them accepting that they can't BE together but will always be in each other's hearts.

I mean Nomura does seem to be like this seperation deal but I do have to agree that there is a meaning behind it other then he's a bit sadistic. I do feel its the MoM doing it and that they will eventually break it by defeating the MoM. Plus its hard to see a game series that has so much disney influence not have a happy ending to it where they end up together.

More to the point of the post, I think the notion of "destiny" is going to be a huge theme for future games (or more directly than it has been, where it was just previously some kind of...vague buzz word thrown around). We already have implications of themes from Versus 13 popping up and that game was all about learning your true destiny. And Sora being separated from Kairi really puts to test their belief that "destiny" will bring them together again. If they can make it through this next trial I really don't see anything standing in their way down the road.

Personally I want Kingdom Hearts as a whole to ultimately have a happy ending.

But I get it, in some ways. I want nothing more than a SRK game myself.

I trimmed the quote for ease sake xD

As for it having a happy ending! It better! though yes it would be nice to see more characters in play, Personally I was happy I got to play a lot of them though I was wanting to play Kairi some. I thought that would be awesome. Mostly I guess just hoping for KH4 to finally give us the happy ending feeling we've been so deprived of. :D
 

PStuder12321

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At some point I want to see Sora, Riku, and Kairi have a adventure together. Hopefully sooner then later. With Sora gone right now we can possibly have 2/3's of that with Riku and Kairi working together. Ideally If Sora is rescued before it I would enjoy KH4 being that game. Love Donald and Goofy and they of course can still be in the game along with the other heroes, but we're so overdue for a SRK game where they work together and go on a adventure.

ok what is SRK game? I dont know what that means. but yes this is EXACTLY what ive been wanting and was hoping KH4 would be which is why Im so upset they got seperated AGAIN. It would be so nice to play as the trio.
 
D

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ok what is SRK game? I dont know what that means. but yes this is EXACTLY what ive been wanting and was hoping KH4 would be which is why Im so upset they got seperated AGAIN. It would be so nice to play as the trio.
I think that means a game focusing on Sora, Riku, and Kairi (SRK for short).
 

PStuder12321

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I think that means a game focusing on Sora, Riku, and Kairi (SRK for short).

OOOH yes... I SOOOOOO big time want this... I just posted in another thread how that would be SOOO good for the series. they could build up the friendships that are lacking (like how everyone feels sora and Kairis friendship isnt as strong as it should be.) They could build up romances more. The adventure would be SUCH a blast. Nomura has SO much to gain by just keeping the trio together and expanding the game that way. Personally if KH4 is them fighting MoM I hope they beat MoM or at least break the chain for them to continue the adventure together as Sora riku and Kairi and Not Sora Goofy and Donald. I love goofy and donald. But I think its way past time for the real Trio to be a thing. If he made it so after KH4 they were together for good and built up the story more and gave us games after KH4 that where SRK I think the series would do nothing but boon.
 

Zettaflare

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Once Sora returns to the realm of light I'm certain the Destiny trio will be separate while they deal with the Foretellers. Sora will have Donald and Goofy, Riku will have Mickey, and Kairi will hopefully get her own Disney companions.

Which is why I'm happy the three of them are getting their own game in the form of DDD Volume 2
 

PStuder12321

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Once Sora returns to the realm of light I'm certain the Destiny trio will be separate while they deal with the Foretellers. Sora will have Donald and Goofy, Riku will have Mickey, and Kairi will hopefully get her own Disney companions.

Which is why I'm happy the three of them are getting their own game in the form of DDD Volume 2

Well Kairi and Lea will probably be a team. lets also not forget Ven Aqua and Terra.

However what do you mean they are getting their own game in the form of DDD volume 2? Did I miss something, is that the game coming out before KH4?
 
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