About latest Disney's productions

[Chie]

Everything after the "I agree that Disney deserves no praise for any of this stuff, BUT..." was aimed at decrying my criticisms as being conservative and hyperbolic

If you're at the point of accusing people that they didn't actually mean what they said and instead had a secret agenda to slander all your views that they dishonestly disguised as a single criticism, that speaks for itself, I think.

 

[AR829038]

By the logic "no corporation should have diversity in their movies unless they're honest about it" there would be no diversity ever anywhere outside of indie stuff.

Don't twist my words! I never said "no corporation should have diversity in their movies unless they're honest about it."

I said we shouldn't fall for companies pandering to us with empty shows of diversity when we should expect better from them. We shouldn't financially support movies that have little effort put into them simply because of shallow identity politics.

Now I have no idea what country you're from or what the political situation is there, but it's not the same kind of climate we have in the US. There are different dynamics at play here, and it's better than a country where lgbtq people aren't shown at all in media, but that doesn't mean there aren't issues with how representation and diversity are being weaponized and commodified by profit-driven companies.

There seems to be this general misunderstanding here (not helped by people brazenly lying about what I've said) that I don't want companies to engage in diversity if they stand to gain financially from it. That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying we should be wary of companies that pretend to be progressive outwardly while inwardly acting in very conservative ways. Disney is an enormous company. There are plenty of people who work there who are legitimately progressive, and who strive to make content that, while it seeks to make money, is primarily drive by a desire to tell a good story and make a positive impact on society. But there are also many people at Disney who are just greedy money-grubbing suits who would sell black and queer people down the river if they thought it was the more profitable way to go. I'm just saying, people need to be careful about lowering their standards for what gets called "progressive," and should be careful of heaping too much praise on a studio for putting forth a VERY minimal effort.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

And to your last point, I've already said, I wouldn't mind Ariel being black if there was a narratively relevant reason for it. Like, what if they made a Little Mermaid remake, but set in the Caribbean?

The race of the mermaid doesn't have to be logical, the only important thing for that character is that she's a good singer -- and she's one of the best. Besides, neither of us have seen the movie, who knows what kind of hoops they'll jump through. It hasn't escaped my notice that all of Ariel's sisters are of different races and their names are being changed to coincide with the 7 seas, apparently. There's still a very real possibility that they'll induce some sort of logic to put paid to this line of thought.

Not that they needed it.

Like, sorry, but I *cannot* believe that Disney has so little faith in its films that from a CONCEPTUAL level, before a frame has been shot or even a character has been cast that they decide amongst themselves that it's imperative to stack the deck and cast someone solely for the color of their skin. If this was a plan that they were taking, wouldn't they have done it with any of the other remakes that came out while Little Mermaid was stuck in its four years of development hell? Cause I still see a white Alice, a white Aurora, a white Belle, a white Cinderella

Edit: And to be clear, I'm not calling Disney or this movie a beacon of forward progressive thinking. I will never credit a company like Disney with that at all. I don't think any human with a modicum of sense would praise a monopolistic corporation of being some sort of thought-leading collective of activism. Like, it's good that you challenge Disney on having fake progressivism, but this movie was going to be made anyway and the fact that they opened up its cast to EVERYONE regardless of skin color IS a step that most people couldn't have dreamed of being possible just mere decades ago.

 

[AR829038]

If you're at the point of accusing people that they didn't actually mean what they said and instead had a secret agenda to slander all your views that they dishonestly disguised as a single criticism, that speaks for itself, I think.

Well I think you have an abusive and manipulative personality to engage in as much bad faith as you have. Anybody can go back and read what you wrote and what I wrote. You're trying to cover your tracks because you know that I'm right, but you don't want to lose face.

The race of the mermaid doesn't have to be logical, the only important thing for that character is that she's a good singer -- and she's one of the best. Besides, neither of us have seen the movie, who knows what kind of hoops they'll jump through. It hasn't escaped my notice that all of Ariel's sisters are of different races and their names are being changed to coincide with the 7 seas, apparently. There's still a very real possibility that they'll induce some sort of logic to put paid to this line of thought.

Not that they needed it.

Like, sorry, but I *cannot* believe that Disney has so little faith in its films that from a CONCEPTUAL level, before a frame has been shot or even a character has been cast that they decide amongst themselves that it's imperative to stack the deck and cast someone solely for the color of their skin. If this was a plan that they were taking, wouldn't they have done it with any of the other remakes that came out while Little Mermaid was stuck in its four years of development hell? Cause I still see a white Alice, a white Aurora, a white Belle, a white Cinderella

Ariel's sisters all being different races makes even less sense, but sure, whatever. Did Triton have seven different wives, then? I'm sorry, but that's just silly. As for the logic of why Ariel would need to be white, I counter with, why does she need to be black? If the racial aspect doesn't matter, then why bother? If you want to believe that the only reason they cast a black woman to play Ariel really was just because she was the absolute best singer and best actress, then you can believe that if you want, but I think we both know that wasn't the reason. As for the reason why they're only starting to do it now, I would chalk that up to the greater prevalence of identity politics in entertainment discourse right now. When Alice in Wonderland and Cinderella came out, this type of discourse wasn't as salient as it is today, and movie studios hadn't found a way to use manufactured outrage as a marketing tool the way they do now. As for Beauty and the Beast, they DID try to do it there, but with the fake "gay" background characters—they marketed that heavily, only for it to not even register in the movie, and they edit out what little you could see when they released it in China, showing how cynical they actually are about this stuff. The executives at Disney aren't stupid. They know very well that the live action remakes aren't critically well received, and nostalgia baiting only takes you so far with audiences for so long. Eventually, you have to mix it up a bit to lure audiences into the theater to see a movie they wouldn't otherwise see, and taking advantage of political outrage is a really effective way of doing that. They don't always resort to it of course—Lion King made a ton of money based purely on nostalgia points—but it is a common tactic.

As for the movie itself, I feel comfortable basing my expectations on the past lineup of live action remakes. So far, they've batted a fat zero in terms of quality, and absolutely nothing they've put out has led me to believe this movie will be any better. If it turns out to be amazing, I'll eat my words, but I think we both know that this is going to be like the other remakes—visually bland, filled with nostalgic callbacks, and almost narratively indistinguishable from the original. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being almost shot-for-shot like Beauty and the Beast and Lion King were.

 

[AegisXIII]

Idk maybe because my name is Arielle, maybe because I’m black, maybe because I’ve seen so many young black girls and POC happy to see an Ariel that looks like them…idk…

The point you are raising is critical for me to understand all of this. So let me ask you a question that I have been asking myself for a while now and maybe you can help me get my head around it:

In order to feel represented by a character, is it more important that this character looks like the viewer, or that they share a common narrative arc?

The Mulan example is a great one. It is a movie that deals with gender stereotype in a conservative society. Surely this movie means a lot for women, but shouldn't trans people and everyone who questioned their gender identity be able to relate as well? Aren't the character arcs and the themes as important (if not more) than the physical aspect of a character? That's why I still believe the movies from the renaissance era did a lot more for diversity than what people might think despite the lack of actual diversity in their characters.

 

[AR829038]

Idk maybe because my name is Arielle, maybe because I’m black, maybe because I’ve seen so many young black girls and POC happy to see an Ariel that looks like them…idk…

And I don't want to take that away from people like you or from other young black girls who gain a positive influence from seeing black female characters in media. I just think there are better examples of black female role models in Disney. If young girls gain positivity from seeing themselves in black Ariel, then godspeed, I hope they enjoy the movie and I hope they get a lot out of it. I just can't see it being a lasting influence because of the motivations that seem to be driving the movie itself. And I also don't want young black girls to feel like their role models are just hand-me-downs of originally white characters.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

The point you are raising is critical for me to understand all of this. So let me ask you a question that I have been asking myself for a while now and maybe you can help me get my head around it:

In order to feel represented by a character, is it more important that this character looks like the viewer, or that they share a common narrative arc?

The Mulan example is a great one. It is a movie that deals with gender stereotype in a conservative society. Surely this movie means a lot for women, but shouldn't trans people and everyone who questioned their gender identity be able to relate as well? Aren't the character arcs and the themes as important (if not more) than the physical aspect of a character? That's why I still believe the movies from the renaissance era did a lot more for diversity than what people might think despite the lack of actual diversity in their characters.

In a world in which people continue to be judged based solely on their skin, it's important for people to be visually represented as well as philosophically/ideologically/sociopolitically, etc.
The three year old girl pointing to the screen saying "she looks like me" isn't asking "do I have the same character arc."

For black children, it's important that they understand IMMEDIATELY that their skin is beautiful because it will be a point of contention for the rest of their life.

don't want to take that away from people like you or from other young black girls who gain a positive influence from seeing black female characters in media. I just think there are better examples of black female role models in Disney. If young girls gain positivity from seeing themselves in black Ariel, then godspeed, I hope they enjoy the movie and I hope they get a lot out of it. I just can't see it being a lasting influence because of the motivations that seem to be driving the movie itself. And I also don't want young black girls to feel like their role models are just hand-me-downs of originally white characters.

Tiana is a reinterpretation of the princess from the fairy tale, who is white in the storybook they show in the film to begin with. I love that character but even Disney knows they did her dirty by making her the first black princess (and remember, that was a little more than TEN YEARS AGO) and turning her into a frog for most of it.

Young black girls see this Ariel the same way they saw Brandy's Cinderella. They likely already loved a version of this character and now they're validated in their world of play-pretend because they see it in a new version.

If you want to believe that the only reason they cast a black woman to play Ariel really was just because she was the absolute best singer and best actress, then you can believe that if you want, but I think we both know that wasn't the reason.

I don't say shit if I don't believe it. Put words in my mouth again and watch what happens.

 

[AR829038]

Tiana is a reinterpretation of the princess from the fairy tale, who is white in the storybook they show in the film to begin with. I love that character but even Disney knows they did her dirty by making her the first black princess (and remember, that was a little more than TEN YEARS AGO) and turning her into a frog for most of it.

Young black girls see this Ariel the same way they saw Brandy's Cinderella. They likely already loved a version of this character and now they're validated in their world of play-pretend because they see it in a new version.

Well, even better. That's a perfect example of race-swapping that works. Tiana, for all intents and purposes, is an original character crafted out of a much less interesting white original. They took a standard ordinary princess character and turned her into a hard-working, charismatic, witty, charming protagonist that people still remember over a decade after the original movie came out! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. That's race-swapping done with a purpose in mind beyond just pandering. And it works.

I don't say shit if I don't believe it. Put words in my mouth again and watch what happens.

Alright, if you believe it, then you believe it. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. But I do stand by what I said. And I do think it's silly to believe that people at the top of a corporation as wealthy as Disney do anything for purely altruistic or artistic motives.

 

[BufferAqua]

Alright, if you believe it, then you believe it. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. But I do stand by what I said. And I do think it's silly to believe that people at the top of a corporation as wealthy as Disney do anything for purely altruistic or artistic motives.

Alright dude I'm going to drop some harsh truth here:

Writing a complete novel EVERY SINGLE POST to explain why "black Ariel bad" just says enough about your character. Like calm down dude, heard of less is more? You don't need to go on a multi-paragraph tangent repeating the same thing. Also, targeting people? Calling Chie "abusive" or some shit? That's in such poor taste. Not everyone is against you, they're just against your argument and the way you present it. I assume multiple people in this thread are part of the minority group and said their peace, but you want to constantly want to talk about how "Disney bad" as a way for black girls not to feel happy about a black Ariel. Again, says a lot about you.

Furthermore, Tiana isn't a good example. I love Tiana, she is my favorite Disney Princess. But she's a fucking frog for a majority of the movie. And she is the ONLY black Disney princess right now. Are you really going to tell us that we should settle for only Tiana? Do you understand that just *saying* how we shouldn't feel happy about a black Ariel and should settle for Tiana is going to make you look? Why can't we celebrate the small victories? Who cares about Disney's intent because black girls are still happy about a princess who looks like them? Who cares about Disney's true agenda even though we're all adults and the movie is for the young generation of people? They aren't going to care about that.

My cousin was bullied for being black. Like straight up. Was convinced her black skin is ugly and wanted to be like white Disney princesses instead. She once asked me how she could lighten her skin and that broke my damn heart to hear. She isn't interested in Tiana, but just knowing there's a movie out there with an iconic princess who looks like her gives me peace. I don't care what the intent was.

Edit: Just to add the reason why I'm coming off like this (and probably why other members here are being very blunt as well) is because we've had these same arguments multiple times on this website and it always consists of the same backwards reason.

 

[AR829038]

Alright dude I'm going to drop some harsh truth here:

Writing a complete novel EVERY SINGLE POST to explain why "black Ariel bad" just says enough about your character. Like calm down dude, heard of less is more? You don't need to go on a multi-paragraph tangent repeating the same thing. Also, targeting people? Calling Chie "abusive" or some shit? That's in such poor taste. Not everyone is against you, they're just against your argument and the way you present it. I assume multiple people in this thread are part of the minority group and said their peace, but you want to constantly want to talk about how "Disney bad" as a way for black girls not to feel happy about a black Ariel. Again, says a lot about you.

Furthermore, Tiana isn't a good example. I love Tiana, she is my favorite Disney Princess. But she's a fucking frog for a majority of the movie. And she is the ONLY black Disney princess right now. Are you really going to tell us that we should settle for only Tiana? Do you understand that just *saying* how we shouldn't feel happy about a black Ariel and should settle for Tiana is going to make you look? Why can't we celebrate the small victories? Who cares about Disney's intent because black girls are still happy about a princess who looks like them? Who cares about Disney's true agenda even though we're all adults and the movie is for the young generation of people? They aren't going to care about that.

My cousin was bullied for being black. Like straight up. Was convinced her black skin is ugly and wanted to be like white Disney princesses instead. She once asked me how she could lighten her skin and that broke my damn heart to hear. She isn't interested in Tiana, but just knowing there's a movie out there with an iconic princess who looks like her gives me peace. I don't care what the intent was.

Edit: Just to add the reason why I'm coming off like this (and probably why other members here are being very blunt as well) is because we've had these same arguments multiple times on this website and it always consists of the same backwards reason.

Alright, then piss off. Is that a short enough message for you, you anti-literate snob?

 

[Chie]

LMFAO

 

[BufferAqua]

Alright, then piss off. Is that a short enough message for you, you anti-literate snob?

Oh grow up. Now you're just being a child. Enjoy the ban, though.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Please explain to me what it is about Ariel?

I’m closing this topic because it’s every god damn time she’s brought up.

Facts: Disney sucks.
Facts: Disney could do better with representation.
Facts: Ariel being played by a black actress is monumental for young girls of color everywhere.

That is where the subject ends. It’s for children!