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A question regarding the Organization



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Awkward Squid

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Alright (checks) I'm sure this is in the right section.

I've been M.I.A. for a good while wanting to avoid spoilers and whatnot; and after watching the walkthrough there's a small thing I'd like to have cleared up.

KH's concept isn't necessarily difficult for me to understand (it's really just memorization of a LOT of information) and I don't know if I zoned out during this or what, but it's been repeatedly stated in the past Nobodies do not have hearts, yet in the cutscenes YX (or Xemnas; I can't remember which) explained that to some extent they do. If that's the case, then why were the remaining members of the organization (not including Xemnas, Xigbar, and maybe Saïx) under the impression that they had nothing? Wouldn't they be able to acknowledge that they could somehow feel something?

So did they grow news ones?
Or did they haves hearts all along?

*I'm also not including Axel and Roxas due to the 'special case' thing. This is more directed at the 'normal' members.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Alright (checks) I'm sure this is in the right section.

I've been M.I.A. for a good while wanting to avoid spoilers and whatnot; and after watching the walkthrough there's a small thing I'd like to have cleared up.

KH's concept isn't necessarily difficult for me to understand (it's really just memorization of a LOT of information) and I don't know if I zoned out during this or what, but it's been repeatedly stated in the past Nobodies do not have hearts, yet in the cutscenes YX (or Xemnas; I can't remember which) explained that to some extent they do. If that's the case, then why were the remaining members of the organization (not including Xemnas, Xigbar, and maybe Saïx) under the impression that they had nothing? Wouldn't they be able to acknowledge that they could somehow feel something?

So did they grow news ones?
Or did they haves hearts all along?

*I'm also not including Axel and Roxas due to the 'special case' thing. This is more directed at the 'normal' members.

That Nobodies have no hearts initially still stands true and that was all that was ever stated in KH until DDD.
It was stated in Days and KH2 that they have no hearts, but it was never confirmed that this status is permanent.
The original (deceptive) goal was that the Nobodies would get a heart through the Kingdom Hearts they were building, but that one had another, more sinister purpose which leads to the concealed truth.

What was concealed however (on purpose) by Xemnas and Xigbar was that Nobodies, as any other living beings, are capable of growing a new heart eventually when a) the right circumstances are met and b) the new "heart-bud" is nutured and formed into a true heart (that takes time).
No one except these two knew that, Ansem the Wise discovered it during his research on hearts while he was DiZ, but due to his hatred towards Nobodies he ignored what he found.

It isn't made clear if any of the other human-shaped Nobodies managed to develop a heart, confirmed are only Axel, Roxas, Xion and Naminé.
Xemnas did explain though that there were individual differences with each being.

It is however interesting to see that, whenever an Org member exhibited more "strongly" emotional behaviour that there was heavy scolding from Xemnas, Xigbar, Saix or Xaldin that they should stop acting because they have no feelings.
 

iLeen

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It is however interesting to see that, whenever an Org member exhibited more "strongly" emotional behaviour that there was heavy scolding from Xemnas, Xigbar, Saix or Xaldin that they should stop acting because they have no feelings.

That IS an interesting thought...I'm loving all these subtle hints that turns out later on into something meaningful.
 

king_mickey rule

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Wouldn't that mean that Lea has two hearts? His own and Axel's?

Same would go for Sora (with Roxas and Xion) and Kairi (with Naminé)? It's a bit of a weird concept to me actually. Kinda random imo.

It's a bit bothersome that this game introduces so many new concepts but doesn't fully explains it. It's kinda frustrating :p

I guess my question would be: What happens to the new-grown heart when the Nobody is destroyed?
 

iLeen

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Wouldn't that mean that Lea has two hearts? His own and Axel's?

Same would go for Sora (with Roxas and Xion) and Kairi (with Naminé)? It's a bit of a weird concept to me actually. Kinda random imo.

Maybe the hearts fuse as one? At least in Lea's case.

As for Sora, Roxas and Xion seem to be their own being (same goes for Kairi and Namine). They have different personalities as Sora/Kairi respectively, and they exist outisde of Sora/Kairi. As for Axel/Lea, those two never existed at the same time. First Lea existed, then Axel, then Lea again. Which is why Axel doesn't need saving, since he'll turn back into Lea and have the same personality/existence as Lea. Roxas, Xion and Namine, on the other hand, need saving because they've returned to their respective Somebodies but they are their own beings, so it's like trying to fuse two/three people together instead of two hearts together...sorry if this doesn't make sense. I can be all over the place in my explanations...lol.

But yeah, I did find it odd that Lea possibly had two hearts within him...so I'm just going to say it went all fusion-HA! on us.
 
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Wouldn't that mean that Lea has two hearts? His own and Axel's?

Same would go for Sora (with Roxas and Xion) and Kairi (with Naminé)? It's a bit of a weird concept to me actually. Kinda random imo.

It's a bit bothersome that this game introduces so many new concepts but doesn't fully explains it. It's kinda frustrating :p

I guess my question would be: What happens to the new-grown heart when the Nobody is destroyed?

In Axel/Lea's case, IDK. For Namine, Roxas, and Xion, it has been stated that they are individual being that exist even though they are Nobodies and a Replica so they have there own hearts. They have there own memories. They aren't Sora and Kairi, they are Namine, Roxas, and Xion. Axel on the other hand is Lea. Its kinda confusing, but the best way to explain it would be that Roxas and Xion don't have memories of being there original selves (then again Xion is a Replica so she wouldn't). Its never been explained or mentioned if Namine remembers being Kairi although she apparently knows she is Kairi's Nobody. I don't know.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Wouldn't that mean that Lea has two hearts? His own and Axel's?

Same would go for Sora (with Roxas and Xion) and Kairi (with Naminé)? It's a bit of a weird concept to me actually. Kinda random imo.

It's a bit bothersome that this game introduces so many new concepts but doesn't fully explains it. It's kinda frustrating :p

I guess my question would be: What happens to the new-grown heart when the Nobody is destroyed?

Not really, as "Axel" had the same consciousness and mind as "Lea", Axel's new heart (it wasn't said if it was really fully developed) was absorbed into Lea's once it came back, that's why Lea has Axel's memories as his own and has dreams about Roxas.

Sora actually has four hearts inside him, his own, Xion's, Roxas' and Ventus'. With these, Ventus aside because of obvious reasons, it is vastly different as with Axel or any of the "normal" Nobodies because Xion and Roxas have their own consciousnesses and minds, they co-existed with Sora and developed their own identities and personalities.
I suggest you closely follow the scene between Roxas and Sora, it shows pretty much why Sora is so special in this regard and also pay very much attention to the explanations Ansem the Wise gives to Riku at the end. They're highly important and help one gain a better understanding on how the whole process works.

Like I said, those Nobodies who did grow a new heart (we don't know if every human-shaped one really did) and get revived as their original persons unite those hearts into one, with Roxas, Xion and Naminé being the only exceptions, their hearts are inside Sora/Kairi, but they're still "independent" as own hearts because their minds and consciousnesses are separate.
 

iLeen

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Not really, as "Axel" had the same consciousness and mind as "Lea", Axel's new heart (it wasn't said if it was really fully developed) was absorbed into Lea's once it came back, that's why Lea has Axel's memories as his own and has dreams about Roxas.

Sora actually has four hearts inside him, his own, Xion's, Roxas' and Ventus'. With these, Ventus aside because of obvious reasons, it is vastly different as with Axel or any of the "normal" Nobodies because Xion and Roxas have their own consciousnesses and minds, they co-existed with Sora and developed their own identities and personalities.
I suggest you closely follow the scene between Roxas and Sora, it shows pretty much why Sora is so special in this regard and also pay very much attention to the explanations Ansem the Wise gives to Riku at the end. They're highly important and help one gain a better understanding on how the whole process works.

Like I said, those Nobodies who did grow a new heart (we don't know if every human-shaped one really did) and get revived as their original persons unite those hearts into one, with Roxas, Xion and Naminé being the only exceptions, their hearts are inside Sora/Kairi, but they're still "independent" as own hearts because their minds and consciousnesses are separate.

Sephiroth comes in to save the day! Your explanations are always clear and precise. I'll just let you handle explaining things from now onXD
 

king_mickey rule

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Not really, as "Axel" had the same consciousness and mind as "Lea", Axel's new heart (it wasn't said if it was really fully developed) was absorbed into Lea's once it came back, that's why Lea has Axel's memories as his own and has dreams about Roxas.

Sora actually has four hearts inside him, his own, Xion's, Roxas' and Ventus'. With these, Ventus aside because of obvious reasons, it is vastly different as with Axel or any of the "normal" Nobodies because Xion and Roxas have their own consciousnesses and minds, they co-existed with Sora and developed their own identities and personalities.
I suggest you closely follow the scene between Roxas and Sora, it shows pretty much why Sora is so special in this regard and also pay very much attention to the explanations Ansem the Wise gives to Riku at the end. They're highly important and help one gain a better understanding on how the whole process works.

Like I said, those Nobodies who did grow a new heart (we don't know if every human-shaped one really did) and get revived as their original persons unite those hearts into one, with Roxas, Xion and Naminé being the only exceptions, their hearts are inside Sora/Kairi, but they're still "independent" as own hearts because their minds and consciousnesses are separate.

Thanks! That really made me understand the whole situation.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Sephiroth comes in to save the day! Your explanations are always clear and precise. I'll just let you handle explaining things from now onXD

Well thank you, I try to be as clear as possible when I've time, although my posts tend to become long because of that, lol.

Thanks! That really made me understand the whole situation.

You're welcome.

If I may intrude on this, has there been any mention of Marluxia and Larxene's true selves, or Luxord's for that matter?

Nope, not a single word about them directly. I have not finished the game yet, but as of now they don't even have an entry in the character-compendium unlocked.
The other Organisation members were also only mentioned in passing by Xemnas without actually saying their names when he rambled about which ones were all failures to become Xehanort slaves because of various reasons aka traitors (implies Larxene and Marluxia), those who were too independent and strong-willed (implies Roxas and Axel) or those who were simply too weak to be of use (implies Demyx and maybe Vexen).
 

Memory Master

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Just to add to the nuturing heart aspect of this. One reason Xemnas told them they would get new hearts when the artificial KH is complete, is because he wanted the members to focus their attention on his goals and plans, in order to keep them from developing their own unique personalities. Basically by lying to them and keeping their attention on his plans, Xemnas was nuturing their heart buds to be more like him, instead of the organization members nuturing the heart buds with their own unique personalities. This would make it much easier for Xehanort to take them over when the time came.

In the end Xemnas was going to merge with the artificial KH, then hook each member to it, and using it's power place the same heart and mind, that being the heart and mind of Xehanort of course, inside each member. Using the power of the artificial KH to do this would cut out the long time period it would normally take for his heart fragments to take over each member, and also weaken the member's resitance to Xehanort's control.
 

flurryflames

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Just to add to the nuturing heart aspect of this. One reason Xemnas told them they would get new hearts when the artificial KH is complete, is because he wanted the members to focus their attention on his goals and plans, in order to keep them from developing their own unique personalities. Basically by lying to them and keeping their attention on his plans, Xemnas was nuturing their heart buds to be more like him, instead of the organization members nuturing the heart buds with their own unique personalities. This would make it much easier for Xehanort to take them over when the time came.

In the end Xemnas was going to merge with the artificial KH, then hook each member to it, and using it's power place the same heart and mind, that being the heart and mind of Xehanort of course, inside each member. Using the power of the artificial KH to do this would cut out the long time period it would normally take for his heart fragments to take over each member, and also weaken the member's resitance to Xehanort's control.

Where is second paragraph part from? I don't remember it.

As for the heart thing I believe they might of have developed their own heart when they each died. It just seem that way in some of the death scenes. The shocks, yells etc. Now with the heart budding thing it could of been easily began developing during their time in the organization. In one of the scenes which was in KH 2 FM Demyx is a prime suspect when he was acting upon emotions and then got shot down for it by Xenmas and Xigbar. So he may of believed he really had a heart. He was pretty upset when he lost his sitar. Actually an interesting thing has come up with the soul weapon. Perhaps their heart could been in their weapon, but that is grasping for straws unless you count Axel's chakrams exploding, Demyx's sitar disappeared, and Luxord's cards getitng sliced in half. They faded shortly afterwards. I came up with the weapon prospect since they easily can summon them upon will,( kind of like Sora can summon the keyblade which connects his heart with it? MX can extract hearts with his keyblade and split his heart with others to make as vesssels) and the heart may of been trapped there. Perhaps Xenmas may of placed the Xeohanort seed in it so they wouldn't be able to feel it inside them. Perhaps the heart could travel around the vessel and then the object. When they summoned weapons it seem like a key part of who they were as a individual and connection. A part of them maybe that didn't develop until later on. This wouldn't surprised me.

They all could of been shortly collected in a matter of days. As it seems conventiently some of them reawaken at the lab though some of them were elsewhere. Makes you wonder that the others that were defeated eariler could not reawaken until the rest were all defeated. Was it coincidence or part of Xenmas's or Xeohanort plan to see who was still compatible for the vessel of Xeohanort?

I believe that Xaldin may of been aware of this plan as well since he and Xigbar sought out to find more members. Plus Dilan and Even's status bring unstable may suggest this. Could they be runners up for the new organization? I am pretty sure of it.

The interesting thing Xenmas may be able to use them since we have no clue of where they got their powers from or elements. In KH 2 one of the boss battles it showed him using the defeated members weapons on Sora. So I am thinking he could use that special ability as well and create more clones that could obey him.
 
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