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All the Children Sacrificed in the Name of Your Research



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darknessofheart

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This line from Xehanort's heartless in the last trailer to me is the darkest moment because of its implications. Ansem the Wise's initial experiments prior to KH1 are very vague and seemed to imply that Xehanort was the sole test subject before he took the research into his own hands, but this line implies they were much more unethical (he did have hearts floating in containers in his study).

Do you believe this line is implying children were among the test subjects in Ansem and/or Xehanort's experiments or simply referring to what Ansem made Roxas, Namine, and others go through? It seems that Xehanort's heartless is doing what Xemnas did to Ansem at the end of KHII; putting all his crimes and misdeeds on his former mentor. So, it might be it was Xehanort's doing and he is simply placing the blame on Ansem for starting the research to begin with.

It's apparent at this point that Xehanort and Braig had intended the whole time to use Ansem's research and apprentices to further their own goals, but I wonder how much damage Ansem truly did initially. He was always in that anithero role, but this would take it to another level.
 

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Well I don't think it is Roxas/Namine/Xion because it's not like those kids were not also treated like shit by the organization. Not saying Ansem the Wise treated any of them well but I don't think they qualified for the statement.

It's probably Isa/Lea and maybe Riku/Sora if you stretch the statement.
 

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I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if there were child test subjects. Ansem seemed to have no problem with killing Naminé in cold blood after Sora was restored. Not to mention he had every intention of using Sora in the same was the Organization used Sora. And as Divine Past mentioned Isa and Lea were most likely used as test subjects when they became Nobodies themselves likely as a consequence of being caught inside the castle after successfully sneaking in.
 

Sephiroth0812

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This line from Xehanort's heartless in the last trailer to me is the darkest moment because of its implications. Ansem the Wise's initial experiments prior to KH1 are very vague and seemed to imply that Xehanort was the sole test subject before he took the research into his own hands, but this line implies they were much more unethical (he did have hearts floating in containers in his study).

Do you believe this line is implying children were among the test subjects in Ansem and/or Xehanort's experiments or simply referring to what Ansem made Roxas, Namine, and others go through? It seems that Xehanort's heartless is doing what Xemnas did to Ansem at the end of KHII; putting all his crimes and misdeeds on his former mentor. So, it might be it was Xehanort's doing and he is simply placing the blame on Ansem for starting the research to begin with.

It's apparent at this point that Xehanort and Braig had intended the whole time to use Ansem's research and apprentices to further their own goals, but I wonder how much damage Ansem truly did initially. He was always in that anithero role, but this would take it to another level.

There is some bitter irony to the fact that this "calling out" on Ansem the Wise comes exactly from the guy who did the same and then on top several times worse by a wide margin and is still doing it during KH III itself.

It is true we do not know the true extent the experiments reached before Ansem the Wise's consciousness kicked in and he forbade any further research.
The secret laboratory for the heart research was constructed by Ansem the Wise under the suggestion of Ienzo, so he is at least responsible for that (possible) torture chamber to exist in the first place.

It started out as a psychological experiment with Xehanort as a willing test subject and it is not out of the question that Ansem the Wise did do some more experiments down the line with possibly more willing participants who just wanted to help their beloved ruler while Xehanort, Braig & co. were already doing nasty stuff with non-willing subjects behind his back or doing things with the volunteers Ansem himself didn't think of.
It is not totally impossible that quite a bunch of children or teenagers were among those since in the KH series there seems to be an abundancy of them in all the worlds anyways.
The keyblade wielders in Union X seem to be all either mid-teens like Ephemer or Skuld or even actual children like Ventus (who is 10 or 11 in UX).
Among the Foretellers Ava and Gula are also very young compared to the others and Luxu doesn't look like a full adult either.

Not to mention that children are said to have the purest hearts with the least amount of Darkness and the KH 1 reports do mention something in this regard:
Ansem Report 2 said:
I shall conduct the following experiments:
  • Extract the darkness from a person's heart.
  • Cultivate darkness in a pure heart.
  • Both suppress and amplify the darkness within.

Especially the second experiment sounds like something that can be done exceptionally well with children because they still have a largely pure heart.
Theoretically you can even do all three experiments with a single heart if you mix up the order:
First cultivate darkness in a pure heart, then both suppress and amplify it using various means and then finally extract the darkness you have cultivated and played with beforehand.

It sounds massively like what Xehanort is world champion in and has been doing since before BBS (as we know due to how he used Ventus) and is still doing when we look at Days, DDD and now KH III.

And yet it is not impossible that Ansem the Wise took part in some of these dealings himself for at least a short time.
In the KH II reports Ansem admits that after the psychological tests with Xehanort things quickly snowballed and while he might not have intended any harm he may still blame himself for not having stopped things fast enough.
Note how Ansem SoD says "all the children sacrificed in the name of your research" which may imply that it wasn't Ansem himself who sacrificed children but is guilty by association since a) he enabled the means to do so and b) didn't stop it right away.


It is clear since Blank Points that Ansem the Wise feels very guilty about everything he did and also the things he enabled without actually wanting them to happen.
He says to Aqua in Blank Points:
Ansem the Wise said:
I did terrible
things...both to him and his friends. I brought unhappiness to more lives than
one....

he could open the right door, and save all those people whose
lives I managed to ruin.

Roxas and Naminé are definitely a big part of this as are Sora and Riku, they're the closest to us because we know their names and appearances, yet all victims being acknowledged certainly won't hurt and could only help a possible redemption arc Ansem the Wise might get over the course of KH III.

This gets further elaborated upon in DDD when the Data-backup of Ansem talks with Riku:
Ansem the Wise said:
Perhaps I wanted to atone for events of the past, even if
no apology can undo the harm I have wrought.

So in conclusion, even if Ansem SoD is objectively worse than him Ansem is so guiltridden that he takes all the blame despite how far and deep his actual personal involvement in the unethical experiments which included child sacrifices was.

His words in DDD also imply that he doesn't even want or expects to be forgiven by his victims, he only wants to atone and mend as much of the damage as he can within the possibilities he has.


Well I don't think it is Roxas/Namine/Xion because it's not like those kids were not also treated like shit by the organization. Not saying Ansem the Wise treated any of them well but I don't think they qualified for the statement.

It's probably Isa/Lea and maybe Riku/Sora if you stretch the statement.

What has that to do with it?
Roxas, Naminé and Xion were treated like shit by both sides and abused, yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still among those who count as victims of Ansem the Wise, he even outright says so in Blank Points.

Roxas was literally sacrificed by Ansem to kick off his revenge plans. That they resulted in Sora waking up was only a convenient side effect for Ansem since he intended to use Sora as a tool to complete his revenge just like Marluxia intended to use him against the Organisation for a coup.
Naminé and Riku went along with the whole thing indeed for Sora's sake, yet they at least feel bad about the whole issue from the start.
He also ordered Naminé exterminated simply because he believed she's "not supposed to exist".

I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if there were child test subjects. Ansem seemed to have no problem with killing Naminé in cold blood after Sora was restored. Not to mention he had every intention of using Sora in the same was the Organization used Sora. And as Divine Past mentioned Isa and Lea were most likely used as test subjects when they became Nobodies themselves likely as a consequence of being caught inside the castle after successfully sneaking in.

Correct. During Days and for a long time in KH 2 the actions DiZ promotes and takes are objectively no better than what the Organisation is doing.
While the Org may be overall more dangerous and a threat on a more universal level it doesn't make DiZ's actions any less despicable.
The prospect of using Sora to pursue his own revenge plans was his primary motivation to help restore him in the first place and he used Riku's devotion to Sora as well as Naminé's feelings of guilt of what she did in Castle Oblivion to coerce them into doing further bad things down the road.

Like said, there being children used in the experiments is very probable simply because the majority of characters in the KH verse seem to be children and they have a certain type of heart (still largely pure) which is a good starting point for heart experiments.
 

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Do we know definitely that Ansem's experiments were how Isa and Lea lost their hearts, or is this just a widely accepted theory?
 

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Do we know definitely that Ansem's experiments were how Isa and Lea lost their hearts, or is this just a widely accepted theory?

While I wouldn't say we know with 100% certainty, I think there is a good amount of evidence to support it. In DDD, Lea knew Xehanort by name, meaning he knew of Xemnas' original self, which I think implies he at least knew him in some capacity before becoming a nobody. Both Lea and Isa were restored in the same location as the apprentices, confirming they were in the lab when they lost their hearts, and they both seemingly wore organization coats before becoming nobodies, coats that were developed from Xehanort's sleeping memories.

I think it's reasonable to believe that they were caught while trying to sneak in the castle, as they were in BB, but rather than being thrown out, they were used in the experiments, either through an enticing offer that covered the true objective of the experiments or against their wills. Both Axel and Saix were planning to seize control of the organization at one point, which ultimately never came to fruition due to Saix changing from Xehanort's splintered heart influencing him and Axel forming a friendship with Roxas and Xion, but you could tell they did not truly trust Xemnas.
 
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"What's worse is, you STILL haven't apologized to Namine, you jerkface!"
 

Xblade13

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Something bugs me whenever I hear the word "children" in that sentence. It seems to imply that many were sacrificed. And the thought of which children they may have been is even more chilling. Because the only large group of children who we know of in the series are the main character cast and the Dandelions from UX.

What if Ansem the Wise discovered the Dandelions, and used them in those experiments to originally create the Heartless? It might explain the other unused pods in the Twilight Town mansion, but also connect the UX stuff a bit better.

Just a crackpot idea that hit me. XD
 

*TwilightNight*

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It's odd that the scene alludes to Naminè. That's her "room" (well, gilded cage to be precise).

What is he really doing there?
 

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It's odd that the scene alludes to Naminè. That's her "room" (well, gilded cage to be precise).

What is he really doing there?

I think that might be the closest thing he has to a home at this point. He seems too ashamed to return to Radiant Garden until he atones for his mistakes. So I think it would the next, natural place for him to go to once he escapes the Realm of Darkness again. All his current research is also there, so he might be heading back to pick up the pieces and help Sora and company.

This might also explain why Xehanort's heartless and Xemnas are there as well. It might not solely be because they were following Sora, but to collect Ansem's research and because they know he is still alive and need to remove him as a threat, hoping that he shows up there. After what he did to Xemnas' artificial Kingdom Hearts, I think they realize how much damage he can cause to their goals.
 
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LostArtist

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I think that might be the closest thing he has to a home at this point. He seems too ashamed to return to Radiant Garden until he atones for his mistakes. So I think it would the next, natural place for him to go to once he escapes the Realm of Darkness again. All his current research is also there, so he might be heading back to pick up the pieces and help Sora and company.

This might also explain why Xehanort's heartless and Xemnas are there as well. It might not solely be because they were following Sora, but to collect Ansem's research and because they know he is still alive and need to remove him as a threat, hoping that he shows up there. After what he did to Xemnas' artificial Kingdom Hearts, I think they realize how much damage he can cause to their goals.

I feel like he's following the organization around.
oHURoz7.png
 

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Something bugs me whenever I hear the word "children" in that sentence. It seems to imply that many were sacrificed. And the thought of which children they may have been is even more chilling. Because the only large group of children who we know of in the series are the main character cast and the Dandelions from UX.

What if Ansem the Wise discovered the Dandelions, and used them in those experiments to originally create the Heartless? It might explain the other unused pods in the Twilight Town mansion, but also connect the UX stuff a bit better.

Just a crackpot idea that hit me. XD

Pretty certain if Ansem SoD wasn't referring to the children we already know of, it would have been the children that lived in the slums of Radiant Garden.

We know from the Apprentices that RG had an unseen, seedy underbelly of crime within it. Ienzo's parents were murdered. Braig is a particularly ruthless sort of person for living in a world that is called the "capital of light". Ansem the Wise has very powerful guards for his castle, too. Ansem the Wise also feared that the Darkness was slowly taking hold of his world, which started the research into it in the first place.

From these facts alone, it isn't hard to draw conclusions.

Ansem the Wise has not always been remorseful and actively used Riku, Namine, Roxas, Sora, and countless other children for both his own gain and for what he saw as the greater good. It's not hard to believe that he would have used slum kids for his tests with the belief he was doing it for the greater good of his world.

The only inconsistency in this theory is Secret Ansem Report #2:

"Unbenknowst to me, my six apprentices then began collecting a huge number of subjects on which to perform dangerous experiments into "the darkness of the heart." As soon as I found out, I called all my apprentices together and ordered them not only to cease their studies, but to destroy the results of their research thus far."

This implies that he was unaware of his apprentices using people for their experiments...but now I wonder if it was the fact that it was a large number of subjects that caused Ansem to order them to shut their research down and not the fact that they were even gathering subjects.
 
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Sephiroth0812

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Something bugs me whenever I hear the word "children" in that sentence. It seems to imply that many were sacrificed. And the thought of which children they may have been is even more chilling. Because the only large group of children who we know of in the series are the main character cast and the Dandelions from UX.

What if Ansem the Wise discovered the Dandelions, and used them in those experiments to originally create the Heartless? It might explain the other unused pods in the Twilight Town mansion, but also connect the UX stuff a bit better.

Just a crackpot idea that hit me. XD

Like I said before, it seems to be a general rule of thumb in the KH series at least for original worlds that they're inhabited by vast amounts of children. While you see some adults like i.e. in Twilight Town or a few elderly like Kairi's grandma, children and teenagers seem to be always in the majority.

The possibility that the Dandelions were discovered and some if not all of them (except Ventus, Marluxia and Larxene) were used for experiments is of course also on the floor.
If it was specifically Ansem the Wise though who initiated it or Xehanort and the apprentices using the resources provided by AtW is a small but noticeable difference though.
Nonetheless in his current remorseful stance AtW would of course also direct the blame to himself either way because his disregard of ethics and providing the groundwork for such things still stands.

This however fits into the outright perfidious (but clever) way Xehanort's manipulations can work besides the three obvious modi "lure people with false promises then double-cross them", "forcefully suppress their will and control them" and "pick people who already are ruthless/evil to an extent and pretend to make them equal partners".
By goading people who normally have a moral compass and may have genuinely well-meaning intentions into doing something horrible he gets leverage over them by preying on the guilt they will obviously feel after those deeds are done and then provide the "only way out" by serving him.

I think that might be the closest thing he has to a home at this point. He seems too ashamed to return to Radiant Garden until he atones for his mistakes. So I think it would the next, natural place for him to go to once he escapes the Realm of Darkness again. All his current research is also there, so he might be heading back to pick up the pieces and help Sora and company.

This might also explain why Xehanort's heartless and Xemnas are there as well. It might not solely be because they were following Sora, but to collect Ansem's research and because they know he is still alive and need to remove him as a threat, hoping that he shows up there. After what he did to Xemnas' artificial Kingdom Hearts, I think they realize how much damage he can cause to their goals.

That's definitely a highly probable scenario, also since Ansem seems to not even seek any form of forgiveness it is possible he might not even want to take on a position of authority ever again.
His research results were hidden in Sora's heart though and Riku currently has them so I doubt that Ansem is heading to the mansion to fetch something along those lines.
Still, him heading there to do something to help Sora & co. is highly probable, even if it amounts only to distracting Ansem SoD & co. to buy time or to prevent the seekers from using his research for bad purposes again.

Pretty certain if Ansem SoD wasn't referring to the children we already know of, it would have been the children that lived in the slums of Radiant Garden.

We know from the Apprentices that RG had an unseen, seedy underbelly of crime within it. Ienzo's parents were murdered. Braig is a particularly ruthless sort of person for living in a world that is called the "capital of light". Ansem the Wise has very powerful guards for his castle, too. Ansem the Wise also feared that the Darkness was slowly taking hold of his world, which started the research into it in the first place.

From these facts alone, it isn't hard to draw conclusions.

Ansem the Wise has not always been remorseful and actively used Riku, Namine, Roxas, Sora, and countless other children for both his own gain and for what he saw as the greater good. It's not hard to believe that he would have used slum kids for his tests with the belief he was doing it for the greater good of his world.

The only inconsistency in this theory is Secret Ansem Report #2:

"Unbenknowst to me, my six apprentices then began collecting a huge number of subjects on which to perform dangerous experiments into "the darkness of the heart." As soon as I found out, I called all my apprentices together and ordered them not only to cease their studies, but to destroy the results of their research thus far."

This implies that he was unaware of his apprentices using people for their experiments...but now I wonder if it was the fact that it was a large number of subjects that caused Ansem to order them to shut their research down and not the fact that they were even gathering subjects.

So far we have always had only the opportunity to visit small parts of Radiant Garden in BBS and KH 2 (and the ruined castle in KH 1) but wide shots have always shown the world and city to be much bigger so there being a district that's more shady or housing the "lower class" isn't out of the question.
You know, pointing this out suddenly gave me the chilling mental image of Braig, Dilan and Aeleus raiding an orphanage to "collect" kids as subjects for Ienzo, Even and Xehanort to experiment on.
Heck, they might even have lured some poor souls with the promise of food or something.

As I pointed out in my last post, it is possible that Ansem himself did some more experiments on a few voluntary subjects that weren't Xehanort. These might have been also psychological tests though and what drove Ansem to order the apprentices to stop wasn't the fact of the gathered subjects themselves or their number but the things his apprentices were actually doing to them.

In KH II Xemnas does say that he and the apprentices went farther with the experiments than Ansem ever dared to try which would support this reading.

---

On a side excursion on the general issue of sacrificed children, let's remember the "machine" that can "artificially" produce Heartless that was created by Xehanort & co., the Heartless Manufactory.

We actually get to see this thing in KH 2:
24pm79h.jpg


Note all those pods on the walls that when the manufactory is active display a heart?
A captive heart I would assume. Those could possibly be hearts from some of the people used in the experiments.
Now how is a Heartless created? Either a heart being consumed by another Heartless or by having it succumb/surrender to its own darkness.

Now add the concept of data and copying stuff and mix the whole concept of the Realm of Sleep with always looping dreams into it as well and I think we get a glimpse on how the "machine" that is the Heartless Manufactory works in general.

The captive hearts there are trapped in an endless looping dream (or better say nightmare) that causes them to succumb to darkness and turn into a Heartless.
This Heartless is then copied, branded with the Heartless emblem and materialized via the machine in the real world.
What these dreams are made of? Most likely of whatever stuff the apprentices did to those hearts during the initial experiments or some other horrible memories.
In DDD we see with Sora how trippy and dangerous these dreams can be to an unprotected heart.

This whole process is repeated over and over with every captive heart hooked up in the alcoves we can see as long as the machine is active.

I dunno how much specifically Ansem the Wise may know about it and it is true that Xehanort built this thing, yet it were resources provided by Ansem the Wise which allowed its construction in the first place.
 

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I personally believe there's some hideous meaning regarding that particular sentence. Something we haven't discovered yet. What if the pods in Twilight Town Mansion were used for experiments on children? After all, in Kingdom Hearts 2 they have been confirmed to have been used before. This has been stated before, I just wanted to reinforce it.
 
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