{%}|<~Club for Clubbing Xion with a Club Club~>|{%}

[Zul]

Zuguu what about the xion hateclub
Zuguu don't touch my old hangout spot
Zuguu no, stahp
Zuguu stay avay stahff
Taochan *touch*
Zuguu NO
Zuguu THATS NAUGHTY
Taochan *stroke*
Zuguu STAAAAHP
Taochan no

. .

 

[Taochan]

hello ..

 

[Zul]

She's HERE!


She's found me!

No..no taochan! W-what are you doing. Get back, stay back!

No-NOOOOO-

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Hello~ <333

This place really is nostalgic, isn't it! I am always so happy to see activity here, though, haha. Especially with how annoying Tumblr is about Days. It seems like it's practically taboo to dislike that game over there -___-

Tumblr can suck it. Though I haven't made an opinion on anything KH.

Things have changed in KHInsider too. The fanclubs aren't as active as they used to be, for one. And I wish I was still into KH as I was before. The direction it has taken and the bull that we are supposed to continually buy and live with has genuinely turned me off from continuing it any further. I only care to see how the characters end up.

Maybe in the future, it can get out of the mess it created and all the unneeded additions and complexities.

Unlike SRK (No one denies the fact that Riku and Kairi are closer to Sora than they are to each other), I feel like People treat RAX like they are the bestest of friends who love each other equally.

I think it's because the series is painting it as this "perfect" friendship when it's really not, lol. And of course, people who fall for cheesy ice cream scenes and are weak-hearted with all the forced tragedy tend to ignore it.

RAX is worse off than SRK.

Riku and Kairi are just kind of awkward in that they're not as close as they are to Sora. They're much nicer to each other as well. But RAX?

All Roxas cared about was what Xion was doing every second. That was basically his designated role in a game that was promoted to be his. Axel's main priority was to keep Roxas safe, even if Xion had to be a sacrifice (he didn't like doing so, yet he didn't stop it either). It's not balanced in any sense of the word, and I can't fathom why people believe it is. Actions speak louder than texts. They keep commenting on this connection in words that isn't fully there physically. It's better to keep the reunion as Axel/Roxas and Roxas/Xion because that's what it technically amounts to.

 

[Goldpanner]

*TN* and Zul in here too??? What is this nostalgia????

Hey guys! How's it been?

 

[Organization_42]

OMG *TWILIGHTNIGHT*!!!!!!!
Hi! ​

Things have changed in KHInsider too. The fanclubs aren't as active as they used to be, for one. And I wish I was still into KH as I was before. The direction it has taken and the bull that we are supposed to continually buy and live with has genuinely turned me off from continuing it any further. I only care to see how the characters end up.

Maybe in the future, it can get out of the mess it created and all the unneeded additions and complexities.

I still like it, even though I thought Master Xehanort's time-travel plan was pretty ridiculous. Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Yen Sid trying to suggest that this guy knew, back in KH1, that he should time-travel to Destiny Islands so that he would be at the right place when two boys, who didn't wield Keyblades yet, would take their Mark of Master exam two years later in the Realm of Sleep?? Even though Yen Sid said this wasn't a normal way to give the exam? NO. Nobody is that cunning! Nobody is that smart! He was clever in BBS; he was downright psychic in DDD. But I did like the twist about the Nobodies. It explained how they could react to things with emotion without ret-conning everything we knew about them. If the twist had been that Nobodies always had hearts, I would've been mad, but this was okay. And it makes for good fanfic fuel.

Guys, I feel like such a horrible hypocrite. I really want the girls in the trios to get more screentime and it bugs me how Kairi and Aqua are often overshadowed by the Amazing Epic Friendships of Sora/Riku and Terra/Ven- well, not Aqua so much, but MX's entire plan rested on Terra and Ven's bromance. But when it comes to RAX...ehhhhhhh. This is the ONE instance where I DO want the girl to get overshadowed, at least at first. If it was Namine or Demyx I wouldn't feel that way, but I really just want Lea and Roxas to reunite first and then reunite with Xion. With every other group of characters, I think, "Square, pay attention to the ladies too!" but when with RAX, it's "No! Stick to the bromance!" Ugh.

Hello Everyone I know I'm pretty late to the party, but I actually used to lurk this forum around the time 358/2 Days came out because the game was such a disappointment and at the time I was surrounded by people who were gushing over this this game -__-

I'll be perfectly honest when I say I wouldn't hate her character if she didn't take away the spotlight from Roxas, didn't take away potential time to develop the rest of the Organization XIII members, and if she didn't cheapen Roxas' and Axel's friendship.

WELCOME, MAXAPPL3Z!​

It sounds like you'll fit in just fine here!

Replies:

Spoiler Show

Happy New Year to you too!! I hope you guys all had a good holiday!
If we did do this it would be even cooler because I RARELY see KH fanfictions or anything of the like that aren't AU. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE well-written AU and read it all the time...but there's never fanfiction of the Organization in-game, even rarer without Xion -_-

(Oh no, it has been a REALLY long time since I posted here. Gah!)

Yeah, Org fanfiction that doesn't involve Xion has become rarer and rarer. I don't mind them as long as she's written well, but I do prefer fanfics with RAD or the rest of the Org. I like writing AUs that aren't radically different from the canon, but are more like this idea, where one change makes everything different- "What if THIS happened instead?" kind of AUs.

As soon as people find out I'm an AkuRoku/Organization fangirl all my arguments become invalid -_-
Her bland personality and Mary-Sueish behavior (and more importantly the OOC-ness of the other characters) are huge reasons I don't like her. But I do hate that she came between Axel and Roxas, but not in the shallow way they think. It's not the fact that she came between a fictional pairing, but, as you said, that I was SO eager to see Axel and Roxas' friendship grow and develop. That's what made me so eager to get the game, that I would find out how they got so close that Axel, the biggest douche (well, second biggest douche) in Chain of Memories, would risk his life to save Roxas.

But...that never happened, and I could never understand why Axel was so intent on risking his life for a kid that only cared about Xion and could care less about him. People can argue that Roxas did care about Axel just as much as Xion...but...I really didn't see it. The whole friendship trio felt forced.

Well OF COURSE you're an AkuRoku fangirl, NocturnalMelody! You're a Xion hater, and we all know that the only people who hate Xion are AkuRoku fangirls! Even the haters that claim to be guys, not girls! Even the haters that don't ship anyone with anything! THE INTERNET SAID SO.

I think Days is a good example of why it can be really hard to write a prequel to something, because the writer needs to take his/her characters back to where they were before they had some character development and it needs to be believable. Goldpanner said once that everyone acts the way they did towards the end of KH2, and I think there's a lot of truth to that. Axel is willing to risk his existence for his friends even though he struggled with that in KH2. Riku understands that even though Xion is a part of Sora, she has developed her own personality and memories and so he is gentle with her about letting it all go- and had no such reservations with Roxas. Revenge-obsessed DiZ doesn't really seem to care about when Sora wakes up as long as he eventually does.

At least when Axel had his dramatic personality shift in KH2, we could at least say to ourselves, "Well, there was a year-long gap in between CoM and KH2, so there was time for him to change through his friendship with Roxas." In Days, he's a little apathetic and reluctant to train Roxas at first, but that changes really fast with not much explanation except that Castle Oblivion changed him. I've noticed that from KH2 onwards, Kingdom Hearts has problems with the "show, don't tell" rule. We're told in KH2 that Axel had this amazing friendship with Roxas but we never get to see what he was missing so badly. In Days, we're told constantly that Axel changed, but no drastic difference shows itself. We're told in BBS that TAV is this amazing inseparable trio and then they spend most of the game apart. And so on and so forth. I just wish this didn't happen so much, especially when video games are a visual medium, so it's possible to show a character's emotions or thoughts without words.

At least if the game isn't going to give the Organization development, Shiro Amano will. He really likes the Organization, you can tell by the way he adds his own take on everything and gives them extra scenes! His portrayal of Dem makes me so happy ^^ I was laughing so hard during the Olympus coliseum part too!!

OH THAT BEAUTIFUL COLISEUM MISSION!!!! <3<3<3 I finally read it and it was hilarious! And then I saw this and squee'd:

Spoiler Show

Awwww, he offers to work harder on the mission so Roxas can get his vacation with Axel and Xion! RAD WHY AREN'T YOU CANON???

If there's something I have to critisize about Shiro Amano's take on 358/2, it's Roxas' portrayal. There are times when I think he's absolutely adorable, and there are times when I think he's TOO adorable...like...I dunno, I always got the feeling that Roxas was more quick-tempered and sarcastic. And if that was simply his personality after he was 'betrayed' by Axel, I thought he'd be more quiet and thoughtful but funny when hanging out with his friends, like he was in the KH II prologue. Instead, he was ALWAYS bubbly and energetic, a little too much like Sora ^^;; While cute, I had hoped Roxas was the 'darker' and quieter part of Sora...this goes for 358/2 the game too, Roxas was just blissfully happy and when his quick-temper DID surface, it was at other people for being mean to Xion.

I feel so torn about cute/adorable!Roxas. I feel torn about cute/adorable!RAX. On the one hand, well, it's cute and adorable, and I like fluff, so they make me smile. But on the other hand, I don't think, based on what we saw in KH2, that Axel and Roxas were really meant to be cute. They're snarky, emotionless Nobodies that gradually develop emotions over time. I like the big brother/little brother dynamic they had going on, but anyone with siblings knows that such a relationship isn't always going to be cute and fluffy anyway. They can still tease each other and have misunderstandings, etc, etc.

Spoiler Show

That's good to know; I was worried I had taken one small comment and blown it up too much.

Being defensive is fine if the hate is undeserved, or if the hate was spawned by false claims (like hating Kairi because Kairi "hates Riku" is untrue and Kairi fans have a right to bitch about it), but when it's just someone's personal opinion, let it go. It's okay for people to not like Xion because she was unnecessary or whined too much or other such reasons, be they canon or opinion. It's also okay for fans to be defensive and upset if someone hates a character due to something completely made up that has no basis in canon. Unfortunately, the latter case is almost never true (at least from what I've seen) when it comes to Xion.

I can also understand how it feels to love a character, a game, a story, etc. and never see anything but criticism for it. It's also not fair to treat fans like idiots because they didn't appreciate something enough or like/dislike something for the same reasons. Doug Walker, aka the Nostalgia Critic on ThatGuyWiththeGlasses.com, constantly points out in his videos that if you love or hate something and everybody else has the opposite opinion, it doesn't make you a terrible, stupid person. Even when he's reviewing movies that he utterly despised, he never insults the fans (except when he's in character, but never for real). I wish everyone on the Internet had that attitude, but I guess it's not easy when we're all human.

I remember a long while back, I made the comment that if AkuRoku was such a powerful couple, Xion wouldn't have made a difference to their relationship. Which is why most AkuRoku fans don't hate her for that reason. xD
Something odd in your comparison, though; I actually HAVE seen people hating Kairi because they think she gets in the way of SoRiku. More so for her than for Xion and AkuRoku. I mean, most Kairi haters don't think that way, but I have seen a fair few.

I'm sure there are people who hate on Kairi and Xion; I was just using that as an example of when I don't think it's appropriate to hate on a character. I'm sure not every hater dislikes Kairi because she gets in the way of SoRiku, but genuinely think that she doesn't add anything to their bromance and should just be taken out. If someone doesn't like her for that reason, I don't mind so much even though I disagree.

Not to mention treating Axel like crap at times because of Xion. Until the end of the scene, "Why the Sun Sets Red" is one of the VERY few times I've seen the AkuRoku friendship actually treated like a friendship in Days. If there were more scenes like that, where Xion may not always be an afterthought but perhaps is not always the focus, Days would have been better regarding their character development.

I wish there had been more scenes like "Why the Sun Sets Red." That scene left me feeling depressed before the story had properly started, because when Roxas said he'd been in the Organization for 255 days, I realized that they didn't have very much time left, and they had no idea. They just talked and laughed and goofed off as usual. It almost hurt to watch. At least they had some other moments, like the Neverland mission and Roxas asking Axel questions about love and "pushing a girl's buttons," lol.

What's sad is Xion's inclusion didn't have to lead to that. If it had been done right, we might have had some decent character portrayal without having to cut out the extra character. If SRK, TAV, and HPO can do it right, RAX could have as well.
Yeah, you can't really blame anyone for hating Xion for that reason. I mean, if her intro game screwed some things up for fans, her subsequent games can't really fix that, so Xion is in essence the problem here.

I'm not really sure how that could be pulled off though, because they were still introducing a new character in the middle of the timeline that had never been mentioned before, and they needed to get all her development done in one game. Plus, if she didn't have a prominent appearance in the game, people would complain that she was pointless, but now we're upset because she took over the whole story arc instead.

Spoiler Show

HAPPY NEW YEARS! Do you know what else that means? HAPPY ANNIVERSARY GUYS!!

Three whole years <3

I MISSED THE PARTY AT GASTON'S TAVERN??? NOOOOOOO!!!!! Nobody knows how to throw clubbing club parties about Xion LIKE GASTON!

OMG IT IS

WE SHOULD CELEBRATE WITH A ROXAS PARTY. Nobody forget the ice cream!

Yeah I have been super slack/busy too D; BUT I ALSO REALLY WANT TO DO IT!!


I want to do a story about ROXAS....

Me too. I'm so ashamed.

Yes, of course, we must focus the story on Roxas!

BUT.... I kind of don't want to get rid of Xion entirely. HEAR ME OUT!!

WHAT. WHAT.

Goldpanner...you've changed...have you been to Castle Oblivion recently???

The male:female ratio in KH is ridiculous, and I feel pretty crappy getting rid of one of the only original girls in the series.

My idea is... we could include an Aqua clone (made from something in the armour inside the chamber!) who is a serious threat to Roxas because she is loyal and single-mindedly driven to complete her tasks and is really diddlying tough with a Keyblade, and unless he works super hard, the Organisation won't need him and then he won't get the answers they promised to help him find regarding his identity (HIS CORE MOTIVATION). She won't be ~super best friends with Axel and Roxas, she stands as an almost scary rival (an inversion of the big sister figure Aqua was to Ven), and a symbol of what the Organisation wants Roxas to be: an unquestioning solider, someone who is actually a puppet. Depending on whether we choose to keep the game set before BBS or after, there could be a mystery about whether she is actually Aqua with no memories or a clone... and I want tension between her, Roxas and Xemnas... and in the end, when Roxas is forced to kill her because they send her after him to stop him leaving the Organisation, the pain of killing 'Aqua' wakes up Ven's heart and unlocks dual wielding...

Yeah, I know how you feel about that. I want more girls in KH, but I also want them to be written well and I feel so hypocritical when I think about how I'd rather have had a game that was just the Org members that were already established.

WOW. That. Is. Perfect. It has ties to BBS without necessarily giving away what happened in that game because she would be a clone of Aqua, not the real thing. She'd be completely different from all the other KH girls we've seen too, even Larxene, and you've managed to come up with another clone character that doesn't retread the arcs of Repliku, Xion, Roxas, Namine, etc, etc. Plus, it has the potential to create a lot of tension for a game where we know how it's ultimately going to end. I like the idea of her being a scary competitor to Roxas and what the Organization wants from him. She'd have a lot of tension with Axel too.

Also could we maybe please have some RAD? They don't have to be like the super-special RAX trio, it could even just be Roxas being friends with both of them without them being all friends at once, but I would like some RAD. I think it would be interesting to draw parallels between the two friends and have their relationship with Roxas deteroriate for different reasons. Demyx doesn't appear to be too bothered by what's really happening in the Organization, so he probably wouldn't know Roxas' true origins, instead of having the dilemma of lying to him like Axel. But I think that would hurt Roxas too; it would seem like he just didn't care enough about what was happening to Roxas to look into it more. Axel's problem is that he almost cares too much, for the wrong reasons, and lies in a misguided attempt to protect his friend. Demyx's problem is that he doesn't care enough and takes his friends for granted until it's too late.

I was also thinking that I do like how Days brought Axel and Roxas together, with Xemnas assigning Axel as his mentor. That gives an excuse for why he would be spending time with Roxas when he normally couldn't be bothered. And while I was playing around with an idea for a completely different fanfic involving them, I thought back to some of the original promotional stuff for Days when it was first announced, and I remembered how the synopsis described them going to the clock tower every day to eat ice cream and talk about what they'd done on their missions that day. I realized there's actually something significant there that I'd never thought of before. As cheesy as this might sound, Roxas, being a special Nobody, was probably the only Org member that would actually want to know what kind of crazy misadventures Axel had gotten into on other worlds and would want to know how his day went. It's something I think I've always taken for granted with my friends and family, that I can talk to them about how my life's been going and they'll listen and respond, and vice versa. But for characters living in a world full of emotionless, apathetic people, that would be pretty huge, and I wondered if maybe that could have been what sparked their friendship. And then of course they could also be sent on missions together and be forced to help each other solve problems, which would strengthen the friendship all the more.

Idk, what do you think?

You always word things so perfectly!! It is this exactly. Of course Axel/Roxas shippers would be disproportionately affected, because they have so much emotional investment in that particular area. But there are many many people other than shippers who felt the same thing, ship aside.

Hell, even as a hardcore shipper, all I actually wanted was a meaningful, developed friendship. I knew that my ship was never going to be canon and idk if I'd even want it to be, KH is pretty lacklustre at developing overt romances in general. And yes, only idiots care if members of a ship have friends or even other potential love interests. As long as canon does the characters justice, you can enjoy it for what it is, and embellish or extrapolate in your own imagination for fun if you want to. But if canon goes on to completely undermine or retcon or run into the ground what made you love a character or the dymanic between two characters, it feels pretty awful. Which is what Days as a whole ended up doing imo anyway.

I wanted it too; I really did. And I can relate a little; I love SoNami, as you know, but I'm not really happy with the way that relationship's been handled lately. Their "reunion" in DDD was cute, but I wish the writers wouldn't blow the "thank you" out of proportion. Yes, Namine, thank you for cleaning up the mess you made. I'd rather they do what Sora had suggested at the end of CoM- become friends for real. But the need to thank her is still getting dragged out.

*hugs*

There's a trend on tumblr especially currently to use the word 'flawless' as a snappy word to call things/celebrities/tv shows they like, I doubt most of them even really care about analysing writing or whatever. There's also a trend of being endlessly positive but in a very shallow way, as if true fans are ones who love every aspect of the series without looking too closely at why

But that means this club and Xion have something in common: WE'RE BOTH FLAWLESS.

I think most of this is because hetero romances, unlike gay ones, actually have a real chance of becoming endgame canon. And while most people recognise that ships are ships and you should be able to enjoy your interpretation no matter what happens in canon, it can still feel kind of upsetting to know deep down that Character A and B will eventually get together even if you personally feel that A and C work so much better together in every way, but it will never happen because A and C are same-gender or something like that. So then some sillier fans decide that makes B the enemy... if she wasn't there, then maybe their A+C dreams wouldn't feel so far away... and they then vent their frustration on her... which is pretty awful. It doesn't help that the female love interest characters like Kairi are hardly ever developed much compared to the male main characters, so people are set up to not really connect with them and so can write them off easily anyway.

I guess that does explain the hatred for female characters. That last sentence is something that really bugs me about media. Okay, so the girl's going to be a love interest. That doesn't mean writers don't have to put in any effort to give her a personality or develop her relationship with the guy, any more than it would mean that writers should not put in any effort into developing the guy. Sure, it might be obvious that they'll end up together, but it's how they get there that can be interesting and well-written.

Well, it is hard for a lot of the KH girls to compare positively next to Namine. While Aqua may be the sexiest girl in KH, Namine is the most beautiful. <3

Yes, she is very beautiful!

Also, guys, I was wondering if I could ask a semi-unrelated Days question here? What exactly is the relationship between Riku and Xehanort's Heartless in Days and KH2? Xehanort's Heartless was still inside him, wasn't it? That's why he ended up looking like him. But what that something he could change at will or not? Because KH2 gave me the impression that he got stuck looking like that after his battle with Roxas, but in Days we see him changing in front of Mickey. It's got me confused.

 

[Reika]

I vow that I WILL be here today and join in the discussions!

Also, guys, I was wondering if I could ask a semi-unrelated Days question here? What exactly is the relationship between Riku and Xehanort's Heartless in Days and KH2? Xehanort's Heartless was still inside him, wasn't it? That's why he ended up looking like him. But what that something he could change at will or not? Because KH2 gave me the impression that he got stuck looking like that after his battle with Roxas, but in Days we see him changing in front of Mickey. It's got me confused.

I was under the impression that he couldn't change at will, only hold it back. With Roxas, he stopped holding back and allowed himself to change permanently (something he had been trying to prevent) by embracing Ansem SoD's dark powers so he could win against Roxas. With Mickey, he wasn't holding Ansem SoD back, but he wasn't using Ansem SoD's power either (which is what Ansem SoD wants), so he was able to become Riku again by pushing Ansem SoD down again via the blindfold.

I hope that made sense. xD;

 

[Reika]

OH THAT BEAUTIFUL COLISEUM MISSION!!!! <3<3<3 I finally read it and it was hilarious! And then I saw this and squee'd:

Spoiler Show

Awwww, he offers to work harder on the mission so Roxas can get his vacation with Axel and Xion! RAD WHY AREN'T YOU CANON???

OMG! ;w; That's too cute! Damn, I love RAD. Much as I love Xion, I can't STAND RAX. But Roxas, Axel, and Demyx would make for an awesome bromance. <3

I can also understand how it feels to love a character, a game, a story, etc. and never see anything but criticism for it. It's also not fair to treat fans like idiots because they didn't appreciate something enough or like/dislike something for the same reasons. Doug Walker, aka the Nostalgia Critic on ThatGuyWiththeGlasses.com, constantly points out in his videos that if you love or hate something and everybody else has the opposite opinion, it doesn't make you a terrible, stupid person. Even when he's reviewing movies that he utterly despised, he never insults the fans (except when he's in character, but never for real). I wish everyone on the Internet had that attitude, but I guess it's not easy when we're all human.

Oh, I get that. That's part of what made me a diehard Kairi fan when I first came to KHI; most of the people I had seen here hated her. xD So I get that. Thing is, the Xion fans overshadow the haters EVERYWHERE THEY GO. I avoid the TVTropes page for Days because the Xion fandumb is constantly removing criticism and adding little take thats at haters, be it canon or fanon. At deviantART, go to any piece criticizing Xion and there will be a group of Xion fans bitching about it. At KHI (at least, last I remember; I haven't been to the main boards in a long while, so this has probably changed), the only way to criticize her is here at the HC because it pisses off Xion fans otherwise and starts an argument. In my experience, the Xion fandumb is always there to flame the haters. They are by far one of the loudest corners of the KH fandom and that's what made me a Xion hater for a while. I never hated Xion; I hated her fandumb.

I hope this doesn't sound like I was getting angry at you or anything. x: I understand your point of view completely and have nothing against it.

I'm sure there are people who hate on Kairi and Xion; I was just using that as an example of when I don't think it's appropriate to hate on a character. I'm sure not every hater dislikes Kairi because she gets in the way of SoRiku, but genuinely think that she doesn't add anything to their bromance and should just be taken out. If someone doesn't like her for that reason, I don't mind so much even though I disagree.

I know, and the people who hate Kairi for that reason definitely doesn't make up the majority of the hatedom. xD I just thought it strange that Kairi gets hit harder with this than Xion, considering how insanely popular AkuRoku is. One would think that Xion hatedumb would be larger than it is. I'm not complaining about that (the less stereotypical Xion haters there are, the better for sane Xion haters), it just struck me as odd.

I wish there had been more scenes like "Why the Sun Sets Red." That scene left me feeling depressed before the story had properly started, because when Roxas said he'd been in the Organization for 255 days, I realized that they didn't have very much time left, and they had no idea. They just talked and laughed and goofed off as usual. It almost hurt to watch. At least they had some other moments, like the Neverland mission and Roxas asking Axel questions about love and "pushing a girl's buttons," lol.

Me, too. :c I LOVE that scene. It is sad, but it was one of the best cutscenes in the game.

I'm not really sure how that could be pulled off though, because they were still introducing a new character in the middle of the timeline that had never been mentioned before, and they needed to get all her development done in one game. Plus, if she didn't have a prominent appearance in the game, people would complain that she was pointless, but now we're upset because she took over the whole story arc instead.

It would have to be like Namine and SDG, the only difference being Xion is removed from EVERYONE's chain of memories and with the melodramatic death scene.

 

[NocturnalMelody]

Hi Zul, TN and Reika <3
YAY it's so exciting to see people popping back in here again! :3

Things have changed in KHInsider too. The fanclubs aren't as active as they used to be, for one. And I wish I was still into KH as I was before. The direction it has taken and the bull that we are supposed to continually buy and live with has genuinely turned me off from continuing it any further. I only care to see how the characters end up.

Maybe in the future, it can get out of the mess it created and all the unneeded additions and complexities.

While I'm still following the series, I don't blame you for losing your love for it. The plot is so tangled up and it's getting lazier and lazier with each game. I just wish there were KH fans that could love it AND accept that there's some serious flaws with the series...tumblr especially thinks that you have to love EVERY aspect of the game to be a fan when that's clearly not the case. -_-

I realized that Kingdom Hearts 1.5 just highlighted how...awkward the RAX ice cream scenes were. At first it was eye candy, but then it's an eyeopener when you realize that the plot is just as bad as it was on the crappy DS graphics. Just long, boring conversations while eating ice cream. Ugh. And then everyone's supposed to believe that this 'beautiful' friendship is genuine when everyone was basically hiding secrets from eachother the whole time and playing favorites with one over the other -_- I really do hope Axel and Roxas get their reunion first, but I hope we're not setting ourselves up for disappointment.

Hell, I hope KH 3 is not a major disappointment. I'd like the series to go out with a bang.

Spoiler Show

Well OF COURSE you're an AkuRoku fangirl, NocturnalMelody! You're a Xion hater, and we all know that the only people who hate Xion are AkuRoku fangirls! Even the haters that claim to be guys, not girls! Even the haters that don't ship anyone with anything! THE INTERNET SAID SO.

I HAVE BEEN FOUND OUT

YOU'VE EXPOSED MY SINFUL FANGIRLISH WAYS

At least when Axel had his dramatic personality shift in KH2, we could at least say to ourselves, "Well, there was a year-long gap in between CoM and KH2, so there was time for him to change through his friendship with Roxas." In Days, he's a little apathetic and reluctant to train Roxas at first, but that changes really fast with not much explanation except that Castle Oblivion changed him. I've noticed that from KH2 onwards, Kingdom Hearts has problems with the "show, don't tell" rule. We're told in KH2 that Axel had this amazing friendship with Roxas but we never get to see what he was missing so badly. In Days, we're told constantly that Axel changed, but no drastic difference shows itself. We're told in BBS that TAV is this amazing inseparable trio and then they spend most of the game apart. And so on and so forth. I just wish this didn't happen so much, especially when video games are a visual medium, so it's possible to show a character's emotions or thoughts without words.

The storytelling in general has gotten pretty childish since KH II...for some reason they think the audience isn't capable of feeling strong emotion unless it's shoved in their faces. Xion's overly tragic story and everyone in the game except for mean ol' Saix pitying her was stressed constantly as if they were afraid the player wouldn't sympathize with her otherwise.

We're TOLD Xemnas is a horrible, evil villain in Days, that he must be stopped...when in reality, he really didn't do anything that evil. He really shouldn't even be considered a villain in that game (DDD aside). It's like he sits around on his tall chair, snickering to himself about how evil he is...and then says things like: "Oh, Xion ran away again? ...Darn. Well, let her go. We should do something? Hm...let's just see who kills the other first, her or Roxas! Because, you know, Kingdom Hearts wills it so. And darkness."

Awwww, he offers to work harder on the mission so Roxas can get his vacation with Axel and Xion! RAD WHY AREN'T YOU CANON???

Also could we maybe please have some RAD? They don't have to be like the super-special RAX trio, it could even just be Roxas being friends with both of them without them being all friends at once, but I would like some RAD.

YAY You picked one of my favorite panels!! This says a lot...he's the laziest member of the Organization, tries to find every excuse to skip out on missions, could care less about the other members, and yet he's genuinely willing to work hard for Roxas to be able to be with his friends. Makes him seem a LOT less 2-dimensional than he was in the game! (If I remember correctly when he saw Sora again, he grabbed him in a crushing hug thinking he was Roxas...does Demyx even get defeated at the hands Sora in the manga? I don't think Amano ever got that far...)
I can see why he would be so "Eh, oh well!" about the deaths of the Castle Oblivion members too. I doubt any of them were ever nice to him, so it would be a relief for him to see them gone.

I agree, that would be a great way to have conflict in their friendship, since Demyx has this whole "I don't care" attitude with his duties and everything else besides his music. He's the odd duck out of the Organization, but he's not as weak as he acts, or else he wouldn't be a Nobody...so he had to have had a strong enough heart. But again, we're probably not ever going to see why, since Days basically wrote off his character as unimportant and I doubt it'll be picked up again in the future

Plus it would be nice to see a trio that DOESN'T have to symbolically represent SRK in some way, shape or form -_-

I feel so torn about cute/adorable!Roxas. I feel torn about cute/adorable!RAX. On the one hand, well, it's cute and adorable, and I like fluff, so they make me smile. But on the other hand, I don't think, based on what we saw in KH2, that Axel and Roxas were really meant to be cute. They're snarky, emotionless Nobodies that gradually develop emotions over time. I like the big brother/little brother dynamic they had going on, but anyone with siblings knows that such a relationship isn't always going to be cute and fluffy anyway. They can still tease each other and have misunderstandings, etc, etc.

That's how it SHOULD have been anyway...I mean, let's say we keep the whole zombie thing with Roxas, wouldn't he be more of an emotionless robot at first, and a lot colder, if he didn't know how to feel emotions yet? I mean, I get that he's a part of Sora, but it would have been MUCH more interesting to see him develop and care for his friends over time instead of the the moment he starts talking. There can definitely be fluff...but more balanced out throughout the game...and maybe use the ice cream scenes more sparingly so they stay special, instead of getting stale.

Also, guys, I was wondering if I could ask a semi-unrelated Days question here? What exactly is the relationship between Riku and Xehanort's Heartless in Days and KH2? Xehanort's Heartless was still inside him, wasn't it? That's why he ended up looking like him. But what that something he could change at will or not? Because KH2 gave me the impression that he got stuck looking like that after his battle with Roxas, but in Days we see him changing in front of Mickey. It's got me confused.

I don't think he was able to change at will, I think that he was constantly fighting against the darkness' influence over him, and this took a lot of his effort to keep it at bay. His blindfold seems like another way to keep Xehanort's heartless at bay, and when he put it back on he was able to regain his true form again. When he used the power of darkness too much to defeat he screwed himself over.

 

[Reika]

Things have changed in KHInsider too. The fanclubs aren't as active as they used to be, for one. And I wish I was still into KH as I was before. The direction it has taken and the bull that we are supposed to continually buy and live with has genuinely turned me off from continuing it any further. I only care to see how the characters end up.

Maybe in the future, it can get out of the mess it created and all the unneeded additions and complexities.

I've noticed that, too. :c Kinda sad; I love the fanclubs.

I'm still a total KH fangirl (and it's still my favorite series), but the quality HAS gone downhill, at least story-wise. Nomura's losing his grip on the plot as well as logic. Much as I love KH3D, the story didn't make much sense, especially towards the end. I think this explains it well:

Spoiler Show

RAX is worse off than SRK.

Seconded.

Riku and Kairi are just kind of awkward in that they're not as close as they are to Sora. They're much nicer to each other as well.

While not as close as they are to Sora, I'd say they're still pretty close. It's just that the series practically revolves around Sora, so RiKai never gets any development.

All Roxas cared about was what Xion was doing every second. That was basically his designated role in a game that was promoted to be his. Axel's main priority was to keep Roxas safe, even if Xion had to be a sacrifice (he didn't like doing so, yet he didn't stop it either). It's not balanced in any sense of the word, and I can't fathom why people believe it is. Actions speak louder than texts. They keep commenting on this connection in words that isn't fully there physically. It's better to keep the reunion as Axel/Roxas and Roxas/Xion because that's what it technically amounts to.

That's part of why I don't like RAX; it really doesn't SEEM like a friendship (the other reason being the fact that, although it's truthfully not, it feels creepy having 25-26-year-old Axel hanging out with two 14-year-olds). Axel's just there, Roxas treats Axel like crap and Xion like freakin' goddess, and Xion's the crappy plot device everything revolves around. What's there to like?

Hi Zul, TN and Reika <3
YAY it's so exciting to see people popping back in here again! :3

It is nice to see this place active again, even if only just a little. ;w;

While I'm still following the series, I don't blame you for losing your love for it. The plot is so tangled up and it's getting lazier and lazier with each game. I just wish there were KH fans that could love it AND accept that there's some serious flaws with the series...tumblr especially thinks that you have to love EVERY aspect of the game to be a fan when that's clearly not the case. -_-

Agreed completely. The series is extremely flawed and Nomura has one hell of a mess to clean up.

You know, I'm actually kind of glad that there will be more games after the Xehanort arc. Maybe the first game of the next arc can sort of start from scratch and not have the convoluted plot threads of the previous arc.

 

[Organization_42]

I vow that I WILL be here today and join in the discussions!

Me too! Hopefully...

I was under the impression that he couldn't change at will, only hold it back. With Roxas, he stopped holding back and allowed himself to change permanently (something he had been trying to prevent) by embracing Ansem SoD's dark powers so he could win against Roxas. With Mickey, he wasn't holding Ansem SoD back, but he wasn't using Ansem SoD's power either (which is what Ansem SoD wants), so he was able to become Riku again by pushing Ansem SoD down again via the blindfold.

I hope that made sense. xD;

I don't think he was able to change at will, I think that he was constantly fighting against the darkness' influence over him, and this took a lot of his effort to keep it at bay. His blindfold seems like another way to keep Xehanort's heartless at bay, and when he put it back on he was able to regain his true form again. When he used the power of darkness too much to defeat he screwed himself over.

Ohhhh, okay...I think I understood that. Thank you, guys! So, am I right in thinking that a part of Xehanort's Heartless is still inside him and it got destroyed when Ansem's Kingdom Hearts-collecting machine exploded? And that's why Riku went back to normal?

OMG! ;w; That's too cute! Damn, I love RAD. Much as I love Xion, I can't STAND RAX. But Roxas, Axel, and Demyx would make for an awesome bromance. <3

It would've been so awesome! :3

Oh, I get that. That's part of what made me a diehard Kairi fan when I first came to KHI; most of the people I had seen here hated her. xD So I get that. Thing is, the Xion fans overshadow the haters EVERYWHERE THEY GO. I avoid the TVTropes page for Days because the Xion fandumb is constantly removing criticism and adding little take thats at haters, be it canon or fanon. At deviantART, go to any piece criticizing Xion and there will be a group of Xion fans bitching about it. At KHI (at least, last I remember; I haven't been to the main boards in a long while, so this has probably changed), the only way to criticize her is here at the HC because it pisses off Xion fans otherwise and starts an argument. In my experience, the Xion fandumb is always there to flame the haters. They are by far one of the loudest corners of the KH fandom and that's what made me a Xion hater for a while. I never hated Xion; I hated her fandumb.

I hope this doesn't sound like I was getting angry at you or anything. x: I understand your point of view completely and have nothing against it.

Oh no, I didn't think you were angry with me. I wasn't upset with you either. I get it. While I do know some very nice Xion fans, it ticks me off when I'm listening to her theme on YouTube and people get so many negative votes for saying things like, "I don't like her, but I like her theme." And what exactly does that accomplish? Do they think that the hater is going to look at all those angry comments and think, "My God, they're RIGHT! I AM a horrible imbecile; how could I have ever had such vile thoughts about poor Xion? FORGIVE MEEEEEEE!!!!" Honestly, if someone attacks me like that on the Internet, for just about anything I believe, it doesn't change my mind, it just aggravates me and I'm even more determined to disagree. I guess I'm just getting tired of the angry fights that break out in the fandom. I used to love the Kairi debates because it was a chance for me to talk about what I liked about her, discuss her, speculate on what would be a good way to incorporate her in future games, etc. Even when the rest of the forums disagreed with me at first, it was still really fun. And those debates helped me to appeciate Namine and SoNami.

But after a while I just got tired of being treated like I was an idiot because I liked Kairi and SoKai, and I felt bad for all of the times when I know I came off as really condescending to the other side too. And now it's all happening with Xion again, except now I'm more on the other side of the debate. I just wish everyone would calm down and understand that just because I don't like Xion's inclusion in the game doesn't make me smarter than Xion fans and it doesn't mean they have to stop enjoying her, nor does it make me a misogynist or a mindless shipper who puts her OTPs before everything else. I think, overall, the situation has improved a lot on KHI, but as you've pointed out, it's still bothersome elsewhere.

I know, and the people who hate Kairi for that reason definitely doesn't make up the majority of the hatedom. xD I just thought it strange that Kairi gets hit harder with this than Xion, considering how insanely popular AkuRoku is. One would think that Xion hatedumb would be larger than it is. I'm not complaining about that (the less stereotypical Xion haters there are, the better for sane Xion haters), it just struck me as odd.

It IS odd, since Kairi's always been an established part of the friendship- her friendship with Sora was even introduced to the player before Riku shows up, whereas Xion got added into the Axel and Roxas friendship about three years after fans were introduced to them. Not only that, but Kairi was just as important to Sora in KH1 as Riku (and CoM, in a way). It wasn't until the later games that she started to get overshadowed by their Epic Bromance. Part of me feels really bad for wanting Kairi to get more exposure in her trio, while I don't want to see more RAX. Idk, I just really like Kairi better. And I guess since my feelings about Xion are so mixed, I'd rather see her story end where it did and not feel so conflicted about her anymore.

Me, too. :c I LOVE that scene. It is sad, but it was one of the best cutscenes in the game.

Yep, it's one of my favorites. If something like that had been included in KH2, like right after the final Axel fight in the Longest Tutorial Ever, I think Axel's part of the story would've been much stronger. But that's a whole other can of worms...

It would have to be like Namine and SDG, the only difference being Xion is removed from EVERYONE's chain of memories and with the melodramatic death scene.

But isn't that sort-of what happened in Days?

I HAVE BEEN FOUND OUT

YOU'VE EXPOSED MY SINFUL FANGIRLISH WAYS

YOU MUST FACE THE XION INQUISITION!

I'LL BET YOU WEREN'T EXPECTING THAT!

The storytelling in general has gotten pretty childish since KH II...for some reason they think the audience isn't capable of feeling strong emotion unless it's shoved in their faces. Xion's overly tragic story and everyone in the game except for mean ol' Saix pitying her was stressed constantly as if they were afraid the player wouldn't sympathize with her otherwise.

We're TOLD Xemnas is a horrible, evil villain in Days, that he must be stopped...when in reality, he really didn't do anything that evil. He really shouldn't even be considered a villain in that game (DDD aside). It's like he sits around on his tall chair, snickering to himself about how evil he is...and then says things like: "Oh, Xion ran away again? ...Darn. Well, let her go. We should do something? Hm...let's just see who kills the other first, her or Roxas! Because, you know, Kingdom Hearts wills it so. And darkness."

LOL, Xemnas. Well, he's got to listen to what Kingdom Hearts wants; it's his canon love interest!

I've noticed that problem occurs in KH2 as well, especially in comparison to CoM. In Kingdom Hearts 2, SDG and the rest of the heroes are always talking about Organization XIII, but we don't see them very much. There was a lot of, "Organization XIII is up to something!" "Have you seen anyone wearing a black coat?" "Organization XIII must be stopped!" "Something's rotten in the state of Denmark? It must be the work of Organization XIII!" Meanwhile, in Chain of Memories, we were never told that Organization XIII was a mysterious, menacing group that needed to be stopped. But we knew they were bad news because we saw cutscenes of them snickering over Sora's memory problems, scheming over what they were going to do next, Namine cringing every time one of them approached her, and up until the final boss fight with Larxene, it looked like they had tampered with Riku's memories and they were holding one of Sora's other best friends hostage. We could see through their actions that they were evil, not by Yen Sid and Sora telling us they were evil.

So I guess Xion's just one part of an ongoing storytelling problem in the Kingdom Hearts series. I just hope they can go back to what made the first two games so good and improve for KH3. There's a lot of potential for an awesome game.

YAY You picked one of my favorite panels!! This says a lot...he's the laziest member of the Organization, tries to find every excuse to skip out on missions, could care less about the other members, and yet he's genuinely willing to work hard for Roxas to be able to be with his friends. Makes him seem a LOT less 2-dimensional than he was in the game! (If I remember correctly when he saw Sora again, he grabbed him in a crushing hug thinking he was Roxas...does Demyx even get defeated at the hands Sora in the manga? I don't think Amano ever got that far...)
I can see why he would be so "Eh, oh well!" about the deaths of the Castle Oblivion members too. I doubt any of them were ever nice to him, so it would be a relief for him to see them gone.

I agree, that would be a great way to have conflict in their friendship, since Demyx has this whole "I don't care" attitude with his duties and everything else besides his music. He's the odd duck out of the Organization, but he's not as weak as he acts, or else he wouldn't be a Nobody...so he had to have had a strong enough heart. But again, we're probably not ever going to see why, since Days basically wrote off his character as unimportant and I doubt it'll be picked up again in the future

Plus it would be nice to see a trio that DOESN'T have to symbolically represent SRK in some way, shape or form -_-

I remember that part in the KH2 manga! And don't forget how he hugged Sora because Sora had the Olympus Stone and healed him with it, even though Donald and Goofy didn't think it was such a good idea to heal an enemy. That whole scene is pretty funny because even after Demyx decides to attack them, he gives Sora the Olympus Stone back when the Underworld starts making the trio feel sick. I keep hoping he becomes important later on, even if it's not by befriending Axel and Roxas, but I'm not holding out much hope either. Maybe he'll end up being one of Xehanort's vessels...?

I was thinking RAD could symbolically represent SDG. Axel and Demyx would go on various missions with Roxas and be battle partners, like Donald and Goofy helped Sora, and that would make Roxas' eventual dream of their act of abandoning Sora in Hollow Bastion more poignant, because he could have that dream-flashback when his own friendships are falling apart and he feels like they won't help him when he really needs them the most. ...I think I speculate about RAD too much.

That's how it SHOULD have been anyway...I mean, let's say we keep the whole zombie thing with Roxas, wouldn't he be more of an emotionless robot at first, and a lot colder, if he didn't know how to feel emotions yet? I mean, I get that he's a part of Sora, but it would have been MUCH more interesting to see him develop and care for his friends over time instead of the the moment he starts talking. There can definitely be fluff...but more balanced out throughout the game...and maybe use the ice cream scenes more sparingly so they stay special, instead of getting stale.

I like those ideas! Yes, fluff can be necessary, at the right times. It shows what Roxas, Axel, and Xion are trying to recover and what it is that they're really missing, so we sympathize with them better. But I didn't think Roxas and Axel were the type to be all fluff, all the time, and it used to frustrate me when I'd search for fanfics that would just be about their friendship...and it was all fluff, all the time. But I guess I was the one that was wrong.

...and now I feel like a hypocrite because I'm not very good at writing snark and a lot of my stories are fluffy. I want to write RAD bromance or just Axel and Roxas friendship fics, but it's hard to get them just right.

 

[Goldpanner]

AHH ALL THESE LOVELY THINGS TO REPLY TO!!

I will get round to it when I have some time!

How funny is this nostalgia month? I haven't ever changed my username, so I can't really participate, but I might change my sig

 

[Organization_42]

GOLDPANNER! <3

We should celebrate Nostalgia Month here, too! We could relive some of our favorite old posts or pretend that Days hasn't come out yet and share what we thought it was going to be like- although I guess we've done a lot of the latter idea when we talk about why we felt disappointed.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

HELLO AGAIN! It's good to see you again!

Namine IS so pretty...I thought they were supposed to look exactly alike, aside from the hair difference? And yet Xion still looks kind of weird to me...

Well, it is hard for a lot of the KH girls to compare positively next to Namine. While Aqua may be the sexiest girl in KH, Namine is the most beautiful. <3

But yeah, Xion really looks rather unflattering in comparison to a lot of the other KH girls.

I didn't see these posts. BUT HAI! HAI!

My belief that there's differences between the Kairis remains strong. I don't get where they went wrong with Xion's render, but she's the least attractive out of the clones and I can see it. I feel like her face is too narrow? Elongated? Slimmer? Maybe being Sora has something to do with it.

I've noticed that, too. :c Kinda sad; I love the fanclubs.

I'm still a total KH fangirl (and it's still my favorite series), but the quality HAS gone downhill, at least story-wise. Nomura's losing his grip on the plot as well as logic. Much as I love KH3D, the story didn't make much sense, especially towards the end. I think this explains it well:

Spoiler Show

I think Nomura is simply too stuck on the connections and the repeated ideals behind it, instead of actually making individual characters that physically don't resemble the originals nor whose friendships are based on it. Wouldn't it be cool to have, you know, girl friendships? How about a change of pace? Roxas was truly what I would say his own person at first while still being a part of someone else. He had the older, male best friend in Axel, but there was no trio. The closest thing to it was Naminé, but she was her own separate entity simultaneously. It was a very nice, different set-up. This was also when I believed that "parts" of Sora and Kairi would end there. It made sense with the concept of Nobodies after all. That was it. Now it's convoluted as hell.

There's the fact that Nomura's also very swayed by fan opinion, so if one character is popular, he'll place them in the forefront or fix what isn't broken to have him/her be more relevant (yes, I'm talking about Axel here). He will ignore the others who are...in my personal opinion, a lot more interesting with diverse looks and personalities. There was potential with the cast that he made. Yet they were wasted basically to focus on favorites.

While not as close as they are to Sora, I'd say they're still pretty close. It's just that the series practically revolves around Sora, so RiKai never gets any development.

That's another issue that KH has.

That's part of why I don't like RAX; it really doesn't SEEM like a friendship (the other reason being the fact that, although it's truthfully not, it feels creepy having 25-26-year-old Axel hanging out with two 14-year-olds). Axel's just there, Roxas treats Axel like crap and Xion like freakin' goddess, and Xion's the crappy plot device everything revolves around. What's there to like?

I will never buy RAX. I will never believe in RAX. I will never feel attached to RAX. I will never care for RAX. They feel so fake to me honestly, the fakest out of them all (quite ironic). No amount of sugarcoating and painting daisies will convince me that this was a great, sunny, happy, lovable friendship when there are things in context that indicated otherwise. There's just underhandedness and favoritism that...I don't see it as genuine. It's all covered up by the shove down your throat tragedy and drama. It hasn't changed despite me not logging in here for quite a long while.

Hi Zul, TN and Reika <3
YAY it's so exciting to see people popping back in here again! :3

It kind of is! :3

Nostalgia's hitting me right now. So many memories.

While I'm still following the series, I don't blame you for losing your love for it. The plot is so tangled up and it's getting lazier and lazier with each game. I just wish there were KH fans that could love it AND accept that there's some serious flaws with the series...tumblr especially thinks that you have to love EVERY aspect of the game to be a fan when that's clearly not the case. -_-

I realized that Kingdom Hearts 1.5 just highlighted how...awkward the RAX ice cream scenes were. At first it was eye candy, but then it's an eyeopener when you realize that the plot is just as bad as it was on the crappy DS graphics. Just long, boring conversations while eating ice cream. Ugh. And then everyone's supposed to believe that this 'beautiful' friendship is genuine when everyone was basically hiding secrets from eachother the whole time and playing favorites with one over the other -_- I really do hope Axel and Roxas get their reunion first, but I hope we're not setting ourselves up for disappointment.

Hell, I hope KH 3 is not a major disappointment. I'd like the series to go out with a bang.

I wouldn't say I lost my love for it. If things change in the future, I might be able to get back into it again, slowly. I believe it's more...exhaustion at what the series turned into. I simply don't like what's going on and I'm not going to force myself into enjoying what I obviously don't. Nomura twists his own created universe to fit what he wants to happen regardless if it means tangling up the plot points unnecessarily. There was never a Xion. There was never a need for a Xion. This was the beginning of the downward spiral to me.

I explained my feelings of RAX to Reika above. Why would I want to keep fighting/protecting/caring over a friend who's main concern and obsession is blatantly someone else? Why would I want a friend who keeps things from me for their own selfish reasons? Why would I want a friend who would willingly sacrifice me for the sake of the other if there had to be a choice? They all must have some warped sense of what being a real friend means. It fits that they are technically blank slates (Roxas and Xion anyway), yet if their emotions felt that there was no bias and it was more balanced, it would have come across so if you ask me.

I do wonder how KH3 will hold. Is there really going to be more after that still?

OMG *TWILIGHTNIGHT*!!!!!!!
Hi! ​

ORGANIZATION_42! ;A;

ZOMG!

I still like it, even though I thought Master Xehanort's time-travel plan was pretty ridiculous. Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Yen Sid trying to suggest that this guy knew, back in KH1, that he should time-travel to Destiny Islands so that he would be at the right place when two boys, who didn't wield Keyblades yet, would take their Mark of Master exam two years later in the Realm of Sleep?? Even though Yen Sid said this wasn't a normal way to give the exam? NO. Nobody is that cunning! Nobody is that smart! He was clever in BBS; he was downright psychic in DDD. But I did like the twist about the Nobodies. It explained how they could react to things with emotion without ret-conning everything we knew about them. If the twist had been that Nobodies always had hearts, I would've been mad, but this was okay. And it makes for good fanfic fuel.

Guys, I feel like such a horrible hypocrite. I really want the girls in the trios to get more screentime and it bugs me how Kairi and Aqua are often overshadowed by the Amazing Epic Friendships of Sora/Riku and Terra/Ven- well, not Aqua so much, but MX's entire plan rested on Terra and Ven's bromance. But when it comes to RAX...ehhhhhhh. This is the ONE instance where I DO want the girl to get overshadowed, at least at first. If it was Namine or Demyx I wouldn't feel that way, but I really just want Lea and Roxas to reunite first and then reunite with Xion. With every other group of characters, I think, "Square, pay attention to the ladies too!" but when with RAX, it's "No! Stick to the bromance!" Ugh.

How they ended up explaining a Nobody's existence was basically the best thing I liked out of the whole entire mess. Oh, and Kairi about to train as a wielder. It was the only aspect of the game that didn't leave me WTFing.

You shouldn't feel like a hypocrite. I think that you want a particular way of the series handling the female characters while giving them more attention and purpose than being plot devices. Xion's inclusion was not done correctly. You can dislike it. In fact, it could a representation of what not to do.

 

[8298906]

Why is it that Xion looks so unflattering when compared to her? Even in HD. I'm being genuine here.

Well, it is hard for a lot of the KH girls to compare positively next to Namine. While Aqua may be the sexiest girl in KH, Namine is the most beautiful. <3

But yeah, Xion really looks rather unflattering in comparison to a lot of the other KH girls.

They're all beautiful in their own way.

 

[Reika]

I need to remember to NOT visit the TV Tropes page for Days. The annoyance levels it causes is just plain uncomfortable.

On the bright side, with a mod's help, I got the Deconstruction trope removed from the Days page. <3

Me too! Hopefully...

We're... SORT of succeeding! xD;

Ohhhh, okay...I think I understood that. Thank you, guys! So, am I right in thinking that a part of Xehanort's Heartless is still inside him and it got destroyed when Ansem's Kingdom Hearts-collecting machine exploded? And that's why Riku went back to normal?

That's the impression KH2 gave off, but KH3D makes me question it now. :/ So, I don't know anymore.

Oh no, I didn't think you were angry with me. I wasn't upset with you either. I get it. While I do know some very nice Xion fans, it ticks me off when I'm listening to her theme on YouTube and people get so many negative votes for saying things like, "I don't like her, but I like her theme." And what exactly does that accomplish? Do they think that the hater is going to look at all those angry comments and think, "My God, they're RIGHT! I AM a horrible imbecile; how could I have ever had such vile thoughts about poor Xion? FORGIVE MEEEEEEE!!!!" Honestly, if someone attacks me like that on the Internet, for just about anything I believe, it doesn't change my mind, it just aggravates me and I'm even more determined to disagree. I guess I'm just getting tired of the angry fights that break out in the fandom. I used to love the Kairi debates because it was a chance for me to talk about what I liked about her, discuss her, speculate on what would be a good way to incorporate her in future games, etc. Even when the rest of the forums disagreed with me at first, it was still really fun. And those debates helped me to appeciate Namine and SoNami.

But after a while I just got tired of being treated like I was an idiot because I liked Kairi and SoKai, and I felt bad for all of the times when I know I came off as really condescending to the other side too. And now it's all happening with Xion again, except now I'm more on the other side of the debate. I just wish everyone would calm down and understand that just because I don't like Xion's inclusion in the game doesn't make me smarter than Xion fans and it doesn't mean they have to stop enjoying her, nor does it make me a misogynist or a mindless shipper who puts her OTPs before everything else. I think, overall, the situation has improved a lot on KHI, but as you've pointed out, it's still bothersome elsewhere.

That's EXACTLY how I feel! That's what made me a hater for a while: The fandumb! It's ridiculous how pissed people get over fictional characters and stories. I could name plenty of characters I hate, but I could never feel animosity towards the characters' fans. Why must others let it get them so upset? Different strokes for different folks.

Civil debates are fun. xD The arguments, though, have gotten tiring. I'm sick of the anger and insults that fly around when certain characters are mentioned. I'm sick of the fandumbs and hatedumbs making the sane fans and sane haters look bad. I'm sick of having to avoid places involving my favorite characters for fear of what kind of people and responses I'll find there.

Glad to see KHI has gotten better, though perhaps it's because it's less active than it used to be. Which is a bummer. :c But yeah, most other places still house batshit insane fans/haters. Best to just avoid them altogether if possible.

It IS odd, since Kairi's always been an established part of the friendship- her friendship with Sora was even introduced to the player before Riku shows up, whereas Xion got added into the Axel and Roxas friendship about three years after fans were introduced to them. Not only that, but Kairi was just as important to Sora in KH1 as Riku (and CoM, in a way). It wasn't until the later games that she started to get overshadowed by their Epic Bromance. Part of me feels really bad for wanting Kairi to get more exposure in her trio, while I don't want to see more RAX. Idk, I just really like Kairi better. And I guess since my feelings about Xion are so mixed, I'd rather see her story end where it did and not feel so conflicted about her anymore.

Exactly, and with AkuRoku being so insanely popular, I thought there'd be more people who are on the side of 'Die for My Ship' regarding Xion. There aren't nearly as many haters who hate Xion because of AkuRoku as a lot of people believe, and even LESS so than people who hate Kairi because of SoRiku. It's strange.

That's probably partly because RAX hasn't gotten the development that SRK got. xD; RAX just sort of happened while SRK was alive and well from the start with emphasis on their relationship. Days did a bad job at making a good trio.
I love Xion, but I have to agree. Let her die along with other should-stay-dead characters. :/ Not every character's story arc must continue for eternity, it's okay to let some of them end.

Yep, it's one of my favorites. If something like that had been included in KH2, like right after the final Axel fight in the Longest Tutorial Ever, I think Axel's part of the story would've been much stronger. But that's a whole other can of worms...

Not much to say but: Agreed. xD

But isn't that sort-of what happened in Days?

The idea I had, when explained in detail, WAS actually different... but I've completely forgotten what it was. :c

I didn't see these posts. BUT HAI! HAI!

HIHI! 8D

My belief that there's differences between the Kairis remains strong. I don't get where they went wrong with Xion's render, but she's the least attractive out of the clones and I can see it. I feel like her face is too narrow? Elongated? Slimmer? Maybe being Sora has something to do with it.

Xion's seems more... angular. Kairi, Namine, and Aqua all have soft features, but Xion's are sharper and perhaps more masculine?

I think Nomura is simply too stuck on the connections and the repeated ideals behind it, instead of actually making individual characters that physically don't resemble the originals nor whose friendships are based on it. Wouldn't it be cool to have, you know, girl friendships? How about a change of pace? Roxas was truly what I would say his own person at first while still being a part of someone else. He had the older, male best friend in Axel, but there was no trio. The closest thing to it was Naminé, but she was her own separate entity simultaneously. It was a very nice, different set-up. This was also when I believed that "parts" of Sora and Kairi would end there. It made sense with the concept of Nobodies after all. That was it. Now it's convoluted as hell.

There's the fact that Nomura's also very swayed by fan opinion, so if one character is popular, he'll place them in the forefront or fix what isn't broken to have him/her be more relevant (yes, I'm talking about Axel here). He will ignore the others who are...in my personal opinion, a lot more interesting with diverse looks and personalities. There was potential with the cast that he made. Yet they were wasted basically to focus on favorites.

Agreed. We have a lot of bromances, which is great and all, but that seems to be the main existing friendships. I'm just chalking it up to having few female staff and the male staff not knowing how to create good female characters. Like Pixar (to their own admittance).
The trio thing, I don't really mind, but ffs at least DEVELOP them properly! Most of the trios are lacking that, even SRK (on the RiKai side). Making AkuRoku into a trio is fine, but that's all that happened; Nomura just slapped in a third person and called it a day without trying to actually make it WORK.

I think staff members were also fans of Axel and rallied his return. o: I agree that he should have retired a while ago, though.
Yeah, it sucks seeing good characters get overshadowed. :c Despite her (albeit brief) inclusion in KH3D, even important Namine is shoved to the side for the sake of Xion and Roxas.

That's another issue that KH has.

KH has a lot of issues and needs to see a psychiatrist.

I will never buy RAX. I will never believe in RAX. I will never feel attached to RAX. I will never care for RAX. They feel so fake to me honestly, the fakest out of them all (quite ironic). No amount of sugarcoating and painting daisies will convince me that this was a great, sunny, happy, lovable friendship when there are things in context that indicated otherwise. There's just underhandedness and favoritism that...I don't see it as genuine. It's all covered up by the shove down your throat tragedy and drama. It hasn't changed despite me not logging in here for quite a long while.

This, this, so much this. AkuRoku friendship = great. RokuShi friendship = okay. RAX = NO. I love all 3 characters separately but not as a trio.

 

[lalalagirl]

Can I join? I hate Xion @_@

 

[Reika]

Can I join? I hate Xion @_@

Welcome to the club! ^_^ I'm sure Goldy will add you when she can.

 

[Organization_42]

Welcome to our club, lalalagirl!

Spoiler Show

ORGANIZATION_42! ;A;

ZOMG!

HELLO AND WELCOME BACK!!​

My belief that there's differences between the Kairis remains strong. I don't get where they went wrong with Xion's render, but she's the least attractive out of the clones and I can see it. I feel like her face is too narrow? Elongated? Slimmer? Maybe being Sora has something to do with it.

Idk, I don't see it. Kairi and Namine do seem different to me, but I think it's because their hair looks different and they have such distinct personalities. But I don't think Xion's any more or less cute than they are. They all look adorable.

I think Nomura is simply too stuck on the connections and the repeated ideals behind it, instead of actually making individual characters that physically don't resemble the originals nor whose friendships are based on it. Wouldn't it be cool to have, you know, girl friendships? How about a change of pace? Roxas was truly what I would say his own person at first while still being a part of someone else. He had the older, male best friend in Axel, but there was no trio. The closest thing to it was Naminé, but she was her own separate entity simultaneously. It was a very nice, different set-up. This was also when I believed that "parts" of Sora and Kairi would end there. It made sense with the concept of Nobodies after all. That was it. Now it's convoluted as hell.

My impressions from reading some of the interview translations is that Nomura does really like the clones and the complex connections to the same people. Remember he worried that Aqua wouldn't be popular because she had no obvious connections to anybody and wasn't much like the other KH girls? That still surprises me because arguably the most popular character in the games is Axel/Lea and he isn't a clone of anybody either! Even before he got recast as Roxas' BFF (and later Xion's), fans loved him because they loved his character. They enjoyed his snark and the way he effectively maneuvered around three opposing groups of people to come out on top- Team Marluxia, Team Sora, and Team Basement. Okay and his looks too. We liked him before Quinton Flynn provided him with a great voice, though that certainly helped. And yes, he got lots more fans with the tragic Roxas backstory and the equally tragic backstory about his friendship with Isa, so having connections to characters does help, but its the characters themselves and the personalities they're given that make those connections interesting.

Also, yes, KH is lacking in girl friendships! I'd like to see Aqua train Kairi, but it'd be so nice to see Kairi hanging out with girls around the same age as her, like Namine, Selphie, and Olette, the way Sora has Riku. But Idk if we'll get that- maybe if/when Namine and Xion are saved, they'll hang out with Kairi, but I don't see Olette getting more screentime, sadly.

There's the fact that Nomura's also very swayed by fan opinion, so if one character is popular, he'll place them in the forefront or fix what isn't broken to have him/her be more relevant (yes, I'm talking about Axel here). He will ignore the others who are...in my personal opinion, a lot more interesting with diverse looks and personalities. There was potential with the cast that he made. Yet they were wasted basically to focus on favorites.

I think it's more the opinion of the rest of the staff, otherwise we might've seen more Demyx seeing how popular he is.

I explained my feelings of RAX to Reika above. Why would I want to keep fighting/protecting/caring over a friend who's main concern and obsession is blatantly someone else? Why would I want a friend who keeps things from me for their own selfish reasons? Why would I want a friend who would willingly sacrifice me for the sake of the other if there had to be a choice? They all must have some warped sense of what being a real friend means. It fits that they are technically blank slates (Roxas and Xion anyway), yet if their emotions felt that there was no bias and it was more balanced, it would have come across so if you ask me.

I do wonder how KH3 will hold. Is there really going to be more after that still?

Supposedly, KH3 is the end of the Xehanort Saga, and then a new saga starts. This could be a good thing, because it might give the writers a fresh slate and they could hopefully go for a simpler story. They'll still have a lot of characters to work with, but since most of those characters are Keyblade wielders, they could all hang out at the Land of Departure where Sora could call on them when he needs them. Or characters like RAX could serve as allies in Twilight Town the way the Disney character do.

I'm going to throw RAX a bone- they are my least favorite of the trios, but it's more because they weren't what I really wanted to see in Days. I know there's plot holes and Axel's character got warped and sometimes their obliviousness to certain things really, really annoys me...

Roxas: Gosh, Axel, is the Organization really trying to kill me or Xion? Maybe we should run away!
Me: Ya THINK?
Xion: No, no, we can't do that! Where would we go?
Axel: Well, she has a point there.
Me: Idk Xion, where did YOU go for a whole month???
Roxas: Well then, I guess we're not running away.
Me: FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE. Axel told you that there are people back home TRYING TO KILL YOU. WHO CARES WHERE YOU GO? Your lives are in danger! You need to get out!!!
Xion: Let's watch the pretty sunset instead!
Axel: Yeah, and then we can fantasize about winning ice cream contests!
Me: *sobs and facepalms*

...okay, maybe I don't have a defense for them after all. I just think a lot of their scenes together are cute, and I think it would've worked better if Axel had become their friend gradually instead of being their adorkable big brother right away. I don't remember where or when I read this, but I remember someone on KHI compared Axel's behavior in Days vs. CoM as being like a Mafia crimelord or a hired assassin who then comes home to the wife & kids and is a big softie around them. But the problem with this analogy is that someone like that doesn't necessarily have to like children; it's just that they're his kids, his own flesh and blood. They have an established connection and he may have helped raise them too. Roxas and Xion don't have that kind of relationship with Axel; they're just two kids he befriended for no apparent reason.

The idea that Axel had no choice in the matter of training Roxas, and then befriending him because Roxas was one of the only nice people in the Org and helped him remember what it was like to be human- that was a good idea. It just happens so fast that it feels less like he changed and more like that was his true personality all along, and everything in CoM was just a fluke. Again, Square-Enix, please do not tell me that Axel "changed" through Saix constantly saying that he changed- show me that he changed by showing an actual change in his personality, behavior, actions, etc.

How they ended up explaining a Nobody's existence was basically the best thing I liked out of the whole entire mess. Oh, and Kairi about to train as a wielder. It was the only aspect of the game that didn't leave me WTFing.

You shouldn't feel like a hypocrite. I think that you want a particular way of the series handling the female characters while giving them more attention and purpose than being plot devices. Xion's inclusion was not done correctly. You can dislike it. In fact, it could a representation of what not to do.

Yeah, those were two of the best parts of the game. Can I point out that in just one cutscene, Dream Drop Distance expanded the story of Organization and left me feeling more shocked and sympathetic towards the members than an entire game about them?

I know, but I still feel bad. (And it doesn't help that own writing skills aren't exactly stellar, so I feel hypocritical in that regard too. The "show, don't tell" rule is so important and yet so hard to follow.) I feel like a picky eater.

Spoiler Show

I need to remember to NOT visit the TV Tropes page for Days. The annoyance levels it causes is just plain uncomfortable.

On the bright side, with a mod's help, I got the Deconstruction trope removed from the Days page. <3

Good work! *salutes*

We're... SORT of succeeding! xD;

We can do it!

That's the impression KH2 gave off, but KH3D makes me question it now. :/ So, I don't know anymore.

Well, the Ansem SoD who showed up in 3D was time-traveling, so he could've come from anywhere. Okay, I'm going to go with that explanation. I just wasn't sure if Ansem SoD was actually still living in Riku's heart or if it was just some manifestation of Riku's darkness as he battled his past demons. But the former works better for my fanfic so I'll just go with that. Thank you!

That's EXACTLY how I feel! That's what made me a hater for a while: The fandumb! It's ridiculous how pissed people get over fictional characters and stories. I could name plenty of characters I hate, but I could never feel animosity towards the characters' fans. Why must others let it get them so upset? Different strokes for different folks.

Civil debates are fun. xD The arguments, though, have gotten tiring. I'm sick of the anger and insults that fly around when certain characters are mentioned. I'm sick of the fandumbs and hatedumbs making the sane fans and sane haters look bad. I'm sick of having to avoid places involving my favorite characters for fear of what kind of people and responses I'll find there.

Glad to see KHI has gotten better, though perhaps it's because it's less active than it used to be. Which is a bummer. :c But yeah, most other places still house batshit insane fans/haters. Best to just avoid them altogether if possible.

My guess is that it also has something to do with the fan's personality and values. What kind of ships you like, for example, can suggest how you feel about romance in general or what kind of people you find attractive. Different people relate to different characters, and sometimes it's not so much the character getting attacked that bother people, but that the person appears to be attacking something you value or a personality trait you have. Like back in the days of the Kairi debates, when Smile and some of the other Kairi haters would attack her for saying "Sora's completely hopeless without us!" I'd think, "Geez, I make jokes like that with my friends all the time! It's not a big deal! She knows how much he's done for her!"

In Xion's case, well, her story IS admirable- she's kind and sweet and she willingly sacrifices herself for her friends. She doesn't complain to her friends about her problems (despite how many times they've told her that they are willing to listen and help her). She learns that she has a horrible origin and that she has to choose between dying or killing her best friend, and she chooses to go out with a smile. So it may come off to fans that we're attacking all of those positive, wonderful things about her. But I don't believe that anyone here hates people who are kind and caring toward their friends, or brave and selfless in the face of extreme adversity. In real life, we admire those traits in people just as much as Xion's fans would. We just think it could've been written better, or that her character shouldn't have been included at all because she came out of nowhere. At least, that's how I feel. Uh-oh, I'm back to loving Xion; I'd better retreat!

Yeah, the fandom wars have gotten really exhausting. I'm glad I don't participate in them much anymore.

Exactly, and with AkuRoku being so insanely popular, I thought there'd be more people who are on the side of 'Die for My Ship' regarding Xion. There aren't nearly as many haters who hate Xion because of AkuRoku as a lot of people believe, and even LESS so than people who hate Kairi because of SoRiku. It's strange.

Maybe it's because they know they'll get flamed for it, so why bother bringing it up?

That's probably partly because RAX hasn't gotten the development that SRK got. xD; RAX just sort of happened while SRK was alive and well from the start with emphasis on their relationship. Days did a bad job at making a good trio.
I love Xion, but I have to agree. Let her die along with other should-stay-dead characters. :/ Not every character's story arc must continue for eternity, it's okay to let some of them end.

Either that, or reshape her as a side character that occasionally appears to assist Sora & co. I'd be happy with that.

The idea I had, when explained in detail, WAS actually different... but I've completely forgotten what it was. :c

Oh no- Xion must've hired Namine to make you forget! O_O Or maybe the Replispiders are responsible...

Agreed. We have a lot of bromances, which is great and all, but that seems to be the main existing friendships. I'm just chalking it up to having few female staff and the male staff not knowing how to create good female characters. Like Pixar (to their own admittance).

Though Pixar deserves credit- they've made some fantastic female characters even though Merida was their first central protagonist. Jessie, Bo Peep, Mrs. Incredible, Dory, Princess Atta, EVE, Mrs. Potato Head, Colette, Ellie, etc. They don't have as many girls as boys, but the girls they DO create are wonderful.

KH has a lot of issues and needs to see a psychiatrist.

ROFL!

This, this, so much this. AkuRoku friendship = great. RokuShi friendship = okay. RAX = NO. I love all 3 characters separately but not as a trio.

*sobs because it's so hard to find plain old AkuRoku friendship; you either get AkuRoku or RAX*

*keeps on playing the world's smallest violin*

Okay, that not entirely true. Some of the 1.5 Remix gifs that I've seen on KH tumblrs show them being adorkable pals on the clock tower without Xion there. But I'm guessing that won't be a majority of the game. I'll take what I can get and enjoy it.

 

[Reika]

Good work! *salutes*

Never thought I'd see the day. xD It was a small victory.

We can do it!

Yes we can! :,D

Well, the Ansem SoD who showed up in 3D was time-traveling, so he could've come from anywhere. Okay, I'm going to go with that explanation. I just wasn't sure if Ansem SoD was actually still living in Riku's heart or if it was just some manifestation of Riku's darkness as he battled his past demons. But the former works better for my fanfic so I'll just go with that. Thank you!

At this point, just about any theory could be canon lol.

My guess is that it also has something to do with the fan's personality and values. What kind of ships you like, for example, can suggest how you feel about romance in general or what kind of people you find attractive. Different people relate to different characters, and sometimes it's not so much the character getting attacked that bother people, but that the person appears to be attacking something you value or a personality trait you have. Like back in the days of the Kairi debates, when Smile and some of the other Kairi haters would attack her for saying "Sora's completely hopeless without us!" I'd think, "Geez, I make jokes like that with my friends all the time! It's not a big deal! She knows how much he's done for her!"

In Xion's case, well, her story IS admirable- she's kind and sweet and she willingly sacrifices herself for her friends. She doesn't complain to her friends about her problems (despite how many times they've told her that they are willing to listen and help her). She learns that she has a horrible origin and that she has to choose between dying or killing her best friend, and she chooses to go out with a smile. So it may come off to fans that we're attacking all of those positive, wonderful things about her. But I don't believe that anyone here hates people who are kind and caring toward their friends, or brave and selfless in the face of extreme adversity. In real life, we admire those traits in people just as much as Xion's fans would. We just think it could've been written better, or that her character shouldn't have been included at all because she came out of nowhere. At least, that's how I feel. Uh-oh, I'm back to loving Xion; I'd better retreat!

Yeah, the fandom wars have gotten really exhausting. I'm glad I don't participate in them much anymore.

The Kairi thing was kinda different, though; none of us ever disliked Kairi haters, just the ones that took their hate too far (which many of KHI's Kairi haters did, going so far as to make up reasons to hate her and basing some of their hate on fanon rather than canon). And when it comes to haters like that, then I've no problem with being less than respectful to them. Sane haters (and fans) deserve respect, though, even if their opinions disagree with yours (not you specifically, just in general). As long as they're not being dicks about it, why be a dick to them? It's so close-minded. :c

True, and fans' reasoning for loving her are perfectly understandable. Hell, that's why I love her, too. I'm like you; it's difficult for me to hate a nice character, regardless of Sue status. But she's definitely a Tastes Like Diabetes character, so she's just as easy to hate. Similar to Kairi, really, just a more severe and non-shipping case. That, and Xion being that type of character is WHY others hate her: She lacks flaws to balance the positive points. People like her in RL are NOT perfect, and that helps us appreciate their kindness more. Xion doesn't have that. If she did, her tragic story would be tragic to a wider audience.
I'm not trying to say you're wrong (you're not), just expanding on the point. ^^;

Agreed. They really drain ya.

Maybe it's because they know they'll get flamed for it, so why bother bringing it up?

Hating Xion is trendy with half the fandom, though, so people who hate her due to AkuRoku would be more accepted. Not to mention they've probably been accused of it at some point anyway, like all other Xion haters.

Either that, or reshape her as a side character that occasionally appears to assist Sora & co. I'd be happy with that.

That would be okay. A background character that pops in and out once in a while. Considering she IS Sora, in essence, he could probably speak with her in his heart like he did Ven as a child.

Oh no- Xion must've hired Namine to make you forget! O_O Or maybe the Replispiders are responsible...

... That explains it. D8 I HAVE been seeing an awful lot of spiders lately...

Though Pixar deserves credit- they've made some fantastic female characters even though Merida was their first central protagonist. Jessie, Bo Peep, Mrs. Incredible, Dory, Princess Atta, EVE, Mrs. Potato Head, Colette, Ellie, etc. They don't have as many girls as boys, but the girls they DO create are wonderful.

Oh, I agree. xD They've just admitted that the reason they lacked female main characters is because the staff is made up of men and don't know HOW to make one. We got Merida because one of the original directors (and story creator) is a woman. I'm going to go ahead and assume the same for the KH team.

*sobs because it's so hard to find plain old AkuRoku friendship; you either get AkuRoku or RAX*

*keeps on playing the world's smallest violin*

Okay, that not entirely true. Some of the 1.5 Remix gifs that I've seen on KH tumblrs show them being adorkable pals on the clock tower without Xion there. But I'm guessing that won't be a majority of the game. I'll take what I can get and enjoy it.

It really is. ;; I think I've only come across 2 good artists/writers that prefer AkuRoku as a friendship, and only one of them is still active. Canon is just as skimpy. It sucks.