did anybody else... hate Aqua?

[Reika]

And then he wanted to kill him. Lovely.

For a completely different reason than what we are talking about. :/ And he then proceeded to beat himself up for it until he died. It's called mistakes and remorse. I see that as something positive.

This is in a nutshell what I was talking about. They don't show the important stuff, making for the logical explanations to be nothing more than theories and assumptions that leave it feeling even worse than it did before you tried to excuse it to me. So they're all a bunch of dellusional idiots. I can accept that, I just disapprove even more than I did before coming into the thread.
You want me to believe there was distrust, Nomura? Stop shoving them being a happy family until MX came along down my throat. It's called basing stuff, and yes I know you fail at this. You have since KH1. It's no excuse.

I would think implications would be enough. The way they speak and act pretty much imply some of what went on before the start of the game. It's not Nomura's fault if we didn't get it because it wasn't branded on a neon sign or handed to us on a silver platter.

Okay, well I don't see where that says that 'Eraqus was also ready to declare Terra as Master until Master Xehanort told him not to'.
It just looks to me like MX suggested they do an exam before crowning any Masters, while trying to exploit the little weaknesses and doubt Eraqus might already have had. This manipulation is what he did to Terra and Ven, after all.

Agreed. Despite what the letter says, there's nothing to imply that Eraqus made the decision solely on MX's opinion of the matter. MX's opinion was certainly a consideration, but not the basis behind Eraqus's final judgment.

Xehanort reffered to them as Masters in his letters and then raised the issue of the exam.

Actually, he only addressed Aqua and Terra as Masters once:

It was a heavy mantle our Master placed upon your shoulders in naming you Successor, but you have nonetheless persevered and raised two Masters yourself. I know it cannot have been easy.

All of the other times in his letter, he refers to them as Eraqus's pupils.

Eraqus also said he was ready to declare Terra Master in a Heartbeat which seems to indicate either he's bluffing and sweettalking, even if he means that, or he was really going to do this until MX plotted the test that got Terra to use his Darkness, seeing how Aqua had him in several tight spots during their fight.

.... no, he didn't. He said if he had it his way, he would. But he had to make what he thought to be a fair judgment, instead of making a decision based on his personal feelings. That's obviously what he meant when he said that. :/

If I had it my way, I'd make you Master in a second. But, how can I, when you are so obsessed with power?

He loves Terra, and wanted to see Terra be a Master because of that love. But, it wouldn't have been the best decision, logically, in Eraqus's mind. It's like a teacher who gives their favorite student an F on their test; they really care about that student a lot, but that student obviously failed their test, so the teacher has to put personal feelings aside and grade the student fairly. That's pretty much what happened with Eraqus and Terra.

It's not unthinkable to assume that Eraqus really was about to crown them and was doing it out of hospitality to MX or something.

Unthinkable, no. Improbable and illogical, yes.

 

[Smile]

The way they speak and act pretty much imply some of what went on before the start of the game.

And the way they speak and act also imply otherwise, depending on the scene you're watching. Which is why I need that freaking big flashing neon sign telling me which is it.

That's pretty much what happened with Eraqus and Terra.

And it's them having to do this at the freaking Mark of Mastery that makes me facepalm at Eraqus. If he tried to get to Terra numerous times and still failed and STILL lets him take the MoM...
*sigh*

Improbable and illogical, yes.

Experience shows our logics work differently.

 

[Reika]

And the way they speak and act also imply otherwise, depending on the scene you're watching. Which is why I need that freaking big flashing neon sign telling me which is it.

Why, because there are flashback scenes and talks of the good and innocent times they've had in the past? They lived and trained at TLoD for quite a few years, not every flashback or memory is going to reflect the negative aspects as well as the positive.

And it's them having to do this at the freaking Mark of Mastery that makes me facepalm at Eraqus. If he tried to get to Terra numerous times and still failed and STILL lets him take the MoM...
*sigh*

Who says Terra failed numerous times? It wasn't Terra who sucked at keeping his darkness in check at MoM, it was Xehanort that did it to ruin Terra's chances of becoming Master. That's something Terra couldn't control because he wasn't the one doing it. Before then, he probably did okay at controlling his darkness before.
Yes, I know that that would mean Eraqus made his decision based on one minor screw-up that, up until then, Terra was able to avoid pretty well. But, we already know Eraqus is a dick when it comes to the darkness. That's his one major character flaw, and it was a necessary piece for Terra's plot.

 

[Smile]

Why, because there are flashback scenes and talks of the good and innocent times they've had in the past? They lived and trained at TLoD for quite a few years, not every flashback or memory is going to reflect the negative aspects as well as the positive.

Well aware of that but to me, I need to see the good with the bad, especially when all I've seen of Terra is the complete opposite of everything they're blabbering on about.
Xehanort would've had a much harder time to take over Terra if Aqua'd have had a bit more faith in Terra, which led to her suspicions being correct. Ironically.
So yeah seeing WHY the deuce Aqua and Eraqus are so impliedly suspicious of Terra when his scenario screamed otherwise and lo and behold Ven doesn't see any of this would've been nice.

Who says Terra failed numerous times?

Eraqus, right before he declares Terra'd have to share Ven's fate. "Why do all my efforts to reach you fail?! If you can't find it in you to obey, you will simply have to share Ventus's fate!"
That bit.

 

[Ikkin]

I think there's a bit of a false dichotomy being created here, between "Eraqus knew about Terra's darkness all along and did nothing until Xehanort pointed it out" and "Eraqus was completely oblivious about Terra's darkness until Xehanort pointed it out."

This is what was really going on: Eraqus knew about Terra's tendency to obsessively pursue his goals, and probably had been trying to help him overcome that. He just didn't notice that Terra's character flaws were signs of his darkness.

Which explains why his opinion changes so quickly: he didn't learn anything new about Terra. He was just forced to reconsider what he already knew in a different light, and that changed his understanding of Terra's issues completely, to the point where he didn't think he could allow Terra to be a Master yet.

And Aqua, of course, goes through something very similar to that. She probably wouldn't even have been quite so doubtful if she didn't think she was responsible for making sure Terra was okay. =/

 

[Goldpanner]

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say, but failing at explaining (why is it always Ikkin who seems to say the same thing I think so well??)

So imo there wasn't this dark secret distrust, it was just an understanding of the existence of character flaws that made the fall, sadly, not a total shock to him in the end. The signs were there, he just hadn't seen them in that way.

 

[Grey]

Well aware of that but to me, I need to see the good with the bad, especially when all I've seen of Terra is the complete opposite of everything they're blabbering on about.
Xehanort would've had a much harder time to take over Terra if Aqua'd have had a bit more faith in Terra, which led to her suspicions being correct. Ironically.
So yeah seeing WHY the deuce Aqua and Eraqus are so impliedly suspicious of Terra when his scenario screamed otherwise and lo and behold Ven doesn't see any of this would've been nice.

Since when is Aqua to blame for Xehanort taking over Terra's heart and body?

And Terra's scenario showed Terra's true story, so obviously it's going to differ from Aqua's and Eraqus's side. Aqua identifies more with Eraqus about his opinions on Light and Darkness. After all, she is the one whom Eraqus found most qualified for Keyblade Mastery.

And that's one of her flaws--she relies too heavily on Eraqus's teachings than on her own judgment. Eraqus told her that she needed to look out for Terra, and although she initially disagreed to an extent ("He's stronger than you think."), she was convinced through the horrible acts that she believed Terra to be doing that Terra was falling into darkness. That's, like, a big point in the differences between the scenarios--you see each story through the eyes and perceptions of that scenario's character. Aqua and Eraqus shared a similar viewpoint, and therefore it was different from Terra's.

Honestly, I think you're skewed by your perceptions on what is really going on. Why did Aqua have suspicions of Terra? Because she's a teacher's pet to Eraqus, who had similar suspicions.

Eraqus, right before he declares Terra'd have to share Ven's fate. "Why do all my efforts to reach you fail?! If you can't find it in you to obey, you will simply have to share Ventus's fate!"
That bit.

That wasn't explicitly referring to Terra's screw-ups with darkness. Eraqus was saying that all of his attempts to get through to Terra fail. He then says that Terra can't obey him.

The "obey" part should have tipped the viewer off, so that they understood that Eraqus was referring to simply taming Terra, to "reach" Terra and convince him to stop pursuing power so recklessly. Eraqus never said Terra failed to control darkness numerous times, he said that he (Eraqus) failed to get through to Terra in his teachings (or, on the flip-side, that Terra continually failed to understand where Eraqus was coming from).

Which accentuates Terra's flaw. Terra is obsessed with power, and is afraid to lose. He knows darkness is bad, but he lives with it and even gives it wiggle room when Master Xehanort dubs him a "Master." But his obsession with power and fear of losing pushes him to utilize the darkness, and it leads him astray to the point where he helps to kill his Master.

But Oh my God teacher's pet much?! x_x
It drove me nuts with the fact she couldn't process anything other than Eraqus's teachings.
There were many points in time (if you look close enough) where she could have learned a different set of ideas/morals.

That's what her flaw is. She's the "logical" character, and yet she agrees with Eraqus--therefore, her logic is going to be similar to her Master's. Think about it. She obviously agrees the most with Eraqus, and she just became a Master under his teachings. She's not going to suddenly jump ship and disregard what her Master taught her.

And the fact she didn't even try and understand what was going on with Terra (it probably would have helped if she hadn't jumped down his throat about all the "things" he'd done) made me want to headdesk over and over and over. Yeah...some friend.

She lost heart in Terra, but she still cared about him deeply. That much is obvious through what she says to Terra. She's worried he's going to fall into darkness, and so she's calling him out for the suspicious things he's doing because she doesn't want him to become "evil." She may be going about it in a teacher's pet manner, but she's well-intended. She may have her doubts in Terra's way of doing things, but she sacrificed herself to send him back into the realm of light, to keep him from going astray in the realm of darkness. She obviously cares for his well-being, as his friend.

On top of that, it isn't as if she's going to disobey her Master. She just became a Master herself! She's not going to let her judgments get in the way of her new duties as a Master, and so she's going to follow orders because she believes she's doing the right thing, even if her friends disagree with her. Hence why she jumps down Terra's throat about his darkness.

It's like a new cop. He (or she) is always really tough on people, overly-aggressive, and/or nit-picky about their job, because they've just been given a lot of responsibility and are going to prove themselves, to not let those who gave them responsibility down. Aqua is a new cop in Eraqus's police force, essentially.

I think the worst part was the fact she never really developed her own opinions on this Darkness vs. Light controversy, as well as anything. :/

You could say that she doesn't develop her own opinion on Light and Dark, but how can you know for sure that that is true? She could have arrived at her opinion on Light and Darkness on her own, and just happened to agree with Eraqus. Just because she still finds Darkness to be nothing more than hate and rage at the end of the story doesn't mean her opinion hasn't changed.

Or that she's wrong. It's not as if Terra proves that darkness is more than hate and rage. He just exemplifies that one can live with darkness and yet still be a good person.

 

[Ikkin]

Which accentuates Terra's flaw. Terra is obsessed with power, and is afraid to lose. He knows darkness is bad, but he lives with it and even gives it wiggle room when Master Xehanort dubs him a "Master." But his obsession with power and fear of losing pushes him to utilize the darkness, and it leads him astray to the point where he helps to kill his Master.

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment of Terra. Terra's obsessed with his goals and relies on power to achieve them. He also completely refuses to accept failure, which is why Master Xehanort's manipulative declarations that Terra has not actually failed are so tempting.

And I will argue until my face turns blue that Terra fighting Master Eraqus is not an example of Terra going astray. Eraqus was trying to kill Ven. Darkness or no, Terra would never let that happen. Terra himself considers it proof that he's gone astray, but that probably has something to do with the fact that he's completely horrified by the pain he's caused his Master and feels responsible for his death (even though he couldn't have possibly known Xehanort would have shown up like that).

That's what her flaw is. She's the "logical" character, and yet she agrees with Eraqus--therefore, her logic is going to be similar to her Master's. Think about it. She obviously agrees the most with Eraqus, and she just became a Master under his teachings. She's not going to suddenly jump ship and disregard what her Master taught her.

I think the best word to use to describe Aqua's flaw is "dogmatic." She's the star pupil of an ideology based in absolutes, so it's not going to be easy for her to accept that one of her best friends is neither black nor white, but rather a shade of grey.

...which might be why some people find her hard to accept, come to think of it, considering that the internet generally believes that tolerance is the highest virtue... XD;

You could say that she doesn't develop her own opinion on Light and Dark, but how can you know for sure that that is true? She could have arrived at her opinion on Light and Darkness on her own, and just happened to agree with Eraqus. Just because she still finds Darkness to be nothing more than hate and rage at the end of the story doesn't mean her opinion hasn't changed.

Or that she's wrong. It's not as if Terra proves that darkness is more than hate and rage. He just exemplifies that one can live with darkness and yet still be a good person.

The biggest problem with saying "Aqua's opinion about Light and Dark doesn't change" is the fact that Aqua isn't given a single reason to change her opinion about either of them all too much. She's willing to listen to Cinderella's Fairy Godmother's claim that darkness cannot be destroyed by light, but the Fairy Godmother never suggests that darkness shouldn't be destroyed in some other way. And that's the single biggest reason to change her perspective she's ever given - she never sees darkness used for good or light used for evil, and she never sees darkness manifest as anything other than negative emotions.

She does change an awful lot in her method of dealing with it, though. Compare "That doesn't sound like what the Master told you to do" with "I heard the Master was struck down" - the latter is much less confrontational, and gives Terra a chance to speak without immediately being put on the defensive. Also, in the latter confrontation, she gives specific advice (ie. "Xehanort is manipulating you by making you fight - don't let him") rather than generic and rather useless platitudes ("You shouldn't put yourself so close to the darkness").

 

[Grey]

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment of Terra. Terra's obsessed with his goals and relies on power to achieve them. He also completely refuses to accept failure, which is why Master Xehanort's manipulative declarations that Terra has not actually failed are so tempting.

Isn't that sort of what I was saying, though? Terra wants to achieve his goals and relies on power to do so, but wouldn't he then want more power in order to achieve said goals? Eraqus himself says Terra's too obsessed with power.

And I will argue until my face turns blue that Terra fighting Master Eraqus is not an example of Terra going astray. Eraqus was trying to kill Ven. Darkness or no, Terra would never let that happen. Terra himself considers it proof that he's gone astray, but that probably has something to do with the fact that he's completely horrified by the pain he's caused his Master and feels responsible for his death (even though he couldn't have possibly known Xehanort would have shown up like that).

I must have been thinking along the terms of the game when I said this, then, because I agree. It's just that Terra himself says he was pushed astray by the darkness when he explains to Aqua about his mistakes, such as killing Eraqus.

I think the best word to use to describe Aqua's flaw is "dogmatic." She's the star pupil of an ideology based in absolutes, so it's not going to be easy for her to accept that one of her best friends is neither black nor white, but rather a shade of grey.

...which might be why some people find her hard to accept, come to think of it, considering that the internet generally believes that tolerance is the highest virtue... XD;

I'd say that's a good word to describe her.

The biggest problem with saying "Aqua's opinion about Light and Dark doesn't change" is the fact that Aqua isn't given a single reason to change her opinion about either of them all too much. She's willing to listen to Cinderella's Fairy Godmother's claim that darkness cannot be destroyed by light, but the Fairy Godmother never suggests that darkness shouldn't be destroyed in some other way. And that's the single biggest reason to change her perspective she's ever given - she never sees darkness used for good or light used for evil, and she never sees darkness manifest as anything other than negative emotions.

Well, right. I was arguing that there isn't much reason to complain about how she didn't take a unique stance on Light and Darkness. She takes a more generic stance (Light good, Dark bad) in the series, but that doesn't weaken her character or make her opinion wrong.

And yeah, she isn't ever given evidence that Darkness is in fact good and that Light may be bad or anything. Even Terra, who is the one who "went astray," claims that Darkness is bad (or perhaps more accurately, that it leads to evil).

 

[Ikkin]

Isn't that sort of what I was saying, though? Terra wants to achieve his goals and relies on power to do so, but wouldn't he then want more power in order to achieve said goals? Eraqus himself says Terra's too obsessed with power.

I guess I'm just not sure why we should believe Eraqus. He misunderstands Terra's darkness pretty badly, and his belief that darkness is evil would cause him to see Terra's flaws as more evil-aligned than they actually are.

And, yeah, Terra wants to gain the power he believes is necessary to get rid of his darkness. But, the difference is, if Terra's shown a way to get rid of the darkness that doesn't involve power, he'll drop the focus on power and focus obsessively on whatever it is that will help him succeed.

I must have been thinking along the terms of the game when I said this, then, because I agree. It's just that Terra himself says he was pushed astray by the darkness when he explains to Aqua about his mistakes, such as killing Eraqus.

Heh, we seem to be agreeing a lot. My point there was, basically, that Terra's interpretation is wrong. He thinks the darkness is evil, and feels incredibly guilty, so he blames his darkness for what happened to Eraqus when it really wasn't his fault.