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Did anyone else not really like the nobodies?



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It's something I've always wondered. The whole Unpopular Opinion thread revealed many had unique or similar dislikes so I decided to expand.
I've always wondered if I was the only one. To quote myself from the thread:

Me said:
I DO NOT LIKE THE NOBODIES

Not just as enemies or characters but as a concept as well. They were supposed to be a new big enemy in KH2 but we hardly seen them. Not just the Organization but we hardly even seen the freakin lesser nobodies either. They had no presence what-so-freakin-ever.
On the ground level it idea makes sense. A heartless is made, the heart is lost, and the body still living doesn't fade away entirely. But it has been handled so poorly in my opinion that I'd have rather done without.

The only time I enjoyed any nobodies was the ones present in Chain of Memories because every one of them was intriguing. There was double crossing, triple crossing, etc. But at the time they weren't known as nobodies. (if you could the GBA version)
Then I got KH2 and I hardly saw this new concept and what I did see was nowhere near the enjoyable villains I was introduced to in CoM. Especially Axel. CoM is the only time I liked his character and will always be.

Then there was the whole "we dont exist but we do" bullshit. It was BS in KH2 and it seems like every handheld title sense went out of it's way to say that was BS with DDD finally bluntly stating so.
Its like each handheld title had to fix and explain the backstory and mess of KH2 rectifying it while trying to build up a new villain. I count this for both series story and nobodies themselves.

Then there is this recompletion stuff. I dont care how early in time it was stated it's dumb. What was the purpose of beating these big bad beings when they're only going to come back and be a true threat as humans getting the focus they didn't while as nobodies?
Recompletion itself also seems incredibly redundant when Xehanort's main troll/cheat now is time travel. If he was gonna summon past versions in the first place then why bother using this recompletion as an excuse to revive them? In turn if you was gonna recomplete them then why bother with the time travel crap? Only one was needed not both. (which makes it sadder with the third replica alternative)

All in all I feel the nobodies was a good idea on paper but poorly handled and now an enemy and concept all but ignored. It makes me wonder why we had nobodies in the first place and their introduction has done nothing but contribute the complicated mess of Sora-Ven-Roxas-Vanitas and Xehanort-Xemnas-Ansem-Apprentice-Terra.
Then you got people like Xigbar with seeds of Xehanort despite having lost his heart (which is what Xehanort seeds from what I've come to understand) when turning into a nobody.
Then theres the whole mess of Roxas running around with Soras body while he himself is still running around in a yet to be explained or identified state/physical form. (dont throw "walking heart" at me that's just a fan term used by staff and some others)

At this point I feel the fan alternative I saw online was better. Just making the Organization the former apprentices of the Ansem from KH1. Like Ansem himself they would be humanoid/sentient heartless that have devoured the hearts & stolen the bodies of people steeped in darkness. (add on giving them all yellow eyes to show their heartless nature and you got something neat)

And before it's mentioned you could still keep Roxas via replica logic.

Does anyone else have misgivings or disappointments about the whole nobody thing? I mean you could still keep the same loveable characters, but as humans, and still get the same story at this point.
 
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Lonbilly

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Re: Did anyone else no really like the nobodies?

I feel like you summed up my main issue with Nobodies (being one of KH2's main faults). Like you said, on paper, it's a great concept. I love the idea that when Sora became a Heartless, Roxas was created. I love the idea that Nobodies are supposed to be foils to Heartless. The problem is, they don't really feel that way. Maybe it's because Nobodies have a significantly lower amount of creatures milling about, maybe its because certain Nobodies like Demyx and Luxord would have worked better as regular old humans, etc. but the way the Nobodies were handled in KH2 seemed... just wrong.

I mean, CoM is technically out first venture with Nobodies, and even though we didn't know they were Nobodies, I loved how the Organization worked in CoM, so much so that I wish CoM story either could have been implemented in KH2 instead, or vice versa. Throw in the Game of Thrones-like plot of CoM with this whole "we gotta stop this evil Org!" plot, and I feel KH2 would have benefited greatly from it. Instead of the reason Sora had to stop them being "oh no they're evil and want hearts and omg look at what they are doing" it could have been more like "oh no the power struggle between this group is kind of causing chaos in the worlds and everyone is caught in the crossfire etc." or something along those lines.

The problem is, Heartless are woven really well into pretty much every game. KH1, main antagonist. KH2, still a threat, so still something to worry about, especially at Hollow Bastion's midway point. CoM and Re:coded - more there for something to fight but still present better than Nobodies. Days, Roxas and Xion are destroying all the emblems for an artificial KH. Even in BbS, where they only appear in the Secret Episode, they had a bigger and much more well done presence than Nobodies in KH2.

Maybe if Nobodies had appeared more often throughout KH2, with many more designs than just like... seven, they could have felt more integrated. Maybe if some of the end boss's in worlds were more frequently Nobodies, and I could have gotten behind it. Maybe if they felt more like foils to Heartless themselves instead of just being something created from becoming a Heartless.

I just never felt threatened by Nobodies, whereas I always felt threatened by Heartless and Unversed. And literally, the Nobodies are only really relevant for the very beginning of the game, and then very end of the game.

I dunno, that's just my opinion.
 

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Re: Did anyone else no really like the nobodies?

I only think the Nobodies are overrated.
 

kuraudoVII

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Re: Did anyone else no really like the nobodies?

I just wished the Nobodies were handled much better. The writing in Kingdom Hearts II ranged from subpar to outright terrible at times (though admittedly, the translation for the game wasn't the best compared to some other titles, either) so an explanation on who they were was intriguing during the first playthrough, but leaves far too many questions left unanswered and too many issues such as the whole "We don't have feelings except when we actually do!" shoved in your face. They also had absolutely no presence in that game and I feel like this was a major shot in the foot for reasons that a lot of people have already mentioned.
 

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Re: Did anyone else no really like the nobodies?

Nobodies were overrated and they were the best plot device of COM and days, the stories were more involved than II because they were a constant and could show up anytime. They were underutilized. And I agree that the replicas and time travel made the recompletion sort of redundant however recompletion gave every nobody, Axel especially, a chance at redemption. Xion needs to get a heart to make replicas relevant and finally, time travel can be used in a different way (turn it around on xehanort)

Although the nobodies shouldn't have gotten a second chance after the circlejerk that was sacrifice and death and anger of II, which was basically a soap opera in an attempt to be edgy but that is another discussion.
 

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Re: Did anyone else no really like the nobodies?

Nobodies were overrated and they were the best plot device of COM and days, the stories were more involved than II because they were a constant and could show up anytime. They were underutilized. And I agree that the replicas and time travel made the recompletion sort of redundant however recompletion gave every nobody, Axel especially, a chance at redemption. Xion needs to get a heart to make replicas relevant and finally, time travel can be used in a different way (turn it around on xehanort)

Although the nobodies shouldn't have gotten a second chance after the circlejerk that was sacrifice and death and anger of II, which was basically a soap opera in an attempt to be edgy but that is another discussion.
Agreed, they worked so well in CoM.
 

12kez90

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Re: Did anyone else no really like the nobodies?

Also the term "Nobody" doesn't really fit them. "Remnants" is more appropriate. Also it's not like I disliked them, just that they were severely underused. To the point where I almost forgot they existing.(no pun intended)
 
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Chuman

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Re: Did anyone else no really like the nobodies?

Um, they are literally the bodies leftover of a person while the hearts become heartless. My only issue is the contradictory name which madly pisses me off.
 

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Re: Did anyone else no really like the nobodies?

Wow more shared the opinion than I thought. Cool. haha :biggrin:

BufferAndLoad said:
I only think the Nobodies are overrated.
Definitely overrated and far to fanserviced for characters that not only barely appear but barely affect the stories they are in. CoM was the only time you really saw them influencing anything. Days just had you hanging around with them in the Grey Room and Xemnas sitting in his chair smirking all damn day. (it was Axel, Xion and Roxas that carried Days story with the focus on Xion, a replica, rather than the nobodies)

Chuman said:
Um, they are literally the bodies leftover of a person while the hearts become heartless. My only issue is the contradictory name which madly pisses me off.
I think thats what he was getting at. haha
Their name doesn't fit and remnants would make more sense since a nobody is what remains of someone that became a heartless.

Chuman said:
however recompletion gave every nobody, Axel especially, a chance at redemption.
IMO that isn't redemption but pure and total fanservice. Especially when you throw in Axels keyblade which is as forced as hell.
 

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Re: Did anyone else no really like the nobodies?

In my honest opinion, I like the Nobodies. But I concur with the notion that they could have been handled better. Yes, some of the Organization members felt like regular old humans, perhaps because they eventually grew a heart, but the point of KH2 was to introduce us to a group of individuals that, in the outside were human, but in the inside lacked humanity: a heart. The only thing moving them is the memory of having a heart, and that they have the power to acquire a new one, but have to fight for it.
Like lonbilly said: Nobodies look better on paper, but when they were executed, they weren't as great as they were described. And look: we haven't fought Nobodies since KH2, another reason why Nobodies are kind of failing as a threat: they're not getting enough exposure.

I mean, CoM is technically out first venture with Nobodies, and even though we didn't know they were Nobodies, I loved how the Organization worked in CoM, so much so that I wish CoM story either could have been implemented in KH2 instead, or vice versa. Throw in the Game of Thrones-like plot of CoM with this whole "we gotta stop this evil Org!" plot, and I feel KH2 would have benefited greatly from it. Instead of the reason Sora had to stop them being "oh no they're evil and want hearts and omg look at what they are doing" it could have been more like "oh no the power struggle between this group is kind of causing chaos in the worlds and everyone is caught in the crossfire etc." or something along those lines.
^^^ This is technically still happening with the Xehanorganization, but the fact that Master Xehanort has monopolized the spotlight kind of overshadows the possible plots Youngnort, Braig and Saix might have.

I only think the Nobodies are overrated.
I think they're underrated, to be honest.

I just wished the Nobodies were handled much better. The writing in Kingdom Hearts II ranged from subpar to outright terrible at times (though admittedly, the translation for the game wasn't the best compared to some other titles, either) so an explanation on who they were was intriguing during the first playthrough, but leaves far too many questions left unanswered and too many issues such as the whole "We don't have feelings except when we actually do!" shoved in your face. They also had absolutely no presence in that game and I feel like this was a major shot in the foot for reasons that a lot of people have already mentioned.
Not only is the translation bad, but also the plot was written bad. We have to remember that this game suffered from a rushed production, meaning the product was going to suffer serious quality defects, and said defects would be carried over to a rushed localization.

Nobodies were overrated and they were the best plot device of COM and days, the stories were more involved than II because they were a constant and could show up anytime. They were underutilized. And I agree that the replicas and time travel made the recompletion sort of redundant however recompletion gave every nobody, Axel especially, a chance at redemption. Xion needs to get a heart to make replicas relevant and finally, time travel can be used in a different way (turn it around on xehanort)

Although the nobodies shouldn't have gotten a second chance after the circlejerk that was sacrifice and death and anger of II, which was basically a soap opera in an attempt to be edgy but that is another discussion.
CoM's plot was handled better. Re: CoM made CoM even better. And I concur with everyone that has said that CoM was more interesting that KH2. It's Sora walking into a mysterious castle prompted by a robed figure, traveling through his memories with the use of cards. As he progresses, he begins to forget important bits of memories and they're getting replaced by a group of rebels in order to sort of "mind control" him so that they can have an advantage against the organization they belonged to.
^^^ That in itself is more interesting than you're typical "chosen hero must save world". In this case, there's a small dosis of "chosen hero must save himself from himself".
 

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ot only is the translation bad, but also the plot was written bad. We have to remember that this game suffered from a rushed production
It saddens me how few know this and still consider KH2 some developed perfection.
 

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Let's not forget how it had absolutely no post-game upon it's initial release. Just Sephiroth.

Even DDD has replay value.
Well it did for one of us anyway. I hated the gameplay so much one playthrough is all I got. lol
But point still stands since it had more to offer post credits. Hell Sephiroth doesn't even count as post for KH2 since you can beat him any time after the final visit to Radiant Garden.
 

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It saddens me how few know this and still consider KH2 some developed perfection.

lol I've never read any opinion like that, hehe. x) But you can tell KH2 suffered from a rushed production: the entire games feels awkward. The contrast between the original KH & CoM with KH2 is BIG! There was intrigue and coherence in the original KH and CoM. KH2 just tried to be interesting and intriguing, but wasn't as well narrated as its predecessors.
 

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lol I've never read any opinion like that, hehe. x) But you can tell KH2 suffered from a rushed production: the entire games feels awkward. The contrast between the original KH & CoM with KH2 is BIG! There was intrigue and coherence in the original KH and CoM. KH2 just tried to be interesting and intriguing, but wasn't as well narrated as its predecessors.

Furthermore KH 2 was also way more flashy looking and "over-the-top" in terms of special effects and fireworks, which may have also contributed to the initial impression of it being "better" when in reality it was just a much more elaborate show of effects to mask that it had less substance at the core.
The sometimes simply awful dialogue and botched pacing of the story on top also didn't help of course.

This is especially true for the original vanilla KH2.
After I finally got to play KH 2 FM with the 2.5 HD package, I can safely say that while it doesn't improve the game to "masterpiece" it does add quite some nice stuff gameplay-wise and makes the story at least a little more coherent and gives the supposed villains more screentime by adding the occassional discussions of the Org-members in the throne room scenes, much like Maleficent's villain council had their scenes in KH 1.
Compared directly to the Final Mix, vanilla KH 2 almost feels like an imcomplete patchwork.
 

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Furthermore KH 2 was also way more flashy looking and "over-the-top" in terms of special effects and fireworks, which may have also contributed to the initial impression of it being "better"
It basically suffered form the "shonen phase" that swept the early 2000s. The final mix certinaly helped it but I only considered it helped in terms if gameplay because it's not possible to make the game an actual challenge and it added the Roxas battle vanilla should've had.

As for the rest. Extra bosses, scenes, etc. I didn't feel that those helped it at all. But thats another topic in of itself. Gonna try to keep this topic focused on nobodies.
 

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What I really don't like about the nobodies is the way they are shown.
Okay, we have a new enemy so the players won't get bored! But oh well, let's, like, never show them except for in two or three worlds, make them pretty much completely stupid (they are the body that's left...but they don't exist!!! but they do! but they don't! but- CUT IT ALREADY!).
I liked the idea that if your heart falls into the darkness, something has to happen with the body that disappears as well. But I really don't like this whole "they don't exist and don't feel...oh, the Organization shows emotions? Eeerrrrr, this is because they remember having feelings, yyeaaaaaah!!!" thingy. It sounds stupid as if no second thought was put into the nobody-concept. :(
 

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I don't like the whole we don't exist biz(it annoyed me every time they brought it up), the whole lacking emotion didn't bother me because CoM hinted at the truth with Axel. Kh2 went out of its way to contradict itself(more so with FM) so I wasn't really surprised by DDD's revelation.
 
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Hakan Xatos

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It's funny because I think if KH2 had waves of Nobodies on each world like the ones in the Cavern of Remembrance and had them respawn they would be most OP species. Who else had tougher waves? The 1000 Heartless were cool but pretty easy. I don't remember the Unversed and Dream Eaters being all that difficult either.

Reiterating what has been said before is that the lack of Nobodies and plot is what hurts them. Heartless, Unversed and Dream Eaters all had dominant roles in a game. Nobodies were swept aside because Heartless were actually more important to the plot of KH2. They had no real purpose in "their" own game. For instance:
Heartless ~ Were consuming the hearts of the worlds in KH1
Unversed ~ Supposed to strengthen Ventus
Dream Eaters ~ Inhabitants of the Sleeping Worlds
Nobodies ~ Corralling Heartless so that Sora could kill them...?

It would actually have been better if the only Nobodies were the greater Nobodies that made up Org. 13 and they had control over Heartless from the beginning. This would also simplify the Nobodies origins and traits as theories rather than facts. For instance the whole "not having emotions thing" probably got started because lesser Nobodies didn't express them. So greater Nobodies assumed they were the same way and when they started expressing emotion and getting their hearts back it's because "we're special Nobodies." It just sounds like Org. 13 and lesser nobodies are really different species at that point. Without lesser Nobodies you can say that Org. 13 just theorized that they didn't have emotions and lost their hearts. Then you can conclude that Org. 13 made a mistake with their theory because they were the first of their kind.

Simple origins are key. The Unversed are a species that come from Vanitas' emotions that he controls. Pretty simple. Dream Eaters consume dreams in the Sleeping Worlds. Just as simple. The Heartless have a more complicated but well detailed background. The Nobodies were just supposed to be the Heartless opposite and had a specific set of rules to follow. However the stories of Days, KH2 and DDD called for breaking those rules for plot reasons.

So to conclude the Nobodies are the most powerful species in my opinion. Their origin and the differences between the lesser and the greater Nobodies is convoluted to say the least. Probably should've been the only species in KH2 or not appear at all save for Org. 13. So all in all they were good enemies to fight and their designs to match the respective Org. 13 members are cool, but they were totally misrepresented in the game and lacked in appearance. I really like them and would want to fight Nobodies again but at the same time I'm not sure how that would work. Hopefully this makes sense because I just spouted opinions without proofreading lol
 

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I don't like the whole we don't exist biz(it annoyed me every time they brought it up), the whole lacking emotion didn't bother me because CoM hinted at the truth with Axel. Kh2 went out of its way to contradict itself(more so with FM) so I wasn't really surprised by DDD's revelation.

In retrospect, this one is almost funny as in hindsight it is exactly the fact that the "we don't exist/cannot truly feel"-mantra gets repeated and hammered down so often that shows it is in fact a repeatedly used suggestive brainwashing technique freely going by the premise that if you repeat a lie often enough and with enough force people will eventually believe it and continue to believe it.

That KH 2 "went out of its way" to contradict itself with this may actually have been deliberate in order to stir up debate, and hoo was it one of the most hotly discussed topics back in the days when KH 2 was still fresh and Days just on the horizon with BBS not yet an issue.

The having emotions or not with the Nobodies was always an iffy issue, unlike the fact that they had no hearts which still remains true as they start out with none.
The only thing DDD changes is to reveal that there is a method for Nobodies to gain a heart that is different than the one Xemnas claimed to be the only possibility (which was in itself a lie already too).
KH 2 and surrounding supplementary material only state that Nobodies have no heart, it does not say anything about this state being permanently unchangeable.
The iffy issue with the emotions got finally cleared up with DDD, although hints had been certainly placed earlier during the series and parts of the fandom theorized all along that the "we don't really exist"-stuff was bogus.

---

As for the Nobodies rarely appearing during KH 2 itself, I'd say in this case they have written themselves into a corner as it is explicitly stated that Nobodies are decidedly fewer in overall numbers compared to Heartless (not every heart falling to Darkness produces a Nobody, but every heart falling produces a Heartless).
So in-universe and in correlation with the plot, encountering fewer Nobodies than Heartless during the game is actually reasonable, but the gameplay aspect obviously suffered for it.
 
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