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Did you like the direction that the developers took Kingdom Hearts?



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Squood!

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We only ever saw the one way to use it before the whole Lich thing. No right way or wrong way, just a way of using it. There could have been multiple ways of using it in a way that could have saved the others, but at present time we don't even know. I’m convinced he only wrote in the whole “wrong way/taboo” angle just to have an excuse for why Sora disappears at the end of KH3.
Yes, we did see the one way.

And the way Sora used to go after the Lich is framed in the opposite way as that one way which is our only means of comparison.

That and what YX says. "Traversing Hearts to reach worlds, not traversing worlds to reach Hearts"

The way seen in DDD and with Ven is the proper way, the way used in the Lich segment is the "wrong" way.
 

Chie

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Also, we explicitly know that you can't change the past with time travel.

When Sora does his thing, time repeats as if it hadn't happened before, and the things that happened before now don't happen.

This goes against all the rules, so Sora clearly broke something. That's how you know he did it wrong.
 

KudoTsurugi

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Yes, we did see the one way.

And the way Sora used to go after the Lich is framed in the opposite way as that one way which is our only means of comparison.

That and what YX says. "Traversing Hearts to reach worlds, not traversing worlds to reach Hearts"

The way seen in DDD and with Ven is the proper way, the way used in the Lich segment is the "wrong" way.
And where did the writers choose to put this information of the wrong way? Same place as the Anti-Aqua fight, waking Ven, fighting Vanitas and the paopu scene. Shoving it to right at the very end of the game. If it was hinted at beforehand, or they at least mentioned right and wrong ways to use it back at Yen Sid’s tower on any of the times they were there instead of just “you can't help Riku, go get power of waking first”, I wouldn't have minded in retrospect. The moments themselves are fine. Its when they happen that bugs me.

Also, we explicitly know that you can't change the past with time travel.

When Sora does his thing, time repeats as if it hadn't happened before, and the things that happened before now don't happen.

This goes against all the rules, so Sora clearly broke something. That's how you know he did it wrong.
Now that is actually a better reason. I can accept that as a reason for him to disappear because its rules were established in DDD. But even when Sora went back to fight Terranort, events still played out the same. He still goes to fight Aqua and Ven alongside Vanitas. If anything, it was more like a delay than a proper change in the timeline.
 

Chie

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It's weird because it's "broken", I think. (Not that this is clear in the moment at all.) That's why some things happen identically as if they'd never happened and then other times it feels like the characters remember what happened. Time doesn't really make sense at the point of the break. And that's why Sora could eventually only be spat out onto the other side of reality itself, there was no proper place for him.
 

Squood!

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It's like loading a save state on an emulator to do something different, but the game actually loads slightly before the state and makes you watch your previous actions until the moment you made the save state.

Oh, and it's not on an emulator of any kind and it's legit forcing said save state
 
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So, wouldn't the moment the guardians of light lose to Terranort already be the past (and unable to be changed) by the time Sora goes back? Though one might think time travel has different mechanics for different methods.
 

Zackarix

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Ideally I wish they could have kept the melancholic fairy tale atmosphere, but it's easy fantasize about might-have-beens.

I think my least favorite part of the direction the series has taken is how it seems to shift on a whim. Say what you will about KHUX and the Keyblade War, but they're built on already established lore and feel like they're setting up the next saga. And then KH4 introduces Verum Rex and Unreality, which intentionally don't feel like part of the same universe. Suddenly they're what KH4 is going to be based around.

But maybe spending so much time setting up future arcs is part of the problem. Video games take years to develop, and in the meantime creative priorities can shift. But having multi-game arcs means committing to certain plot elements years in advance, even if you've lost interest in them. That's what happened to KH3 - having a final confrontation with Xehanort and bringing back the hurting characters had several games of build-up, but by the time they were actually writing that story interests had shifted. Resulting in KH3 being a game that's being pulled in two directions, on one side you have the pre-existing obligations, and on the other you have the new stuff they want to get to ASAP.
 

Chie

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Yeah, I mean, the way it's been ever since X has not been how Nomura naturally writes this series. Even if things are always being built up, we can see that happen in real time next to other things if we get a game every year or two. The current model is not what he's used to or how KH was made to be told.

Like, I remember when it seemed like whatever a "worldline" was was going to be very important, since that was talked about mysteriously in the secret reports in KH3. It's been five years since then and everything released since just keeps adding more mysterious implications onto the pile. Which I actually do like, but at least have it happening in the middle of an actual Kingdom Hearts game, so that parts of the story can still be happening at the same time.
 

Squood!

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So, wouldn't the moment the guardians of light lose to Terranort already be the past (and unable to be changed) by the time Sora goes back? Though one might think time travel has different mechanics for different methods.
Yes.

Which is why it's a big deal that Sora basically broke a taboo of nature. That taboo being you CAN'T rewrite events destined to happen.
 
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Yes.

Which is why it's a big deal that Sora basically broke a taboo of nature. That taboo being you CAN'T rewrite events destined to happen.
In DDD, YX says "You can move through time, but time itself is immovable (...) and you cannot rewrite the events that are destined to happen". The way it was worded seemed to infer it was impossible, not that it was forbidden.

Your explanation or something to that effect might be used to justify Xehanort appearing in Quadratum as a young man, at least if that turns out to be a fact and not a case of a one-off celebratory illustration like Sora sitting on thrones and whatnot.
 

Chie

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In DDD, YX says "You can move through time, but time itself is immovable (...) and you cannot rewrite the events that are destined to happen". The way it was worded seemed to infer it was impossible, not that it was forbidden.
It is impossible. Also, Unreality doesn't exist, it's fictional. So someone who did an impossible thing was sent to a place that isn't real.

It is perhaps strange that MoM foresaw the altered version. But maybe that's the only version that exists when observing it from outside of it?
 

UkeSora

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I feel like Kingdom Hearts has no direction whatsoever; Nomura just does what he thinks is cool as he goes along.
 

Guernsey

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It sometimes feels as though that the series is trying to be more "complex" than it actually is. The story was never complicated but it does have an exhaustive storytelling telling style that makes it seem more grandiose(?) in scale. There is something to be said about having more episodic approach to storytelling.
 

KudoTsurugi

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It is impossible. Also, Unreality doesn't exist, it's fictional. So someone who did an impossible thing was sent to a place that isn't real.

It is perhaps strange that MoM foresaw the altered version. But maybe that's the only version that exists when observing it from outside of it?
So the version of events where the Guardians live was what was supposed to happen before Xehanort/Terranort tried pulling a beatdown victory? Interesting thought🤔

But if that were true, you’d think Xehanort would be the one disappearing at the end for breaking world order rather than Sora. But then we probably wouldn’t have KH4 as we know it.
 

SweetYetSalty

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I agree with a lot of what others have already said. For me personally I only follow this series for the characters. The storytelling and lore lost me when we reached BBS. The Mark of Mastery and Keyblade lore was the beginning of the end for the story but thankfully the characters are still charming enough to carry me through it.

As for the series as a whole my opinions have greatly changed from when I first joined this forum. Somethings I didn't like much in the past I've grown to appreciate and love, while other things I've loved or praised in the past I've gone back on and and am now looking at my old post saying "I actually praised this? It sucks." and most of that comes from KH3. One of the biggest complaints in KH3 is how Sora isn't driving the series anymore despite the game telling us he's needed. Ironically one of the few things Sora was driven to do in KH3 (revive Roxas) was taken by another character in a total offscreen arc that had little to do with Sora at all, and it's something I've grown to despise in a love/hate relationship. So even when it's an arc that involves him he's a bystander.

The big bad of KH3 isn't even a Sora villain. He's a Wayfinder Trio foe and if this was really a character driven series they would/should have been the ones to deal with Master Xehanort in the end. And that's the issue. Everyone talks about how bloated the cast is and characters not being relevant anymore but that same argument applies to Sora and Riku, the two main protagonist. Riku did absolutely nothing in KH3. What makes him so valuable anymore beyond being Sora's best friend?

And that leads into the Union X stuff. It just creates so many plotholes. Nearly every Organization member was a Keyblade wielder according to the new lore minus the old scientists. So why did they need Roxas? Why did they feel the need to make a failsafe like Xion? They had a 'prodigy' Like Marluxia right in front of them. The original Organization XIII was ruined by their backstabbing and politics over one another, but now with the new lore they just look hilariously incompetent. I can't wait for the cutscenes to explain why they never used them. Or why Marluxia had to die twice to get his memories back.

My biggest complaint is we keep digging into the past to buildup the series instead of just moving forward in the present with modern day threats and crisis. That's why Sora and friends don't feel like they are needed anymore. They keep fighting these old fossils that have been around before they were born and have no direct conflict with. First Master Xehanort and now the Master of Masters. I feel like that is so limiting for the characters involved. One of the reasons I like the Yozora stuff is at least it's present day content, at least for now.

I actually enjoyed Chi/Union X up until Ventus showed up with Marluxia and Larxene. Remaking old characters into new ones because Nomura has clearly gotten bored with the old KH universe and wants to tell a new story, but instead of using Final Fantasy characters as the vehicle to gain a audience he's using the KH characters. Subject X being one of the biggest offenders using a fan favorite like Lea/Axel to garner interest in a character who doesn't even have a identity yet.

While I'm on that subject, one thing I've changed my opinion on. I'm more leaning on Roxas and Xion, two characters I still love, taking more of small backseat role. Simply because of how I look at how Axel's been written since DDD and I don't want that for either of them. If the direction was different I'd love RAX to still be around with big roles but now I'm just terrified they'll be written in a way where I'm sick of them. Just show them eating ice cream and playing on the beach and I'm good.

Before I just write a massive essay I'll give the tldr version, no I do not like the current direction. But I still love the series. If I didn't I would have quit. hopefully the new saga is good now that Nomura is more interested in it.
 
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Riku has one game where he doesn't do much and suddenly his value is at risk.
Yes, that's a problem! One of the main protagonists should have an active part in the story, not be pushed to the wayside. Which I think ties into what a lot of the people who aren't satisfied with the direction the series has taken have been saying: the scope of events was expanded too far beyond our main characters.
 

Theart

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I have a love-hate relationship with this series. There's so much that's messy and overly convoluted about it and that's only gotten worse as time has gone on, but there's also a lot of charm and nostalgia that I have for it almost twenty-two years after first becoming a fan.

Am I a fan of the direction that the devs have taken KH as a series? In general, no. I miss the presence of the Final Fantasy characters in the story, for instance. I miss the days of KH1, where the Disney worlds were all actively part of the main narrative in some fashion- not just because the initial villains were Maleficent and her crew, but because plot relevant events for Sora would happen at these worlds throughout and help build up key moments later in the OC worlds like Hollow Bastion. And to beat on a very old and worn drum, I'm as tired as anyone of seeing Kairi get the short end of the straw as a character.

However there are things and curious moments that I've started to notice more lately about the more recent entries in the series such as Dark Roads that suggest that Nomura might finally start addressing some of the lingering issues I've had with the series in the back half of the Seeker of Darkness Saga in the Lost Master Saga, though this is something we'll have to wait and see for when KH4 finally releases.

Namely, I'm hoping these potential teases of late lead to a more nuanced look at the conflict of Light vs Dark and more insight to the frequently self-contradictory nature of the series presenting Sora as being both "an dull, ordinary boy" and as being essentially a cosmic anomaly such potent ramifications for everyone else in the series that they also recognize "it has to be him" who saved everyone else by the end of KH3 and potentially the "Child of Destiny" too.

If the next saga is meant to be more of a deconstruction on a lot of what was crucial to the SoD Saga, I'll be curious to see where Nomura goes with that.
 

Squood!

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Yes, that's a problem! One of the main protagonists should have an active part in the story, not be pushed to the wayside. Which I think ties into what a lot of the people who aren't satisfied with the direction the series has taken have been saying: the scope of events was expanded too far beyond our main characters.
Well I'm just sayin'.

One game. Out of multiple where Riku or a version of him had a large role.

And then KH3's secret ending and MelMem practically saying he's goin' back to said large role.

And then Nomura looking at a popularity poll where Riku was in like fourth or something and thinking "there should be MORE Riku"

I actually thought it was a bit refreshing that Riku didn't have that big of a role in KH3 despite me thinking he would before it came out. And afterward where people were clamoring for Riku to have more spotlight and even a "Riku game"[even tho DDD is right there and more Riku-centric despite Sora's presence]I found myself thinking "Shouldn't someone else have that treatment instead"
 

Phoenix

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Well I'm just sayin'.

One game. Out of multiple where Riku or a version of him had a large role.

And then KH3's secret ending and MelMem practically saying he's goin' back to said large role.

And then Nomura looking at a popularity poll where Riku was in like fourth or something and thinking "there should be MORE Riku"

I actually thought it was a bit refreshing that Riku didn't have that big of a role in KH3 despite me thinking he would before it came out. And afterward where people were clamoring for Riku to have more spotlight and even a "Riku game"[even tho DDD is right there and more Riku-centric despite Sora's presence]I found myself thinking "Shouldn't someone else have that treatment instead"

I think a problem I might have with that is the cadence of the games. It's not a big deal for Riku not to have a big role in coded or BBS, since he just had a major role in KH2 and is doing cool shit in Days. But if we're going to be having phone games all in the past, and the cast is too large for him to do anything interesting in KH3, and it's taking years and years for us to even hear about the next instalment, that starts being different.
 
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