Disney villains for a saga? (Fun discussion)

[vaderskywalker]

Why Don't they make a Disney villain the main villain instead of making OC villains, leading an alliance of Disney villains, similar to KH1, what are your thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 246005]

I guess Nomura got interested in his own characters more.

 

[Elysium]

I think it would be interesting to have a game where an OC and a Disney Villain were partners. The Horned King hanging out with the Foretellers, for example. If they ever had a villain whose power was Light-based (an oppressive light), it would've been interesting to have a character like Frollo sharing the same space as them, for example. Frollo doesn't have magic powers, of course, but a Light-based villain would end up having Light-based enemies. Frollo could be given the power to command them by the OC villain.

I like to think they could still re-hash Hunchback if they wanted to, hand-waving it away as what happened in 3D not being reality since the world was asleep at the time.

 

[Face My Fears]

Why Don't they make a Disney villain the main villain instead of making OC villains, leading an alliance of Disney villains, similar to KH1, what are your thoughts?

I think it's not done again because it was done already with probably the best/most iconic characters.

Who would be in the line-up now? I just glanced over the list of DISNEY animated films and honestly the most well-known/viable villains from the last 20 years of films would be: Syndrome (The Incredibles), Yzma (The Emperor's New Groove), Dr. Facilier (The Princess & The Frog), and King Candy (Wreck-It Ralph).

Besides the fact that the DISNEY villain options is limited, what would their goal be at this point? It worked in KH1 because Ansem was using Maleficent to get what he wanted - so they both had a singular goal. If there's a DISNEY team up now, their goal will probably conflict with whatever the Foretellers are doing... and above all of that, how would they even know about the Foretellers ancient/secret information - so secret that seemingly not even Yen Sid or Master Xehanort know.

With how complex the game's story is now, it would be really hard to introduce a DISNEY villain team up and actually get them taken seriously. Maleficent and Pete are already not taken seriously.

 

[vaderskywalker]

I think it's not done again because it was done already with probably the best/most iconic characters.

Who would be in the line-up now? I just glanced over the list of DISNEY animated films and honestly the most well-known/viable villains from the last 20 years of films would be: Syndrome (The Incredibles), Yzma (The Emperor's New Groove), Dr. Facilier (The Princess & The Frog), and King Candy (Wreck-It Ralph).

Besides the fact that the DISNEY villain options is limited, what would their goal be at this point? It worked in KH1 because Ansem was using Maleficent to get what he wanted - so they both had a singular goal. If there's a DISNEY team up now, their goal will probably conflict with whatever the Foretellers are doing... and above all of that, how would they even know about the Foretellers ancient/secret information - so secret that seemingly not even Yen Sid or Master Xehanort know.

With how complex the game's story is now, it would be really hard to introduce a DISNEY villain team up and actually get them taken seriously. Maleficent and Pete are already not taken seriously.

Well that's the thing, I'm talking about a possible future 3rd saga, the Disney villain saga,(hypothetically unlikely it would be awesome if it did happen though), meaning no Oc villains allowed, but sora is still the main character, and there is one classic pure evil villain I can think of, the horned king, and maybe he and maleficent know each other, perhaps are even rivals to an extent, but could work together, and the alliance could have more than just those two.

 

[Chie]

In Kingdom Hearts, Disney characters are on a lower conceptual or metanarrative level than those descended from Keyblade Society and others. This is because the Disney characters are from a set story that repeats itself (in the form of their "world"). This is why Maleficent can't understand the plot of the series when the other villains explain it to her.

That's the metafictional rules of this setting. A guy who only exists within a movie (story) (world) is never going to be on the same weight class as those descended from the God (MoM) who set up this scenario.

 

[SweetYetSalty]

Unfortunately there's some restrictions as shown with KH3 on what they can and cannot do with Disney characters. We were not allowed to fight Randall Boggs, Mother Gothel, or Hans for example. We couldn't even have Elsa or Anna as party members. The only Disney characters allowed in photo mode are Mickey, Donald, and Goofy. The reigns are pretty tight. I would personally be down with a new Disney Council being the major villains of a future KH title, but I just don't see it happening now.

 

[Agroogrooiya]

Disney hates fun things. Only the most squeaky clean of portrayals can be done. *gestures to everything after KH1

 

[vaderskywalker]

In Kingdom Hearts, Disney characters are on a lower conceptual or metanarrative level than those descended from Keyblade Society and others. This is because the Disney characters are from a set story that repeats itself (in the form of their "world"). This is why Maleficent can't understand the plot of the series when the other villains explain it to her.

That's the metafictional rules of this setting. A guy who only exists within a movie (story) (world) is never going to be on the same weight class as those descended from the God (MoM) who set up this scenario.

Thats unfair, Disney should be just as important as the Oc characters, the only ones who seems to get any respect is Mickey mouse and Yen Sid, and I'm pretty sure it's only because it's only mickey and his teacher, who only showed up in one movie in only one scene, and had no speaking lines at all, and yet they managed to create entire lore around this one guy in a series of video games, and they put him in another game where Hes not mickey's teacher, but mickey unintentionally snuck into his tower and accidentally Messed up his "project" for forgotten Disney characters, called epic Mickey, and it had nothing to do with square Enix.

Unfortunately there's some restrictions as shown with KH3 on what they can and cannot do with Disney characters. We were not allowed to fight Randall Boggs, Mother Gothel, or Hans for example. We couldn't even have Elsa or Anna as party members. The only Disney characters allowed in photo mode are Mickey, Donald, and Goofy. The reigns are pretty tight. I would personally be down with a new Disney Council being the major villains of a future KH title, but I just don't see it happening now.

And that's another thing if Mickey, a Disney hero can be given one, why can't a Disney villain also be given a keyblade, despite what Riku and Xehanort have said, I don't think keyblades care about darkness in a heart or not, or rather good or evil in a heart, and the inheritance ceremony isn't really needed, because keyblades can think for themselves, all the inheritance ceremony does is point the keyblade in the right direction, for example Sora proved himself stronger than Riku in KH1, and it wasn't because Vens's heart was inside sora, so they would just need to think of a Disney villain that fits the bill, also in DDD it was said by Yen Sid that keyblades were designed to conquer the light, but some decided to use the keyblades for good, so the keyblades aren't inherently good or evil, so its not out of the realm of possibility that the keyblades could choose someone evil, they just need a strong heart and will, another example, vanitas is a being of pure darkness, and able to use a keyblade and he seems pretty evil, and yes, I just said a pure darkness seems pretty evil, that's because light and darkness, like the keyblade, are not inherently good or evil, another example Riku and Eraqus, Riku uses darkness for good, at least until KH3, and Eraqus used light very negatively when he attacked Terra, so there is really no reason not to have an evil keyblade wielding Disney villain. (I'm sorry about this Agroogrooiya I didn't mean to steal your word box I was editing my paragraphs and I crashed into your box, and when I went go back to my paragraphs, I hit the back space by mistake and dragged your words out of your box, again I'm really sorry about that) Disney hates fun things. Only the most squeaky clean of portrayals can be done. *gestures to everything after KH1
and that's really unfortunate, why are they so controlling all of a sudden? Shouldn't they be able to trust square Enix with their properties at this point?

 

[Chie]

Thats unfair, Disney should be just as important as the Oc characters

But that's not what this story is about.

It's not just a crossover of all these things thrown in a world, it's a specific world that's set up by specific characters in this way.

 

[Face My Fears]

In Kingdom Hearts, Disney characters are on a lower conceptual or metanarrative level than those descended from Keyblade Society and others. This is because the Disney characters are from a set story that repeats itself (in the form of their "world"). This is why Maleficent can't understand the plot of the series when the other villains explain it to her.

That's the metafictional rules of this setting. A guy who only exists within a movie (story) (world) is never going to be on the same weight class as those descended from the God (MoM) who set up this scenario.

I don't necessarily believe that's true.

Triton knew about keyblades - the extent of this knowledge is unknown.

Maleficent literally time travelled back to KHUX's time period, met one of the original Darknesses, then returned for KH2. She may not have been aware from the get-go (back in BbS), but she is definitely learning.

Yen Sid and Mickey are shown to be very knowledgeable on main story elements.

Hades will seemingly play some part in KH4's main story.

I do think that certain DISNEY characters can and shouldn't break away from their film/world's limitations (what are Woody and Buzz going to do in other worlds), but some characters can. Maleficent is one, I can see Hades actually doing his own thing in KH4 (outside Olympus), Jafar could have been one also, and the list goes on.

The problem revealed itself in KH3 - the restrictions put on by DISNEY. I'm sure Nomura would love to use DISNEY characters on a grander scale, but what's the point of building up villains and giving them a main plot (in the script), then submit it to DISNEY and have them reject it? Nomura probably realized that it's easier to just keep the DISNEY in the worlds, and do the original character stuff outside those worlds. He's already getting issues to go beyond the film's story (like Arendelle).

 

[Chie]

What I'm saying is that it's built into the physical truth of the setting to an extent.

Maleficent is a character who was basically elevated by knowledge from Xehanort (because he broke the world order by telling her!!!) and so she pulls herself up into the main plot, but she repeatedly can't comprehend it because of her standing.

The backstory of this setting is one in which a man who calls himself god maligned the world into the shape he needed for the story he wrote. That shape included all these different worlds that regenerated into their pre-existing, pre-determined state, their plot, their world order. So people like Maleficent are playing out a repeating script (it repeats when the world is copied, into data, into dreams, into memories).

I think Dark Road emphasizes this theme more than ever before, with the idea that the upperclassmens plan was to disrupt the story of the disney movies by stealing objects important to the world order. Deliberately make the script impossible to follow and see what results.

 

[vaderskywalker]

The problem revealed itself in KH3 - the restrictions put on by DISNEY. I'm sure Nomura would love to use DISNEY characters on a grander scale, but what's the point of building up villains and giving them a main plot (in the script), then submit it to DISNEY and have them reject it? Nomura probably realized that it's easier to just keep the DISNEY in the worlds, and do the original character stuff outside those worlds. He's already getting issues to go beyond the film's story (like Arendelle).

There is a way around this, they could have a meeting place in one of their worlds, and each one gets taken down in their world, similar to KH1, and the final world belongs to the leader, and yeah, no original world Either, aside from Twilight Town, Land of departure, Destiny Islands and/or Radiant Garden.

 

[Face My Fears]

What I'm saying is that it's built into the physical truth of the setting to an extent.

Maleficent is a character who was basically elevated by knowledge from Xehanort (because he broke the world order by telling her!!!) and so she pulls herself up into the main plot, but she repeatedly can't comprehend it because of her standing.

The backstory of this setting is one in which a man who calls himself god maligned the world into the shape he needed for the story he wrote. That shape included all these different worlds that regenerated into their pre-existing, pre-determined state, their plot, their world order. So people like Maleficent are playing out a repeating script (it repeats when the world is copied, into data, into dreams, into memories).

I think Dark Road emphasizes this theme more than ever before, with the idea that the upperclassmens plan was to disrupt the story of the disney movies by stealing objects important to the world order. Deliberately make the script impossible to follow and see what results.

Wouldn't Xehanort telling Maleficent some knowledge and thus having her leave Enchanted Dominion actually BE an act of an important object leaving the world and the DISNEY world story being altered? Not only that, but in a weird way she's like a virus in a system now. She's escaped where she should be (Enchanted Dominion) and going off corrupting other storylines.

Also, I didn't really see everything with KHUX/Dark Road, but why are only the DISNEY worlds repeated? Why not Twilight Town or something?

There is a way around this, they could have a meeting place in one of their worlds, and each one gets taken down in their world, similar to KH1, and the final world belongs to the leader, and yeah, no original world Either, aside from Twilight Town, Land of departure, Destiny Islands and/or Radiant Garden.

There's no way that a DISNEY world will be the last world of a KH game. Not even in KH1. Also, why would they rehash the same story from KH1 with just a different cast? At this stage of the series, what would a DISNEY villain even do?

I could see Hades potentially being a threat, and maybe a side-game main villain, but for the main games, I doubt it.

 

[vaderskywalker]

Wouldn't Xehanort telling Maleficent some knowledge and thus having her leave Enchanted Dominion actually BE an act of an important object leaving the world and the DISNEY world story being altered?

Yes, that would usually be the case, but the events in birth by sleep are the same as the movie, the only difference is Terra, Aqua, and Ven being present, Xehanort interacting with Maleficent, and Maleficent surviving the stab, but just to be clear, she did die in the movie, right? the animated one? I haven't seen that movie since I was five or six, because it scared me, I'm gonna have to watch it again at some point.

 

[vaderskywalker]

There's no way that a DISNEY world will be the last world of a KH game. Not even in KH1. Also, why would they rehash the same story from KH1 with just a different cast? At this stage of the series, what would a DISNEY villain even do?

Yeah, I that's unlikely, would still be cool though, also they wouldn't be rehashing the same story from KH1 because there wouldn't be an original character to steal the spotlight, and as for what a Disney villain would do, well, like I said before, give the leading Disney villain a keyblade, if Mickey a Disney hero can be given one, there's no reason a Disney villain can't be given one.

 

[Elysium]

And that's another thing if Mickey, a Disney hero can be given one, why can't a Disney villain also be given a keyblade, despite what Riku and Xehanort have said, I don't think keyblades care about darkness in a heart or not

The problem is thinking of a Disney villain who would look "right" with a Keyblade. I mean, I can't imagine a character like Jafar or Maleficent holding one, they'd look absurd.* Pete, it would make sense with, but I don't really like the thought of him being more powerful than Maleficent just because he has a Keyblade. The best I can think of is, say, Oswald being a silent villain of a sort, I could imagine that character holding a Keyblade. Particularly if Yozora does end up being an AU Riku or Sora (whatever), Oswald being an AU Disney character with a Keyblade, who's a villain rather than a hero, instead of Mickey--sort of re-writing studio history, lol--would be neat.

* Although I was thinking just now about how Maleficent sort of holds the Keyblade she takes from Sora in Coded before breaking it at the end of Agrabah. She doesn't actually hold it with her hand. I suppose they could have her command a Keyblade without actually holding it physically. Maybe she picks up a load of them from the Keyblade Graveyard and shoots them at you, ha.

 

[Face My Fears]

Yeah, I that's unlikely, would still be cool though, also they wouldn't be rehashing the same story from KH1 because there wouldn't be an original character to steal the spotlight, and as for what a Disney villain would do, well, like I said before, give the leading Disney villain a keyblade, if Mickey a Disney hero can be given one, there's no reason a Disney villain can't be given one.

Honestly, they missed their opportunity to have the DISNEY villains do something more in KH3.

It's subtly there, but Maleficent being pissed off at Ansem and wanting revenge could have been a plot explored in KH2. If she realized that Xemnas was an Ansem "of sorts", she could have assembled all the old villains to go after him. Nomura could have even woven that into the main plot (in the second half of KH2 after the Hollow Bastion battle), where Sora is conflicted using the keyblade against heartless since it helps Xemnas. Maleficent could have learned that Xemnas and the Organization were tied to Ansem, so Maleficent works with all the villains to release heartless like crazy across the worlds so that she can force Sora to lead her to Xemnas.

 

[vaderskywalker]

The problem is thinking of a Disney villain who would look "right" with a Keyblade. I mean, I can't imagine a character like Jafar or Maleficent holding one, they'd look absurd.* Pete, it would make sense with, but I don't really like the thought of him being more powerful than Maleficent just because he has a Keyblade. The best I can think of is, say, Oswald being a silent villain of a sort, I could imagine that character holding a Keyblade. Particularly if Yozora does end up being an AU Riku or Sora (whatever), Oswald being an AU Disney character with a Keyblade, who's a villain rather than a hero, instead of Mickey--sort of re-writing studio history, lol--would be neat.

Oswald isn't a bad guy though, just jealous of Mickey which he gets over by the end of the first Epic Mickey game, but there is one who could work, the Horned king, and it makes sense to a degree, you have Mickey, a good and kind king, and the Horned king, an evil and selfish king, yes, I know only one of them is a king in canon, but they would mirror each other in kingdom hearts.

 

[vaderskywalker]

* Although I was thinking just now about how Maleficent sort of holds the Keyblade she takes from Sora in Coded before breaking it at the end of Agrabah. She doesn't actually hold it with her hand. I suppose they could have her command a Keyblade without actually holding it physically. Maybe she picks up a load of them from the Keyblade Graveyard and shoots them at you, ha.

Sorry, I wanted to do your paragraphs one at a time, forgot to go back and highlight this one, anyway, that keyblade was a fake, that's why she was able to do that, but that raises yet another question, how did Maleficent know that it was fake? She took one look at it, when it landed in the sand and said, "Isn't that odd", seriously HOW did she know? for the record I'm not a big fan of show don't tell, because some things are more obvious than others.