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Do you guys think this would happen?



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D.D.D

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So, I haven't really been too active in the KH part of the forum lately, since I've been busy with RL stuff and Digital Media. But I wanted to ask you all a question:

Do you think Vanitas would ever betray the Xehanorganization in KH3 when the whole "7 lights and 13 darknesses" thing is going on? Like, I know in BBS that Vanitas wasn't exactly fond of MX, and he was willing to go against his orders, so I know it's possible.

I'm just wondering if Vanitas would do something that independent or not. I mean, he could be just using Xehanort at this point for his own goals. Or maybe he's completely Xehanortified himself and has no chance to rebel.

Either way, it would be nice character development, IMO, instead of, "Oh, Vanitas just keeps doing what Xehy tells him and is a mindless follower, so Sora and the gang'll just off him and that'll be the end of it."

In 3D, Ansem the Wise tells Riku that anything can grow a heart, so is it possible that he grew his own, separate from his half of Ven's?

I'm not saying he'd have to go to Sora's side, but I can at least see him leaving Xehanort behind. Do you guys suspect this, too?
 

Lonbilly

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I actually wouldn't be surprised if this happens. If I remember correctly, the novels said that Vanitas hated Xehanort or something. The only problem is that if he is an official member of the Xehanorganization, I doubt he'll be able to leave until either A) someone beats the Xehanort out of him, because until then he'll probably be a puppet, or B) Vanitas overcomes it by following a same path as Marluxia and Larxene as being "traitors" and not able to be in the Xehanorganization.

I wouldn't doubt Vanitas betraying Xehanort though, in fact I'm almost certain it's gonna happen. I wouldn't even be surprised if he played a part in the next saga as a villain (preferably not the main unelss it's for one game only).
 

Ruran

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I find the question a bit tricky because Vanitas just isn't a very deeply developed character. Vanitas going against MX's orders that one time seems to be the case in point about his questionable loyalty to MX but I don't see it so much as Vanitas "rebelling" as him just being reckless. Early one in the game I think Vanitas actually gets a nice little tid-bit of characterization when he says he's going to entice Ven into leaving home and MX quickly pipes up and basically tells him not to blow his cover which Vanitas responds with an "I know that". Later, when Vanitas confronts Ven he tells him "You never stood a chance against us Ventus". He seems more brash than anything.

Since there isn't a whole lot on his character that's not to say that he hasn't thought about betraying MX (if that's even an option) but I don't see significant evidence for it yet. For the most part he does every thing MX tells him like a good puppy. Only doing things of his own accord if it advances their plans anyway like having Aqua as a backup.

Vanitas's heart is his own regardless of it was once a part of Ven's. i don't think he'll develop another one.
 

Vanitas666

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Ever sense I read the novel I have hoped and believed that one day Vanitas shall betray Xehanort and join Sora and the gang.
 

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It's a classic scenario (and always happens) that there's an internal fighting amongst the evil faction (like how Lucifer and the Anti-Christ got separated, even though both were doing the game thing; antagonism). It's been used on the series before, more specifically, it wouldn't be the first time it happens on the Organization; Marluxia turns traitor, except it would be Vanitas turning traitor, which is like what recreating the Keyblade War lead to; a repeat of history. Although he has a piece of Xehanort inside him, it doesn't mean he can't fight against it. Heck, Terra could fight his entire heart, so a piece shouldn't be a bother.
 

D.D.D

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I agree with all of you about this; Vanitas has the potential to do it and probably will. I just can't see him in KH3 being all passive and doing whatever MX tells him. Maybe even Nomura could use this to give Van even more development. And like Seraph said, it's already happened in the series, so I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

I don't think Vanitas will ever lose his harsh, unkind personality, but I assume he'll stand up for himself. Or do you guys think he'll go through a change into a slightly nicer person? I kinda hope not; I like his evilness.
 

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Character development doesn't being from going bad to nice, it just means working on some aspects of yourself. Vanitas retiring from his role of puppet and assuming a more independent paper it's already a development right there.
 

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well if I remember correctly (been forever sence I played bbs) vanitas basically said his darkness grew from fear and sarrow (the mor pityable darknesses) so he is a character I almost feel sorry for, and would like to see him change to good, but that would be unlikely to happen, with such things already happenning with other characters before. but I think there is a good chance of him betraying MX
 

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I think Vanitas will end up like Kefka; he'll find pleasure and meaning to his life by just being evil. '_'
 

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Character development doesn't being from going bad to nice, it just means working on some aspects of yourself. Vanitas retiring from his role of puppet and assuming a more independent paper it's already a development right there.
Nah, I wasn't saying that. I only meant that Vanitas going from bad to good would add even more development from his original puppet/evil state on top of being independent from Xehanort. Honestly, I'd prefer he just go solo and not side with either Sora or Xehanort.
 

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Why would Vanitas betray MX though? We know why Marluxia turned traitor; he plain 'ol wanted power. From what I can tell Vanitas and MX are working towards a similar goal: create the X-Blade and restart the Keyblade War. If we wanna go by the novels (which I take with a grain of salt because it's third tier cannon) whether Vanitas likes MX or not he's helping Vanitas get what he wants. Right now I can't really see Vanitas betraying him unless something happens down the line that would make him want to turn on MX.
 

Sephiroth0812

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I find the question a bit tricky because Vanitas just isn't a very deeply developed character. Vanitas going against MX's orders that one time seems to be the case in point about his questionable loyalty to MX but I don't see it so much as Vanitas "rebelling" as him just being reckless. Early one in the game I think Vanitas actually gets a nice little tid-bit of characterization when he says he's going to entice Ven into leaving home and MX quickly pipes up and basically tells him not to blow his cover which Vanitas responds with an "I know that". Later, when Vanitas confronts Ven he tells him "You never stood a chance against us Ventus". He seems more brash than anything.

Since there isn't a whole lot on his character that's not to say that he hasn't thought about betraying MX (if that's even an option) but I don't see significant evidence for it yet. For the most part he does every thing MX tells him like a good puppy. Only doing things of his own accord if it advances their plans anyway like having Aqua as a backup.

Vanitas's heart is his own regardless of it was once a part of Ven's. i don't think he'll develop another one.

Again I have to very much agree with everything you said, lol.
If one looks at the events from BBS closely Vanitas seems to be in line with MX's plans the whole time, even referring to the whole scheme as "their" plan with the "never stood a chance against us".
His going against MX's orders once does indeed look more like he's just shortly giving in to his urges to hurt and destroy paired with his belief that Ven might be useless to his and MX's plans and therefore rationalizes it like this.
It isn't really a form of deliberately trying to mess up MX's plans.
Not to mention he seems to be very eager to see the worlds burn and use the X-blade to cause a new Keyblade War, as is clearly heard in his bragging towards Aqua when he holds the outwardly complete X-blade.

I do think however that betrayal and scheming will occur in the Organisation XIII-2 if Xehanort does not exert control over all members directly.
So far, besides MX himself, Young MX, Ansem SoD, Xemnas and Braig/Xigbar seem to form the hard "core" of the Org and are most likely the five who are certainly willingly in the whole issue.
On the other side, Terra and (maybe) Eraqus are surely in there against their wills and if they have any opportunity and possibility to do so they will somehow try and sabotage MX's plans from within his own Organisation, especially Terra with his immense hatred towards Xehanort and his drive to protect Aqua and Ven.
A very interesting case might be Isa/Saix though since with him we have three different portrayals throughout the series: A bit aloof, but certainly not unfriendly in BBS, a calculating, cold professional working against Xemnas in secret during much of Days, becoming more and more of a jerkass which finally leads to his friendship with Axel/Lea shattering in the end and Xemnas loyal and fanatic second in command in KH2. This leaves much to speculate about if Isa/Saix is in the whole issue willingly like Braig, totally unwilling like Terra or maybe something between all this.
As for Vanitas, the only reason I could see why he would possibly try and work against MX is either just out of spite (unlikely after the bits we saw in BBS itself about his agenda) or because he wants to ursurp MX and take the X-blade for himself and wreaking chaos around the RoL by himself.
Looking at it from the current information at hand I would actually say that, besides Terra (and possibly Eraqus if he's there), Isa/Saix has a bigger chance/reason of going rogue than Vanitas has, also by looking at possible members of the other side (Lea) goading him into rebelling and fighting the Xehanort-"part" inside him just like Terra has from his own conviction and Aqua and Ven.

Exactly, it was even said by MX in-game in the reports and alluded to by Nomura when speaking about Ven's heart.
They both have their own heart, the only difference with Vanitas' heart is that it was originally made out of a shard of Ven's, but both their hearts were nutured and eventually fully formed during the four year period between Vanitas' creation and the start of BBS, one of the foreshadows of the functionality of hearts revealed in DDD now. ;)

well if I remember correctly (been forever sence I played bbs) vanitas basically said his darkness grew from fear and sarrow (the mor pityable darknesses) so he is a character I almost feel sorry for, and would like to see him change to good, but that would be unlikely to happen, with such things already happenning with other characters before. but I think there is a good chance of him betraying MX

In BBS Vanitas only speaks about negativity, that includes all forms of negative emotions. The (arguably) pitiable bits stem solely from the novel, and there also not from the main storyline but an extra chapter at the end.
Considering the novels ambigious canon status they have to be looked at with caution, especially when points brought up there actually contradict the games or interviews.
Nomura does give some background input on some parts of the novels, but he does not actually write them.

Why would Vanitas betray MX though? We know why Marluxia turned traitor; he plain 'ol wanted power. From what I can tell Vanitas and MX are working towards a similar goal: create the X-Blade and restart the Keyblade War. If we wanna go by the novels (which I take with a grain of salt because it's third tier cannon) whether Vanitas likes MX or not he's helping Vanitas get what he wants. Right now I can't really see Vanitas betraying him unless something happens down the line that would make him want to turn on MX.

That's exactly how I see it as well, right now, there isn't anything to gain for Vanitas going rogue. He didn't stand a chance against MX alone, now he would also have Ansem SoD, Xemnas and Young Xehanort to deal with.
If anything, like I said already above, he seems to be thrilled to see the new Keyblade War and the RoL drowning in darkness going by his remarks to Aqua.
 

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Why would Vanitas betray MX though? We know why Marluxia turned traitor; he plain 'ol wanted power. From what I can tell Vanitas and MX are working towards a similar goal: create the X-Blade and restart the Keyblade War. If we wanna go by the novels (which I take with a grain of salt because it's third tier cannon) whether Vanitas likes MX or not he's helping Vanitas get what he wants. Right now I can't really see Vanitas betraying him unless something happens down the line that would make him want to turn on MX.

It's in human nature to not want to be controlled or told what to do. People are freedom loving, unless you're like Braig who I assume willingly became Xehanort's puppet because he wanted a taste of the power.

There's the thing; what is Vanitas to gain by staying with MX? The X-Blade? He already knows how to forge it. In fact, like you said, he wanted it for his own. Why would he want to share it with MX? Why not betray MX, screw up his plans, and take it for himself and only for himself.

He willingly went against Xehanort's wishes before, when he felt like destroying Ven because that's what he wanted to do. Then Mickey came in and saved him, etc.... So we know that Vanitas doesn't care much what MX wants him to do. Like you said, the only reason he probably worked with MX is because he wanted the X-Blade (IDK about the Keyblade War, I can't really remember him saying anything about that).

If he grows independent enough, which is very possible, he might turn against MX. I wouldn't doubt it. Vanitas wants what Vanitas wants and if there's an easier way to get it, then why not do that? We don't know how easily the Xehanorganization will be able to attain the Princesses, and/or keep control over the more rebellious members.

I see it a lot like Roxas' betrayal; he knew he was being used, so he rebelled and left to get the knowledge and freedom he always sought for. Vanitas is in the same situation, basically, except for wanting power and the X-Blade instead, and thus might do the same.

Though, if Vanitas is fully Xehanortified, then he has no chance unless Sora and the gang find out a way to yank the Xehanort out of people, and somehow feel enough pity to free him. I mean, Sora might take pity on him because it's not entirely Vanitas' fault that he's such a dick; he was born from darkness and negative emotions and was basically raised by MX.

Whether or not Sora and the gang realizes this or completely ignores him and leaves him to be a slave is up to them.

My main fear is that Nomura will make it so Vanitas is just a plain bad guy and has no redeeming qualities. I just want him to have more development in some way, whether it be being more independent, becoming a better person, growing some emotions that aren't dark/negative. Something.
 

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It's in human nature to not want to be controlled or told what to do. People are freedom loving, unless you're like Braig who I assume willingly became Xehanort's puppet because he wanted a taste of the power.

There's the thing; what is Vanitas to gain by staying with MX? The X-Blade? He already knows how to forge it. In fact, like you said, he wanted it for his own. Why would he want to share it with MX? Why not betray MX, screw up his plans, and take it for himself and only for himself.

He willingly went against Xehanort's wishes before, when he felt like destroying Ven because that's what he wanted to do. Then Mickey came in and saved him, etc.... So we know that Vanitas doesn't care much what MX wants him to do. Like you said, the only reason he probably worked with MX is because he wanted the X-Blade (IDK about the Keyblade War, I can't really remember him saying anything about that).

If he grows independent enough, which is very possible, he might turn against MX. I wouldn't doubt it. Vanitas wants what Vanitas wants and if there's an easier way to get it, then why not do that? We don't know how easily the Xehanorganization will be able to attain the Princesses, and/or keep control over the more rebellious members.

I see it a lot like Roxas' betrayal; he knew he was being used, so he rebelled and left to get the knowledge and freedom he always sought for. Vanitas is in the same situation, basically, except for wanting power and the X-Blade instead, and thus might do the same.

Though, if Vanitas is fully Xehanortified, then he has no chance unless Sora and the gang find out a way to yank the Xehanort out of people, and somehow feel enough pity to free him. I mean, Sora might take pity on him because it's not entirely Vanitas' fault that he's such a dick; he was born from darkness and negative emotions and was basically raised by MX.

Whether or not Sora and the gang realizes this or completely ignores him and leaves him to be a slave is up to them.

Here comes the tricky part again in that Vanitas over all just plain isn't a very developed character. The only insight we have into Vanitas's and MX relationship besides master and student is in the questionable authenticity of the novels. I couldn't begin to fathom how their dynamic works so for now it can't be said how much Vanitas is unwilling to do what MX says.

Vanitas wants the X-Blade and to restart the Keyblade war, but for what reasons is a mystery. He just seems to see the world burn. After the X-Blade is forged and the war restarted Vanitas and MX both get what they want and MX probably wouldn't have any more need for Vanitas. It's a win-win situation for the both of them seeing as they both get what they want so there's no reason for Vanitas to make MX his enemy.

He went against MX's wishes because he reasoned that Ven was more of a hindrance than a help. Ven was a "weakling" while he had Aqua as a spare who was much stronger at the time and potentially more adequate. Looking back at Vanitas's character, everything he did was to speed up his and MX's planes even if it ment taking it into his own hands, but it was still their planes non the less.

imo, the easiest way for Vanitas to get what Vanitas wants is by not pissing off the man who created him and who can probably kick his ass through all the realms in KH. As Sephy pointed out, if Vanitas tries to betray MX, he has MX himself to face and half the new Org. At least.

Vanitas is defiantly being used, and he might know that already, but this goes back to the fact MX and Vanitas have similar goals. Vanitas wants the X-Blade to open KH and restart the Keyblade war. MX wants the X-Blade to restart the Keyblade war. There's no reason why they shouldn't work together. If Vanitas goes off and does his own thing he's going to do what MX wants any way.

That is something I'm curious about though, how much of Vanitas is "Xehanort" by now and how it affects him specifically since he isn't a normal person.
 

Sephiroth0812

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It's in human nature to not want to be controlled or told what to do. People are freedom loving, unless you're like Braig who I assume willingly became Xehanort's puppet because he wanted a taste of the power.

There's the thing; what is Vanitas to gain by staying with MX? The X-Blade? He already knows how to forge it. In fact, like you said, he wanted it for his own. Why would he want to share it with MX? Why not betray MX, screw up his plans, and take it for himself and only for himself.
Oh dear, there are enough examples all around of more "subservient" human natures who relish if they can serve either a purpose or another human being/an organisation or a faction. Braig certainly isn't an exception in terms of human behaviour like this, not to mention Nomura mentioning there's still more to Braig's decisions than the current level of information lets us see.

Let's turn the whole thing around: What's Vanitas to gain by betraying MX? Not only would he get another, very powerful enemy in addition to the ones he already has, he also cannot get the X-blade solely on his own anyways. Even leaving aside that he only knows the way how to forge a fraction of the X-blade, he won't ever be successful alone with it since Ventus will never agree with it and try to destroy him again, and Aqua also was "sick of the nonsense" the very first time around.

By going against MX he would be up against MX and his loyal members (at least Ansem SoD, Xemnas, Young MX and Braig) who would probably subdue him very quickly if he tries something and the Protectors of Light and their allies at the same time.
And I somehow really doubt he would want to ally himself with Maleficent and Pete, lol.

He willingly went against Xehanort's wishes before, when he felt like destroying Ven because that's what he wanted to do. Then Mickey came in and saved him, etc.... So we know that Vanitas doesn't care much what MX wants him to do. Like you said, the only reason he probably worked with MX is because he wanted the X-Blade (IDK about the Keyblade War, I can't really remember him saying anything about that).
Going from the dialogue, it was more like he thought of Ven as useless to their plans since they weren't even in power at that point. Like Ruran pointed out, we don't know if Vanitas even has any ambitions besides going through with MX's plans and start another Keyblade War.
I've found the quote from the game BBS itself:

BBS said:
Ventus-Vanitas: Correct. I am not Ventus. His heart has become a part of mine
now. This X-blade will open a door--one that leads to all worlds! Then,
Keyblade-bearing warriors will flock here from each and every one of them, to
battle for the light within Kingdom Hearts! And just like the legend says, the
Keyblade War will begin!

Aqua: Shut up! I'm sick of your nonsense! Give Ven his heart back!

That pretty much sums up his motivations as far as we know. There isn't much room to interpret this statement differently.
He wants to see the new Keyblade War unfold, pretty much in line with MX's goals.

If he grows independent enough, which is very possible, he might turn against MX. I wouldn't doubt it. Vanitas wants what Vanitas wants and if there's an easier way to get it, then why not do that? We don't know how easily the Xehanorganization will be able to attain the Princesses, and/or keep control over the more rebellious members.

I see it a lot like Roxas' betrayal; he knew he was being used, so he rebelled and left to get the knowledge and freedom he always sought for. Vanitas is in the same situation, basically, except for wanting power and the X-Blade instead, and thus might do the same.

Though, if Vanitas is fully Xehanortified, then he has no chance unless Sora and the gang find out a way to yank the Xehanort out of people, and somehow feel enough pity to free him. I mean, Sora might take pity on him because it's not entirely Vanitas' fault that he's such a dick; he was born from darkness and negative emotions and was basically raised by MX.

I didn't see anyone specifically denying that it might be a possibility for it to happen, yet there isn't much evidence pointing that way with the current information we have right now.

The point in the scenario you advocate though is that it doesn't get easier for Vanitas but rather several magnitudes more difficult if he goes against MX to further his own agenda. He would get only more enemies from both sides, not to mention his goals seem to be in line with MX's.
In the case of Roxas it was also that his goals differed greatly with the ones of the people he rebelled against, which isn't the case here as far as we know.

What I do could see though is, if he can exhibit his own will freely and isn't directly controlled by MX and the same goes for Saix/Isa that they may conspire from within the group with their own agenda without openly defying MX.
As for being Xehanortified, we only see Vanitas ever with the golden Xehanort eyes and he was practically alone with MX for four years, so the odds of him being in a tight grip of Xehanort aren't that low.
It depends on what "freeing" him would mean for Sora's group in terms of still being a threat or not. The born from darkness however is a moot excuse since darkness in itself isn't "evil", it's your choices and decisions that decide if you are. It was also not MX who ordered or goaded him into hurting and abusing Ven when he brought him back from Destiny Islands. It were Vanitas' own decisions to act like an sadistic asshole, so much even the very MX had later to interfere and decide to bring Ven to Eraqus.
So if Sora takes pity of not will probably fully dependent on what actions Vanitas takes through the course of future games in the series, and besides, Riku and Naminé also took pity on Roxas and they still ended his independent existence.


Whether or not Sora and the gang realizes this or completely ignores him and leaves him to be a slave is up to them.

My main fear is that Nomura will make it so Vanitas is just a plain bad guy and has no redeeming qualities. I just want him to have more development in some way, whether it be being more independent, becoming a better person, growing some emotions that aren't dark/negative. Something.

Like I said, it will mainly depend on his own actions and despite Sora being very forgiving in some regards, we also know that Sora doesn't forgive just anyone. Another thing to keep in mind would be surely also the stances of the rest of "the gang".

Gotta have to agree with that though, in BBS, Vanitas came around as a wasted opportunity because the story never really bothered to invest a bit in his development. In this area, he's in the same predicament as Kairi.

Here comes the tricky part again in that Vanitas over all just plain isn't a very developed character. The only insight we have into Vanitas's and MX relationship besides master and student is in the questionable authenticity of the novels. I couldn't begin to fathom how their dynamic works so for now it can't be said how much Vanitas is unwilling to do what MX says.
Like I said above, yep, it's similar to Kairi, lol.

Vanitas wants the X-Blade and to restart the Keyblade war, but for what reasons is a mystery. He just seems to see the world burn. After the X-Blade is forged and the war restarted Vanitas and MX both get what they want and MX probably wouldn't have any more need for Vanitas. It's a win-win situation for the both of them seeing as they both get what they want so there's no reason for Vanitas to make MX his enemy.

He went against MX's wishes because he reasoned that Ven was more of a hindrance than a help. Ven was a "weakling" while he had Aqua as a spare who was much stronger at the time and potentially more adequate. Looking back at Vanitas's character, everything he did was to speed up his and MX's planes even if it ment taking it into his own hands, but it was still their planes non the less.
To see the world burn, yep, that's what his bragging statements towards Aqua seems to imply.

Again we're on the same wavelength regarding the interpretation of his actions in his first battle with Ven. ;)

imo, the easiest way for Vanitas to get what Vanitas wants is by not pissing off the man who created him and who can probably kick his ass through all the realms in KH. As Sephy pointed out, if Vanitas tries to betray MX, he has MX himself to face and half the new Org. At least.

Lol, exactly. At least by going what we know so far of what Vanitas wants, it is the same thing MX wants in the end.

Vanitas is defiantly being used, and he might know that already, but this goes back to the fact MX and Vanitas have similar goals. Vanitas wants the X-Blade to open KH and restart the Keyblade war. MX wants the X-Blade to restart the Keyblade war. There's no reason why they shouldn't work together. If Vanitas goes off and does his own thing he's going to do what MX wants any way.

That is something I'm curious about though, how much of Vanitas is "Xehanort" by now and how it affects him specifically since he isn't a normal person.

Everyone is used by Xehanort, he knows no "partners" or equals. Other living beings are nothing but tools to him, that is already made abundantly clear also in the way how callously he dismisses the tragedies he caused in BBS. It's no wonder that Mickey is trembling with rage against Xehanort.
Xehanort even uses his own younger self as a tool in order to try and eliminate Riku. Yep, he even uses himself.
Exactly, him going off on his own and risk gaining much more enemies only makes sense if his goals would actually differ from MX's.

I think it would probably help a bunch if we could get a glimpse at his ears, lol. Are they pointed? The golden eyes already indicate a vast "Xehanort-contamination" anyways, regardless if his consciousness is still unsuppressed.
 
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