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Geez, this game's story is even more flawed than I remembered.



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Oracle Spockanort

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I have nothing against critiques, nitpicks however ... hence the post.
I'll lurk around the forum often (mostly for my chi needs), so we'll see how it goes. I'm not against some argumentation though, as long as it's founded ...

I get that. Some things can get out of hand
 

Antifa Lockhart

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I'll go over this more when I get out of work but quickly I wanted to acknowledge that the gang did try to say more than just "photo". I believe Olette's mouth animation is more in-tune with "picture" than "photo". It's still stupid, but they can't say anything alluding to it.

Some guy, some of your counterpoints are inaccurate, for example Axel was explicitly ordered to destroy Roxas if he wouldn't return. He argues about it with Xaldin and Xemnas, and Xemnas threatens to turn him into a Dusk. This scene is a final mix exclusive but he does refer to it in the vanilla version. I agree with the OP though, this ability should have been shown.
 

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Jaejoong_popcorn.gif
*waits for the OP poster to get to the first dozen "Sora, Donald, Goofy!" scenes and follow up rant*
 

Some guy

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Some guy, some of your counterpoints are inaccurate, for example Axel was explicitly ordered to destroy Roxas if he wouldn't return. He argues about it with Xaldin and Xemnas, and Xemnas threatens to turn him into a Dusk. This scene is a final mix exclusive but he does refer to it in the vanilla version. I agree with the OP though, this ability should have been shown.

I stand corrected, it seems my memory isn't as good as I thought. I also haven't played either version of KHII in a while, in anticipation for 2.5 ... Hopefully, I'll be able to refresh my memory soon.
But why would Xemnas go as far as destroying Roxas? He could potentially lose both Roxas and Sora (and he needs either of them for his plans) ... I guess he still had Riku and Mickey as alternatives, but still.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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But why would Xemnas go as far as destroying Roxas? He could potentially lose both Roxas and Sora (and he needs either of them for his plans) ... I guess he still had Riku and Mickey as alternatives, but still.

If you can't win them over and they are useless, you eliminate them and move on to a new plan. There are other Keyblade wielders in the sea, and there was still the replica program Xemnas could utilize.

And anyways, destroying Roxas wouldn't put an end to him or Sora forever. If anything, it could have possibly sped Sora's recovery up...Or made Sora lose his memories for good which would have made him a pretty good "empty" vessel.
 

Some guy

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If you can't win them over and they are useless, you eliminate them and move on to a new plan. There are other Keyblade wielders in the sea, and there was still the replica program Xemnas could utilize.
Well, as far as we know, it too him 9 years to find an "usable" keyblade wielder. And I thought the replica program was at a standstill since Vexen's demise?

And anyways, destroying Roxas wouldn't put an end to him or Sora forever. If anything, it could have possibly sped Sora's recovery up...
I'm not sure if there was actually some risk involved, or maybe DiZ and Riku just pitied Roxas' fate (going the long, painless way around).

Or made Sora lose his memories for good which would have made him a pretty good "empty" vessel
Good point.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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Well, as far as we know, it too him 9 years to find an "usable" keyblade wielder. And I thought the replica program was at a standstill since Vexen's demise?

Yes, but there was Mickey, and Riku eventually.

And yes it was, but if he needed to start it back up he could have. The risk was in the fact that the replicas weren't as controllable as they believed they could be and had wills of their own.

I'm not sure if there was actually some risk involved, or maybe DiZ and Riku just pitied Roxas' fate (going the long, painless way around).

Keep in mind they didn't really know a Heartless and a Nobody being destroyed would bring back a person. There were assumptions, likely, but no evidence to the fact. If they had know, then certainly their route would have been them taking the moral high road, yes.

Riku certainly wouldn't destroy his best friend's body, regardless if he knew he'd come back or not.
 

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Yes, but there was Mickey, and Riku eventually.

And yes it was, but if he needed to start it back up he could have. The risk was in the fact that the replicas weren't as controllable as they believed they could be and had wills of their own.

I think that's where they decided Sora is dumb enough to get tracked and led to their hideout where they can turn him into a vessel. xp
 

Blackdrazon

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I do want to point out that while these are nitpicks, KH2's problems often come down to making a lot of small mistakes. Yes, small mistakes are smaller than big mistakes, but when you have a thousand holes in the hull of the ship, you're going to take on just as much water as a few big holes. Nitpicks are completely valid as far as I'm concerned, and should be treated as less consequential, not inconsequential. There can't be a grace range for mistakes that "don't count" when games like KH2 abuse the grace range to make small mistake after small mistake after small mistake after small mistake...

To 24 and 25: the impression I got from KH1 was that the minor enemies can teleport in... but they can't teleport in to anywhere. The teleporting you see most of the time is them teleporting to the location of the Keyblade. Organization XIII could probably still teleport into your bedroom and stab you in your sleep though, makes you wonder why they don't.

Personally I'm of the opinion that no story should include teleportation unless it's dedicated to the consequences but... too late for that. Since there are free-range teleporters in every game in the series (Maleficent in KH1), it's a dash against every game in the series, but I think the minor enemies are excused.
 
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rokudamia2

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I do want to point out that while these are nitpicks, KH2's problems often come down to making a lot of small mistakes. Yes, small mistakes are smaller than big mistakes, but when you have a thousand holes in the hull of the ship, you're going to take on just as much water as a few big holes. Nitpicks are completely valid as far as I'm concerned, and should be treated as less consequential, not inconsequential. There can't be a grace range for mistakes that "don't count" when games like KH2 abuse the grace range to make small mistake after small mistake after small mistake after small mistake...

To 24 and 25: the impression I got from KH1 was that the minor enemies can teleport in... but they can't teleport in to anywhere. The teleporting you see most of the time is them teleporting to the location of the Keyblade. Organization XIII could probably still teleport into your bedroom and stab you in your sleep though, makes you wonder why they don't.

Personally I'm of the opinion that no story should include teleportation unless it's dedicated to the consequences but... too late for that. Since there are free-range teleporters in every game in the series (Maleficent in KH1), it's a dash against every game in the series, but I think the minor enemies are excused.

Agreed. This game has so many small holes in its plot I just creates a big plot hole.

I do agree KH2 has the worst plat/Writing in the series. I hope Matgsy posts more.
 

Some guy

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Yes, but there was Mickey, and Riku eventually.
I think we've come to an agreement on this. But still, Xemnas took desperate measures towards Roxas, unless he knew for a fact that destroying him would bring back Sora, or that Sora would be useful even without his memories (which is not too farfetched since we're talking about Xehanort [kinda] here)

And yes it was, but if he needed to start it back up he could have. The risk was in the fact that the replicas weren't as controllable as they believed they could be and had wills of their own.
Indeed, the necessary technology should have been in his possession ... Maybe he just gave up on it after witnessing how out of control Replicas can be? (He shouldn't remember Xion, but there's still Riku-replica)

I do want to point out that while these are nitpicks, KH2's problems often come down to making a lot of small mistakes. Yes, small mistakes are smaller than big mistakes, but when you have a thousand holes in the hull of the ship, you're going to take on just as much water as a few big holes. Nitpicks are completely valid as far as I'm concerned, and should be treated as less consequential, not inconsequential. There can't be a grace range for mistakes that "don't count" when games like KH2 abuse the grace range to make small mistake after small mistake after small mistake after small mistake...
We'll have to disagree here, most of his "nitpicks" can easily be answered to from the game itself (more-so in FM), so they're kinda "inconsequential" in that way.

KH II has writing issues, yes, mostly due to the poor pacing; but I still have to see real incoherence/ inconsistencies in the plot. It would also be great if we could give concrete examples of these "mistakes".
For example, here are some upsetting things (mostly because they lack any form of explanation as of yet) I can think of throughout the series:
- Where KH truly resides: is it an inter-dimensional being? Does it move around? (RoD/ KG)
- Unversed/ unbirth's true nature: I know it's negative emotions given form, but why is Vanitas the only recorded instance of this ever happening?
- Terra-Xehanort's memories.
- Kairi machina hug: can be chalked down to princess of heart magic.
- Hollow bastion's keyhole: how is it connected to all the different worlds' borders, the princesses of heart and DtD? Why does it emit so much darkness? Why was the castle spared in the first place?
- KH: is it really light, and only light?
- Memories' real nature, where it resides, and how it transfers to a Nobody.
- Namine.
- Xion challenging Roxas: couldn't she just end her own life?
- Xion's last request: as I understood it, although Roxas was doing what she asked, he was too rash, and she had to stop him somehow.
- Ansem being Xehanort: I personally don't see this one as a problem, but it's brought up so many times by the fan-base so ... In KHI, no one could confirm ASoD's identity whereas in KHII, a third party (Ansem's friend even) revealed the truth. Unnecessary, maybe, incoherent, not so much.
- Kairi's keyblade: or is it?
- AtW's deus ex machine: he did say anything could happen, but does that excuse anything? No. Does that make me feel better about the whole thing? A little.
- Riku not being able to open a dark corridor. Mickey: you do not belong to the dark side anymore (or something like that); me: and Namine (...) does? And yet Riku can still use darkness in battle ... Or maybe that ability came from the fragment of Xehanort in him.
- Namine (...) overwriting a journal's data (or memories? Not sure ...).
- Time travel: It was explained really well, and was nerfed to the point it doesn't break the continuity of the series; however I can't shake the feeling it wasn't really needed ...
- The inception dreams: why are there sleeping worlds in Sora's dreams? Or is he dreaming them as he himself visits them? This might have been already explained somewhere though ... I also haven't played the game, so not much to say here.

All in all, the series is riddled with plot holes; however, because of this we can have discussions, theories, etc ... which is a good thing, at least for me. And who knows? Maybe one day we'll have answers (or maybe we already got some of them, and I'm just unaware of it).

Personally I'm of the opinion that no story should include teleportation unless it's dedicated to the consequences but... too late for that. Since there are free-range teleporters in every game in the series (Maleficent in KH1), it's a dash against every game in the series, but I think the minor enemies are excused.
I think so too, dark corridors invalidate the very existence of the world barriers. What good is it if some people can just waltz through? Keyblade wielders having a way around it, I can understand; however, if control over darkness is all it takes, how come other worlds' existence is known to only a select few? I do understand the villains need a way around worlds too, to do their villainy deeds, but this still bugs me.
 

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- Where KH truly resides: is it an inter-dimensional being? Does it move around? (RoD/ KG)
Resides in the dark realm. The Door to Darkness Ansem opened is mentioned as being a road that leads to it and it was also pointed out that darkness was what KH fell into as the keyblade war ended.

- Unversed/ unbirth's true nature: I know it's negative emotions given form, but why is Vanitas the only recorded instance of this ever happening?
Because not everyone goes around ripping their students hearts in half which is what caused the negativity. It's not just Vanitas but the fact that Vanitas was ripped out of Ventus that spawned them all.

- Terra-Xehanort's memories.
Can't call it a plot hole because if his amnesia is real then it stays true to what's established and if it's proven false then it's a retcon/plothole.

- Kairi machina hug: can be chalked down to princess of heart magic.
That is honestly the only plot hole you've listed so far.

- Hollow bastion's keyhole: how is it connected to all the different worlds' borders, the princesses of heart and DtD? Why does it emit so much darkness? Why was the castle spared in the first place?
Your mistaking the "final keyhole" for an actual one. The keyhole seen in KH1 was formed from the 7 PoH like Rikunorts keyblade. The true keyhole of the world was found by ApprenticeNort a decade earlier and it's door opened which shattered it's barrier to the larger world.

Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion is also referred to as the "capital of light" which implies greater importance than other worlds.

The Final Keyhole however is the lock to the Door to Darkness as is the Keyblade of Heart it's key. All three of which are formed/summoned/opened by gathering the 7 PoH. That's either their main or one of many unknown roles as PoH. They essentially act as lock and key to the realm of light itself.

The castle was obviously sparred because either A) Maleficent decided she wanted it B) it was needed for the final keyhole or C) both.

- KH: is it really light, and only light?
Not a plot hole as it's not something that's been stated either way. A plot hole is something that leaves a literally unexplained hole in an established plot such as Sora being somehow human even though Roxas was running around with his body.

And if you wanted to go deeper into it the very fact that the original Xblade was made up of and later shattered into light AND dark would imply that darkness has always been. And if it's present within the counterpart to KH itself it's unlikely KH is not of both.

- Memories' real nature, where it resides, and how it transfers to a Nobody.
Namine explains memories nature to you. It exists like a chain in the heart. The heart itself forms one as it experiences things, i.e living a life, and it's one of the many things that make up a heart and in the cases of beings born without them like a nobody is the corner stone to form a new one.

How it transfers into the nobody is also attributed to the strong will of the heart they lost. They're so strong that they refuse to disappear and thus the nobody if born of that. Exactly how it works isn't explained nor does it need to be but we do know what transfers it and causes it.

- Namine.
That be no plot hole either since she's not been elaborated on at all. You can't have a plot hole for a being that's plot hasn't been detailed.

- Xion challenging Roxas: couldn't she just end her own life?
That was explained as well. When Axel took her back and Xemnas walked off with her he altered her so her only option left was to get Roxas to destroy her before she did him. Xemnas wasn't giving her an option.

- Xion's last request: as I understood it, although Roxas was doing what she asked, he was too rash, and she had to stop him somehow.
That's not a plot hole as you just gave the reasoning. Poor writing can also be blamed for that and Roxas being an emotional wreck.

- Ansem being Xehanort: I personally don't see this one as a problem, but it's brought up so many times by the fan-base so ... In KHI, no one could confirm ASoD's identity whereas in KHII, a third party (Ansem's friend even) revealed the truth. Unnecessary, maybe, incoherent, not so much.
In KH1 we didn't need to confirm his identity because we already knew what it was and Ansem himself confirms it. When KH1 was made and finished a sequel or series at all wasn't certain so until that point he truly was Ansem.
Meaning the big reveal in KH2 that he's an imposter is a retcon not a plot hole.

- Kairi's keyblade: or is it?
That's not really ever explained either. Whether you want to call it a plot hole or not is being hasty. Wait till KH3 and see if she uses it.

- AtW's deus ex machine: he did say anything could happen, but does that excuse anything? No. Does that make me feel better about the whole thing? A little.
That's not a plot hole just lazy writing.
- Riku not being able to open a dark corridor. Mickey: you do not belong to the dark side anymore (or something like that); me: and Namine (...) does? And yet Riku can still use darkness in battle ... Or maybe that ability came from the fragment of Xehanort in him.
Riku no longer has a fragment of Xehanort in him at that point it's why he's himself again and why he can't open a portal. Namine is a nobody nor is she like Riku so her opening a portal is totally within reason.
Though you can blame that on KH2's lazy writing as well if you wish.
- Namine (...) overwriting a journal's data (or memories? Not sure ...).
She didn't overwrite memories but added things to the journal. Overwriting involves going over what's already there but all she did was add extra.

- Time travel: It was explained really well, and was nerfed to the point it doesn't break the continuity of the series; however I can't shake the feeling it wasn't really needed ...
It truly wasn't needed but at the same time it's not a plot hole. Just an over convoluted concept that wasn't needed.

- The inception dreams: why are there sleeping worlds in Sora's dreams? Or is he dreaming them as he himself visits them? This might have been already explained somewhere though ... I also haven't played the game, so not much to say here.
That's not a plothole either bro. Sora was in the worlds dreams. Worlds to have hearts and those hearts was sleeping. Sora was in the dreams the worlds was having and Riku was in Sora's dreams.

All in all, the series is riddled with plot holes; however, because of this we can have discussions, theories, etc ... which is a good thing, at least for me. And who knows? Maybe one day we'll have answers (or maybe we already got some of them, and I'm just unaware of it).
You don't seem to understand what a plot hole is as you've only listed one. Plot holes are inconsistency in established plot however KH's plot is fore the most part just not explained as Nomura likes to leave it ambiguous. You can't plothole or retcon a fact or event that wasn't stated prior.
As it stands the only two examples you gave that's correctly called a plothole/retcon is Sora till he merged back with Roxas and the whole Ansem=Xehanort mess.

We have answers to many things you listed though Nomura fails for this cause there in places many can't access outside Japan.
 

Antifa Lockhart

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I am FURIOUS, I meant to reply and then the server went down for me and I came back and Gram had taken the post apart, but there are some things still worth addressing so I'll go into that.

- Where KH truly resides: is it an inter-dimensional being? Does it move around? (RoD/ KG)
Kingdom Hearts was lost to the Realm of Darkness, however it can be summoned by the forging of the X-Blade. Gram mentioned that the Door to Darkness was summoned to gain access to it by Xehanort in KH1, what Gram failed to mention was that the Kingdom Hearts in Kingdom Hearts 1 was a fake. As was the one in KH2. Both were forcibly produced by Xehanort's meddling in the destruction of worlds and hijacking hearts released by Heartless. The closest we've come to seeing the real deal is Birth by Sleep, and even then that's debatable as the X-Blade wasn't perfectly forged.

- Kairi machina hug: can be chalked down to princess of heart magic.
The journal of 3D states it's because of her strong feelings for him that she was able to bring him back. To be fair, this is probably likely uncharted territory for Heartless, being loved by someone. Like Ansem says in 3d, seeing the heart in something makes it real.
 

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what Gram failed to mention was that the Kingdom Hearts in Kingdom Hearts 1 was a fake. As was the one in KH2.
In my defense I didn't fail to mention it. I thought he was referring to the true actual kingdom hearts. Not all the ones we've seen as a whole. (was hasty in my reading and typing due to system lag/freezing)
 
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Antifa Lockhart

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In my defense I didn't fail to mention it. I thought he was referring to the true actual kingdom hearts. Not all the ones we've seen as a whole. (was hasty in my reading and typing due to system lag/freezing)
Perhaps I was hasty in my wording. "Neglected"

Well we can all just wait for KH3 to clear some things up for us.

You mean wait for KH3's Ultimania
 

Some guy

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What I meant to list are the "many mistakes" Blackdrazon brought up in an earlier post; as I said, many upsetting things (mostly because they lack any form of explanation ... that I know of). Most of these can be made sense of however, given enough logical guesswork ...

Your mistaking the "final keyhole" for an actual one. The keyhole seen in KH1 was formed from the 7 PoH like Rikunorts keyblade. The true keyhole of the world was found by ApprenticeNort a decade earlier and it's door opened which shattered it's barrier to the larger world.

Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion is also referred to as the "capital of light" which implies greater importance than other worlds.

The Final Keyhole however is the lock to the Door to Darkness as is the Keyblade of Heart it's key. All three of which are formed/summoned/opened by gathering the 7 PoH. That's either their main or one of many unknown roles as PoH. They essentially act as lock and key to the realm of light itself.
This is really good to know, but it bequest more questions about the PoH. Are they the lights parts of the X-blade? That would explain why they're so closely tied to a door leading to where KH is (the RoD).

How it transfers into the nobody is also attributed to the strong will of the heart they lost. They're so strong that they refuse to disappear and thus the nobody if born of that. Exactly how it works isn't explained nor does it need to be but we do know what transfers it and causes it.
I'll try to be more specific here: How can the nobody access their memories? Through a connection with their heartless/ sleeping heart? Or are the memories "migrating" somewhere in the body? Unfortunately we can only guess.

That was explained as well. When Axel took her back and Xemnas walked off with her he altered her so her only option left was to get Roxas to destroy her before she did him. Xemnas wasn't giving her an option.
I have no recollection of this, surely due my poor memory (that or the fact that I played though the game and 1.5 "movie" only once, not really my fav game)

That's not a plothole either bro. Sora was in the worlds dreams. Worlds to have hearts and those hearts was sleeping. Sora was in the dreams the worlds was having and Riku was in Sora's dreams.
I haven't played DDD, but isn'it possible to go to a world as Riku that Sora hasn't visited yet? That wouldn't be relevant either way as it would be arguing over gameplay... But still, this part wasn't explained really well in my opinion.

I agrre with anything else you said. All in all, the series' deliberate ambiguity leads to poor writing.

You don't seem to understand what a plot hole is as you've only listed one. Plot holes are inconsistency in established plot however KH's plot is fore the most part just not explained as Nomura likes to leave it ambiguous. You can't plothole or retcon a fact or event that wasn't stated prior.
As it stands the only two examples you gave that's correctly called a plothole/retcon is Sora till he merged back with Roxas and the whole Ansem=Xehanort mess.

We have answers to many things you listed though Nomura fails for this cause there in places many can't access outside Japan.
Point taken, I've done my research and it seems a plothole isn't well .. a hole in the plot, but rather an incoherence in the plot. I don't even think the machina hug is a plothole, as it can still be made sense of in a fantastical/ magical setting. As I said, I've still to see real incoherence/ inconstitencies in KH's plot.

I've read though most of the ultimanias (a long time ago ... DDD's [if any] wasn't out at the time I think), and though they cleared many points, some were still left ambiguous or are downright not explained at all.

I am FURIOUS, I meant to reply and then the server went down for me and I came back and Gram had taken the post apart, but there are some things still worth addressing so I'll go into that.
Better luck next time :)

Kingdom Hearts was lost to the Realm of Darkness, however it can be summoned by the forging of the X-Blade. Gram mentioned that the Door to Darkness was summoned to gain access to it by Xehanort in KH1, what Gram failed to mention was that the Kingdom Hearts in Kingdom Hearts 1 was a fake. As was the one in KH2. Both were forcibly produced by Xehanort's meddling in the destruction of worlds and hijacking hearts released by Heartless. The closest we've come to seeing the real deal is Birth by Sleep, and even then that's debatable as the X-Blade wasn't perfectly forged.
That's the problem though, It reatreated to the RoD and yet sill appeared reacting to the X-blade's imminent forging. But it is never stated if KH has a will of it's own; and it somewhat has the ability to go through different realms. I realize this doesn't need explaining and it can be chalked down to "duh, it's KH dude!", but it still got me thinking. (And now I remember ... Goofy: One day we'll know what the f**k Kingdom Hearts really is)

The journal of 3D states it's because of her strong feelings for him that she was able to bring him back. To be fair, this is probably likely uncharted territory for Heartless, being loved by someone. Like Ansem says in 3d, seeing the heart in something makes it real.
I understood that more as "seeing the heart in something makes it grow a heart" as seen with pinnochio (though the blue fairy might have something to do with it), Axel/ Roxas/ Xion, Data!Sora; but I could be wrong. But that still doesn't explain how Sora got a physical appearance, it could be Kairi gave him a shell (I personally don't like this theory) or Sora's heart assumed a physical form. It's also up to debate if the form Riku's heart took in the RoD (before being reunited with his body) is actually physical or not).
 

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Hahaha I feel you. My brother and I were watching ReCoded last night when he made the comment "I think that a f**king 7 year old wrote this". And I can't believe that they would use Pooh's voice actor to do the Cheshire Cat. (If it's not the same person it sure as hell sounds just like him.) They ruined it for me because all I heard and thought was Pooh Bear.
Re:Coded Theater was... ok up until CO. Then it became a needlessly drawn out ramble that kept going in circles.

BBSFM so far is holding up much better, have no notable complaints for it's 1st 5 hours as Ven.

Not that I don't agree with you on the whole but...


And Yuna is a fairy, come on. What they are in FF is irrelevant to what they are in KH. xD

Most of these complaints seem like nitpicks to me. KH2's story is probably the worst written in the series. But I quit trying to make sense of KH's story a long time ago. Hopefully they get multiple writers for KH3 so stuff like this can be avoided.

Exactly. If the FF characters have to be what they are in their respective games, Tidus and Wakka should be a lot older, and Aerith should be dead.

I would argue that while their outward appearances had changed, they still had largely the same personalities as the originals. A change in Setzer's personality is a bigger deal than a change in his appearance.
 
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