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How much of the series is planned and how much isn't?



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ReverofEnola

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Like the topic title states how of the much series do you think was planned and how much wasn't when it came to the creation of various KH games based on interviews and in-game clues/foreshadowing.

For example, I personally like dividing up the series into parts (or trilogies) and then saying which games felt planned together (since obviously Nomura and the dev team did not plan the entire series plot from day one) and which didn't (and you're free to use this template or another one too). For me it's

Kingdom Hearts 1 - Planned Standalone

KH1FM, CoM, KH2(FM) - 70% Planned

Days, BBS, Coded - 40% Planned

DDD, Unchained, 0.2 - Making it up as they go.
 

Grono

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Um, this is a great question. Let me quickly write-up what I think of each series and how much planning they did:

Kingdom Hearts - obviously, as the first one, it is pretty well realized. I will say that, at first glance, it doesn't seem like it hints at any sequels, but it clearly does, with Xemnas' cameo and Roxas' secret ending foreshadowing to II while the end of Kingdom Hearts clearly leading to Chain of Memories pretty wonderfully.

Chain of Memories - I... can't tell with this one. It is clear that several characters were changed in the next one, with Riku being a bit more self-loathing, Axel being waaaaay more compassionate (seriously, he's like a different character in II. Did he have a twin brother or something?), and Namine being a lot more risky (although this last one is more character development than different character). The organization was set up, but I'm not sure if they had the nobody final concept down yet. Maybe that's why this game is so vague as to what these characters are and where they came from?

II - II did some pretty good predicting, in my opinion. It set up the ending of Birth by Sleep, solidified what they wanted Xehanort to eventually he when he was fully realized, and the final mix version brought some significant scenes such as Axel and Roxas' relationship being explored more on the clock tower and the entirety of the Lingering Will, which is still TO THIS DAY one of the best concepts of the series. The Disney worlds were definitely pushed to the wayside and hardly scripted, however. This game didn't feel complete until the final mix came out.

Days - days seemed unfinished by the first mission. The gameplay was straight awful and the inclusion of Xion was clunky at best. As much as I like her, I can't say that anything we were shown before her time even seemed a little like she was a possibility even. Also, that thing where she can wield a keyblade but the keyblade she owns happens to be fake was weird and unnecessary.

Coded - coded feels like an afterthought, through and through. It seems like an attempt to hold people over by remaking CoM and the original while loosely connecting it to a random note in II that certainly didn't feel like it fit.

Birth by Sleep - the ending of birth by sleep seems very well realized, but it was clear that they had to save the best for last in this one, as the stuff building up to it really did not hold any water on its own. This certainly does not feel like it was thought up by Nomura in the grand scheme of things.

Dream Drop Distance - don't even get me started.

0.2 - this one definitely focused on the wrong things, not putting too much thought into why Mickey didn't go back to save Aqua immediately after shutting the door while in the meantime thinking it was necessary to show us why Mickey was shirtless at the end of I.

The X Universe - don't get me started on Back Cover either, AAH. It just annoys me that this game is clearly scripted weekly and has no throughline you can follow. Each time a new "chapter" in the story hits, you can tell Nomura just finished drafting it to go with the story. Literally nothing feels like it was prefaced, there is just too many characters that end up doing jack shit in the grand scheme of things, and it suffers from not telling you anything it's doing, why it's doing it, and when you learn of what it's doing not explaining what it actually is.

Overall, I think X is the worst example of planning, as much as I have a weird, undeserved respect for the series. It is essentially if the pronoun game was made into a video game, HOLY SHIT.

And, don't get me wrong, I hate DDD too, but it seems a little more thought out than X. But only a little.
 

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By Nomura's own admission, they think about the next game while making the current one. They were thinking of story elements of BBS while making KH2/KH2FM. They were thinking about the story elements of DDD while making BBS/Coded/etc. These would obviously be the larger story beats instead of the minute details of course, as they leave room for improvisation and collaboration and fleshing the details out, but you can see it in the way titles foreshadow other ones.
 

Grono

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By Nomura's own admission, they think about the next game while making the current one. They were thinking of story elements of BBS while making KH2/KH2FM. They were thinking about the story elements of DDD while making BBS/Coded/etc. These would obviously be the larger story beats instead of the minute details of course, but you can see it in the way titles foreshadow other ones.

This is why it's also so important to play these games in release order: because, by the way Nomura scripts these games, they only make sense in the order they were made in.

Some would debate this by saying play/watch Days before II, but I disagree entirely. If you do that before II, then the mystery of Roxas is ruined at the end of the game, Axel and Roxas' friendship seems less real than before, and no one mentioning Xion is especially weird, such as when Riku and Roxas fight and there's not even a whiff of that tension.

This isn't me saying that Days' inclusion of Xion was bad really, just that Days clearly fleshed these scenes out more than its predecessor, as they took more center-stage.
 

ImVentus

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Obviously KH1 was experimental but also must've had a planned arc

COM seemed to still have a focused path, but adding in more ideas

KH2 had somewhat of a planned continuation, at least the ending of the game felt like it was planned to close like it did. Yet it seemed like they would just start to add in more as the game got a FM.

Days seemed to be going along as the development moved forward. The only part I could imagine to follow their story from earlier would be the "Roxas leaves the organization and fights a slightly older Riku". Everything else seemed to be added just to fill in overtime.

BBS honestly seemed to be revamped at least 3 times in development. It seems like the overall first pitch was scrapped and simplified. At least the ending and black points seemed to connect with KH2 but I doubt that's what they originally had in mind.

Everything else afterwards seems to be made up as they go.
 

ReverofEnola

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Um, this is a great question. Let me quickly write-up what I think of each series and how much planning they did:

Kingdom Hearts - obviously, as the first one, it is pretty well realized. I will say that, at first glance, it doesn't seem like it hints at any sequels, but it clearly does, with Xemnas' cameo and Roxas' secret ending foreshadowing to II while the end of Kingdom Hearts clearly leading to Chain of Memories pretty wonderfully.

Chain of Memories - I... can't tell with this one. It is clear that several characters were changed in the next one, with Riku being a bit more self-loathing, Axel being waaaaay more compassionate (seriously, he's like a different character in II. Did he have a twin brother or something?), and Namine being a lot more risky (although this last one is more character development than different character). The organization was set up, but I'm not sure if they had the nobody final concept down yet. Maybe that's why this game is so vague as to what these characters are and where they came from?

II - II did some pretty good predicting, in my opinion. It set up the ending of Birth by Sleep, solidified what they wanted Xehanort to eventually he when he was fully realized, and the final mix version brought some significant scenes such as Axel and Roxas' relationship being explored more on the clock tower and the entirety of the Lingering Will, which is still TO THIS DAY one of the best concepts of the series. The Disney worlds were definitely pushed to the wayside and hardly scripted, however. This game didn't feel complete until the final mix came out.

Days - days seemed unfinished by the first mission. The gameplay was straight awful and the inclusion of Xion was clunky at best. As much as I like her, I can't say that anything we were shown before her time even seemed a little like she was a possibility even. Also, that thing where she can wield a keyblade but the keyblade she owns happens to be fake was weird and unnecessary.

Coded - coded feels like an afterthought, through and through. It seems like an attempt to hold people over by remaking CoM and the original while loosely connecting it to a random note in II that certainly didn't feel like it fit.

Birth by Sleep - the ending of birth by sleep seems very well realized, but it was clear that they had to save the best for last in this one, as the stuff building up to it really did not hold any water on its own. This certainly does not feel like it was thought up by Nomura in the grand scheme of things.

Dream Drop Distance - don't even get me started.

0.2 - this one definitely focused on the wrong things, not putting too much thought into why Mickey didn't go back to save Aqua immediately after shutting the door while in the meantime thinking it was necessary to show us why Mickey was shirtless at the end of I.

The X Universe - don't get me started on Back Cover either, AAH. It just annoys me that this game is clearly scripted weekly and has no throughline you can follow. Each time a new "chapter" in the story hits, you can tell Nomura just finished drafting it to go with the story. Literally nothing feels like it was prefaced, there is just too many characters that end up doing jack shit in the grand scheme of things, and it suffers from not telling you anything it's doing, why it's doing it, and when you learn of what it's doing not explaining what it actually is.

Overall, I think X is the worst example of planning, as much as I have a weird, undeserved respect for the series. It is essentially if the pronoun game was made into a video game, HOLY SHIT.

And, don't get me wrong, I hate DDD too, but it seems a little more thought out than X. But only a little.

I'm glad we agree on how the more "recent" KH game's plot aren't too throughly planned out.

Anyway as for the concept of Nobodies I thought that was sort of finalized by CoM. What I mean is KH1FM gives us Ansem's Report 13 which gives us the definition as to what a Nobody technically is. Through having Ansem wonder what happens to a person's body after they become a Heartless and even suggests that their might be another "you" out there in the world who is neither light or darkness and doesn't truly exist.

This in turn foreshadows not only Nobodies but even Roxas as well since Sora did turn into a Heartless in that game AND Unknown stated Sora looked just like him.

As for KH2FM there IS foreshadowing for BBS with Xigbar quotes, Xemnas talking to Aqua's armor , and even the secret ending giving us their faces. However, there really is a lack of foreshadowing for Days and the Roxas/Axel cutscene honestly hurts Days more than helps it imo since:
A. No clear foreshadowing for Xion.
B. Roxas puts a lot more emphasis on his friendship with Hayner, Pence, and Olette in that cutscene which Days never explores except for ONE day when Roxas is on break in that game.

It really makes me think that most of the concepts in Days were more last minute additions. Which is weird because BBS came out AFTER Days yet there was tons of foreshadowing for that game in KH2FM.
 
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As a writer I keep a document for just the ideas i get. Whenever i need inspiration i refer back to it so i think Nomura did the same for the post kh2 era.

Days/Coded/Unchained/DDD probably came from that list and thats not inherently bad. Most of the problems are from how he incorporates them.

For example, Days would have been better off as a Riku game than Roxas's as his time between CoM and 2 is more vague. That allows you to take greater liberties with that time period because you have less to compare it to. Which is why people hate Terra less than Xion: he's an idiot but he doesn't really contradict anything established.

So having Xion be created by DiZ rather than Xemnas would have served her character better. It allows you to juggle both sides of the conflict better. DiZ creates Xion as a Namine decoy: to throw the Organization of their scent and to gain Intel etc. Xion is successful but she defects to the Organization because DiZ treats her like shit. Axel feeds her some spiel about her getting her own heart and becoming a real person etc.

When she inevitably dies Roxas blames Riku seeing him as big a threat as Xemnas. That sets up their fight at the end of the game. Riku's guilt over Xion and her defection/demise weighs on his conscience giving him the self-loathing he has in kh2.

So you could have done something similar with Coded and DDD to make it better. Even if Coded is an excuse plot and you would have to scrap it entirely.
 
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