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How would canon change if Roxas had Sora's appearance instead of Ven's and Naminé had Sora's or Kairi's?



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Y. Alex A. R.

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I saw a few seconds ago here a thread 'bout Roxas looking same as Sora, but none of the replies seemed to really address it from an In-Universe perspective.
Roxas is Sora's Nobody. What if he looked identical to Sora instead of looking very similar to Ven?
Similarly, what if Naminé looked identical to Sora?
Or what if Naminé looked identical to Kairi?
There's at least 3 different scenarios to consider, an' that's before considering what if Roxas-looks-identical-to-Sora & Naminé-looks-identical-to-Sora happen in same Universe.
For each scenario, K.H.:BbS all happened exactly how it did in canon; Ven's appearance stays the way it is in canon & same goes for Vanitas.
How are the events of Castle Oblivion affected? Would Naminé be told to make Sora think that Naminé is his twin in the Sora-looking Naminé 'verse? Would there be no memory changing in the Kairi-looking Naminé 'verse?
Then there's K.H.: Days. Does his having met Sora in Castle Oblivion affect how Axel treats Sora-looking Roxas? Would Xion wonder if she's connected to Roxas coz of the memories & realise her origins sooner? How would Riku react to basically killing someone with the face of his best friend after already playing a role in another lookalike deciding to suicide?

Maybe I should write a bunch of fanfics 'bout this...



Edit: What type of plot-affecting Butterfly Effects could be caused by these scenarios?
 
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@Y. Alex A. R.

I think KH2 would've been simpler if Roxas was another regular nobody. You could still keep the memory loss because Kairi brought Sora back from being a heartless. Roxas looking like Sora would've helped keep the mystery arc going. The new disney worlds could confuse Sora for Roxas and accuse him of things Roxas did before the game. That also allows the Disney worlds to be more connected to the Organization stuff but still be tangential.

Roxas looking Sora wouldn't change Axel's relationship with him. He might join Sora sooner because they have a greater similiarity to each other than they do in canon.

Nomura was torn about who Ven resembles before choosing Roxas. Having Ventus look like Sora allows us to do a reincarnation plot. Ventus died while fighting Xehanort and reincarnates into Sora. BBS becames a game about Sora retracing Ven's steps in order to figure out what happened years before with Xehanort.

Namine looking like Sora or Kairi just changes her cover story in the new memories. If she looks like Sora, than she pretends to be his sister. I guess she could contemplate merging with Sora at the end of CoM but she and Roxas have to do it at the same time. So she and Roxas would merge with Sora in the beginning of 2 and that explains where she goes for the majority of the game.

Namine looking like kairi just changes her cover story- she pretends to be kairi's twin sister. Not much would actually change and you might need to give them different looks to seperate them. They'd end up in the same place.
 
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Y. Alex A. R.

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@Y. Alex A. R.

I think KH2 would've been simpler if Roxas was another regular nobody. You could still keep the memory loss because Kairi brought Sora back from being a heartless. Roxas looking like Sora would've helped keep the mystery arc going. The new disney worlds could confuse Sora for Roxas and accuse him of things Roxas did before the game. That also allows the Disney worlds to be more connected to the Organization stuff but still be tangential.

Roxas looking Sora wouldn't change Axel's relationship with him. He might join Sora sooner because they have a greater similiarity to each other than they do in canon.

Nomura was torn about who Ven resembles before choosing Roxas. Having Ventus look like Sora allows us to do a reincarnation plot. Ventus died while fighting Xehanort and reincarnates into Sora. BBS becames a game about Sora retracing Ven's steps in order to figure out what happened years before with Xehanort.

Namine looking like Sora or Kairi just changes her cover story in the new memories. If she looks like Sora, than she pretends to be his sister. I guess she could contemplate merging with Sora at the end of CoM but she and Roxas have to do it at the same time. So she and Roxas would merge with Sora in the beginning of 2 and that explains where she goes for the majority of the game.

Namine looking like kairi just changes her cover story- she pretends to be kairi's twin sister. Not much would actually change and you might need to give them different looks to seperate them. They'd end up in the same place.
AWESOME ideas!! Thanks for responding.

Is it okay if I use these for a few fanfics? I'll link to this in Author's Notes so you'll get credit.
 
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AWESOME ideas!! Thanks for responding.

Is it okay if I use these for a few fanfics? I'll link to this in Author's Notes so you'll get credit.
Sure pal.

I go by LightJakRises on Archiveofourown.org or Fanfiction.net.
 
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Noivern

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I saw a few seconds ago here a thread 'bout Roxas looking same as Sora, but none of the replies seemed to really address it from an In-Universe perspective.
Roxas is Sora's Nobody. What if he looked identical to Sora instead of looking very similar to Ven?

I'm not sure if this is what you meant by the other thread, but in-universe, Roxas very much looks identical to Sora. Like, it's what everyone says throughout the entire KH2, confusing Sora for him. It does help that they also had the same face while future interations of Roxas had a slighly different face shape to match Ven, as Sora has more pronunceable cheeks.

It's pretty stupid from our perspective where we differentiate anime characters by their hair and can tell they're different, though.
 

kirabook

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Back in the KH2 days, Sora and Roxas WERE considered identical except their hair colors/style. It's only recently that people have either forgotten that, or in my opinion, the devs are going out of their way to make that resemblance less so.

It's not that they look any different per say, but NO ONE COMMENTS ON IT. No one said anything about Ven and Roxas being identical. Ven and Sora had a split second reaction to Vanitas looking like Sora. Ven has no reaction to looking like Sora. Aqua and Terra had nothing to say about the long lost triplets gathered in their presence.

Namine, Kairi, and Xion are implied to be even more identical but no one says anything about that either.

It's weird. Truly the reason why I think they're backing away from that is to further express they are all their own people now. But I feel they don't really need to do that, just call them all siblings. Like Vanitas was trying to do with Sora and Ven.
 

SweetYetSalty

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Back in the KH2 days, Sora and Roxas WERE considered identical except their hair colors/style. It's only recently that people have either forgotten that, or in my opinion, the devs are going out of their way to make that resemblance less so.

It's not that they look any different per say, but NO ONE COMMENTS ON IT. No one said anything about Ven and Roxas being identical. Ven and Sora had a split second reaction to Vanitas looking like Sora. Ven has no reaction to looking like Sora. Aqua and Terra had nothing to say about the long lost triplets gathered in their presence.

Namine, Kairi, and Xion are implied to be even more identical but no one says anything about that either.

It's weird. Truly the reason why I think they're backing away from that is to further express they are all their own people now. But I feel they don't really need to do that, just call them all siblings. Like Vanitas was trying to do with Sora and Ven.
Axel mentioned Ven and Roxas being identical twice in KH3. But beyond that, yeah they weirdly don't draw attention to it, even when they are within distance of one another.

Honestly I miss the days of Sora and Roxas looking identical. It doesn't feel like a thing anymore. Roxas looks like Ventus now, so they are the new twin pair. Though hardly any attention is brought to that either. It's most likely they didn't want to put Roxas in the Ventus/Vanitas/Sora storyline. Or maybe Sora sees all the clone characters as their own unique person and rarely makes the connection himself?

Then on the Kairis side. It makes sense why Sora didn't make the connection in CoM with Namine because of all the memory nonsense going on. But Kairi herself isn't surprised when a ghostly blonde version of herself saves her in KH2. The KH2 manga tried to salvage that a little bit by having Kairi realize Namine's her Nobody before merging. At least Riku knows they smell the same.

Then there's Xion and nobody at all is confused by her. In Days Riku and Axel think she looks like Kairi and Namine respectively (though I don't think she turns into them) And a big deal is centered around why she took a Kairi-like appearance. Much like the Sora/Roxas thing, this goes ignored by KH3. Neither Sora or Kairi seemed shocked that a third version of her is here. Heck, Sora's not even concerned that she has a Kingdom Key. ReMind teases they were gonna do something with Kairi and Xion, but ultimately don't.

I get they want to say these characters are their own. They are, but don't ignore the connections they all shared before. Personally the clone characters all interacting in one room together was one of the things I was looking forward to going into KH3, so I was quite sad it more or less didn't happen.
 

Noivern

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My personal headcanon is that after Ven's heart started to awaken post KH1, it started to affect Sora's body a little and that is why he changes so much from 1 to 2, with the lighter hair color and repentine growth spurt.
 

kirabook

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I think Ven has been affecting Sora's appearance since he was born and their hearts connected. Even as a little kid, Sora is strikingly similar to Ven in appearance. Aqua even comments as much but doesn't make an actual connection between the two.

I think Ven and Sora were also meant to look almost exactly alike (since you know, Roxas and Sora do. Not to mention Vanitas). But yeah... the story really doesn't bother to touch on them much. I had forgotten that Axel commented on it twice, but everyone just shrugs their shoulders and don't care? I dunno. I feel like...

Well, I guess in reality, the problem is we don't have enough content of all these characters together in a normal setting. There's no time where they really have time to take this in. And when there is time, it's skipped over and we don't get to see it.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Well, I guess in reality, the problem is we don't have enough content of all these characters together in a normal setting. There's no time where they really have time to take this in. And when there is time, it's skipped over and we don't get to see it.
This I think is the core of the issue even without theorizing about any "canon changes" in terms of appearances.

Sora, Roxas and Ventus do not have much interaction among themselves at all as well as with other major characters.
In vanilla KH 3 these characters interacted almost nothing at all while Re:Mind added some small extra fluff scenes like Sora and Roxas talking within the awakening stations or during the battle against the Xehanort Replicas Roxas and Ventus trade some compliments but that's it.
They're also all interactions within the heat of battle or the important, urging plot shenanigans, not a setting where they can focus primarily on each other.

The supposedly super special heart connection between Sora and Ven also isn't addressed at all while their first in-person meeting is somewhat surface-esque resolved with a single handshake despite all the up-played importance since BBS because everything has to rush towards the final battles instead of giving the characters room to breathe and, y'know actually interact and connect on a personal level instead of only the abstract meta-physical one.
Saving Ven and Aqua both during the half-way point of the game instead of directly before the final destination and giving them some interaction with SDG, Mickey, Riku and Kairi as well as general attention beyond a single scene could have already worked wonders.

It's really a big waste to not take advantage of the potential gems that the relationships between these characters could bring, which I suspect also partly hinges on the so far insistence to keep the BBS and Days characters confined to their own trios .
Only the original Destiny Trio is apparently being "allowed" to break out of the box with Kairi now apparently "joining" the BBS crew by becoming Aqua's pupil but on the other hand this could also be read as a disadvantage because this one has been barely a trio ever since the reunion scene in KH 2.

---
When it comes to the whole looking alike issue though that has been acknowledged by several characters like Aqua in BBS, Axel/Lea in KH 3, Riku in DDD (during the ending when in Sora's heart he mistakes Ven for Roxas for just a second before realizing he's someone else), Xigbar indirectly in the Days reports etc., just not by the involved characters themselves.
 
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I think when 2.5 came around they gave Roxas a different face so he looked less like Ven. I also think it was supposed to make him look more like Sora but eh they still looked way different to me. Then KH3 rolled around and while Roxas and Ven looked nigh-identical again Sora and Roxas once more had different faces.

As for Kairi, Namine, and Xion...I have a harder time trying to see if they're identical in the face department. I dunno, I just never saw the latter two as looking like Kairi even tho that was supposed to be the case
 

kirabook

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Namine looks the least like them because of her hair and demeanor I think. But if you put their faces on top of each other, they probably look more alike that Sora and Roxas do now.
 

Noivern

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I think Ven has been affecting Sora's appearance since he was born and their hearts connected. Even as a little kid, Sora is strikingly similar to Ven in appearance. Aqua even comments as much but doesn't make an actual connection between the two.

I think Ven and Sora were also meant to look almost exactly alike (since you know, Roxas and Sora do. Not to mention Vanitas). But yeah... the story really doesn't bother to touch on them much. I had forgotten that Axel commented on it twice, but everyone just shrugs their shoulders and don't care? I dunno. I feel like...

Well, I guess in reality, the problem is we don't have enough content of all these characters together in a normal setting. There's no time where they really have time to take this in. And when there is time, it's skipped over and we don't get to see it.

While I don't necessarily disagree without here, I personally choose to believe Ven had nothing to do with Sora's appearance before KH2 because otherwise, Sora was never much of his own person.
I always interpreted the Aqua dialogue as them having a similar vibe, as their personalities are pretty alike.

That being said, we'll never have a satisfying answer to this because on top of the usual badly written KH plots we are used to deal with, this is also an anime game. With Nomura's art style, on top of it.

There's just so much we can do to tell characters apart in Nomura's art when they are in the same age range, as it mostly boils down to their color scheme and haircut. lol
 

kirabook

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While I don't necessarily disagree without here, I personally choose to believe Ven had nothing to do with Sora's appearance before KH2 because otherwise, Sora was never much of his own person.
I always interpreted the Aqua dialogue as them having a similar vibe, as their personalities are pretty alike.

That being said, we'll never have a satisfying answer to this because on top of the usual badly written KH plots we are used to deal with, this is also an anime game. With Nomura's art style, on top of it.

There's just so much we can do to tell characters apart in Nomura's art when they are in the same age range, as it mostly boils down to their color scheme and haircut. lol

I feel like that's kinda part of the plot though, right?

Take DDD for example, Tron world when Xemnas shows up. He taunts Sora with "Are you sure you are who you think you are?" "Does the content of the box match the -somethingsomethingIdon'tremember-." Xigbar saying Sora only matters because of the people he's connected to. Xehanort thinking Sora is a nothingburger, but all his other choices are running dry and he's good enough to replace the likes of Roxas.

Now, I don't think that means Sora is not his own person. I don't even think the implication is there, even though Ven is the first one, Sora's always been the "originator". It's not a Roxas situation where he's struggling with his identity. I think of it more like Namine explained it. Sora and Ven have a very special deep bond that has been with Sora his entire life. That, to me, feels more like well, siblings? Soulmates even. Not to be perceived as negative.

It's not like Roxas where Ven maybe completely overwrote who Sora was or what he looked like. Sora is clearly his own person and not just because of his hair (I actually think Ven might be a little more reckless than Sora personality wise, but after KH3, who can say).

Does that make sense? I may be rambling.
 

AegisXIII

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I feel like that's kinda part of the plot though, right?

Take DDD for example, Tron world when Xemnas shows up. He taunts Sora with "Are you sure you are who you think you are?" "Does the content of the box match the -somethingsomethingIdon'tremember-." Xigbar saying Sora only matters because of the people he's connected to. Xehanort thinking Sora is a nothingburger, but all his other choices are running dry and he's good enough to replace the likes of Roxas.

Now, I don't think that means Sora is not his own person. I don't even think the implication is there, even though Ven is the first one, Sora's always been the "originator". It's not a Roxas situation where he's struggling with his identity. I think of it more like Namine explained it. Sora and Ven have a very special deep bond that has been with Sora his entire life. That, to me, feels more like well, siblings? Soulmates even. Not to be perceived as negative.

It's not like Roxas where Ven maybe completely overwrote who Sora was or what he looked like. Sora is clearly his own person and not just because of his hair (I actually think Ven might be a little more reckless than Sora personality wise, but after KH3, who can say).

Does that make sense? I may be rambling.
No it does make perfect sense.

i think Kh3 explanation from Vanitas is the best explanation:
I am the piece of Ventus that was taken away and you are the piece Ventus needed to be whole again. So I do not think it is meant to be perceived as one impacted the other but rather that Sora was the person whose heart was the closest to what Ventus was missing. They are connected by randomness. Then, once the connection is established, they share a bond, but it is not like one is possessing the other.
 

Noivern

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I feel like that's kinda part of the plot though, right?

Take DDD for example, Tron world when Xemnas shows up. He taunts Sora with "Are you sure you are who you think you are?" "Does the content of the box match the -somethingsomethingIdon'tremember-." Xigbar saying Sora only matters because of the people he's connected to. Xehanort thinking Sora is a nothingburger, but all his other choices are running dry and he's good enough to replace the likes of Roxas.

Now, I don't think that means Sora is not his own person. I don't even think the implication is there, even though Ven is the first one, Sora's always been the "originator". It's not a Roxas situation where he's struggling with his identity. I think of it more like Namine explained it. Sora and Ven have a very special deep bond that has been with Sora his entire life. That, to me, feels more like well, siblings? Soulmates even. Not to be perceived as negative.

It's not like Roxas where Ven maybe completely overwrote who Sora was or what he looked like. Sora is clearly his own person and not just because of his hair (I actually think Ven might be a little more reckless than Sora personality wise, but after KH3, who can say).

Does that make sense? I may be rambling.
It makes perfect sense, don't worry! But I don't really interpret it that way either since no matter how much I squint, Ventus and Sora are literally the same person. If you put Sora in Ven's place in BBS I believe he would have acted exactly the same way the former did, even down to the borderline suicidal sacrifice for someone else.

Obviously, the sum of its parts matter more than just the personality alone as the physical appearance, their friends and what they actually went through helps giving them some individuality, but personality wise I have to squint to put them apart.

I think with UX and KH3 Nomura wanted to portray Ventus as softer and more fragile, but still brash and able to take action for others when needed, but if I look at the character from BBS it's pretty much just Sora, but blonde.

But ehh, that's just me rambling at this point and nothing that will contribute more to the original topic. I love both of those dumbasses in the end regardless.
 

kirabook

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It makes perfect sense, don't worry! But I don't really interpret it that way either since no matter how much I squint, Ventus and Sora are literally the same person. If you put Sora in Ven's place in BBS I believe he would have acted exactly the same way the former did, even down to the borderline suicidal sacrifice for someone else.

Obviously, the sum of its parts matter more than just the personality alone as the physical appearance, their friends and what they actually went through helps giving them some individuality, but personality wise I have to squint to put them apart.

I think with UX and KH3 Nomura wanted to portray Ventus as softer and more fragile, but still brash and able to take action for others when needed, but if I look at the character from BBS it's pretty much just Sora, but blonde.

But ehh, that's just me rambling at this point and nothing that will contribute more to the original topic. I love both of those dumbasses in the end regardless.

You see, you'd think Sora would have come to the same conclusions as Ven in BbS (like asking Terra and Aqua to kill him), but when I thought about it, I noticed a small key difference.

It happens in KH3.

Sora and Ven are trying to get through to Vanitas like "Come on man, it don't gotta be this way" and Vanitas is stubborn through and through. Ven gives up and accepts Vanitas's fate. Sora, on the other hand, was persistent to the end like "What? No you dummy! Why aren't you listening?!"

I think as people, they are both self sacrificial for sure. There's no question. But... it does seem like Sora's more willing to reach out to the other side and slap some sense into them where Ven, from what we've seen, doesn't really do that. Or rather, he has his limits. Like, would Ven have been so chummy with some of the org members like Sora was when he was taking them out? I dunno.
 

Sephiroth0812

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You see, you'd think Sora would have come to the same conclusions as Ven in BbS (like asking Terra and Aqua to kill him), but when I thought about it, I noticed a small key difference.

It happens in KH3.

Sora and Ven are trying to get through to Vanitas like "Come on man, it don't gotta be this way" and Vanitas is stubborn through and through. Ven gives up and accepts Vanitas's fate. Sora, on the other hand, was persistent to the end like "What? No you dummy! Why aren't you listening?!"

I think as people, they are both self sacrificial for sure. There's no question. But... it does seem like Sora's more willing to reach out to the other side and slap some sense into them where Ven, from what we've seen, doesn't really do that. Or rather, he has his limits. Like, would Ven have been so chummy with some of the org members like Sora was when he was taking them out? I dunno.
It's not just in KH 3, it can also be seen when comparing Ven and Sora in BBS and KH 1 respectively when dealing with Phil in Olympus.

When he says they can't be trained/enter the games both boys are disappointed and pout a bit, but Ventus ultimately accepts and relents while Sora remains stubborn and argues further.

Also in terms of brashness I'd say Sora is clearly the more brash one which also shows in their behavior towards authority figures. Ven is polite and respectful to people like Queen Minnie or Yen Sid while Sora comes waltzing in with a "Hey there" and is scolded more than once by Donald.

There are several of those more or less subtle differences between them and even with their very similar core personality traits there can be made points to separate them somewhat via background experiences etc., I even remember there being whole essays about that topic but I can't find the links anymore on my new PC.

Either way though it comes down to the same issue again that they barely interact or spend otherwise time together to flesh them out both in similarities and discrepancies. With Sora and Ventus it is somewhat extra jarring due to their supposed special connection but as already said it is a general problem with how the KH series, at least in the games, handles its characters and their relationships.

The overarching plot and its narrative of being maximum "surprising" by having one filibuster of twists after another is taking center stage and the characters have to behave according to the demands of these plot lines.
In KH it is not the characters making the plot but them transforming and reacting to the demands of a preconceived plot.
 
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I'm not sure if this is what you meant by the other thread, but in-universe, Roxas very much looks identical to Sora. Like, it's what everyone says throughout the entire KH2, confusing Sora for him. It does help that they also had the same face while future interations of Roxas had a slighly different face shape to match Ven, as Sora has more pronunceable cheeks.

It's pretty stupid from our perspective where we differentiate anime characters by their hair and can tell they're different, though.
The op is referring to an old thread in the Kh2 section. It was a what if thread that asked a similar question. It probably got deleted when the forums got reorganized.
 

*TwilightNight*

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In-universe, Roxas and Sora look-alike and other characters have stated such. It doesn't matter how we view it in a meta sense. For Naminè to look like Sora makes no sense because she was born of Kairi, and not him. They would have to switch up her origins completely or take Kairi out of the equation. Sora has nothing to do with Naminè's body or appearance. She wouldn't even be Naminè.

Roxas and Ventus should not have been separate characters in my opinion. Aside from Ven needing to meet expectations in comparison to the vastly more popular Roxas, it makes him lack a unique trait. His personality is Walmart Sora too. Nomura likes to go for the non-predictable approach, so despite Ventus being Roxas making sense in story and bringing things full circle immaculately, he dumped it cause "it's not shocking enough". So now we add another number to the building bloated cast and he opted to add Ventus in the KHUx narrative to help his lack of popularity. Mind, he only does that for male characters (Ven and Riku).
 
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