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I think it's time this was brought up again



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Memory Master

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I know it has been since before BBS was released that people have actually discussed this but I figure with all the new info we gained form 358/2 Days, BBS, and Re:Coded, maybe we can come up with some new ideas regarding this topic.

The topic is "Unexplained existences in the KH Series"

Alright we got our somebodies, Nobodies, Heartless, Replicas, Unversed, and Dream Eaters.

But there are two existences that have not been explained yet as to what they are and how they are made.

Those two existences are Namine and Terra's Lingering Will.

At first Ansem the Wise calls Namine a special nobody but even he admits she lacks all the things that a nobody has, and his suggestion that Namine is a special nobody was a hypothesis, not actual fact. As such it remains unclear what Namine truly is. If she is not a nobody then she must be something else, but what?

Then we have Terra's Lingering Will. We can assume a few things about this being: 1. It has some of Terra's memories as we saw in KH2 Final Mix and it also carries emotions of anger and hate toward Xehanort and devotion to Aqua and Ventus. At first this almost makes Lingering Will seem like an Unversed, but there must be more to it than that. After all Lingering Will has sentience and can even speak (Suggesting a higher level of intellegence than Unversed which act more like puppets carrying out their masters will).

Terranort remarks "Your body submits, your heart sucumbs, so why does your mind resist?" before facing Lingering Will. So the Lingering Will has something to do with the mind it seems. But what is the mind exactly? We are told 3 parts make up a whole being (Heart, Body, and Soul) yet we know the heart is made up of things as well such as memories and emotions. So the mind/will of a person must also be a part of either the soul or heart.

So discuss away on ideas and theories about these two unexplained existences.
 

Vani

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LS is pretty much memories and feelings bottled up in Terra's armor. A sentiment to Terra's existence. I don't think there's much else to it than that.
Namine is still a huge mystery. I had a theory that she was a sentiment as well, in this case of the memories Sora and Kairi felt for each other. But I doubt it. I don't think it's really that important to be honest nor do I see her existence being explained anytime soon if at all.
 

Nayru's Love

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Namine was born like a Nobody in the sense that she was the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's disappearing body, so I find it easier to classify her as some type of Nobody, as opposed to listing her under an entirely new category of beings.

Ask for Lingering Will, I think he's the physical manifestation (for lack of a better term) of Terra's mind. My idea of what the mind is in KH is that it's your conscience in the real world. Notice the differences between when Riku resisted XH and when Terra resisted MX. Unlike Terra, Riku managed to manifest himself into a conscious, ghostly form. When Terra resisted MX, he didn't manifest himself the same way Riku did. The main difference is that Riku's mind was with his heart, whereas Terra's mind was in his armor.
 

Memory Master

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Namine was born like a Nobody in the sense that she was the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's disappearing body, so I find it easier to classify her as some type of Nobody, as opposed to listing her under an entirely new category of beings.

Ask for Lingering Will, I think he's the physical manifestation (for lack of a better term) of Terra's mind. My idea of what the mind is in KH is that it's your conscience in the real world. Notice the differences between when Riku resisted XH and when Terra resisted MX. Unlike Terra, Riku managed to manifest himself into a conscious, ghostly form. When Terra resisted MX, he didn't manifest himself the same way Riku did. The main difference is that Riku's mind was with his heart, whereas Terra's mind was in his armor.

If there was definative proof that Namine was indeed a special nobody, I would leave it at that. But Ansem the Wise left it very vague in his reports and even said she lacks all the things that make a nobody a nobody.

Now while I don't see Namine's existence being addressed in the Xehanort saga, I do think maybe it will be a focus in the next saga. Perhaps we may even find more beings like her.

The thing that gets me about Lingering Sentiment and whatever connection it has to the mind, is that in the secret ending of BBS we see Terra and MX's hearts speaking to each other. If Terra's mind was with his armor then how can Terra's heart be speaking to MX's?

As for Riku, wasn't his heart trying to project a body but he was too weakened to actually do so, so instead it ended up looking ghostly. Where as Vanitas was able to project a stable body around his heart. Then again, has Nomura ever actually said anything about heart projection bodies, or is that just something fans have come up with to explain certain instances such as Riku and Vanitas?

Kairi is a Princess of Heart so may have something to with Namine's "uniqueness".

Perhaps. Here is an interesting thought though I doubt it is true, but Vanitas was able to easily turn his emotions into unversed, and he was a being of pure darkness. So what if Hearts of pure light can also create a type of creature too, and Namine is such a case? A being that can only be made from a heart of pure light.
 

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Namine is an enigma, but I think that the idea of Kairi being a Princess of Heart probably does have something to do with it. If it was simply the fact that Sora had Kairi's heart at the time that he released his own, I would say that there should have been more Nobodies than just Xemnas in the Terra/Xehanort/Eraqus situation. I have a feeling we'll learn more about that in upcoming games, although I have no idea if there is anything about it in DDD.

I always saw the Lingering Sentiment as more of an echo, I suppose. I don't think that Terra's mind was actually inside his armor fighting back, but doing so from his own body. Here is how I see it: Xehanort's heart was invading his body and taking over his heart. Terra wanted to fight back and did, but his heart was still covered in darkness from their battle and Xehanort's was also there, using that darkness to imprison him. I believe that his will to take his body back and, especially after seeing the X-blade being forged, save his friends gave his mind the power to control his armor from afar.

By that logic, the LS itself isn't necessarily a manifestation of his mind so much as it is being controlled by his mind when his will is particularly strong, such as when Xehanort has stolen his body and Sora gets close enough for him to sense Ven's heart. Terra obviously hasn't had the strength to take back his body from the time Xehanort hijacks it until he creates Ansem SoD and Xemnas, so perhaps the only way that he can fight back is to take control of his armor by sheer force of will. It would mean his mind is resisting, but his mind wouldn't actually have gone anywhere.
 
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Nayru's Love

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If there was definative proof that Namine was indeed a special nobody, I would leave it at that. But Ansem the Wise left it very vague in his reports and even said she lacks all the things that make a nobody a nobody.

I like to label Nobodies by their birth as opposed to their components; they're "what's left behind by the heart." Even in Namine is "nothing," she's still the creation of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body. Otherwise, we may as well say that Roxas is a complete Somebody instead of a Nobody.

The thing that gets me about Lingering Sentiment and whatever connection it has to the mind, is that in the secret ending of BBS we see Terra and MX's hearts speaking to each other. If Terra's mind was with his armor then how can Terra's heart be speaking to MX's?
Vanitas has gone to show that you can have two consciences acting simultaneously, one in the real world and one inside your heart.

As for Riku, wasn't his heart trying to project a body but he was too weakened to actually do so, so instead it ended up looking ghostly. Where as Vanitas was able to project a stable body around his heart. Then again, has Nomura ever actually said anything about heart projection bodies, or is that just something fans have come up with to explain certain instances such as Riku and Vanitas?

I'm referring more towards when he was still sharing his body with XH (inside HB, with him, Kairi, and Donald and Goofy).

Perhaps. Here is an interesting thought though I doubt it is true, but Vanitas was able to easily turn his emotions into unversed, and he was a being of pure darkness. So what if Hearts of pure light can also create a type of creature too, and Namine is such a case? A being that can only be made from a heart of pure light.

I like to think that the Unversed were a result of Vanitas' unnatural birth instead of him being a heart of pure darkness. If you think about it, Vanitas' heart acts as both an incomplete heart and a full-fledged heart. It's like it's real and unreal, if you ask me.

Namine is an enigma, but I think that the idea of Kairi being a Princess of Heart probably does have something to do with it. If it was simply the fact that Sora had Kairi's heart at the time that he released his own, I would say that there should have been more Nobodies than just Xemnas in the Terra/Xehanort/Eraqus situation. I have a feeling we'll learn more about that in upcoming games, although I have no idea if there is anything about it in DDD.

With Xehanort, he only expelled one heart/entity, that being XH. That's why he only has one Nobody.

I always saw the Lingering Sentiment as more of an echo, I suppose. I don't think that Terra's mind was actually inside his armor fighting back, but doing so from his own body. Here is how I see it: Xehanort's heart was invading his body and taking over his heart. Terra wanted to fight back and did, but his heart was still covered in darkness from their battle and Xehanort's was also there, using that darkness to imprison him. I believe that his will to take his body back and, especially after seeing the X-blade being forged, save his friends gave his mind the power to control his armor from afar.

By that logic, the LS itself isn't necessarily a manifestation of his mind so much as it is being controlled by his mind when his will is particularly strong, such as when Xehanort has stolen his body and Sora gets close enough for him to sense Ven's heart. Terra obviously hasn't had the strength to take back his body from the time Xehanort hijacks it until he creates Ansem SoD and Xemnas, so perhaps the only way that he can fight back is to take control of his armor by sheer force of will. It would mean his mind is resisting, but his mind wouldn't actually have gone anywhere.

I don't know how Terra's mind could control Lingering Will if Xehanort ends up being worlds away, such as when he fought Sora.
 

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I don't know how Terra's mind could control Lingering Will if Xehanort ends up being worlds away, such as when he fought Sora.

That's why I used the term "echo." If he managed to control his armor with his mind during BBS, the FM+ fight with Sora may have been due to his will being residual. What I mean is, there may have been something left behind that recognized Ven's heart on its own and reacted the way Terra would have without actually being connected to Terra.

I can't remember if we actually know for sure who Xemnas is talking to in the Chamber of Repose, but there's a popular theory that it is an LS of sorts for Aqua. In BBS, she controls her armor with her mind to get Terra back to the realm of light. We can see in Blank Points that she obviously hasn't been talking to anyone outside of the realm of darkness, but if it is her armor talking back to him, I think that illustrates what I'm saying is possible with Terra. Their wills are residual and can act with a will of their own, but their minds aren't actually present.

That's just how I rationalize it, though. I'm not sure if that made any sense. *shrug* :)
 

Mirby

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The whole battle at the end of BBS was Terra's will being manifest in his armor. I just figured that some of that will remained dormant for the decade or so between BBS and FM+ and was reawakened by Ven's heart in Sora.
 

gottaluvkh1992

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Kairi is a Princess of Heart so may have something to with Namine's "uniqueness".

I think this is strongly why Namine is different, looking at the whole Heartless Nobody issue, Heartless are made when someone loses their heart to darkness. Well Kairi had a heart of pure light, so she couldn't form a heartless, hence when Sora freed his heart using Oblivion and turned himself into a heartless the release of his heart also made Roxas so I think that because Kairi's heart was released just like Sora's, only with no darkness inside it, only a nobody was formed. Namine. At least that's what I tell myself to help me sleep at night ^_^ XD

And as for LS, I thought it was Terra's will pushing out of his body and into the armour, the last of his strength and will to stop Xehanort which used the armour as a body to manifest these feelings. That is until Xehanort was able to suppress Terra's heart and stopped him from doing it any more.

That's just my opinion of it all :)
 

Memory Master

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I like to label Nobodies by their birth as opposed to their components; they're "what's left behind by the heart." Even in Namine is "nothing," she's still the creation of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body. Otherwise, we may as well say that Roxas is a complete Somebody instead of a Nobody.

I lean more toward labeling them by their components. Namine and the way she was born is just too unique for me to just say she is a special nobody. I think there is more to her than that.

As for Roxas, yes he was born the same way a nobody is, but Ven's heart remained with Sora's body which became Roxas thus Roxas wa born with Ven's heart. So even though Roxas was created the same way a nobody is, I wouldn't even call Roxas a nobody.


Vanitas has gone to show that you can have two consciences acting simultaneously, one in the real world and one inside your heart.

But Vanitas did not have any type of consciousness acting outside of the body his heart was using. On top of that it is likely that when the X-Blade began to crumble at the end of his fight with Aqua and he fell to the ground unconcious, this allowed Ven to fight back inside of his heart and during those few seconds the whole battle with Vanitas inside of Ven's heart took place (It was a battle of hearts so even though in gameplay it plays out like a regular fight, in reality in may have just been a few seconds) and then we see Vanitas' dark suit dissapear from Ven's body which I think signals that is when Ven destroyed Vanitas inside of his heart.





I'm referring more towards when he was still sharing his body with XH (inside HB, with him, Kairi, and Donald and Goofy).

Now I like this idea. That actually does make alot of sense. If Riku's will when his heart was inside of his XH mutated body was able to produce a ghostly image of Riku and hold XH back, then it very well may be that Terra's will was able to control the armor to try and stop Terranort.

Only thing is, how does that explain Lingering Sentiment still being able to fight and stuff in KH2 Final Mix. Once Terranort was transported to Radiant Gardens then shouldn't the armor have just returned to being regular old armor again?



I like to think that the Unversed were a result of Vanitas' unnatural birth instead of him being a heart of pure darkness. If you think about it, Vanitas' heart acts as both an incomplete heart and a full-fledged heart. It's like it's real and unreal, if you ask me.

I just don't like the whole unversed concept at all really. I just don't see how emotions could become monsters, they just don't seem strong enough to do that. I think they could have expanded the unversed concept a little bit. Plus I don't like the idea of one person being able to create a whole race of monsters.



With Xehanort, he only expelled one heart/entity, that being XH. That's why he only has one Nobody.

That's true, as far as we know Eraqus' heart was inside of Terra's and Terra's heart was merged with MX, thus it was all one fused heart with MX's heart being in control of it.



I don't know how Terra's mind could control Lingering Will if Xehanort ends up being worlds away, such as when he fought Sora.

I would suggest perhaps the battle in KH2 wasn't canon, but the fact that lingering will is talking even after Terranort has been transported to Radiant Gardens shows it still must be around.

That's why I used the term "echo." If he managed to control his armor with his mind during BBS, the FM+ fight with Sora may have been due to his will being residual. What I mean is, there may have been something left behind that recognized Ven's heart on its own and reacted the way Terra would have without actually being connected to Terra.

Kind of how residual energy works in the ghost investigation community. Ghosts are considered to be the sentient spirit/soul of a person that remains in the world of the living for one reason or another. Residual spirit energy however is like a spiritual imprint of emotion or some important memory (such as the person's death itself) that remains as a type of spiritual finger print. Some (Usually phsycics or spiritual mediums) have described seeing memories of the deceased person when they are around this residual energy, and many more people describe experiencing what ever emotion was left with the residual energy (Such as sudden anger or sadness). But residual spiritual energy isn't sentient, it's just a spiritual fingerprint. Where as a ghosts is the actual sentient spirit/soul of a person.

Considering however that the heart and soul serve different functions in the KH series than they do in most other things, I'm not sure if or how this would work in the KH universe.
[/QUOTE]

The whole battle at the end of BBS was Terra's will being manifest in his armor. I just figured that some of that will remained dormant for the decade or so between BBS and FM+ and was reawakened by Ven's heart in Sora.

Does anyone know if Nomura ever said that battle was actually canon? I know before BBS Nomura talked about it and we all assumed both LS and the battle were not considered canon but the dialogue he used was canon. Then BBS came out and LS turns out to be canon, but was it ever said the battle between LS and Sora in final mix is canon?
 

Chuman

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Namine seems to be the result of three hearts having a Nobody, but that's all I know. She's the Nobody of Kairi, yet she's from Sora and resembles Ventus slightly, but this, I don't know for fact.

The Lingering Will is Terra's unresolved thoughts and emotions strong enough to have the will to carry on. Considering he was so close to Kingdom Hearts, which super-charged Xemnas and Xehanort's Heartless (and by extent, Sora and Riku), that could have helped animate him.
 

Gray Aria

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When Xehanort said "...why does your mind resist?" I don't think he meant literally that Terra's mind was controlling the armor. It's more like a copy of Terra's last thoughts and feelings were imprinted in the armor. Back when I first saw the scene, I first thought that Terra put on his armor thinking it would protect him from Xehanort's heart and keep it out but he was wrong and the heart got it anyway. But then later on as I gave it more thought I started thinking that maybe he knew there was no stopping the heart from getting in so he quickly put on the armor on purpose to imprint his final thoughts and feelings in it so that it could try to stop Xehanort from doing any further damage to Ven and Aqua and the world in general. It was probably a magic spell that Terra used that kept the LS alive for all those years. It's not completely unbelievable that Terra would know such a spell since Aqua knew the spell that would send Kairi to Destiny Islands.
 

Nayru's Love

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I lean more toward labeling them by their components. Namine and the way she was born is just too unique for me to just say she is a special nobody. I think there is more to her than that.

As for Roxas, yes he was born the same way a nobody is, but Ven's heart remained with Sora's body which became Roxas thus Roxas wa born with Ven's heart. So even though Roxas was created the same way a nobody is, I wouldn't even call Roxas a nobody.

Matter of perspective, I suppose.

But Vanitas did not have any type of consciousness acting outside of the body his heart was using. On top of that it is likely that when the X-Blade began to crumble at the end of his fight with Aqua and he fell to the ground unconcious, this allowed Ven to fight back inside of his heart and during those few seconds the whole battle with Vanitas inside of Ven's heart took place (It was a battle of hearts so even though in gameplay it plays out like a regular fight, in reality in may have just been a few seconds) and then we see Vanitas' dark suit dissapear from Ven's body which I think signals that is when Ven destroyed Vanitas inside of his heart.

The way Vanitas sounded, it seems the two didn't fuse properly as a result of Ventus' resistance, not Aqua breaking the X-Blade in the real world. It's not far-fetched to think the two battles happened simultaneously.

Now I like this idea. That actually does make alot of sense. If Riku's will when his heart was inside of his XH mutated body was able to produce a ghostly image of Riku and hold XH back, then it very well may be that Terra's will was able to control the armor to try and stop Terranort.

Only thing is, how does that explain Lingering Sentiment still being able to fight and stuff in KH2 Final Mix. Once Terranort was transported to Radiant Gardens then shouldn't the armor have just returned to being regular old armor again?

Actually, Riku's resistance wouldn't be compared to Lingering Will, but when Terra's heart was resisting MX during his fight with Aqua.

I just don't like the whole unversed concept at all really. I just don't see how emotions could become monsters, they just don't seem strong enough to do that. I think they could have expanded the unversed concept a little bit. Plus I don't like the idea of one person being able to create a whole race of monsters.
Since they act according to Vanitas' will, I think understanding them makes understanding LW much easier. They're like manifestations of one's will, kinda.

I'm beginning to think LW is kinda similar in nature to Nobodies. When a person becomes a Heartless, their will helps them survive as a Nobody. The process is easily comparable to Terra's situation.

Does anyone know if Nomura ever said that battle was actually canon? I know before BBS Nomura talked about it and we all assumed both LS and the battle were not considered canon but the dialogue he used was canon. Then BBS came out and LS turns out to be canon, but was it ever said the battle between LS and Sora in final mix is canon?

Not as far as I'm concerned. The most we got from Nomura himself was that the battle was "unimportant."
 

The Conquerer

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Namine is explained in a half-assed way. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but it is what it is. Even heartless and nobodies are deceiving titles for what they are and/or can be..
 

ajmrowland

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^What's so half-assed about it? It makes perfect sense to me. Kairi's heart was in sora's body, close to his heart, so when he lost both, two nobodies were created-one with the ability to manipulate memories involving him. It could be just another of the supposed powers the princesses of heart have, or Roxas could have some untapped power to do the same with Kairi.
 
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