If 358/2 Days got the Re:Com treatment it could be a masterpiece

[Scoobert_Doobert]

Okay... Hear me out.

From what I can gather, the biggest problem people have with KH Days is the gameplay. For the most part it's the hottest of garbage (at least compared to other KH titles). Story wise though, I think most fans would agree that it's interesting, compelling, and the first real tragedy of the KH series (Probably the best told tragic story as well).

All of the game's critiques have been said a million times before; it's missions are repetitive, many of the boss fights are unbearably painstaking and tedious, and the pacing/progression is God awful in certain moments.

I agree with pretty much all the criticisms, but I realized recently that almost all of those same criticisms could be applied to Re:Com, BBS, and to DDD. While I have my own separate issues with these games, for the most part, I enjoyed the hell out of all 3 of them. The combat is fun and addictive the way every KH game should be, you can play as multiple characters with different fighting styles, and they each have an intricate command building system. Addictive combat aside, Days has all of these same elements, but with arguably more depth and complexity than the other 3.

The only glaring difference I could see between Days and these other 3 games, was that they looked and/or felt like console games, and Days looked and/or felt like a 64bit mess that dropped outta Square's ass and landed right onto Gamestop's bargain rack.

HOW TO MAKE KH 358/2 DAYS GOD TIER:

- Give Days KH2 lvl graphics,

- Give the player DDD lvl smoothness in terms of the handling and control of the characters (which would make the reaction-combo based combat way more fun.)

- Keep the depth of game play with replayable missions, almost 20 playable characters, and the insane amount of weapon
variations for each character, and transfer over and improve upon all the online capabilities from the DS to Playstation.

- Finally, keep the story EXACTLY the way it is.

Boom.... Great game.

 

[VoidGear.]

Yeah no.
The story is so bad I never wanna see sth like that again

 

[Muke]

Okay... Hear me out.

From what I can gather, the biggest problem people have with KH Days is the gameplay.

And the story

Story wise though, I think most fans would agree that it's interesting, compelling, and the first real tragedy of the KH series

Nahhh

(Probably the best told tragic story as well).

Surely not?

The combat is fun and addictive the way every KH game should be

D-did we play the same games?

HOW TO MAKE KH 358/2 DAYS GOD TIER:

- Give Days KH2 lvl graphics,

- Give the player DDD lvl smoothness in terms of the handling and control of the characters (which would make the reaction-combo based combat way more fun.)

- Keep the depth of game play with replayable missions, almost 20 playable characters, and the insane amount of weapon
variations for each character, and transfer over and improve upon all the online capabilities from the DS to Playstation.

- Finally, keep the story EXA CTLY the way it is.

Boom.... Great game.

I think it's more like

- KH2 graphics
- KH2 gameplay
- completely rewrite the story
- remove Xion
- remove at least 50 repetitive ice cream scenes

There, that's how you make it at least a mediocre game with good KH2 gameplay

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Re:CoM is on many gameplay levels the worst version of the duo, tbh.

But yeah, there's but one thing to do to save Days: scrap it and start over. Focus on the Organization, make me CARE about these villains more, don't go ahead and build ANOTHER trio from scratch with a sad story. You can... I don't know. You can make Xion, but should've taken a completely different approach.
Here's A idea: make her different from Roxas. Like, someone who actually enjoyed her job of gathering hearts while Roxas had all the issues and doubts, and then have them fight over different beliefs.
I don't claim this was the correct path to take and feel free to disagree, but at least it's different. In Days you switch from Roxas being sad and depressed to Xion being sad and depressed, that definitely plays a big part in how many perceived the game to be boring.

Oh, and make the final battle against Riku actually good, dammit. I still can't get over how they got that battle wrong. The battle that was KH1's secret ending, and a huge plot point of KH II.

 

[UmbraTsuki]

A lot of people dislike the story, and I disagree with all of them since Days has my favorite storyline LOL.

KHII level graphics and smoother controls would definitely be a plus.
I'm not sure if by playable characters you mean for the mission mode thing?

I hated the gameplay in Days, but admittedly, I thought the command/item board thing was really fun. The battles were kind of fun, but definitely blocky gameplay. It was hard to move the camera, target the right enemies, etc. And of course, those graphics...

I think the NDS was just not a good platform for the game to be on, honestly. I haven't played many games on it, but just with what I have, I don't think there are high enough capabilities.

Also I'm going to disagree about it being the first real tragedy as well. I think of it more as the background for a tragedy. But I don't really know how to clarify that right now.

 

[Muke]

^ I mean, the NDS perfectly handled Re:Coded, which was a great game, though?

 

[UmbraTsuki]

^ I mean, the NDS perfectly handled Re:Coded, which was a great game, though?

To me, the gameplay in Re:Coded was about the same in terms of not being smooth, BUT they did do a much better job with mini-cutscenes by making it images with dialogue instead of the renders standing there looking blocky. But I think Re:Coded would have been much better on a different system as well.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Would've probably been better elsewhere, but its gameplay is leagues above Days.
I can actually aim and battle an enemy without making a pact with Satan.

 

[VoidGear.]

Would've probably been better elsewhere, but its gameplay is leagues above Days.
I can actually aim and battle an enemy without making a pact with Satan.

Not even Satan can help you against the ruler of the skies.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Not even Satan can help you against the ruler of the skies.

Duh, you can't ask the devil to kill himself.

 

[Scoobert_Doobert]

It's always strange for me to see KH fans who hate 358's story. What's so bad about it?

 

[VoidGear.]

It's always strange for me to see KH fans who hate 358's story. What's so bad about it?

Uh, what isn't?

The whole eating-ice-scream scenario gets old after three times it happens. Xion is unbelieably annoying and screentime-consuming. Roxas acts like a complete major idiot. Axel doesn't hold up much better. Rest of the orga is extremely boring, if around at all. Half of the game's story feels like an unneeded filler (there could've been a million better explanations as to why Roxas left the Organization).
That's a few of the reasons.

 

[Scoobert_Doobert]

Uh, what isn't?

The whole eating-ice-scream scenario gets old after three times it happens. Xion is unbelieably annoying and screentime-consuming. Roxas acts like a complete major idiot. Axel doesn't hold up much better. Rest of the orga is extremely boring, if around at all. Half of the game's story feels like an unneeded filler (there could've been a million better explanations as to why Roxas left the Organization).
That's a few of the reasons.

I can kinda see what you're saying. The game is definitely too long for how bad the game play is, and a lot of the scenes are similar and some might not be necessary. But I gotta disagree about Xion being annoying. She's nothing too special, but there's nothing I found unbearable about her. And how she's a "perfected" version of the Riku Replica gave Re:com even more relevance and intrigue. She serves a purpose.

what hooked me on the story wasn't necessarily the characters themselves, but the situation they were put in. It's a story about three lost, broken, and scared friends trying to understand the crazy world they've been thrown into, and figuring out what it means individually to do the right the thing. It's a really relatable story, that I think a game like BBS tried to duplicate, but didn't hit the same chord that Days was able to hit.

It's definitely glorified filler, but I thought it was pretty interesting filler lol. It's kinda like the Rogue One of KH. I respect your opinion though.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

- The repetitivity.
"What's your favourite moment of Days? ̶a̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶w̶o̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶A̶x̶e̶l̶'̶s̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶X̶i̶o̶n̶'̶s̶ ̶d̶e̶a̶t̶h̶"
"When Roxas didn't understand what was going on and then collapsed."
"You have to be more specific."
"It was after Xion ran away."
"Again, more specific."
"Later on, Saix was mean to him and he sat in his room."
"You just don't get it do you?"

- The complete overshadowing of many interesting characters in order to focus on the staple "trio of friends". And not really well made either, for reasons I will later elaborate upon.

- On the same note, how it totally waste more than half the cast by making CoM happen a few days later the beginning. Sure, it's not like I was interested in characters like Larxene or Vexen or the others anyway. By all means, give me more about notSora and notKairi eating ice cream, that will never overstay its welcome.

- On the same note yet again, too many days. Or better, too many useless ones. Ok that every KH has a story that peaks up in the finale, but Days crosses the line by making only the ending relevant. Sure, you can write fanfics about this or that sad moment and have fun discussing what Lea and Isa's plans are (or both of the above), but Days and good pacing are on different planets.
If you don't have enough to make 358 days interesting, don't make it 358 days long. (I know you don't play all of them, point still stands)

- How Xion and Roxas are written as the same character, basically (as I said above, 90% of Days' story is a dice roll about who to show sad and depressed now, if Roxas or Xion). That results in having twice the screentime about the same character trope, and the worst part is that it doesn't evolve. The story progresses and makes Xion and Roxas pick a side, but they end by being the same sad snowflakes they were all the while.

- Axel's sudden attachment to Roxas is poorly done: KH II introduced me two best friends with mutual trust that went through hell, Days stated that they ate a bunch of ice creams and that was it. Maybe it's because I'm not into the ship, but at the beginning I just see Axel taking pity on a stray puppy by giving him food.

- The fact that you finally get to play with the mighty and powerful Organization, evil villains who command Heartless and Nobodies and give no damn, and you still have to hide and be secretive for no better specified reasons, since there was literally no one they feared (Mickey sucks at tracking them, let's be honest. And if they were indeed hiding from him, then why in KH II suddenly is peachy to be out in the open. Once again, Days builds on top of the opposite KH II told.)

- That Xion fights Roxas and tells him about setting Kingdom Hearts free but then realizes she f***ed up and tells Riku to stop him (aka, "we forgot it has to end with Riku and Roxas fighting, oh and let's make that fight boring while we're at it")

- I'm taking a free space because there's probably something else but I'm really sleepy.

You can argue about one, two, three points not being that bad, or that you still like them and tastes are subjective: by all means, yes.
But, Days is just not... good. In the objective sense of the word.
It's not properly written, it's a mess in various places, it tries really too hard to be all sad and depressive and it's definitely the KH title with the most wasted potential.
You can still like it and have fun with it, but there's plenty of reasons for not liking it. It's really not a good game.

 

[VoidGear.]

what hooked me on the story wasn't necessarily the characters themselves, but the situation they were put in. It's a story about three lost, broken, and scared friends trying to understand the crazy world they've been thrown into, and figuring out what it means individually to do the right the thing. It's a really relatable story, that I think a game like BBS tried to duplicate, but didn't hit the same chord that Days was able to hit.

This is why I dislike Xion.
They added her to the queue just to have this trio-situation again, even though they could've finally gone for something else (or, damn, added NAMINÉ here).
Days tried too damn hard to force this drama down my throat. It is true BBS didn't hit the same chord, simply because BBS didn't try at all.

It's definitely glorified filler, but I thought it was pretty interesting filler lol. It's kinda like the Rogue One of KH. I respect your opinion though.

It's not like it's not interesting.
Just the way they put it bothers me so much because it could've been so much more.

 

[UmbraTsuki]

Would've probably been better elsewhere, but its gameplay is leagues above Days.
I can actually aim and battle an enemy without making a pact with Satan.

I didn't find the aiming any better in Re:Coded. The only gameplay aspect I did find better was that the variation was interesting.

It's always strange for me to see KH fans who hate 358's story. What's so bad about it?

Mostly plotholes they had to cover up, I feel like. After that, it's opinion. I don't really have the energy to reply to most points being brought up (I decided to try a couple anyway), but I'll just say that I loved the story like you did. Not everyone can love every game's story though.

And how she's a "perfected" version of the Riku Replica gave Re:com even more relevance and intrigue. She serves a purpose.

This, I agree with. Though I thought it was the other way around and Xion was the first version (which is why she was named No. i)? And she was so flawed they learned to make adjustments. Then Repliku was the perfected one. I might be remembering wrong though.

what hooked me on the story wasn't necessarily the characters themselves, but the situation they were put in. It's a story about three lost, broken, and scared friends trying to understand the crazy world they've been thrown into, and figuring out what it means individually to do the right the thing. It's a really relatable story, that I think a game like BBS tried to duplicate, but didn't hit the same chord that Days was able to hit.

Seconded on the relatable aspect. I can see how BBS could be seen as trying to duplicate that, too.

- The repetitivity.
"What's your favourite moment of Days? ̶a̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶w̶o̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶A̶x̶e̶l̶'̶s̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶X̶i̶o̶n̶'̶s̶ ̶d̶e̶a̶t̶h̶"

What are the only two ever quoted, just out of curiosity? (Or is that Axel's shout and Xion's death?)

Ok that every KH has a story that peaks up in the finale, but Days crosses the line by making only the ending relevant.

I felt like only the ending was relevant for Coded as well. (I only played Re:Coded, but I'm guessing story-wise that doesn't make a difference.) Perhaps the beginning and the end, but the same could be said for Days in that case (the beginning being where he gets his name, how he meets Axel, etc.). I don't remember anything relevant mid-game in Coded.

- Axel's sudden attachment to Roxas is poorly done: KH II introduced me two best friends with mutual trust that went through hell, Days stated that they ate a bunch of ice creams and that was it. Maybe it's because I'm not into the ship, but at the beginning I just see Axel taking pity on a stray puppy by giving him food.

Part of the hell they went through was the beginning of KHII, but I think there was plenty in Days, Xion aside. Axel knowing plenty and having to keep secrets from Roxas was a big thing; Roxas was pissed because he felt his trust was broken, while Axel thought he was doing what would be best for Roxas. The ice cream thing is their routine. Which many groups of friends have. It's mundane, it's boring, but it makes sense. The other trios and characters have their own routines, but we only live/play/watch through the ice cream one.

Maybe it's because I like focusing on detail so much and tend to focus on detail more than bigger pictures, but the changes in routine with certain points/days in the game are subtle but significant. Because breaks from routine are significant, even if it's by a little bit -- for some people, at least. In that sense, they did some "show-don't-tell" things with it.

 

[Scoobert_Doobert]

-- How Xion and Roxas are written as the same character, basically (as I said above, 90% of Days' story is a dice roll about who to show sad and depressed now, if Roxas or Xion). That results in having twice the screentime about the same character trope, and the worst part is that it doesn't evolve. The story progresses and makes Xion and Roxas pick a side, but they end by being the same sad snowflakes they were all the while.

Doesn't evolve? The whole game is about them trying to become their own people. The major difference between them is that Roxas never stops trying to be his own person, while Xion accepts her role as just another part of Sora. They go from strangers, to friends, to enemies... I'd call that evolution.

- Axel's sudden attachment to Roxas is poorly done: KH II introduced me two best friends with mutual trust that went through hell, Days stated that they ate a bunch of ice creams and that was it. Maybe it's because I'm not into the ship, but at the beginning I just see Axel taking pity on a stray puppy by giving him food.

I think that's kind of point. Even Axel didn't expect to become friends with Roxas, but the whole Saix turning into a walking douche monster pushed Axel towards Roxas and Xion who were some of the only good people in the Org. I thought the whole Axel + Saix relationship was written really well, and was one of my favorite parts of the Days story.

- The fact that you finally get to play with the mighty and powerful Organization, evil villains who command Heartless and Nobodies and give no damn, and you still have to hide and be secretive for no better specified reasons, since there was literally no one they feared (Mickey sucks at tracking them, let's be honest. And if they were indeed hiding from him, then why in KH II suddenly is peachy to be out in the open. Once again, Days builds on top of the opposite KH II told.)

Org 13 has always been portrayed as people who manipulate things from the shadows. From COM - KH2 they only really fight when they have to (Like Lexeaus fighting Riku to unleash his darkness, Demyx fighting Sora only because he was ordered to, or Vexen fighting Sora to get Data from his memories).

- That Xion fights Roxas and tells him about setting Kingdom Hearts free but then realizes she f***ed up and tells Riku to stop him (aka, "we forgot it has to end with Riku and Roxas fighting, oh and let's make that fight boring while we're at it")

This goes back to my point about revamping the graphics and the game mechanics for console would make a lot of the battles much more epic and fun to play. That fight was really disappointing, but I think it could be awesome on console.

- I'm taking a free space because there's probably something else but I'm really sleepy.

Same here buddy lol

You can argue about one, two, three points not being that bad, or that you still like them and tastes are subjective: by all means, yes.
But, Days is just not... good. In the objective sense of the word.
It's not properly written, it's a mess in various places, it tries really too hard to be all sad and depressive and it's definitely the KH title with the most wasted potential.
You can still like it and have fun with it, but there's plenty of reasons for not liking it. It's really not a good game.

You kind of contradict yourself here. Days DEFINITELY has flaws, and it's easily one of my least favorite KH games from a gameplay stand point. But the mere fact that I think the story was great and you think the story is awful, proves that the game's quality isn't objective. It's all about how heavily the pros and the cons are weighed by the individual. I see where you're coming from though.

 

[Muke]

I felt like only the ending was relevant for Coded as well. (I only played Re:Coded, but I'm guessing story-wise that doesn't make a difference.) Perhaps the beginning and the end, but the same could be said for Days in that case (the beginning being where he gets his name, how he meets Axel, etc.). I don't remember anything relevant mid-game in Coded.

- We learn about those who are hurting
- First time we hear about the Book of Prophecies
- Following that up, we learn that Maleficent knows about it, which is a huge plot point for KH3
- We learn what's written in Mickey's letter
- We learn that anything and everything can have a heart
- We learn that Mickey and Yen Sid have actually tried to locate Ventus' heart, and are close
- We learn that Master Xehanort has been revived
- We learn that a Somebody can be revived if that person's Nobody and Heartless have been destroyed
- We learn that Xehanort's Keyblade is the most ancient

Even if most of it is in the ending, what do we learn in Days?

- We learn about a 14th Org member and that she's a replica of Sora, kinda
- We learn about how Axel and Roxas became friends (like that matters)
- We learn about why Roxas actually left the Org
- We get some clues that Axel and Saïx had some friendship in the past, plus their actual names
- We, uh, huh… what else did we learn that was plot significant to the other games?

 

[UmbraTsuki]

Instead of us, it's more that Sora (or Data!Sora?) learns about those who are hurting. We (people playing the game) know about them from previous games.

Also a lot of those things were still in the beginning and the end, that I can remember. I personally feel like some of your points about Coded could be combined, and some of the points about Days could be expanded.

Along with learning that Axel and Saïx were friends, they bring up how the two had a plan of some sort before entering the Organization. One that Saïx is pretty upset about Axel "abandoning." Which leaves Saïx not caring to go against Xemnas's plan.

About Xion being a replica, that gives an example on how Vexen's "replica program" was so flawed.

We also see Ven-- so while this information was later revealed again in BBS anyway, we learn there's a Roxas lookalike who Xigbar knew in his past life. Likewise, with the Nobody-and-Heartless-destroyed-revival stuff, that's reiterated in DDD right after Coded.

 

[Muke]

Instead of us, it's more that Sora (or Data!Sora?) learns about those who are hurting. We (people playing the game) know about them from previous games.

Umm, yeah, we knew about them existing. But we didn't know they were "hurting" and needed Sora to save them.

Also a lot of those things were still in the beginning and the end, that I can remember

Which I also adressed:

Even if most of it is in the ending

About Xion being a replica, that gives an example on how Vexen's "replica program" was so flawed.

Which we didn't need to know for the overall plot of the franchise

Likewise, with the Nobody-and-Heartless-destroyed-revival stuff, that's reiterated in DDD right after Coded.

So? That doesn't change the fact that it was first revealed in Coded.

Again, Days didn't add much to the overall plot, it just didn't. If Days hadn't existed at all (also meaning, yes, Xion not existing at all) and we got straight to BBS, we wouldn't really lose anything plot relevant