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The_Echo

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Spoke too soon, gameguy523.


I think you probably know it was in both 1 and 2 and even BbS had Mirage Arena (the closest to a main game of all those spin-offs in KH's 10-year ramble through the weeds before 3). If you don't agree, you don't agree, but you won't be changing my opinion. The purpose of criticism is to keep the series from repeating mistakes. It took all the criticism of KH2's narrow hallway approach to level design for us to get expansive worlds like those in 3D, 0.2, and KH3--and that's partly why I love those games. Your approach would mean we couldn't have criticized KH2 for lack of platforming because that means disliking it for "what it isn't"--nevermind that KH1 had been all about platforming. I personally hope all the criticism of 3 will at least get us Radiant Garden back in future games, if nothing else. That's why I don't care who it bothers, criticism is needed.
I just don't think that it's a "mistake" to not include a specific feature, much less a specific world.

And regarding platforming, just because KH1 had it doesn't mean KHII needed it, especially when it wasn't very good.
You can still criticize KHII's level design without saying "it needs KH1 platforming."
DDD and KHIII don't really have platforming either, but they still solved the issue of KHII's corridor level design.
 

Deliverance

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I think gameplay discussion still has a ways to go.

It’s ridiculous how people can write literal essays about how the story isn’t the most well written literary work ever made, but you can’t go deep into combat without being strawmaned into oblivion.
 

Katsagu

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Your approach would mean we couldn't have criticized KH2 for lack of platforming because that means disliking it for "what it isn't"--nevermind that KH1 had been all about platforming. I personally hope all the criticism of 3 will at least get us Radiant Garden back in future games, if nothing else. That's why I don't care who it bothers, criticism is needed.

That's not true at all, KH2's platforming was criticized exactly because the platforming that was in the game was underwhelming and under utilized. If the game presents platforming opportunities and abilities, it's fair to criticize if the game doesn't give you opportunities to use those abilities.

This is totally different to criticizing KH3 because "it has no coliseum" for example, this criticism is obviously done because it's something you expected based on the previous games, but simply having a coliseum wouldn't make the game better. Instead you should be criticizing the alternative presented in KH3, the battle gates. If the battle gates were done via a NPC in the hercules world and rebranded to "something cup" would you be happy? I'm thinking no, since they were supposed to be challenging mob fights to test your skills, and they didn't meet that objective for me, be it because they were to easy or I wished there were more.

On OP, my problem with KH3's discussion, ever since it's release, is the hyperbole, this thing you talk about one side being baffling in how it defends the game can go the other way on how harshly/unfairly people criticize the game.

f0ae93e3034ea8e3c4cb8b946c6a990a.png


The thing is, on twitter, either you are on the side of KH3 being shitty shit, or you're on the side of loving it and it being the second coming of christ. In the middle is a perfectly good game with issues that matter more or less to you.
 

Elysium

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That's not true at all, KH2's platforming was criticized exactly because the platforming that was in the game was underwhelming and under utilized. If the game presents platforming opportunities and abilities, it's fair to criticize if the game doesn't give you opportunities to use those abilities.
....I don't see what you're disagreeing with me about.

This is totally different to criticizing KH3 because "it has no coliseum"
Funny, because I think if you scrolled back only a few posts ago, you'll see that was not the only thing I listed in my post. But I guess when you can't argue on the merits, you have to resort to lying and mischaracterization, right?

On OP, my problem with KH3's discussion, ever since it's release, is the hyperbole, this thing you talk about one side being baffling in how it defends the game can go the other way on how harshly/unfairly people criticize the game.
It's funny, I think your post is a good example of the lack of understanding of nuance because you attempted to boil things down to "person making criticism is saying KH3 sucks" when in reality "person making criticism thinks KH3 is flawed but mostly good."
 

2 quid is good

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That's not true at all, KH2's platforming was criticized exactly because the platforming that was in the game was underwhelming and under utilized. If the game presents platforming opportunities and abilities, it's fair to criticize if the game doesn't give you opportunities to use those abilities
There was no platforming in KH2 vanilla, it was literally all flat hallways with zero verticality at all, because we didn't have any puzzle piece that at the least let you have an excuse for using your abilities, not to mention the cavern of remembrance. The direct point of reference was "KH2 has no platforming, unlike KH1"

How was it resolved? By making the cavern of rememberance that literally takes KH1s level design philosophy and applies it to KH2. It was criticised for what it didn't have, which is what you've said

EDIT: ninja'd again... By the same person twice in one day

EDIT EDIT: In the case of FF characters, I think it's the height of revisionism to claim that its fans' fault if they expected them to be in the game, when Nomura was asked about their status in direct relation to KH3 multiple times, most recently being at E3 2018, the largest event before KH3's release where an interview will have everyone hanging on your words, and not only did he not deny their appearance outright, but instead told us to look forward to how they would be implemented.

It's not the fucking fans fault if they expected to see Final Fantasy characters in KH3
 
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Katsagu

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....I don't see what you're disagreeing with me about.


Funny, because I think if you scrolled back only a few posts ago, you'll see that was not the only thing I listed in my post. But I guess when you can't argue on the merits, you have to resort to lying and mischaracterization, right?


It's funny, I think your post is a good example of the lack of understanding of nuance because you attempted to boil things down to "person making criticism is saying KH3 sucks" when in reality "person making criticism thinks KH3 is flawed but mostly good."
Mate, 1st of all chill out a bit, no one's attacking you, if you're not confortable with people questioning your opinions don't put them out there. You did the same thing when The_echo responded to you.

I didn't mischaracterize your post at all, I picked one of the "criticisms" you had that irked me, and pointed how that's not really a criticism, especially when KH3 has a substitute for what the coliseum/tournaments were. If you were to criticize the battle gates hoping they would function more like coliseum that would be a fine statement to make, since it's palpable and based on what KH3 has to offer instead of what it does not. I'll say it again "No coliseum" isn't really a criticism.

But if you insist I'll go over every criticism you did and chime in, because of course my opinion is of the utmost value:
- No coliseum/tournaments, already said what I think about it.
- No radiant garden. Don't see how this is an issue. It's the same as the people that criticized the entrance to the mysterious tower not being playable. If I can see it isn't important to have it there, I don't see what the issue is. Scala on the other hand I understand why not being able to actually explore it was dissapointing, it's the final secret world of the game, give it room to breathe and for the players to take it in.
- No FF, I agree, FF is part of the DNA of KH, getting rid of it almost completely is not the way to go.
- No disney bosses, I agree. It could better help implement Disney into the overall game and plot.
- Better disney implementation, I agree. Having a disneyland trip before the important stuff is not the best way to write a plot.

There, happy? And now I'd like for you to point out where in my post I said that you making criticisms means you're saying KH3 sucks please.


There was no platforming in KH2 vanilla, it was literally all flat hallways with zero verticality at all, because we didn't have any puzzle piece that at the least let you have an excuse for using your abilities, not to mention the cavern of remembrance. The direct point of reference was "KH2 has no platforming, unlike KH1"

How was it resolved? By making the cavern of rememberance that literally takes KH1s level design philosophy and applies it to KH2. It was criticised for what it didn't have, which is what you've said

EDIT: ninja'd again... By the same person twice in one day

That's not true, base KH2 had very basic platforming, needing to do 1 or 2 jumps to reach a treasure chest is a way of platforming no? A problem was KH2 then gave you all these cool movement abilities, but you had no reason to utilize them, thus the criticism being related to the game.

3c719c71aaf351d3cd8d47c784c86372.png


In here, if Sora doesnt have high jump equiped he would need to do 2 jumps, if he has then he only needs one. And like this there are plenty of other examples in base KH2 that pretty much prove at least basic platforming was though of in the design process. It's totally acceptable to think the platforming that was there was underwhelming. The best and closest point of comparison then being of course, the platforming from the previous game.

Also let me make this clear, I'm not defending that you can't criticize a game based on it's predecessors, thats a logical thing to do, because that's the nature of a series, expecting a game in a series to play closely like the ones that came before is normal and have the same type of gameplay "feel". Expecting all future games to have every single thing you deem important that the ones before had is a bit ridiculous and kind of suppresses the devs creativity.
 

Absent

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Side track but has anyone noticed the two most common things when people argue about 3?

The annoying and prevalent floaty argument and the tired and disingenuous expectations argument.

Interesting enough they’re usually used by opposites.
 

Elysium

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Mate, 1st of all chill out a bit, no one's attacking you, if you're not confortable with people questioning your opinions don't put them out there. You did the same thing when The_echo responded to you.
Yeah, sure. If anything, I tried to tone down what I wanted to say. I don't plan to keep going point by point because it's pointless fighting in the mud, since like I said, it really doesn't matter if you think a criticism is fair or not. I can make any criticism and hold any opinion of the series that I want to whether you like it or not.
 

Katsagu

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I can make any criticism and hold any opinion of the series that I want to whether you like it or not.
Sure, not saying you can't. But let me just say, your unwillingness to even adress any point of my opposition to your opinions is beyond ironic taking into consideration this is a thread were OP congratulates the quality of discussion in this forum. But oh well, you're right, lets agree to disagree.

giphy.gif
 

KingdomKurdistan

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There are two different types of critique here. There's a textual criticism of what is and the more normative critique of expectations unfulfilled by absence. The intent of the latter is persuasion (in this case, the writers and devs), but the point of the former is more broad.

I don't find the latter invalid, per se. If someone wants Colosseum they're welcome to want Colosseum. And it is true that arguments to absence have seemingly caused the development team to backtrack. Most of these changes I've been happy with, personally. But when fan demands are this pervasive, they become superficial and reductive distractions sucking up oxygen from more substantive discussions that should take place.

I honestly don't think artists should give two craps about what we fans and consumers think they should and shouldn't do. This is a very hard principle to uphold with someone as - ehem - esoteric as Nomura, yet it still stands.

I still contend nothing comes good of trying to appease fans if the artist is even halfway competent. When fans are on the right side of the divide as much as they're deemed to be with Kingdom Hearts, then the solution isn't to compromise in favour of fan demands. The solution is something else entirely.

Being so fixated on absence isn't a healthy way of appreciating art unless we plan on becoming the author and rectifying these absences (thus switching places with the perpetrator and inviting backlash ourselves). Kingdom Hearts III is a hefty text begging for literary criticism and analysis. If there's anything for writers to learn from, it's the deconstruction of their work. You can't deconstruct what isn't there; it's quite literally immaterial.
 
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Elysium

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I don't find the latter invalid, per se. If someone wants Colosseum they're welcome to want Colosseum. And it is true that arguments to absence have seemingly caused the development team to backtrack. Most of these changes I've been happy with, personally. But when fan demands are this pervasive, they become superficial and reductive distractions sucking up oxygen from more substantive discussions that should take place.
I'm not sure how pervasive they are. I can really only account for myself. The tournaments side quests are a small thing. The fact that it's such a simple mini-game to implement makes the annoyance they aren't there even greater. It would've been easy to have them take place beyond the gates where Zeus is standing post-world. It's not a Hercules-specific thing--although Hercules being present should've made it even easier to include--since, as I said before, they are also present in BbS in the form of the Mirage Arena. While I personally do enjoy the battlegates, they're more like the side quests in 3D (I believe they were called portals) than anything else. One-off battles that you have to wander around multiple maps to aren't really the same experience; you also don't get to fight characters in any of the battlegates, only random Heartless. Tbh, leaving aside the fact that the game lacks tournaments, I think there should've been many more battlegates anyway.

As for Radiant Garden's absence, to me that's not superficial because it's tied up in the absence of the Final Fantasy characters. The game is lacking both a heart and a midpoint. Twilight Town doesn't function very well as a hub world in 3 to me (what's funny is it would probably work better as a hub world post-3 now Roxas and co. are all there). Then there's the fact that the story of the whole saga began with what happened at Radiant Garden. Not going there to visit SDG's core friends and see the castle finally restored or having some story follow-through on what it means for the Apprentices to be there again after what they did is a huge failure, imo, and it's hard to suspend disbelief that Ienzo is allowed back in the lab or that Sora wouldn't fly straight over there to check on things or that Squall wouldn't be in contact with them simultaneously. As an aside, it would've been the perfect world to have Kairi train on, too--the FF characters could've been training her along with Merlin--since it would allow her to finally be in her home world again. It would've been interesting for Aqua to reappear there when she was saved as well, since it's the place she fell into the RoD.

I honestly don't think artists should give two craps about what we fans and consumers think they should and shouldn't do. This is a very hard principle to uphold with someone as - ehem - esoteric as Nomura, yet it still stands.
To some degree I agree with you. But I guess for me it's a hard sell to say Nomura is blameless in how his telling of this story has lead to so much fan criticism. It's been a big trainwreck in a lot of ways. It took all the ReMIXes to clean that up prior to 3 and then 3 rolls around and it's as if he's completely over the completion of his own story. Since the original story and characters often aren't my main concern with the series, it's not at the top of my list of criticisms like it is with other people. Still, 3 often feels like it's lacking in any and all payoff, after years and years and years of nothing but buildup. (The return of Radiant Garden to its former glory is also one of those lesser examples of buildup leading nowhere, but I was more referring to the original story on that point.) Instead everything about the saga's resolution seemed to get bare minimum attention while he was busy setting up the metamorphosis of KH and its characters into the lost Final Fantasy XV. So I can't help but question the attempts to externalize all the blame for fan criticism onto the fans rather than acknowledging that, at least to some degree, this ship hasn't been run very well... I almost think Nomura has come to a place where he doesn't take KH very seriously anymore and thinks of it as little more than a money-maker for both Square and Disney to show off their IPs, which is the reason he doesn't hesitate to play fast and loose with its story.

And because his wishy-washiness has become so apparent, my reasons for following the series are slim and can seem superficial. If he wants to implode his story, feel free, as long as I get my fix of the basic things, in other words, lol. To me, the Radiant Garden crew and tournaments are "the basics," and the fact that he skimped on those is flabbergasting. (For reference, the other items under my "basics" list are well-designed Disney levels, lots of Sora and Riku, SDG, and the Command Menu. ;) )

I still contend nothing comes good of trying to appease fans if the artist is even halfway competent. When fans are on the right side of the divide as much as they're deemed to be with Kingdom Hearts, then the solution isn't to compromise in favour of fan demands. The solution is something else entirely.
Well, you're right. It can go awry depending on what you listen to. For example, the btiching about Atlantica in KH1 lead to it being a musical world in 2, likely its absence in BbS where it would've been perfect, and the dearth of a proper water world for almost a decade and a half 'til The Caribbean in 3. And more recently is all the stuff with Kairi from the fandom. The last thing we need is a bad character eating up more screentime, imo. I'm still skeptical that will happen since MoM was sold to some degree as a Kairi game and she still got the shaft. Who knows.
 
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2 quid is good

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No radiant garden. Don't see how this is an issue. It's the same as the people that criticized the entrance to the mysterious tower not being playable. If I can see it isn't important to have it there, I don't see what the issue is.
I don't see how you don't see its an issue but we're clearly not getting anywhere with this but agree to disagree I guess. I will say that it's completely disingenuous to try an compare a fully fledged world that has had so much plot relevance since 2002 to a tiny room where all you had was (not very good) exposition.
 

Face My Fears

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So I'm a big KH fan, but have definitely noticed the flaws as the series has continued. I mainly come from twitter and it's baffling how many people just utterly praise KH3 there and how they are completely unwilling to take any criticism. I was looking for a cool place to talk about the series in a balanced manner and I have to say, I am so pleasantly surprised by how fair most people seem to be about criticism. Very little blind praise and toxic positivity. It seems like people can genuinely have a discussion here that furthers the quality of the series. Excited to be here ^_^
Wow, that's odd. I normally see blind hatred and toxic negativity towards KH3 (mostly just to get clicks on videos or likes on comments or whatever). It's cool to hate KH3. So... yeah.

But glad you're here, I hope you enjoy!
 

AdrianXXII

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Wow, that's odd. I normally see blind hatred and toxic negativity towards KH3 (mostly just to get clicks on videos or likes on comments or whatever). It's cool to hate KH3. So... yeah.

But glad you're here, I hope you enjoy!
Honestly I've seen both. The game is very polorizing at the moment among, at least among more vocal fans. The game is a mixed bag so I get it.
On top of that there are people who see every complimant as calling the game flawless and others that see every critizisim as an attack.

I think as the years progress it'll probably mellow out.
 

Face My Fears

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Honestly I've seen both. The game is very polorizing at the moment among, at least among more vocal fans. The game is a mixed bag so I get it.
On top of that there are people who see every complimant as calling the game flawless and others that see every critizisim as an attack.

I think as the years progress it'll probably mellow out.
I've seen more hatred than positivity. I haven't even seen blind positivity where people claimed the game was perfection - not even I say that, and I am a big defender of KH3. I think the scale leaning more to negativity and hatred is due to the era that we're in right now. Videos and blogs that trash something will get way more views than something that is positive. That's why I said it's cool to hate on KH3. I saw videos with thousands of views about KH3 from people that never even played any of the other games before going on about how much they hate the game and it was such a huge disappointment. I get if you didn't like the game, but I personally just feel like hating KH3 will get clout-chasing idiots more views than a positive or even constructive review of the game.
 

Absent

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I've seen more hatred than positivity. I haven't even seen blind positivity where people claimed the game was perfection - not even I say that, and I am a big defender of KH3. I think the scale leaning more to negativity and hatred is due to the era that we're in right now. Videos and blogs that trash something will get way more views than something that is positive. That's why I said it's cool to hate on KH3. I saw videos with thousands of views about KH3 from people that never even played any of the other games before going on about how much they hate the game and it was such a huge disappointment. I get if you didn't like the game, but I personally just feel like hating KH3 will get clout-chasing idiots more views than a positive or even constructive review of the game.

Try watching different videos to change the algorithm. My twitter feed was full of KH3 discourse but I decided to mute everyone who was part of it. I blocked a shit ton of KH3 toxic haters and passive aggressive defenders.

Spoiler Spoiler Show


Use all the tools at your disposal. Dislike Videos, Click Not Interested, and click Don't Recommend Channel. Also modify your topics, they play a huge role with the new algorithm.

EDIT: I accidently clicked on a video from someone in the Fandom Menace, but I immediately Disliked it and removed it from my view history. Never got another recommendation from him.
 

2 quid is good

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Try watching different videos to change the algorithm. My twitter feed was full of KH3 discourse but I decided to mute everyone who was part of it. I blocked a shit ton of KH3 toxic haters and passive aggressive defenders.

Spoiler Spoiler Show


Use all the tools at your disposal. Dislike Videos, Click Not Interested, and click Don't Recommend Channel. Also modify your topics, they play a huge role with the new algorithm.

EDIT: I accidently clicked on a video from someone in the Fandom Menace, but I immediately Disliked it and removed it from my view history. Never got another recommendation from him.
That's exactly what I've done with my twitter but for some reason my friends still feel the need to show me stupid tweets 😔 I hardly engage with them nowadays tho and my timeline is a lot better for it. It just makes me kinda sad seeing people obviously caught up in these bubbles and argument cycles.


.... I guess that's KHInsider too but I think having an expectation of long form discussion here goes a long way to combating toxicity
 

Absent

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There's nothing more disappointing that when you find an account that seems chill and with great posts, only to see them engaging with the vicious cycle. I recently muted an account that I loved, they acted all haughty and morally sound but they loved instigating stuff indirectly.
 

2 quid is good

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There's nothing more disappointing that when you find an account that seems chill and with great posts, only to see them engaging with the vicious cycle. I recently muted an account that I loved, they acted all haughty and morally sound but they loved instigating stuff indirectly.
Yes! It would be hypocritical of me to say that I didn't partake in the cycle myself, I certainly did, but I'd try to avoid it as much as I could, and at least didn't instigate it, but what I could not stand was when people would paint themselves as somehow superior because of their opinions, and I found that a fair few content creators that I enjoyed often tweeted like that.
 
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