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Irrelevant - Cryogenesis



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Alaude Drenxta

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So, I had a completely random, irrelevant thought the other day.


When water is frozen, it expands.
The human body is 70% water.

So, supposing we even could ever learn how to unfreeze someone from a cryogenic sleep, wouldn't the frozen water in their body have turned to ice and expanded, ripping their body apart from the inside?
 

khphantom97

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...in theory, yes. Though, we know little about the human body. Plus, we don't have much of your body would expand, and where it would expand to. Your body may have an ability to adapt to this that we haven't seen before. But, you know, again, in theory.
 

LongLiveLife

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Your body may have an ability to adapt to this that we haven't seen before.

Lol no. Frostbite has long-lasting sequelae, including permanent sensation loss.

There are fish (and even squirrels) that resist freezing at subzero temperatures, and they are currently hot topics of research to help prolong the shelf-life of donated organs, but, no, if you're human, you freeze, you expand, your cells burst, and that's that.
 

Luap

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Lol no. Frostbite has long-lasting sequelae, including permanent sensation loss.

There are fish (and even squirrels) that resist freezing at subzero temperatures, and they are currently hot topics of research to help prolong the shelf-life of donated organs, but, no, if you're human, you freeze, you expand, your cells burst, and that's that.

If you were to Freeze instantaneously, which is the only way cryogenic sleep would work so the person doesn't die, frostbite wouldn't occur, as it happens over time. Although, freezer burn may cause damage to the body.
 

LongLiveLife

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doesn't if have to do with some type of antifreeze liquid that is produced by their body

Bingo. (Somewhat). All fish have a natural advantage because their cells are saltier than ours, but these antifreeze fish and squirrels have something extra. Can't remember what, but it's there.

frostbite wouldn't occur, as it happens over time.

Lol no. Frostbite happens when your tissues freeze and become damaged. Stick your hand into liquid nitrogen; I promise you you'll get instant frostbite.
 

Luap

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Lol no. Frostbite happens when your tissues freeze and become damaged. Stick your hand into liquid nitrogen; I promise you you'll get instant frostbite.


I know how frostbite occurs, but wouldn't the instant (0 Seconds, no time at all) freezing also keep those tissues from becoming damaged?
 

LongLiveLife

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Medscape said:
The damage evoked by frostbite stems from 3 distinct processes—extracellular and intracellular ice crystallization, intracellular dehydration, and arterial insufficiency with intermittent spasm.

Initial injury is mediated by extracellular-tissue ice crystal formation. Decreased temperature results in the formation of extracellular ice crystals. These crystals damage the cellular membranes, initiating the cascade of events that cause cellular death. As freezing continues, a shift in intracellular water to the extracellular space leads to dehydration, increased intracellular osmolarity, and eventually, intracellular ice crystal formation. As these ice crystals form and expand, the cell undergoes further damage, which is mechanical and irreversible.

Damage also is caused by a cycle of vascular changes referred to as the hunting reaction, which involves alternating cycles of vasoconstriction and vasodilation. Vasoconstriction with conservation of heat loss maximizes at approximately 15ºC.

As exposure to lower temperatures continues below 10ºC, the hunting reaction causes alternating vasoconstriction and vasodilation, which warms the exposed affected tissues and slows the rate at which extracellular and intracellular ice formation occurs. Frostbite of the peripheral tissues is delayed by the extraction of heat from the organism's core, which is functionally helpful in warm, insulated situations but is potentially deadly if this process accelerates the core heat loss. For readers interested in a more detailed description of the hunting reaction, please refer to Dana et al's 1969 treatise in Archives of Dermatology.16 The hunting reaction has been examined extensively, comparing Caucasians and Japanese17 ; comparing healthy individuals and those with Raynaud disease18 ; and comparing sex, season, and environmental temperature.19

When the hunting reaction stops at colder temperatures, uncycled vasoconstriction persists. This invariably leads to hypoxia, acidosis, arteriolar and venular thrombosis, and ischemic necrosis. During the cycling of freezing and thawing, prostaglandin F2 and thromboxane A2 are released, which potentiates further vasoconstriction, platelet aggregation, and thrombosis.

Various authors have compared the effects of quick freezing and slow freezing at the microscopic tissue level. Rapid freezing is thought to increase intracellular ice formation superficially, while slow freezing causes deeper and more extensive cellular injury by causing freezing of water in the intracellular and extracellular spaces. Because extracellular freezing progresses more rapidly than does intracellular ice formation, osmotic changes occur; these changes cause intracellular dehydration, which in turn decreases the viability and survival of individual cells.

Some authors and textbooks from the 1980s have likened the microscopic changes in frostbite to ischemia-reperfusion injury. Much of our understanding of the chemical cascade of frostbite injury comes from this decade, where many studies documented inflammatory mediators, such as prostaglandins, thromboxanes, bradykinin, and histamine, in frostbitten tissue. However, agents that block these mediators have had only marginal clinical success.

A study of the subject was undertaken in 1998 by Zook and associates.20 Zook et al studied a live gracilis muscle preparation transilluminated and projected on a view screen that allowed long-term evaluation of freezing tissue. The authors specifically found that reperfusion of muscle after freezing was varied but that almost all circulation was restored 10 minutes after rewarming. Of greatest interest, they observed that the microcirculation blood flow resumed at near normal levels after rewarming, suggesting that the vascular structures were not damaged by the freezing as had been previously postulated.

The most significant damage was created by white clots and fibrin formation with associated microvascular thrombosis, which initially occurred at 5 minutes after rewarming and continued for as long as 1 hour after rewarming. Zook noted that platelet abnormalities and fibrin formation resulted in the greatest early and late tissue damage and that classic reperfusion injury did not seem to be as important a factor as previously believed. This may explain the varied results noted in the literature with attempts at modification of the mediators of ischemia-reperfusion injury, which do not affect platelets or fibrin formation.

The true effect of chemical mediators remains controversial; however, ischemia-reperfusion injury may still occur because of microvascular thrombosis at a later time, compounding the mechanical effects of ice formation and the chemical effects of platelet abnormalities and fibrin microvascular clot formation.

Frostbite: eMedicine General Surgery

It's the cellular expansion and subsequent membrane rupture that initiates the 'damage cascade' and the freezing water that causes the expansion. The instant water freezes you end up with a region of ruptured cells, which inevitably necroses. I recommend you read the above link if you want more details.
 

Alaude Drenxta

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So that pulls me back, what the hell is the point of spending all this money and electricity on sustaining people in cryogenic freeze if they would only be dead even if we could thaw them effectively. It just sounds like an idea beyond the realm of simple stupidity.
 
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So that pulls me back, what the hell is the point of spending all this money and electricity on sustaining people in cryogenic freeze if they would only be dead even if we could thaw them effectively. It just sounds like an idea beyond the realm of simple stupidity.

The idea of death frightens many a people...
 
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Oberon

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Lol no. Frostbite has long-lasting sequelae, including permanent sensation loss.

There are fish (and even squirrels) that resist freezing at subzero temperatures, and they are currently hot topics of research to help prolong the shelf-life of donated organs, but, no, if you're human, you freeze, you expand, your cells burst, and that's that.
Walt Disney is going to be pissed.
 

Orion

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If you were to Freeze instantaneously,
I can cool a litre of water down over a billion years to -100º C, or I can cool the same amount to the same temperature over an instant. Either way, they sill expand the same amount, and there's still the massive cellular damage that entails.
 

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i guess they must have already thought that thru and must haved used something special for it wont occur i mean if you thought about it then they must have also thought about it
 

Orion

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i guess they must have already thought that thru and must haved used something special for it wont occur i mean if you thought about it then they must have also thought about it
And? You'd need to replace the water in people's bodies with something that doesn't expand when cooled in order to not kill them, and that is impossible. Maybe it's been thought through, but there's no practiceable solution in sight.
 

Alaude Drenxta

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i guess they must have already thought that thru and must haved used something special for it wont occur i mean if you thought about it then they must have also thought about it

I already thought of that. There are tons of gels and substances that have that property, and every liquid but water shrinks instead of expands, so it sound simple in theory.

But what you are proposing is that they dehydrated the bodies, which is NOT a procedure anyone could live through.
Replaced the liquid in their muscles and cells, again, it would destroy you instantly.
Then froze them in just the right way.

It's literally impossible with our current technology. Everyone who is frozen is just a chump who hocked up a lot of money for a science fiction pipe dream. XD
 

LongLiveLife

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I already thought of that. There are tons of gels and substances that have that property, and every liquid but water shrinks instead of expands, so it sound simple in theory.

But what you are proposing is that they dehydrated the bodies, which is NOT a procedure anyone could live through.
Replaced the liquid in their muscles and cells, again, it would destroy you instantly.
Then froze them in just the right way.

It's literally impossible with our current technology. Everyone who is frozen is just a chump who hocked up a lot of money for a science fiction pipe dream. XD

Current technology, yes. But if our friends the antifreeze squirrels and fish elucidate our knowledge on what keeps them unfrozen at core temperatures as low as -3°C, this may eventually become a viable option for the dead to further drain our resources.
 

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True talk. Who knows where we'll be 100 years from now? I wouldn't be at all surprised if they developed a method for preserving the bodies. And if not for the bodies currently frozen, then certainly as a precaution for cryogenically frozen individuals in the future.
 

Alaude Drenxta

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actually the biggest problem with cryogenics is thawing out the individual without liquefying them

Point taken, but what I was trying to get across is, if you can't even freeze them successfully without doing major damage, you shouldn't even worry about figuring out how to thaw them.
 

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