Is Kingdom Hearts poorly written?

[the red monster]

And the proportions wouldn't even be an issue if the OCs and Disney intermingled more.

Yep that's actually my biggest issue with the disney worlds.
KH3 did try to make them more relevant but it still felt lacking.

 

[Launchpad]

I still contend that Vanitas's resurrection via scream-cannister is one of the cooler uses of a Disney mechanic in the main story. It, and the fact that Sora learns about Ven, put Monstropolis ahead of the other Disney worlds for me, in terms of main story shit.

 

[Face My Fears]

The amount of balance of Disney content does not affect the quality of the writing of the OC material. The writers' ability to write affects the writing of the OC material. And the proportions wouldn't even be an issue if the OCs and Disney intermingled more.

Disney isnt the problem. Corporate Disney is.


•There's no reason Sora and Kairi couldn't both appear in Arendelle to witness fear and sacrifice.

•There's no reason why Roxas just had to return post BH6 - the entire point of that was that Tadashi still lived on inside Baymax, just like Roxas still lived on inside Sora.

•No Zerg in Toy Box lmfao

All Disney problems.

I don't include the Disney aspects when I think about KH's story being "well written". The Disney worlds are what make the story difficult to tell in the first place, since a significant amount of time is spent in worlds that have little to nothing to do with the main plot.

With that said, it should go without saying that Disney cannot and should not be the issue when judging KH's quality of writing since the main title game that arguably had the worst use of Disney worlds is placed on the highest pedestal - KH2.

The issue with recent KH games is simply this: pacing. KH2 comes across as great storytelling because the pacing is really well done. I've said this for so long, but KH2's actual plot isn't anywhere near as good as KH3's. The only difference is that KH2 had such good pacing that no one notices it.

Xemnas wants to use Sora's keyblade to create an artificial Kingdom Hearts so that he can become whole again (after intentionally becoming a nobody). After Sora learns this (about midway through the game), he continues to use the keyblade without a care in the world (or even acknowledging it).

vs.

Sora wants to gain the Power of Waking to assemble the 7 Guardians of Light in order to confront Master Xehanort and stop him from summoning Kingdom Hearts and creating the X-Blade. To force Sora to confront him, Master Xehanort searches for and targets the new Princesses of Heart in Disney worlds; while also building his ranks with research in Disney worlds (Xion, Vanitas)

Xemnas didn't use any tactics to force Sora into creating the artificial Kingdom Hearts. Sure, you could say that unleashing the heartless into worlds and threatening them was a tactic, but they didn't acknowledge much, so you would have to force the connection. There were never any moments of Sora being hesitant to use the keyblade after finding out that Xemnas was using him. Also, Sora doesn't really have a goal in KH2 besides "stop the Organization". There's no actual weight to that goal since the Organization only shows itself in the beginning (in Radiant Garden), in the middle (in Radiant Garden - 1000 heartless battle), and in the end (The World That Never Was). KH2 didn't have anything in between the beginning, middle, and end. I firmly believe that this is why KH2 gets away with being seen as "superior plot" since those are basically the components for good storytelling.

On the flip side, KH3 was basically beginning and huge end - which made the game never feel like it "got started", it always feels like it's "starting". It needed a moment to link the actions of the Organization in the Disney worlds to the big ending - Aqua's return, Roxas' return, the Keyblade War etc. KH3 suffers from always feeling like it's the start of the game, then just getting to the end. Even though the Disney worlds were used significantly better and the main antagonists had a bigger presence and actually acted in the worlds, if those actions are not connected to the ending, it ends up being ineffective. We can make conclusions about why Young Xehanort was in Toy Box or Vanitas in Monstropolis or Larxene in Arendelle, but the game sorely lacked a few hours of content that would bring it all together in the middle. That missing link is what makes the plot of KH3 seem glaringly worse than KH2. But it's not so much the plot, but rather the way the plot was delivered - with horrible pacing.

Now if we're talking about the franchise - or Dark Seeker Saga as a whole - I would have to say... no. I don't think it's poorly written. I think the issue is the execution. KH1 is the gold standard for KH storytelling because the pacing was on point, the Disney worlds actually added to the lore of the story, and it contained a complete story while also leaving room for more. The only other game I can think of that really did this (well) was Chain of Memories. But then we get games like Birth By Sleep that exist solely to fulfill Nomura's storytelling needs (explain Master Xehanort, Keyblade War, Kingdom Hearts, X-Blade, and explain away Aqua, Terra, Ven after using them to do the aforementioned). We also get games that introduce new elements that the main story itself doesn't really need for the ultimate climax of the saga (Xion - Days, Book of Prophecies - coded, KHUX - KHUX). So the story is all there, but it's so fragmented. Now I actually enjoy lining the pieces up (yours and mine ) because it makes me feel special that I read all the reports and stuff, but it adds depth the series that you don't really experience if you play casually. I think if Nomura knew where he was going and didn't rely so heavily on "OMG" moments, the story would come across better to people. But I don't think the Kingdom Hearts series is written poorly, it just has a major problem with relaying information to the players in an effective manner that would bring about a profound catharsis.

Sometimes I wonder how someone would experience KH if they played the games in the chronology of the franchise: BbS>0.2>KH1>CoM>Days>KH2>coded>3D>KH3

I kind of feel like you might actually view the series differently because you'd know about Master Xehanort and the X-Blade from the beginning, you'd see Aqua at the end of KH1 (which you don't know is the end of KH1), you'll get hyped/sad realizing that Aqua was behind the door in KH1 and seeing who those children from BbS grew up to be (Sora/Riku/Kairi), you'll learn more about the Organization/Roxas in CoM/Days, so that in KH2 they will have more depth (you also see another reference to Aqua which will probably get the player hyped), coded will inform Sora of the people that are still missing and need his help (Terra, Aqua, Ven, Xion, Roxas), 3D reveals the Organization's master plan, and KH3 is the Keyblade War.

If you break that down in terms of storytelling, you can think of BbS and 0.2 as the first act where it builds up all the necessary information for the main plot (antagonist, goal, lore elements). KH1 to KH3D are the second act where most of the action takes place and the turning point to the third act being the realization that all the nobodies are restored and the Organization will be reassembled (while many protagonists are still lost). It also emphasizes the importance of Sora, as he's taken to his lowest point at the end of KH3D, where it connects his whole arc from KH1 to KH3D as being a target of manipulation by Master Xehanort. KH3 is the third act where the heroes try desperately to put an end to the villain - with each side using different tactics to gain victory.

 

[MrFranklin95]

*sigh* why am I doing this....

Okay, so, I'm trying to reframe from this kind of discussion for my own mental health because honest to god Kingdom Hearts as a whole has kind of just worn me out for the past few years. Every discussion that use to leave me with joy and excitement now leaves me with confusion and frustration in more ways then one.

Kingdom Hearts is just ...a lot.

But to be honest, half that reason is because its potential of what kind of story it can be. Like, let's be real here: this shit is bonkers but Its lore is probably one of more interesting and original takes I've ever seen in any media ever. The fact that a heart and a soul are not technically the same thing is kind of wild. But not only that but it is surprisingly ripe for great emotional storytelling. We've seen it in this series numerous times. Roxas as a character wouldn't exist if it weren't for it. And yeah, I know I sound like a typical hardcore KH fan here but if I'm being real, most of it is pretty understandable. It just kind of goes to show how many people actually pay attention to a story, at least in the moments where it matters (I'll get to that) because I've seen countless playthroughs of people who played the ending of MoM who didn't understand anything that was going on and me as fan was completely understanding everything happening. Like with Kairi turning into Sora. Yeah, if you don't know this universe and how it operates, that comes completely out of nowhere but as a fan who reads up on this universe inside and out, that moment is still incredibly stupid but its not uncommon for something like that to happen if you understand how this universe works. In KH1, we find out that Kairi's heart was hiding inside of Sora the entire time and the only way to free her was to stab himself with a keyblade, thus turning him into a heartless in the process. And this is the first game, the "simple" one.

But this is where I'm conflicted with this particular series and when I talk about its potential because when we talk about bad storytelling, that comes with a lot of factors that more often then we care to admit because of our own individuals taste vs what objectively counts as bad storytelling. Because at the end of the day, what is good or bad to you is ultimately subjective. What matters to you in a story is ultimately subjective. I know to a lot of people that argument feels like a cop out but if you watch and play a lot of media and talk a lot of people of that media, that statement grows more and more true everyday I live. I'll give two examples that stand out to me personally rt

For example one... Naruto. I cannot fathom why this series is popular or why people care. Nothing about Naruto sparks emotion or investment besides its main character and even that loses its value kind of quickly. I've tried. I've tried so very hard to be into it and I just can't. And everything after that feels like it only gets worse. But people love it. People cherish this series with good points that I can't refute. At the end of the day, the series has certain aspects that take away from me enjoying it but just because I don't personally enjoy it doesnt make it bad... but even then, it still has objectively bad storytelling methods. I am once again conflicted.

Another example is in the series itself... *sigh* Xion. I won't linger on this too long because I don't want to delve into another arguement because sorry guys, you aren't changing my mind on this one and don't feel like beating dead horse at this point. But there is a significant portion of the fanbase that really REALLY hates this character. And REALLY I don't get it. I've read every argument under the sun and some I can even somewhat agree with but as a whole... I still don't understand. Or to be frank, I don't understand hating this character to the point some do. She really isn't that bad compared to other characters that basically have nothing else going on even in their own games. But objectively, from a character point of view, she is one of the more emotionally fleshed out characters in this entire series. There is a reason people cheer or cry when they hear her theme music and it isn't for no reason. You can chalk it up to Yoko's music but Terra's theme is one of my favorite pieces from her and when I listen to that song, I feel nothing for Terra. But I feel something for Xion because no matter what logic you throw at me that theoretically invalidates her character, her emotional arc worked so well for so many people that calling it bad writing or calling her a bad character, at the very least, feels conflicting.

Because that being said, there is logic about it that conflicts with itself but it's a unique problem that KH constantly runs into. On the one hand, and I've said this before, the Roxas vs Riku fight makes no sense without 358/2 Days, it just doesn't work emotionally or logically from Roxas' perspective if you line up the timeline in KH2. But you know what? It still worked for people. And again, Xion being created, from a certain point of view, doesn't make sense. Xemnas and Vexen didn't *need* to create her but at the end of the day, it still worked for people.

See, here is the thing about storytelling. No matter the universe or its rules, as long as the story works on an emotional level, then sometimes logic (some, anyway) can be twisted or just not matter. Don't get me wrong, the story still needs to make sense logically as far as what universe it takes place in but as long the characters aren't acting out of character, then everything else can work. It's been done in so many stories. That's why finding plot holes in many classic stories isnt really hard to do but the story emotionally works so well that none of that stuff really matters. There are entire youtube channels dedicated to finding plotholes in stories but it doesn't take away from how good those stories are.

So when it comes to that and the subjectivity of people when it comes to media, what is the point of calling anything bad or good storytelling? Well, because good storytelling at a base level, no matter subjectivity, has to abide by three things and three only

1. Structure
2. Characters
2. Emotional payoff

These are three of Kingdom Heart's biggest issues.

For one thing, people underestimate how important structure actually is. Face My Fears brought up a really good point that I've been saying for years. KH2's plot is not very good. It's good for like a minute in the beginning and a few moments here and there but other then that, KH2 as a story is lacking a lot but people fondly remember it because of the way it was put together. The Pacing works so well that you forget the story is actually pretty bad and nothing happens for most of it. But we all still cried and felt emotionally satisfied when it all ended. Because we like the characters and KH2 had enough emotional payoff that was enough to carry us through it in a way that made people feel something. It's something KH3 severely lacked.

KH3 as a whole could've worked it if its emotions didnt feel so hallow and its structure/pacing didn't feel like cramming itself in the last act because that's been my biggest problem with these games since DDD came out. Games like KH1, COM, KH2, BBS, and 358/2 Days work because despite some of it not making sense or being rectoned, the way they are presented and the way characters react to events in the story always pays off in some way.

KH1 is very basic and somewhat tropey but had likable characters that have arcs that payoff in the end and linger enough for the story to continue

KH COM is KH1 remix but again, the characters and their struggles are what regard it as a fan favorite, with Namine being its biggest stand out.

KH2 is a story where mostly nothing happens but when Sora and Riku finally reunited, Roxas and Namine accept their original selves and Sora finally gets back home, you feel like it was all worth it.

358/2 Days is a story that doesn't need to exist but just like its characters, it does. And because it does, it turned out to be one of it's best stories on an emotional level.

BBS manages to squeeze enough likability out of its characters that you at the very least cared. Enough to where their tragic ends mean something. Enough that one of its blandest characters, Aqua, suddenly became one of the most popular. She's literally one of the only one outside of Roxas that got her own game.

These games, despite having stories that aren't THAT good, work because these characters work. The emotional payoff work on some level because the structure works and helps pace the story to where the emotional moments and payoffs matter. We care about what's going to happen next. Even the Disney worlds, while largely pointless, existed in service of the OC characters for better or worse. Obviously they don't always work but they have enough charm to them to make me like playing them and see how the OC characters respond to the world around them.

All these reasons and more is why DDD, KH3, Union X, and MoM to some degree do not work.

I have played and watch the entirety of Union X from the beginning. And the only thing that has gotten a genuine human emotion out of me was Sterlitzia and her death. That was it. One moment out of hundreds of hours of gameplay. Because despite all the interesting lore, I don't care about this story or any of its characters. Nothing.

Dark Road as a whole feels like a giant afterthought that should've been before or have been apart of KH3.

DDD is all over the place. Most of it is just characters explaining why the plot is happening instead of just letting the story happen naturally. Every single character acts completly out of character, especially Sora. I know he's not the brightest kid but he's not this dumb and he's not this cheery.

But this is where DDD blows my mind because everything about this story doesn't work except for one thing... Riku. His arc and coming to terms with his choices and the finality of his redemption is the only thing that works and why DDD has any merit.

And that's the true problem here. DDD could've worked if the storytelling was on the same level as Riku but because it's not. It falls on it's face where other games with similar problems didn't. Because in those stories, all that matter was how you felt about the characters and how they are presented to you in this world. The plot and characters worked together to create emotional payoff. The problem is the plot doesn't exist to serve the characters anymore. The characters exist the serve the plot and that's why every scene in KH3 that should have emotional payoff just doesn't. Everything in KH3 didnt feel earned, it felt like Noruma was checking off a qouta of things that needed to happen. It's why Union X is a story I cannot connect to because its nothing but PLOT.

Kingdom Hearts has been so wrapped in its bullshit that it forgot why anyone listened in the first place. We all know a person having someone's heart living inside their own is nonsense but we buy it because it exists to serve the characters, how they respond to the universe around them, their relationships to others, and how its structured at a certain point in the story to be shocking but also have meaning.

Because, as I said before, KH as a universe is not THAT complicated. At some point, you kind of understand how the world operates. The story bends itself backwards all the time to make itself make sense. But that's not the problem here. The problem is why should I care in the first place?

Why should I give a fuck about any of the characters in Union X? Because maybe they'll be in a future game? Who cares, tell me why I should care about these characters right now? I know nothing about any of the foretellers besides Ava that stand out and know next to nothing about Ephemer or Skuld and all I know about Marluxia is that his sister died but that's it.

KH3 had every emotional arc handed to it on a silver platter and did nothing with it. The only thing that sparked emotion was Aqua returning and Sora dying at the end. Every else felt shallow and by the numbers.

Both of these dont work because the structure is off, which means the pacing is off. And the characters don't act like human beings with connections and friendships. They don't bounce off each other. It feels so hallow and empty. The entirety of the Guardians scene in Yen Sid's tower falls flat because it feels so lifeless and most of it is exposition and characters explaining thing to each other for shit we already know.

This is why future installments scare me because if this is the quality from now on, that is truly disappointing. Its forgetting why this universe works in the first place because of the characters and their connection to the world and each other and only using it as window dressing to serve a plot that doesn't know where its going. I rag on shonen anime a lot but at least those stories have an end goal in mind. It just feels like Noruma and co don't want to do the character work anymore and just want to do crazy plot lore bullshit while not giving us a reason to care about any of it and putting and creating characters in certain spots that aren't interesting or fun or have been done before.

It truly blew my mind with MoM because I'm sorry guys, Kairi training with Aqua is dumb and boring. Not that the idea in and of itself is dumb and boring, it makes sense and could be interesting, but the fact that Kairi is only staying behind because suddenly, the characters are thinking "logically" is what truly blow my mind. Because here's the thing, characters don't always have to think logically to move the plot. Irrationality is the bases for most plots, you just have to do in the way that's interesting, have the actions makes sense for that character, and make sure it serves the character's arc. Yeah, Kairi is not strong enough but in all honesty, who FUCKING cares? Like, who honestly gives a shit? It really isn't that implausible for her to convince Riku to take her along. Yen Sid threw Sora and Riku in a time warp test at LV.1. Ventus went head first out of a world that as far he knows has never left to search for Terra. Aqua dove into a dark portal and saved Terra, dooming her fate in the process. Roxas went out of his way to battle Riku who was in the way of him attempting to kill Xemnas and open KH to save a dead friend. Sora dove head first into the RoD when every told him not too to save Riku and Mickey. But suddenly, it comes to Kairi, the characters are thinking "logically" now? What the fuck. This isn't a situation of "oh, I get it" no, this is just lazy. This is your way of writing yourself out of writing for a character to actually have any satisfying emotional payoff to her current journey and benching her simply because you don't feel it. Nope. Not anything fun or interesting for her character to do that could lead to interesting interactions, just more training. Oh my god


So to answer... is Kingdom Hearts poorly written? Depends on who you ask honestly but if you want my opinion, it didn't before but it does now. Because it values its plot above its characters. The previous games have problems for sure but everything had meaning and purpose in the end. Now I feel like it's being crushed by the weight of it's own lore while not giving enough to its characters to make that lore mean anything in the end.

The Unreality plot is interesting but I won't be shocked if it goes nowhere. And I only like it for how meta it could get but honestly, what does exploring another reality mean for these characters? Why would it even matter at all? It just doesn't feel like its leading up to anything emotionally satisfying. But maybe it's too early to say.

Look, all this being said, I haven't given up on the series. The one thing the series has always been good at is tugging at the emotions. It's always been the series biggest strength. Which is why I always feel like the series could be more then what it is. Noruma just needs that extra push to do it. And honestly, I think all of us are gonna have to wait and see. KH3 suffered from botched development and they tried to make up for it with Re: mind. MoM is a fun game with some interesting lore and good character moments for Kairi. The series is not without merit. Not everything in KH3 didn't work. But the best thing the series can do right now is take a break, which I'm glad they are doing. And the hopefully the next game and KH4 will benefit from it.

All right last post for the year, I'm going to bed. Bye.

 

[Deleted member 252753]

All right last post for the year, I'm going to bed. Bye

It was a good post to end the year on.

My own thoughts are pretty confused. I still think there are a lot of interesting concepts and good moments in the story and my instinct is to defend the writing to the death but I admit the story doesn't feel very cohesive lately and I can see why people get upset about how characters, especially female ones, are treated. I'm glad there won't be a new game next year so I can step back from it a bit more easily.

 

[Deliverance]

100% this.
which is why i hope disney will get less of a focus in the next couple of games, at least.
i loved ReMind because there's no disney focus. i want more OC stuff instead of disney filler that does almost nothing for the main plot.
either make disney worlds relevant for the main story like KH1 or have just few of them so it won't take all the focus from the OC material.
i feel KH kinda outgrow disney by now, there's too much going on but there's no time because disney keep taking 80% of the game which is why a lot of ideas left unexplored/left for future games. KH3 suffered the most because of it.

Funnily enough, I hold the exact opposite opinion. The worlds being irrelevant movie rehashes is obviously bad but the idea of them becoming backdrops for discount FF characters and plots is even worse.

They need to pick a story and theme that compliments the premise of visiting multiple worlds, and have a small cast whose connection to the theme can be explored through those worlds. Then the movie plots can be modified so that any thematic similarities are emphasized.
...oh I guess I just ended up describing KH1.

 

[Face My Fears]

*sigh* why am I doing this....

Okay, so, I'm trying to reframe from this kind of discussion for my own mental health because honest to god Kingdom Hearts as a whole has kind of just worn me out for the past few years. Every discussion that use to leave me with joy and excitement now leaves me with confusion and frustration in more ways then one.

Kingdom Hearts is just ...a lot.

But to be honest, half that reason is because its potential of what kind of story it can be. Like, let's be real here: this shit is bonkers but Its lore is probably one of more interesting and original takes I've ever seen in any media ever. The fact that a heart and a soul are not technically the same thing is kind of wild. But not only that but it is surprisingly ripe for great emotional storytelling. We've seen it in this series numerous times. Roxas as a character wouldn't exist if it weren't for it. And yeah, I know I sound like a typical hardcore KH fan here but if I'm being real, most of it is pretty understandable. It just kind of goes to show how many people actually pay attention to a story, at least in the moments where it matters (I'll get to that) because I've seen countless playthroughs of people who played the ending of MoM who didn't understand anything that was going on and me as fan was completely understanding everything happening. Like with Kairi turning into Sora. Yeah, if you don't know this universe and how it operates, that comes completely out of nowhere but as a fan who reads up on this universe inside and out, that moment is still incredibly stupid but its not uncommon for something like that to happen if you understand how this universe works. In KH1, we find out that Kairi's heart was hiding inside of Sora the entire time and the only way to free her was to stab himself with a keyblade, thus turning him into a heartless in the process. And this is the first game, the "simple" one.

But this is where I'm conflicted with this particular series and when I talk about its potential because when we talk about bad storytelling, that comes with a lot of factors that more often then we care to admit because of our own individuals taste vs what objectively counts as bad storytelling. Because at the end of the day, what is good or bad to you is ultimately subjective. What matters to you in a story is ultimately subjective. I know to a lot of people that argument feels like a cop out but if you watch and play a lot of media and talk a lot of people of that media, that statement grows more and more true everyday I live. I'll give two examples that stand out to me personally rt

For example one... Naruto. I cannot fathom why this series is popular or why people care. Nothing about Naruto sparks emotion or investment besides its main character and even that loses its value kind of quickly. I've tried. I've tried so very hard to be into it and I just can't. And everything after that feels like it only gets worse. But people love it. People cherish this series with good points that I can't refute. At the end of the day, the series has certain aspects that take away from me enjoying it but just because I don't personally enjoy it doesnt make it bad... but even then, it still has objectively bad storytelling methods. I am once again conflicted.

Another example is in the series itself... *sigh* Xion. I won't linger on this too long because I don't want to delve into another arguement because sorry guys, you aren't changing my mind on this one and don't feel like beating dead horse at this point. But there is a significant portion of the fanbase that really REALLY hates this character. And REALLY I don't get it. I've read every argument under the sun and some I can even somewhat agree with but as a whole... I still don't understand. Or to be frank, I don't understand hating this character to the point some do. She really isn't that bad compared to other characters that basically have nothing else going on even in their own games. But objectively, from a character point of view, she is one of the more emotionally fleshed out characters in this entire series. There is a reason people cheer or cry when they hear her theme music and it isn't for no reason. You can chalk it up to Yoko's music but Terra's theme is one of my favorite pieces from her and when I listen to that song, I feel nothing for Terra. But I feel something for Xion because no matter what logic you throw at me that theoretically invalidates her character, her emotional arc worked so well for so many people that calling it bad writing or calling her a bad character, at the very least, feels conflicting.

Because that being said, there is logic about it that conflicts with itself but it's a unique problem that KH constantly runs into. On the one hand, and I've said this before, the Roxas vs Riku fight makes no sense without 358/2 Days, it just doesn't work emotionally or logically from Roxas' perspective if you line up the timeline in KH2. But you know what? It still worked for people. And again, Xion being created, from a certain point of view, doesn't make sense. Xemnas and Vexen didn't *need* to create her but at the end of the day, it still worked for people.

See, here is the thing about storytelling. No matter the universe or its rules, as long as the story works on an emotional level, then sometimes logic (some, anyway) can be twisted or just not matter. Don't get me wrong, the story still needs to make sense logically as far as what universe it takes place in but as long the characters aren't acting out of character, then everything else can work. It's been done in so many stories. That's why finding plot holes in many classic stories isnt really hard to do but the story emotionally works so well that none of that stuff really matters. There are entire youtube channels dedicated to finding plotholes in stories but it doesn't take away from how good those stories are.

So when it comes to that and the subjectivity of people when it comes to media, what is the point of calling anything bad or good storytelling? Well, because good storytelling at a base level, no matter subjectivity, has to abide by three things and three only

1. Structure
2. Characters
2. Emotional payoff

These are three of Kingdom Heart's biggest issues.

For one thing, people underestimate how important structure actually is. Face My Fears brought up a really good point that I've been saying for years. KH2's plot is not very good. It's good for like a minute in the beginning and a few moments here and there but other then that, KH2 as a story is lacking a lot but people fondly remember it because of the way it was put together. The Pacing works so well that you forget the story is actually pretty bad and nothing happens for most of it. But we all still cried and felt emotionally satisfied when it all ended. Because we like the characters and KH2 had enough emotional payoff that was enough to carry us through it in a way that made people feel something. It's something KH3 severely lacked.

KH3 as a whole could've worked it if its emotions didnt feel so hallow and its structure/pacing didn't feel like cramming itself in the last act because that's been my biggest problem with these games since DDD came out. Games like KH1, COM, KH2, BBS, and 358/2 Days work because despite some of it not making sense or being rectoned, the way they are presented and the way characters react to events in the story always pays off in some way.

KH1 is very basic and somewhat tropey but had likable characters that have arcs that payoff in the end and linger enough for the story to continue

KH COM is KH1 remix but again, the characters and their struggles are what regard it as a fan favorite, with Namine being its biggest stand out.

KH2 is a story where mostly nothing happens but when Sora and Riku finally reunited, Roxas and Namine accept their original selves and Sora finally gets back home, you feel like it was all worth it.

358/2 Days is a story that doesn't need to exist but just like its characters, it does. And because it does, it turned out to be one of it's best stories on an emotional level.

BBS manages to squeeze enough likability out of its characters that you at the very least cared. Enough to where their tragic ends mean something. Enough that one of its blandest characters, Aqua, suddenly became one of the most popular. She's literally one of the only one outside of Roxas that got her own game.

These games, despite having stories that aren't THAT good, work because these characters work. The emotional payoff work on some level because the structure works and helps pace the story to where the emotional moments and payoffs matter. We care about what's going to happen next. Even the Disney worlds, while largely pointless, existed in service of the OC characters for better or worse. Obviously they don't always work but they have enough charm to them to make me like playing them and see how the OC characters respond to the world around them.

All these reasons and more is why DDD, KH3, Union X, and MoM to some degree do not work.

I have played and watch the entirety of Union X from the beginning. And the only thing that has gotten a genuine human emotion out of me was Sterlitzia and her death. That was it. One moment out of hundreds of hours of gameplay. Because despite all the interesting lore, I don't care about this story or any of its characters. Nothing.

Dark Road as a whole feels like a giant afterthought that should've been before or have been apart of KH3.

DDD is all over the place. Most of it is just characters explaining why the plot is happening instead of just letting the story happen naturally. Every single character acts completly out of character, especially Sora. I know he's not the brightest kid but he's not this dumb and he's not this cheery.

But this is where DDD blows my mind because everything about this story doesn't work except for one thing... Riku. His arc and coming to terms with his choices and the finality of his redemption is the only thing that works and why DDD has any merit.

And that's the true problem here. DDD could've worked if the storytelling was on the same level as Riku but because it's not. It falls on it's face where other games with similar problems didn't. Because in those stories, all that matter was how you felt about the characters and how they are presented to you in this world. The plot and characters worked together to create emotional payoff. The problem is the plot doesn't exist to serve the characters anymore. The characters exist the serve the plot and that's why every scene in KH3 that should have emotional payoff just doesn't. Everything in KH3 didnt feel earned, it felt like Noruma was checking off a qouta of things that needed to happen. It's why Union X is a story I cannot connect to because its nothing but PLOT.

Kingdom Hearts has been so wrapped in its bullshit that it forgot why anyone listened in the first place. We all know a person having someone's heart living inside their own is nonsense but we buy it because it exists to serve the characters, how they respond to the universe around them, their relationships to others, and how its structured at a certain point in the story to be shocking but also have meaning.

Because, as I said before, KH as a universe is not THAT complicated. At some point, you kind of understand how the world operates. The story bends itself backwards all the time to make itself make sense. But that's not the problem here. The problem is why should I care in the first place?

Why should I give a fuck about any of the characters in Union X? Because maybe they'll be in a future game? Who cares, tell me why I should care about these characters right now? I know nothing about any of the foretellers besides Ava that stand out and know next to nothing about Ephemer or Skuld and all I know about Marluxia is that his sister died but that's it.

KH3 had every emotional arc handed to it on a silver platter and did nothing with it. The only thing that sparked emotion was Aqua returning and Sora dying at the end. Every else felt shallow and by the numbers.

Both of these dont work because the structure is off, which means the pacing is off. And the characters don't act like human beings with connections and friendships. They don't bounce off each other. It feels so hallow and empty. The entirety of the Guardians scene in Yen Sid's tower falls flat because it feels so lifeless and most of it is exposition and characters explaining thing to each other for shit we already know.

This is why future installments scare me because if this is the quality from now on, that is truly disappointing. Its forgetting why this universe works in the first place because of the characters and their connection to the world and each other and only using it as window dressing to serve a plot that doesn't know where its going. I rag on shonen anime a lot but at least those stories have an end goal in mind. It just feels like Noruma and co don't want to do the character work anymore and just want to do crazy plot lore bullshit while not giving us a reason to care about any of it and putting and creating characters in certain spots that aren't interesting or fun or have been done before.

It truly blew my mind with MoM because I'm sorry guys, Kairi training with Aqua is dumb and boring. Not that the idea in and of itself is dumb and boring, it makes sense and could be interesting, but the fact that Kairi is only staying behind because suddenly, the characters are thinking "logically" is what truly blow my mind. Because here's the thing, characters don't always have to think logically to move the plot. Irrationality is the bases for most plots, you just have to do in the way that's interesting, have the actions makes sense for that character, and make sure it serves the character's arc. Yeah, Kairi is not strong enough but in all honesty, who FUCKING cares? Like, who honestly gives a shit? It really isn't that implausible for her to convince Riku to take her along. Yen Sid threw Sora and Riku in a time warp test at LV.1. Ventus went head first out of a world that as far he knows has never left to search for Terra. Aqua dove into a dark portal and saved Terra, dooming her fate in the process. Roxas went out of his way to battle Riku who was in the way of him attempting to kill Xemnas and open KH to save a dead friend. Sora dove head first into the RoD when every told him not too to save Riku and Mickey. But suddenly, it comes to Kairi, the characters are thinking "logically" now? What the fuck. This isn't a situation of "oh, I get it" no, this is just lazy. This is your way of writing yourself out of writing for a character to actually have any satisfying emotional payoff to her current journey and benching her simply because you don't feel it. Nope. Not anything fun or interesting for her character to do that could lead to interesting interactions, just more training. Oh my god


So to answer... is Kingdom Hearts poorly written? Depends on who you ask honestly but if you want my opinion, it didn't before but it does now. Because it values its plot above its characters. The previous games have problems for sure but everything had meaning and purpose in the end. Now I feel like it's being crushed by the weight of it's own lore while not giving enough to its characters to make that lore mean anything in the end.

The Unreality plot is interesting but I won't be shocked if it goes nowhere. And I only like it for how meta it could get but honestly, what does exploring another reality mean for these characters? Why would it even matter at all? It just doesn't feel like its leading up to anything emotionally satisfying. But maybe it's too early to say.

Look, all this being said, I haven't given up on the series. The one thing the series has always been good at is tugging at the emotions. It's always been the series biggest strength. Which is why I always feel like the series could be more then what it is. Noruma just needs that extra push to do it. And honestly, I think all of us are gonna have to wait and see. KH3 suffered from botched development and they tried to make up for it with Re: mind. MoM is a fun game with some interesting lore and good character moments for Kairi. The series is not without merit. Not everything in KH3 didn't work. But the best thing the series can do right now is take a break, which I'm glad they are doing. And the hopefully the next game and KH4 will benefit from it.

All right last post for the year, I'm going to bed. Bye.

The Roxas/Riku fight and Xion being created are typical KH subtleties. The series relies heavily on us putting the pieces together. From vanilla KH2 alone, you can probably figure out that Roxas/Riku were fighting because Riku wanted to take him in to restore Sora. It's not explicitly stated, but given the situation at the start of KH2 and realizing the hooded figure was actually Riku, it makes sense. Xion being created - at first - seems like a cheap emotional arc given to Roxas and promptly written off (as the haters think and I'm putting it lightly), but her creation is actually a beautifully understated development in Master Xehanort's character that works wonders. Not only does Xion's creation give Roxas an emotional journey and explain his character's choices, it also fleshes out Master Xehanort (or Xemnas) as extremely meticulous and planning for every outcome. If Roxas doesn't serve the Organization, he has a back up plan , which enhances his character as we've seen it from BbS to KH3. Not only that, but it touches on game lore (replicas) that was left back in CoM, presumably never to be heard from again.

The fact that Xion served multiple purposes, yet they all flew over some fans' heads (and hence why they hate her) is probably a testament to the Kingdom Hearts' series storytelling style. Nomura wants us to do the work and figure it out. Is that a style that people accept or like? I don't know. It seems pretty 50-50 with the way the KH community is. Does the storytelling style dictate if the story itself is poorly written? Nope. The story is there and I don't think it's poorly written, it's just poorly presented - which is subjective because I actually like the storytelling style for KH. I like the mystique and wonder that each game introduces. I like the wait for the next game for answers. Maybe all of that is just part of the KH experience? There are definitely aspects that Nomura can/needs to improve on - like treatment of female characters, pacing, character interactions, better use of worlds etc. But I'm really not sold on the story being poorly written.

PS: I don't know about the series "taking a break". I think a year off is worthwhile after KH3, ReMIND, and MoM, but going forward I think consistency is key. I think that was part of the problem of telling the story - BbS, Days, coded, and 3D (even UX and DR) all happen on side consoles, have vital information, and had a very haphazard release schedule in comparison to KH3's release. All these side projects open up the door for Nomura to add more (possibly unintentional) lore and characters (as seen with KHUX). He has been complaining that there's too many characters to put on the cover of the box art, then why does he keep making more? He should use resources that he has to flesh out the characters he absolutely must use for future games (SRK, TAV, RAX, Namine). Why couldn't KHUX be a dive into Kairi's memories to the ancient past or something? Like her connection to her grandmother gave her access to those memories. Sometimes there's so much potential, and Nomura doesn't use it.

 

[Rydgea]

Nope, technically getting a conclusion means only that, the thing that was stated to be concluded is concluded. A conclusion got written and delivered, but its execution and presentation was lackluster in many areas and mired in already setting up the new story in the middle of it all.

Not even KH II did that. While Xigbar did drop a hint in dialogue about "other Keybladers" and Final Mix added the whole scene of him and Zexion speaking about the chambers of waking and repose, their contents and connection (a plot point and all surrounding it that was dropped and never addressed again except one scene between Axel and Saix in Days) the setup for the next story (BBS) was fully delegated to the secret ending where imho such stuff belongs.

Oh yeah, I agree. That was just a poor attempt at humor on my part.

* * *

Guess I'll give my own personal take now.

I've never felt so polarized about a series. And frankly, it's the writing puts the love-hate in my love-hate relationship with KH. The pacing is hit-and-miss, the dialogue is cheap (cringe-worthy, at times), the presence of Disney worlds feels superfluous, Final Fantasy has been essentially dismissed from the (once upon a time) crossover, the main characters lack the depth a 17-year old franchise of around 10 games, 30+ hours each should have provided them, and the main protagonist, particularly, gradually becomes more immature in favor of a... "personality", I suppose. Sora's devolution is hard to buy, and I'm not about to blame Goofy for being a bad influence. Even in a hypothetical Super Weird Made-up Land 3000, I need to believe and care for the cast, and I wish I cared more about them. It took me playing Days and seeing everything he'd been through for me to appreciate the bittersweet punch Roxas's prologue in KHII was originally designed to deliver. It's not necessarily enough that bad/sad things happen to these fictional characters. I have to get to know them.

KH also habitually attempts these toilsome, "flashy backflips" in its writing. Since everything needs to be a mystery for the sake of being a mystery, and since plot points are left purposefully vague, I no longer take anything at face value. "I'm Ansem." "No, I'm Ansem." Sora's the only keyblade wielder. Now everyone is. Kairi arrived at Destiny Islands, because she's a PoH. No, that was due to Aqua's spell. Nomura never seems fully committed to where he wants certain ideas to go; twists are of the moment, and anything can happen to reverse them. These KHisms: the twists, the mysteries - I don't even necessarily hate. At this point they are synonymous with the series, but they can feel forced and clumsily handled. I still don't know why Ursula wound up at DI at the beginning of DDD. Was that confirmed to be a part of Yen Sid's test? Was it Xehanort's Heartless that sent her? But she's a phantom? What?

I swear I remember reading an interview (before this one from Multiplayer pertaining to KHIII) where, once given feedback on the series post-KH1, a superior (one maybe other than Sakaguchi) told Nomura not to hold back on the story. Regardless of my faulty memory, I always think about how he may have misconstrued advice on making bold choices as moving forward with them without editing eyes.

I've watched a lot of dumb anime and read a ton of low quality shoverlware isekai manga and i enjoyed them all. So my standards are low when it comes to stories. KH is super entertaining so that's all that matters to me, i think most people would benefit from just learning to go with the flow sometimes and learning to enjoy dumb stuff without questioning every little thing. Just enjoy it.

See, I think I personally experienced a major dissatisfaction with the saga (most notably due to the ending), because I consider myself easily entertained. There are plenty of controversial, divisive endings I don't have issues with: LOST, Game of Thrones, the new Star Wars trilogy. Okay, the last one hurts a little.. but not so much that I didn't enjoy the films for the most part, and didn't face disappointment to the extent that I felt a void from KHIII.

But I also think asking people to lower their expectations or standards, especially when they are based off of a history of stronger entries, is a little unnecessary (if not a touch insulting if everyone is engaging civilly). People have a right to deconstruct what they consume, ask why these things matter and remind ourselves we're not just shoveling shit in our faces with an illusion that it's chocolate truffles. We can consume garbage and enjoy it, but we need to acknowledge it for what it is. You are what you eat, and it's okay if people want the media they consume to be elevated to certain levels. I'm not saying KH is outright garbage, but it's also fairly shy of excellence.

Kingdom Hearts also makes no pretenses about its own self-seriousness. So, why are we, the audience, then expected to toss our hands up and pretend the plot is just supposed to just be silly little side dressing to pass the time between killing things? That's not how KH presents itself in-game (or how it markets itself); it assumes you'll be captivated by the overabundant melodrama. What having a heart and identity means, coping with loss and jealousy, maintaining balance between light and darkness and the cost of abusing either - KH didn't opt for frivolous themes. I can get into low standards with some Dumb and Dumber. What I can't get into is KH not finding its footing.

The excuse that "KH is a gaaame," and "Only the gameplay matters," is a poor defense for the writing's shortcomings also. As an RPG, plot is baked into KH's nature. I'm primarily drawn to RPGs because of the story-driven/character-driven aspect. Just as with books, film, comics, paintings, concerts etc., I appreciate a game's story-telling experience as a work of art; that it happens to be a virtual, interactive medium is an added bonus. I would say a game's soundtrack is of equal interest to me. At this point, for a triple A studio like Square, I honestly expect all these elements: gameplay, story and music to be of the same caliber, worthy of the premium for which SE charges its products. If I was disinterested in an RPG's writing, I would skip cutscenes or just go play some Space Invaders.

 

[cakito123]

I think I can understand what you are saying, but Kingdom Hearts has always operated on leaving these threads of intriguing storylines that have no resolution or lead up to something that amounts to nothing since KH2FM.

Yeah, but those open threads were always something new added to the last segment of the story as a teasing for the next chapter - and I think this is ok. BBS ended on a tragic note but the story from Terra/Ventus/Aqua really did end in BBS. DDD was about Riku's darkness being good and Sora's confusion over Dream-after-Dream from Xehanort's trap, and those stories also ended on a END note. And KH2 did end with a bottle teasing something but that was only a soft tease only to make clear to the players the franchise didn't end yet.

Back then we thought they served the plot and would have some interesting payoff but now that KH3 has come and gone, we were left with a lot of sequel bait that imo retroactively weakens the previous games and especially harmed KH3’s story.

KH3 was too busy trying to set itself up for the future that it forgot to resolve the past storylines outside of the big ones in any satisfying manner.

And ReMIND is really more of that, with a heap of random nonsense in the form of the “X” thing thrown on top for good measure.

That isn’t to say these things aren’t enjoyable because we all enjoy these games and I have found every game satisfying in its own way, but it’s all objectively bad storytelling. As the audience, we respond by making statements like “oh they will fix these things later” and later comes like with ReMIND and instead it just compounds onto the issues while maybe fixing a few things, and we as the audience come back again to say “oh they will certainly fix it this time around” and it keeps happening over and over. We said they’d fix Kairi in KH3, then she was killed by Xehanort, then we said she’d be fixed in ReMIND and she was to a degree then we said MOM was finally her time and then it wasn’t...

Do you see what I’m trying to get at here? There is a fundamental issue here with expectations, setup, payoff, and fans pushing their expectations to the next project in hopes that Nomura and the dev team will fix things later.

We hope for threads to have satisfying payoff, then we realize Nomura grew bored of that idea years ago and has dropped it until he looks back and decides to work it back into the story somehow...

I won't disagree with you on this one however, KH3 really was not a 100% stisfying payoff to all the loose threads remaing.

I just think that, anyway, KH2/ Days/ BBS/ KHDDD's stories had good endings. It didn't make me thirsty for a better 'conclusion' because those conclusions were good enough, I got only wondering about what'd happen later on the franchise.

 

[Raz]

I still contend that Vanitas's resurrection via scream-cannister is one of the cooler uses of a Disney mechanic in the main story. It, and the fact that Sora learns about Ven, put Monstropolis ahead of the other Disney worlds for me, in terms of main story shit.

You're absolutely right. Definitely a highlight. My only complaint is I'd love to see more Randall/Vanitas interaction.

 

[The Dead Skin]

Yes.

But I don't care, nor am I open to discuss that.

I think for one second about how Sora never needed training while so many others did, and then I go right back to "haha airstep go woosh". Even with all the writing mishaps in this series in mind, I just... don't get mad. This series is super personal to me, but I've never treated it like more or less than what it is.

It's just... fun for its own sake, the purest feeling there is. The illusion of "quality" was never there for me. I'm just here for the ride.

Swear to god, some people just act like obsessive ex-partners with that "I like this but IT'S BADLY WRITTEN, MAKES NO SENSE, AND I'M ASHAMED OF IT FOR PLAYING" spiel.

 

[Rydgea]

I don't want to talk about how people who get paid the big bucks to write plot do a poor job, but the community who recognizes that - they should be ashamed for expressing their opinions.

This is my problem: when constructive criticism of the series is then contorted by people who just want to recognize and reinforce the "positive".

If you don't want to engage with the community about the topic of this thread, because KH is FUN, but then flippantly compare them to cRaZy eXeS, that is all you, I suppose. But it's toxic.

We don't have to dumb ourselves down to have fun playing the game.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

I don't want to talk about how people who get paid the big bucks to write plot do a poor job, but the community who recognizes that - they should be ashamed for expressing their opinions.

This is my problem: when constructive criticism of the series is then contorted by people who just want to recognize and reinforce the "positive".

If you don't want to engage with the community about the topic of this thread, because KH is FUN, but then flippantly compare them to cRaZy eXeS, that is all you, I suppose. But it's toxic.

We don't have to dumb ourselves down to have fun playing the game.

I was about to say something similar.

If you have to cut down points from your IQ a couple of levels to accept or enjoy a game, then that's a grave issue. And it's admittance that it's a poorly, written mess automatically. If KH wants to survive, then they need to know that people aren't going to dumb themselves down for the nonsense Nomura brings about. It's becoming niche the more the years pass. I won't count MoM.

 

[The_Echo]

This is my problem: when constructive criticism of the series is then contorted by people who just want to recognize and reinforce the "positive".

I would say this thread has reached a point where it's the direct opposite of this issue

 

[Rydgea]

I would say this thread has reached a point where it's the direct opposite of this issue

I'm sorry. People disagreeing with your take on the writing or what constitutes an ending doesn't equate to base insults.

That was my experience alone. I wasn't making a "greater point" about anyone else or the fandom at large. I'm not "dumbing myself down" nor "enforcing" shit. If you're gonna put words in my mouth, at least read more than thr, you pseudo-intellectual twerp.

You want to talk shit? Shit it is. Somewhere out there, there's a tree whose express purpose is to replace the oxygen you breathe.

Go find that tree and apologize to it.

Fuck you.

Never said YOU were dumbing yourself down, but lord. Merry Xmas.

I was about to say something similar.

If you have to cut down points from your IQ a couple of levels to accept or enjoy a game, then that's a grave issue. And it's admittance that it's a poorly, written mess automatically. If KH wants to survive, then they need to know that people aren't going to dumb themselves down for the nonsense Nomura brings about. It's becoming niche the more the years pass. I won't count MoM.

And it's not to suggest the people who have issues with some or all of the writing don't enjoy the series otherwise. As the gameplay and writing are two distinguishable features, I can still technically have FUN in, say, KH3. But that's not what this thread's discussion is about.

 

[KeybladeLordSora]

Here's one thing we can all agree on.

KH is definitely better written than One More Day, that's a fact.

 

[Absent]

I just want to add,

Yes.

But I don't care, nor am I open to discuss that.

I think for one second about how Sora never needed training while so many others did, and then I go right back to "haha airstep go woosh". Even with all the writing mishaps in this series in mind, I just... don't get mad. This series is super personal to me, but I've never treated it like more or less than what it is.

It's just... fun for its own sake, the purest feeling there is. The illusion of "quality" was never there for me. I'm just here for the ride.

Swear to god, some people just act like obsessive ex-partners with that "I like this but IT'S BADLY WRITTEN, MAKES NO SENSE, AND I'M ASHAMED OF IT FOR PLAYING" spiel.

I play Kingdom Hearts 3 at least once a week. I love playing that game. It’s fun, flashy and refreshing. However despite that, I don’t like it’s plot, in fact I find it insulting on the most basic level. Every fan has their own personal relationship with this series, and believe or not some of them have very strong opinions that don’t affect Nomura or the series.
My friend you have to let go, as an avid fan of The Last Jedi, my love for it is wasn’t affected by the cesspool of hate and frankly despicable behavior of the fandom menace. I simply move from it and focused on what I like.
Forgive me for making an ass of myself for assuming, but it seems that other’s negative opinions of this series affects yours?

 

[The Dead Skin]

My friend you have to let go, as an avid fan of The Last Jedi, my love for it is wasn’t affected by the cesspool of hate and frankly despicable behavior of the fandom menace. I simply move from it and focused on what I like.
Forgive me for making an ass of myself for assuming, but it seems that other’s negative opinions of this series affects yours?

It doesn't just "affect" me. I've gotten more abuse than I can bear over this fucking Disney video game, can you believe that? Beaten, humiliated, dogpiled, the like?
I've been slowly and spectacularly destroyed over something so banal, I'll go medieval at the slightest confrontation over this funny-looking video game just so I can get out steam. Not even to "defend" the funny biddeo game. I just want to fight until someone's dead. Sadly no one ever dies in my fights, but I got hurt, so it was still real... I guess...

There's another aspect to the 'abuse', but it's so absurd I can't even put it into words. yeah. I'm out of words. What's done is done, and I should find something better to do than insult therapy.

You're right in every aspect, really.

 

[Absent]

Ok.

 

[Raz]

Hi! Let's not curse people out.

Anyways, is this good writing: