"Just Before the Dakness" The source of most of my confusion

[flyingfishstick]

I posted this same question on another thread, but it was never answered so I thought I might bring it up again.
Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance: The Movie - Sora's Story (HD 720p) - YouTube skip to 2:12:33.
This cutscene entitled "Just Before the Dakness" is the source of most of my confusion. It seems to suggest that the RF knew everything up until DDD from the very beginning while also implying that he got that information from his time within Riku's body. That seems to be contradictory and I'm pretty sure I'm interpreting the scene incorrectly. I have no idea what he's trying to say when Kairi's body flies out of the cave. Was Xehanort able to keep tabs on Sora through Kairi's heart or something else?

When playing the game, I always got the impression that an implied third party, such as Xehanort himself, made The RF from KH1 aware that he was in the past and gave him every bit of information needed to pass to YX, setting up the events of KHDDD. This would keep the time traveling contained to DDD without retroactively adding to the continuity of previous titles. This cutscene seems to suggest something else is going on. Did the robed figure some how tap into the future? Is it more likely that after Ansem was expelled from Riku at the end of KH2 he once more became the RF and traveled back to KHI destiny island and it is him that we see and not his KH1 counterpart?

I can buy that Xehanort thought he may need to use time travel in the future since day one and statigically compelled his heartless to place himself in specific locations in case something went wrong. I cannot accept that the RF knew about all of this information from the beginning and still went after Kingdom Hearts the improper way. Thanks for your help, this has been bothering me for ages.

 

[Evello]

I'm not sure where Riku plays into this all, but I believe Kairi flying out of the cave was intended to answer Sora's question of how the RF knew where to find Sora in order to give the Xehanort's a time travel destination into the Realm of Sleep. The answer is Kairi. Apprentice Ansem was established in past games to have sent Kairi out to the Ocean Between to guide Xehanort to the Keyblade hero, who we were told Xehanort originally thought was linked to the princesses of heart. In hindsight, I interpret the DDD scene to mean that Ansem actually sent Kairi out in order to pinpoint the location of Sora as part of his super mega ultra secret master plan. When Kairi landed on DI, Ansem knew that that was where Sora was and where he would need to be. So Ansem traveled there and found Sora just in time for DI to fall into sleep.

As for Riku, the only explanation I can think of for why he is relevant is that Ansem saw all Riku's experiences at the end of KH1 and then told them to YMX, who mostly forgot them when he was pulled back to his proper time but was slightly influenced by them enough that everything in his plan would work out without an issue.

 

[Luap]

When Ansem SOD takes Riku's body, he forgot everything about time travel, in the same way that once YMX returned to his own time he forgot about time travel. I would just assume that he took Riku's body as a mean to commit suicide (knowing SDG would defeat him) so that MX could be resurrected.

 

[Evello]

When Ansem SOD takes Riku's body, he forgot everything about time travel, in the same way that once YMX returned to his own time he forgot about time travel. I would just assume that he took Riku's body as a mean to commit suicide (knowing SDG would defeat him) so that MX could be resurrected.

YMX basically says to Sora that Riku being possessed by Ansem was how Xehanort knew everything that would happen in KH1 ahead of time. Him trying to kill himself would not really explain this. Somehow Riku's experiences were being sent back in time to earlier Xehanorts.

The only way I can make sense of this is to assume that Ansem and the other Xehanorts in DDD all told YMX what would happen in the future to prepare him (though YMX forgetting everything from the future is obviously a problem with this theory).

 

[flyingfishstick]

This still doesn't explain how KH1 era RF knew Sora and Riku were (somehow) coming to the past from the present in order to enter the realm of sleep for their MoM Exam. That is a very, very specific scenario that opens up even more questions. For example, how did he know that the realm of sleep would play into their exam? If this was happening during the events of KH1 when the RF was the most present form of Xehanort, how is it even possible for DDD era Sora and Riku to exist when they are from a future that hasn't played out yet? The past is unchangeable, the present is constantly being decided and moving forward, and the future seems to not exist because it has not happened yet. YX being able to pick up Post-Riku Ansem kind of implies that the RF is part of the past at this point and not the present. If the robed figure was in the present, YX would not be able to travel past the point that the RF originally left the flow of time, which was before he took Riku as his body.

The most logical situation I can think of is that we are dealing with the RF from two distinct time periods. KH1 era RF thought it would be fun to have a gateway to the RoS just for the hell of it. At the time he had no use for it but he thought it might come in handy to keep his options open. Perhaps his Xehanort Heart compelled him to do it. He possessed Riku and was eventually purged from his body at the end of KHII. He stuck around as the RF and spied on Sora and Riku until he figured out the nature of their exam and went back in time to inform YX about what needed to be done and who needed to be gathered. The RF went back to the present and returned to his Somebody form, somehow separately from Terra. YX had most of the current timeline to work with and was able to pick up everyone who needed to be picked up and returned to the KH1 era robe figure and use him as a portal into the Realm of Sleep in order to cause Sora and Riku trouble.
This is the only way that I see any of this time travel crap working. The guy we see talking to YX on the beach is more or less from the present and the guy we see in the beginning of the game is from the past. Of course, Sora and Riku are apparently able to time travel without following any of these rules and Timeless River suggests thats it's possible to change the past, so I guess we don't have the full picture yet.

I would just assume that he took Riku's body as a mean to commit suicide (knowing SDG would defeat him) so that MX could be resurrected.

I made a thread about that a while ago.

 

[Odium Crop]

... Well, there goes all of what I thought I knew about Kingdom Hearts. I should probably get back to the wiki again. The wiki says that the reason that Kairi reached the Destiny Islands was because Aqua had cast a 'protection spell' upon her (source?). The cut-scene in question implies that this is not true. By the way, where is it said that Kairi was sent out to sea by Terra-Xehanort?

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

... Well, there goes all of what I thought I knew about Kingdom Hearts. I should probably get back to the wiki again. The wiki says that the reason that Kairi reached the Destiny Islands was because Aqua had cast a 'protection spell' upon her (source?). The cut-scene in question implies that this is not true. By the way, where is it said that Kairi was sent out to sea by Terra-Xehanort?

The wiki is not an accurate source of information. It is good to use as a basis, but you're better off just asking questions on forums to get the full answers you seek.

It is true that Aqua cast a protection spell on Kairi's neckless. We see her do it after Aqua saves Kairi in BBS. The spell was meant to keep Kairi safe if she was ever in danger.

I have chosen one special girl. I do not know if she possesses a power like that of the Princesses. But, there is a chance, and this is an experiment. She may lead me to the place where the one holding the key is...

I shall send her off to the ocean of other worlds.

Ansem Reports - KINGDOM HEARTS - Kingdom Hearts Insider

When Apprentice Xehanort (Xehanort decided in report 10 to cast off his body but did not do this until report 12) sends Kairi out into the sea of the worlds (pretty much out into the Lanes) he hoped that she would find Keyblade wielders. Because of Aqua's spell, it took her to Destiny Islands because it was a safe world full of light...inadvertently she also ended up finding "the key", so Kairi still ended up doing exactly what Xehanort wanted of her.

 

[Evello]

This still doesn't explain how KH1 era RF knew Sora and Riku were (somehow) coming to the past from the present in order to enter the realm of sleep for their MoM Exam. That is a very, very specific scenario that opens up even more questions. For example, how did he know that the realm of sleep would play into their exam? If this was happening during the events of KH1 when the RF was the most present form of Xehanort, how is it even possible for DDD era Sora and Riku to exist when they are from a future that hasn't played out yet? The past is unchangeable, the present is constantly being decided and moving forward, and the future seems to not exist because it has not happened yet. YX being able to pick up Post-Riku Ansem kind of implies that the RF is part of the past at this point and not the present. If the robed figure was in the present, YX would not be able to travel past the point that the RF originally left the flow of time, which was before he took Riku as his body.

The most logical situation I can think of is that we are dealing with the RF from two distinct time periods. KH1 era RF thought it would be fun to have a gateway to the RoS just for the hell of it. At the time he had no use for it but he thought it might come in handy to keep his options open. Perhaps his Xehanort Heart compelled him to do it. He possessed Riku and was eventually purged from his body at the end of KHII. He stuck around as the RF and spied on Sora and Riku until he figured out the nature of their exam and went back in time to inform YX about what needed to be done and who needed to be gathered. The RF went back to the present and returned to his Somebody form, somehow separately from Terra. YX had most of the current timeline to work with and was able to pick up everyone who needed to be picked up and returned to the KH1 era robe figure and use him as a portal into the Realm of Sleep in order to cause Sora and Riku trouble.
This is the only way that I see any of this time travel crap working. The guy we see talking to YX on the beach is more or less from the present and the guy we see in the beginning of the game is from the past. Of course, Sora and Riku are apparently able to time travel without following any of these rules and Timeless River suggests thats it's possible to change the past, so I guess we don't have the full picture yet.

I made a thread about that a while ago.

The way I understood it, the future and present are no different than the past. Time is pretty much stated to be constant all around. The future is always established, even 'before' it happens. Xehanort straight up states that everything from BbS to DDD was all set in stone thanks to YMX. Basically, all the Xehanorts told YMX what would happen to him in the future (i.e. what had happened to them). When he went back in time he lost his conscious memories, but he was still unknowingly led to act out the things he was told about the future. That all culminated in KH1 to him being led to travel back in time to his younger self to tell his younger self the same things he was told, closing the perfectly repeating time loop. That was the point of DDD: to show that everything up to DDD was all part of Xehanort's plan. Only things that happen after DDD are uncertain and that's only because no one knows (consciously or unconsciously) what will happen yet, unlike the rest of the series. Hence the future is never changeable, exactly (the future is already determined), but post-DDD it is uncertain only because it is unknown to everyone involved.

To extend this to answer your issue, essentially KH1 RF knew Sora and Riku would be coming back in time because years prior (when he was YMX) he was told that that would happen, by none other than himself. As soon as the DI fell and Sora and Riku appeared from the future to enter the RoS (as the RF was told), RF traveled back and told his young self what would happen. Again, it's a time loop. He literally told himself what he had been told by himself.

MX's plan was perfect because it was unfathomably complex and unforseeable, and in any normal circumstance would not work (as Xigbar states). It did work solely because it already had worked. The plan is sort of a time loop. No one ever conceived of the plan alone, it just exists. YMX 'thought of' and acted out the plan because he was told what he would do in the future by his future selves. He just (unknowningly) repeated their actions. But his future selves only did what they did because they had been told it when they were younger. The plan has no origin, it's all just guided mimicry. The game is not clear when the whole scheme to assemble the 7 lights and 13 and darknesses was consciously established in MX's mind (it could have been prior to the end of BbS, when Xehanort was an apprentice, or after he split himself), however every choice he made was influenced by his unconscious memory of what he already had done (as his future selves).

Do you follow?

 

[flyingfishstick]

My main problem is personal. I don't like the idea that everything in the KH universe is predestined.
EDIT: You are saying that all of the Xehanorts throughout time know what is going on, at least on a subconscious level, because of the events of DDD. Xehanort's plan up to the events of DDD was set in stone from the start and had no real origin. The Xehanorts and Sora's crew are just playing their parts in a predestined time loop. If that is the case why does YX need to be reminded of his path by the RF, while the RF seems to remember full well the events of DDD back in KH1? How could this be when the RF didn't appear to know anything about his past life in KH1? His personal reports show that he didn't know a thing about the keyblade, heartless, or the existence of other worlds until he rediscovered them. Once he became a heartless his goals were completely separate from Xehanort himself (granted they play into his hands). If he knew everything from the start why would he go after a fake Kingdom Hearts created from the hearts of worlds? Why would he not know it was made of light? Is he only able to inform YX because he is a heart and exists outside the timestream and forgets everything once he takes a physical form through Riku's body?
This is kind of wacky speculation, alternatively, isn't it also possible that up until the end of DDD the entire series exists in an altered past fabricated by Xehanort? Xehanort Hearts could be nothing more than a link to his most present form so that he could basically relive his life in control of all the pieces. Unless I'm wrong the present works like an impassable wall that you can't travel beyond. This gives the Xehanorts free reign across the entire timeline. Then everything you said happens except the reason why the Xehanorts know what is going on is because the course of the entire timeline is being controlled through them simultaneously in different time periods by the most present version of Xehanort, who is essentially omniscient as far as his entire timeline goes up until the end of DDD. Basically, Xehanort hearts allow him to cheat the system and permanently change the past by giving him a live link to his past selves/any one who is infected at any point in time. We don't know the circumstances of the original timeline, but Xehanort has drastically changed it. Once again, wacky and far-fetched speculation, but Xehanort wouldn't give away all of his secrets.

 

[zaqareemalcolm]

My main problem is personal. I don't like the idea that everything in the KH universe is predestined.
EDIT: You are saying that all of the Xehanorts throughout time know what is going on, at least on a subconscious level, because of the events of DDD. Xehanort's plan up to the events of DDD was set in stone from the start and had no real origin. The Xehanorts and Sora's crew are just playing their parts in a predestined time loop. If that is the case why does YX need to be reminded of his path by the RF, while the RF seems to remember full well the events of DDD back in KH1?

He doesn't. He's just there as an anchor point for YX to travel. Also, RF visting YX is a stable time loop:his time travelling would etch what he has to do once he finishes time travelling, which includes possessing Terra then giving up his body to become RF.

How could this be when the RF didn't appear to know anything about his past life in KH1? His personal reports show that he didn't know a thing about the keyblade, heartless, or the existence of other worlds until he rediscovered them. Once he became a heartless his goals were completely separate from Xehanort himself (granted they play into his hands).

3D clearly shows that he knew and was faking his amnesia. Even before 3D came out, we know that Xehanort likes to either lie or purposely leave out information. (ie. He never said that the X-Blade was shattered into 20 pieces or that the Hearts of The Princesses of Heart were 7 of those pieces in his BBS reports. He also writes the Ansem Reports in KH1 with the persepective of Ansem The Wise, which is why he talks about meeting Mickey even though Xehanort only saw him briefly)

If he knew everything from the start why would he go after a fake Kingdom Hearts created from the hearts of worlds? Why would he not know it was made of light? Is he only able to inform YX because he is a heart and exists outside the timestream and forgets everything once he takes a physical form through Riku's body?

It is possible that that was just a ruse to set Sora or Riku (especially Riku at first, since he left a bit of himself inside him) to be vessels. Not to mention he needs to self terminate for Geezernort to return. The best way to do both is to make them think that you're an omnicidal maniac so that they'd have a reason to confront him as well as continue on their journey.

This is kind of wacky speculation, alternatively, isn't it also possible that up until the end of DDD the entire series exists in an altered past fabricated by Xehanort? Xehanort Hearts could be nothing more than a link to his most present form so that he could basically relive his life in control of all the pieces. Unless I'm wrong the present works like an impassable wall that you can't travel beyond. This gives the Xehanorts free reign across the entire timeline. Then everything you said happens except the reason why the Xehanorts know what is going on is because the course of the entire timeline is being controlled through them simultaneously in different time periods by the most present version of Xehanort, who is essentially omniscient as far as his entire timeline goes up until the end of DDD. Basically, Xehanort hearts allow him to cheat the system and permanently change the past by giving him a live link to his past selves/any one who is infected at any point in time. We don't know the circumstances of the original timeline, but Xehanort has drastically changed it. Once again, wacky and far-fetched speculation, but Xehanort wouldn't give away all of his secrets.

Doubt it, the way thtime works in KH is that only the past is predetermined. The future depends on what's going on in the Present. By 3D, the present is that neither 7 lights nor 13 darknesses have been assembled completely.

 

[Evello]

It is possible that that was just a ruse to set Sora or Riku (especially Riku at first, since he left a bit of himself inside him) to be vessels. Not to mention he needs to self terminate for Geezernort to return. The best way to do both is to make them think that you're an omnicidal maniac so that they'd have a reason to confront him as well as continue on their journey.

This is why I really didn't like DDD's story. There were far too many retcons and leaps of faith Nomura expected us to make. The way I imagined it, Xehanort gave up his body, and when he became a Heartless he sort of lost some of his initial plan. Since he was linked to all the Heartless, he sort of gave in to their desires which led him to pursue all the hearts of worlds. DDD openly contradicts virtually all of KH1, including the so-far reliable Ansem Reports, so really it's just a free-for-all now to understand what on earth Nomura thinks was actually happening.

Doubt it, the way thtime works in KH is that only the past is predetermined. The future depends on what's going on in the Present. By 3D, the present is that neither 7 lights nor 13 darknesses have been assembled completely.

Where is the evidence for this? I'm not saying it isn't true, just that it opens up the possibility for lots of paradoxes and I apparently missed whatever was supposed to clue us in to this.

 

[zaqareemalcolm]

Where is the evidence for this? I'm not saying it isn't true, just that it opens up the possibility for lots of paradoxes and I apparently missed whatever was supposed to clue us in to this.

Both Geezernort and Prettynort say this, Prettynort after Sora becomes exhausted fighting Xemnas is is being swallowed by the abyss:
Young Xehanort: I have now told you all that I know. We are all here, and what the future holds in store is beyond my sight. I will return to my own time, and grow into the man who becomes all these others.

And Geezernort after Riku defeats Prettynort:
Master Xehanort: All of this was decided. My twelve selves would welcome me here on this day, when I would return a complete person. It is the future which lies beyond my sight.


Both of them acknowledge that they don't know what will happen next because the future has yet to materialise, so as to speak.

 

[flyingfishstick]

He doesn't. He's just there as an anchor point for YX to travel. Also, RF visting YX is a stable time loop:his time travelling would etch what he has to do once he finishes time travelling, which includes possessing Terra then giving up his body to become RF.

But he does. He is the one who tells YX everything. He has to know Xehanort’s plan in its entirety. If he has to be the one to inform YX then who informs him? If YX can’t remember anything from DDD, neither should the RF.

3D clearly shows that he knew and was faking his amnesia. Even before 3D came out, we know that Xehanort likes to either lie or purposely leave out information. (ie. He never said that the X-Blade was shattered into 20 pieces or that the Hearts of The Princesses of Heart were 7 of those pieces in his BBS reports. He also writes the Ansem Reports in KH1 with the persepective of Ansem The Wise, which is why he talks about meeting Mickey even though Xehanort only saw him briefly)

It is possible that that was just a ruse to set Sora or Riku (especially Riku at first, since he left a bit of himself inside him) to be vessels. Not to mention he needs to self terminate for Geezernort to return. The best way to do both is to make them think that you're an omnicidal maniac so that they'd have a reason to confront him as well as continue on their journey.

You could be right. I’ve always preferred the idea that Ansem SoD knew nothing of his past life but was being led along Xehanort’s plan by the Xehanort Heart within him. The fact the he has amber eyes and rounded ears symbolizing the fact that it is working in his subconscious. You’ll notice everyone else infected has pointed ears. After gathering the PoH, Ansem thought he was going after the real Kingdom Hearts when really it was the Xehanort Heart tricking him into killing himself. Meanwhile, Xemnas was in on the plan from the beginning and was monitoring Ansem’s progress in HB, waiting to send out his Darknesses to clash with the lights, when Sora throws a wrench in his schemes. I used to like to think that DDD was the result of this plan failing, the third and final attempt at forging the X-Blade. I assumed that the time traveling started shortly before the game began, but now I’m not so sure. I like it this way because it makes Ansem SoD a genuine standalone villain for KHI, while still linking him to the overarching villain. At the time, as far as Ansem SoD knew, he was the overarching villain, not just half of one.

Doubt it, the way thtime works in KH is that only the past is predetermined. The future depends on what's going on in the Present. By 3D, the present is that neither 7 lights nor 13 darknesses have been assembled completely.

The past is essentially a recording directly determined by what happens in the present. The future simply doesn’t exist. You also have Ragnell’s idea where everything is predetermined. We don’t know which one is correct and it’s possible that both of them are wrong. As for being able to change the past, the Timeless River in KHII seems to suggest you can, although we don’t really know how that works or if it was even time travel at all. I was suggesting that the past is supposed to be predetermined, but by infecting his younger self with a fragment of his present heart, he found a way to cheat the system and alter the past. Assuming this holds any water, up until now we have been playing in that past.

 

[Evello]

Both Geezernort and Prettynort say this, Prettynort after Sora becomes exhausted fighting Xemnas is is being swallowed by the abyss:
Young Xehanort: I have now told you all that I know. We are all here, and what the future holds in store is beyond my sight. I will return to my own time, and grow into the man who becomes all these others.

And Geezernort after Riku defeats Prettynort:
Master Xehanort: All of this was decided. My twelve selves would welcome me here on this day, when I would return a complete person. It is the future which lies beyond my sight.


Both of them acknowledge that they don't know what will happen next because the future has yet to materialise, so as to speak.

In neither of those instances does it say that the future has not been determined, just that it is beyond Xehanort's sight. Even if the timeline is completely predetermined this would be true, since Xehanort only has memories of what happens up until DDD. I always took this as proof that everything is predestined, since he specifically says that he doesn't know the future, not that the future is in flux.

Granted, the wording is loose, so Nomura could easily swing it either way (if he even bothers to address it, which I think is unlikely), however I feel a predetermined timeline is far more likely than an undetermined one, due to the fact that Nomura went out of his way to make paradoxes impossible, which would all be undone if the past is changeable.

You could be right. I’ve always preferred the idea that Ansem SoD knew nothing of his past life but was being led along Xehanort’s plan by the Xehanort Heart within him. The fact the he has amber eyes and rounded ears symbolizing the fact that it is working in his subconscious. You’ll notice everyone else infected has pointed ears. After gathering the PoH, Ansem thought he was going after the real Kingdom Hearts when really it was the Xehanort Heart tricking him into killing himself. Meanwhile, Xemnas was in on the plan from the beginning and was monitoring Ansem’s progress in HB, waiting to send out his Darknesses to clash with the lights, when Sora throws a wrench in his schemes. I used to like to think that DDD was the result of this plan failing, the third and final attempt at forging the X-Blade. I assumed that the time traveling started shortly before the game began, but now I’m not so sure. I like it this way because it makes Ansem SoD a genuine standalone villain for KHI, while still linking him to the overarching villain. At the time, as far as Ansem SoD knew, he was the overarching villain, not just half of one.

I really wish this was true, but DDD made it pretty clear that Xehanort faked his amnesia (for what reason I have no idea). This was honestly my biggest problem with DDD; it essentially tore down the entire plots of KH1 and KH2, retconning all the villain's motivations beyond recognition and logic in the process, and turned the games into sidestories in what is now the real main KH series: BbS -> DDD -> KH3.

 

[gelandporn]

Both Geezernort and Prettynort say this, Prettynort after Sora becomes exhausted fighting Xemnas is is being swallowed by the abyss:
Young Xehanort: I have now told you all that I know. We are all here, and what the future holds in store is beyond my sight. I will return to my own time, and grow into the man who becomes all these others.

And Geezernort after Riku defeats Prettynort:
Master Xehanort: All of this was decided. My twelve selves would welcome me here on this day, when I would return a complete person. It is the future which lies beyond my sight.


Both of them acknowledge that they don't know what will happen next because the future has yet to materialise, so as to speak.

It doesn't really add up that time travel to the future is impossible, though.
If that were the case, then Young Xehanort would have only been capable of traveling to approximately the beginning of KH1.

The point at which the RF travels back to talk to YX would necessarily have to be what we construe as the "present" at the time it occurred. That means that, if travel to the "future" (ie parts of the timeline that have yet to unfold, but not necessarily the future relative to someone from the past) were impossible, then YX should have only been capable of time traveling up until that present time--ie, about the beginning of KH1. But that's not the case, he travels all the way past KH2.

That certain things are predestined in the timeline irrespective of time travel implicitly suggests that while the future isn't necessarily 100% set in stone, a future does exist, it's not simply the present flowing into the past.
And also that YX and RF had foreknowledge of certain events which hadn't occurred yet (such as Sora almost becoming the 13th member), also suggests that the future can be traveled to.

So, where does that leave us? Well, we don't have an explanation for why the future post-DDD is beyond Xehanort's knowledge. There might be something which hasn't been explained that is barring him from traveling any further into the future.

I've actually just recently started giving thought again to the laws of time travel in this series and I may make a topic within the next week or so as my attempt to work it out.

 

[zaqareemalcolm]

RF already knows what will happen. That he would do all that jazz in KH1 while his Nobody would assemble Organization XIII beta ver., before being killed at becoming Geezernort again. RF already "solidifies" his future by deciding to do and ensure that those events WILL happen and tells this to Young Xehanort, making those times accessible to him. From Young Xehanort's perspective, his future would be becoming RF and telling YX all these things, to ensure he can reach until a point where MX has not decided what to do next. As for MX, at that point in 3D, he hasn't known what will happen next (or rather, what he will do next) because anything could happen to his 13 darknesses, which it did. Once that has happened, MX not going into the future already considered determined, because that event is now in the past.

 

[ajmrowland]

Yeah, I thought that the RF should definitely see the timeline.

I do, however, think that at one point, xehanort legitimately thought he'd be able to recreate the Keyblade war without the X-blade, especially when his heartless forgets about time travel, though that might have been more for the power of darkness than anything.

 

[gelandporn]

RF already knows what will happen. That he would do all that jazz in KH1 while his Nobody would assemble Organization XIII beta ver., before being killed at becoming Geezernort again. RF already "solidifies" his future by deciding to do and ensure that those events WILL happen and tells this to Young Xehanort, making those times accessible to him. From Young Xehanort's perspective, his future would be becoming RF and telling YX all these things, to ensure he can reach until a point where MX has not decided what to do next. As for MX, at that point in 3D, he hasn't known what will happen next (or rather, what he will do next) because anything could happen to his 13 darknesses, which it did. Once that has happened, MX not going into the future already considered determined, because that event is now in the past.

I don't think you understand what I was getting at. Let me say it in more general terms:
If there is no future to travel to beyond the present, then if a person were to go back in time and meet a younger version of themselves, it would be logically impossible for the younger self to travel any further forward than the point in time from which the older self jumped back in time.

Think about it.
The future must exist in order for YX to travel beyond KH1.

 

[zaqareemalcolm]

I don't think you understand what I was getting at. Let me say it in more general terms:
If there is no future to travel to beyond the present, then if a person were to go back in time and meet a younger version of themselves, it would be logically impossible for the younger self to travel any further forward than the point in time from which the older self jumped back in time.

Think about it.
The future must exist in order for YX to travel beyond KH1.

The future is already known to have existed and be able to travel to because YX meeting the Robed Figure and being told of what would happen proves that. During RF's Time Travel, the future is still being built while he goes on to have a chat with his younger self. (However, it would seem to be arbitary for the moment. By the time RF finishes his chat, KH1 and KH2 conveniently have occured)
We can't say the same for at the end of DDD because for what we can see and know at the moment, there has been no known (Nomura may pull a "Hah, betcha never saw that one coming!") intervention made by a Nort from the future, which would occur in 3D if it did.

 

[gelandporn]

The future is already known to have existed and be able to travel to because YX meeting the Robed Figure and being told of what would happen proves that. During RF's Time Travel, the future is still being built while he goes on to have a chat with his younger self. (However, it would seem to be arbitary for the moment. By the time RF finishes his chat, KH1 and KH2 conveniently have occured)
We can't say the same for at the end of DDD because for what we can see and know at the moment, there has been no known (Nomura may pull a "Hah, betcha never saw that one coming!") intervention made by a Nort from the future, which would occur in 3D if it did.

What?
Are you actually suggesting that in order to travel to beyond KH1, time flowed concurrently in both the past that the RF traveled to and the present that he traveled from? So while he was having his conversation with YX, this allowed time in the present to move forward?

That's... really ridiculous. You're suggesting that the amount of time RF converses with YX equates to... what? Almost 2 years of time progression in the present time (from the time he left to DDD)? That's kind of a stretch.
But hey, it's not what makes it impossible. You could argue that because of some sort of complex relationship between time axes, doing something in the past dilates time in the future exponentially.

You know what does make it impossible though? The fact that, if time progressed in the present while RF was in the past... then he wouldn't have been in the present while it was happening. So what you're suggesting would mean that Xehanort's Heartless wouldn't have made an appearance at all from KH1 until DDD.