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KH2 story ruined by DDD?



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Etherealin

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Axеl;5746396 said:
The concept of Vanitas barreling after Roxas in Ven's stead is my favorite freakin' thing, I want that to be canon. If only because Roxas has more of an attitude and will not hesitate to show him one or two Keyblades to the mug.

The theory among my pals right now is that Data Riku and Riku Replica may have combined, that maybe what remained of Riku Replica took over the journal and became Data Riku from the beginning, because come on who even dies in Kingdom Hearts ever. The problem I have with this is that obviously Data Riku is more chill than Riku Replica ever was, probably even more so than Real Thing, but they still could have formed a merger pre-DDD if that sucker up there isn't Xion. Which I would also love but she's coming back anyway so it'd just be a twist on old news.

That said, I find it hard not to love Data Sora even though the plot to Coded struck me as such schlock and his characterization suffered a lot due to rushed episodes and things. It was like we'd already played through this same story three times and there wasn't enough time to sit down and explain it bit by bit to him, so all the iconic imagery and parallel events from KH1 didn't come off that iconic or significant to him.

Totally agree with all of this- should definitely happen in game. Roxas and Vanitas meeting would be very interesting and amusing. And yeah, Data-Riku is a lot calmer than Repliku- that, and I wouldn't have expected to play through Coded and it not be mentioned if they did merge, so I'm not sure. I like the idea though.
 

Sephiroth0812

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I did XD Data-Sora and Data-Riku were in some ways, for me, more likeable than the real counterparts. Their dialogue and friendship was what really kept me interested in Coded.

Heh, as they are also somewhat distinct, that stance can even be justified somewhat.

^^^^^^^^^^
havent thought of that. but that could be interesting. i mean, repliku kinda died, or whatever u call it in KH. and data riku is kinda just a book, i would rather not any data people return as characters. i wish there was no data world, and that mickey had found some other way to find out about TVA hurting. but whatever, i think this could be a way for (as much as i dont want) xion to return. she appeared as riku in days, so why not here. she took the form of soras memories of kairi, so why not riku? she took the form of those connectd to sora, so this time it could be riku. i like this

Let's call it "disappeared" because that was what essentially happened. Remember though, although in KH there exists no final death, meaning total cessation of existence, there is apparently sleep...and from that sleep you can't just wake up with a finger snap, there's more to it that hasn't yet been expanded upon.
At the end of the first Kingdom Hearts game, countless entire worlds and their population have been returned/revived and several villains as well. The concept is therefore not really new, the novum is only that it may be now extended to original characters from the "good" faction.

If we go by the actual snippets of stuff Coded showed us it was not only to learn about Terra, Aqua and Ven, but also about Ansem the Wise's data and maybe more elaboration on the series's mythology as there's the question floating if Data-Sora indeed developed a heart.

I wouldn't mind that either, but I hope it's Repliku. Everyone else is being saved, what's one more? XD

And I would love to see Ven and Roxas switch places. This needs to happen at some point.

I'd like to point out though that "everyone" is stressing it a bit, as far as we know it's primarily people connected with Sora and Xehanort going to be saved.

Lol, now that would really cause confusion then, especially if they also trade their wristbands and act completely neutral, suppressing their different personality quirks. :D

Axеl;5746396 said:
The concept of Vanitas barreling after Roxas in Ven's stead is my favorite freakin' thing, I want that to be canon. If only because Roxas has more of an attitude and will not hesitate to show him one or two Keyblades to the mug.

The theory among my pals right now is that Data Riku and Riku Replica may have combined, that maybe what remained of Riku Replica took over the journal and became Data Riku from the beginning, because come on who even dies in Kingdom Hearts ever. The problem I have with this is that obviously Data Riku is more chill than Riku Replica ever was, probably even more so than Real Thing, but they still could have formed a merger pre-DDD if that sucker up there isn't Xion. Which I would also love but she's coming back anyway so it'd just be a twist on old news.

That said, I find it hard not to love Data Sora even though the plot to Coded struck me as such schlock and his characterization suffered a lot due to rushed episodes and things. It was like we'd already played through this same story three times and there wasn't enough time to sit down and explain it bit by bit to him, so all the iconic imagery and parallel events from KH1 didn't come off that iconic or significant to him.

Except that out of all people, Vanitas (as well as Sora and Xion) would be capable of effortlessly tell Roxas and Ven apart due to him being very closely connected with Ventus.
He would most likely feel it if he has standing Roxas before him instead of Ven.
A battle between those two would be very intense though I imagine, as out of the Sora/Ventus/Roxas-Trio Roxas is the most aggressive one.

Interesting Theory I have to say despite it being a bit hard to find evidence for it.

Don't forget also that Coded was originally a cell phone game, there wasn't much room to stretch out the story.


Totally agree with all of this- should definitely happen in game. Roxas and Vanitas meeting would be very interesting and amusing. And yeah, Data-Riku is a lot calmer than Repliku- that, and I wouldn't have expected to play through Coded and it not be mentioned if they did merge, so I'm not sure. I like the idea though.

Interesting, yes, amusing, depends on the circumstances. Unlike Ven, who needs a solid reason to go all out, Roxas is very quick to anger and Vanitas with his trolling attitude is exactly the type of being to heat him up so the whole thing could descent into a very intense brawl between them quickly.
 

geist226

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The Organization strove to gain hearts of their own, but I believe their thirst to exist transcended a desire and became an obsession. That could be why they weren't concerned with ending their own lives to be restored as Somebodies (What guarantee did they have that their Heartless selves were also destroyed?). Acquiring Kingdom Hearts probably would have been a rebirth for all of them, not a restoration.

I also think of it like this: creating an artificial Kingdom Hearts as a means of rebirth as Somebodies has never been attempted before, and most of the Organization members (especially the ones remaining in KH2) are researchers at heart (no pun intended). Many of their former selves were scientists of the heart, after all. Their demise at Sora's hands would not necessarily restore them as humans, and acquiring Kingdom Hearts could grant them untold power. That was certainly Xemnas' goal, and the root of their "evil" in the game. The way they mindlessly tore through worlds converting denizens to Heartless is bad enough, but there's no telling what Xemnas (or his restored self) and the higher-ups would have done with it.
 

Axеl

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Except that out of all people, Vanitas (as well as Sora and Xion) would be capable of effortlessly tell Roxas and Ven apart due to him being very closely connected with Ventus.
He would most likely feel it if he has standing Roxas before him instead of Ven.

I see your point, but I'll believe it when I see it, actually. Nomura hasn't yet run into a reason not to alter canon in huge sweeps, and even Axel said that Sora and Roxas both gave him the same feeling, meaning it could be difficult for him to tell Ven and Roxas apart. Which isn't to say he's connected to Roxas on the same level that Vanitas is connected to Ven, but if it's dramatic and doable I think they'd take that route. There's enough in the canon to suggest to me that Ven and Roxas are really inextricable in ways, so I think even Vanitas could be duped at first.

And @Geist, I'm actually really curious about what plans Xemnas had for KH. I mean I know he talked power, the influence of hatred and negativity and such, but I can't help wondering if there wasn't some greater goal backed by research that we never saw or heard tell of.
 

KevVentus

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Ok, things are cleared up for me now.

When you think of the plot as a psuedo genocide in the name of science, it's actually very interesting.

If only it had been handled a little better
 

Axеl

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Memo to self: Do not use the "at" sign in posts, apparently that marks them for moderation?? Mods please disregard the previous post if this is the case, sorry for the trouble!

Except that out of all people, Vanitas (as well as Sora and Xion) would be capable of effortlessly tell Roxas and Ven apart due to him being very closely connected with Ventus.
He would most likely feel it if he has standing Roxas before him instead of Ven.

I see your point, but I think Roxas and Ven are connected enough that Vanitas might not be expecting this and just interpret any strangeness as a change or some result of Ven healing enough to walk around again. His personality would give him away very quickly even if his heart didn't, I just think there's enough muddled that Vanitas could be duped for long enough to make the encounter interesting. I mean for a precedent, Sora didn't recognize Roxas for who he was (even during their internal fight, as I remember), and they're twin halves of a similar nature.

And to geist, I've been curious about what Xemnas's real goal was. I mean I know he talked power, and the influence of hatred and yadda ya, but considering the Organization's roots in research and the ten years they spent getting all this together I have to wonder if there wasn't something more concrete he was working toward with Kingdom Hearts that we never saw or heard tell of.
 

KevVentus

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I still don't understand how Vanitas can return. Or if he's here for good. What role does he have left to play?
 

Axеl

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The downside to people always coming back (Maleficent) is that it feels like the effort in taking them out in the first place was wasted, or if it was someone beloved (Xion) then the emotion over their demise is invalidated. Kind of like how everyone completely lost it over Goofy and then he was totally fine. But it definitely doesn't seem like death exists in KH.

So I'm assuming Vanitas is just gonna get his troll on. Hard to say what goal he has in mind and the trailer right now doesn't make him look like much more than a glorified ghost, but as far as I've heard DDD is only a test run/dream world/fight in the forest with a fake Vader, so I dunno.
 

Love Machine

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Um... bunch of bad shit would have happened if he didn't stop the Org. So... No he pretty much just stopped the current epidemic and now there's a completely new one.

It's called irony.
 

KevVentus

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It's not necessarily irony, so much as it is any adventure saga ever told.

On the subject of people coming back, speaking of Maleficent, her role was so much less formidable in KH2. The series has a habit of running its characters into the ground.

Basically anyone from Agrabah or Olympus Colliseum.
 

Grey

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I thought that the Organization was a threat to Sora and co. because they were gathering hearts, which included taking hearts from others. They were keeping hearts captive for their own use, instead of letting the hearts simply go where they would naturally go upon liberation. That's why you fight them.
 

geist226

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Axеl;5746443 said:
And to geist, I've been curious about what Xemnas's real goal was. I mean I know he talked power, and the influence of hatred and yadda ya, but considering the Organization's roots in research and the ten years they spent getting all this together I have to wonder if there wasn't something more concrete he was working toward with Kingdom Hearts that we never saw or heard tell of.

Yeah, I don't know. "Rage of the Keyblade" was a buzzword throughout the game; maybe Xemnas thought that being reborn via Kingdom Hearts would make him powerful enough to become a full-fledged Keyblade Master. He and the higher-ups of OXIII definitely seemed to have an obsession with it that went beyond recognizing it as their source of hearts.

Totally conjecture on my part. He may have been planning all along to kill off his lieutenants and take all of Kingdom Hearts' power for himself. I wouldn't put it past him. The full might of Kingdom Hearts might have enabled him to reshape the universe as he wished, just as his predecessor Master Xehanort sought to.
 

Axеl

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Far be it from me to be suspicious of the most high and glorious Superior, but Xemnas did not exactly mourn the loss of, oh I don't know--OVER HALF his men. It was pretty much business as usual no matter who got a Keyblade in the schnozz along the way.

Seeking out a Keyblade? I like. Conjecture, yes, and MX didn't really seem too concerned with his own ability to wield the Keyblade beyond the convenience of it, but yeah considering the people warring in Xemnas's head that entire time it may have been the first step towards invoking a similar outcome.
 

Etherealin

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I'd like to point out though that "everyone" is stressing it a bit, as far as we know it's primarily people connected with Sora and Xehanort going to be saved.

I can hope, right? XD And with regards to Vanitas being able to tell Ven and Roxas apart due to their connection, that's a really good idea- I hadn't thought of that. I'd like to see his reaction to Sora, too.

And Vanitas returning: surely he has to come back anyway in order to heal Ven, considering his heart can't function without the dark half, right?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Axеl;5746443 said:
I see your point, but I think Roxas and Ven are connected enough that Vanitas might not be expecting this and just interpret any strangeness as a change or some result of Ven healing enough to walk around again. His personality would give him away very quickly even if his heart didn't, I just think there's enough muddled that Vanitas could be duped for long enough to make the encounter interesting. I mean for a precedent, Sora didn't recognize Roxas for who he was (even during their internal fight, as I remember), and they're twin halves of a similar nature.

And to geist, I've been curious about what Xemnas's real goal was. I mean I know he talked power, and the influence of hatred and yadda ya, but considering the Organization's roots in research and the ten years they spent getting all this together I have to wonder if there wasn't something more concrete he was working toward with Kingdom Hearts that we never saw or heard tell of.

In the end it is all theoretical "what if"-speaking anyways, it would certainly depend on the circumstances and how well Roxas could "act" as Ventus since Vanitas is observant and by no means an idiot in that department (that's Sora's role ;P).
That only shows that Sora is a bit slow sometimes and don't recognizes things always that fast (see also the Mulan-Ping bit etc.). It doesn't mean at all that Sora is dumb, just a little slower. Vanitas certainly doesn't come over like that.
After Riku pointed out to Sora who Roxas is he immediately expressed an desire to meet him in person, still not realizing that the blonde with two keyblades he fought earlier was that person.

We know that Xemnas had a hidden agenda. As stated in his own secret reports he wanted KH to become a higher being (god-like) and that all his true ambitions would begin there. What these ambitions were was never truly elaborated upon, yet he made some remarks regarding his goals when speaking with Ansem the Wise in KH2.
He used the Chamber of Repose to apparently regain memories from both beings he originally came from (the memories from the time as Ansem's apprentice he kept apparently), meaning he had parts of the memories of both Master Xehanort and Terra.
On top of this however comes as well of course his obsession with searching for the Chamber of Waking in Castle Oblivion, if he knew what exactly is in that chamber and why he wanted to find it so badly is also still open to speculation.
In it's entirety though, Xemnas's own agenda remains a bit shady.

I still don't understand how Vanitas can return. Or if he's here for good. What role does he have left to play?

We have to look at things in order:
First, we only saw Vanitas as a sort of "specter" in the Realm of Sleep up to now. As seen with Xemnas and Ansem SoD apparently beings who get destroyed and fade away from the Realm of Light can be encountered in the Realm of Sleep providing something of them still exists. Vanitas got destroyed at the end of BBS by Ven so him being there is somewhat plausible.
That doesn't automatically mean a full return of Vanitas in the Realm of Light as a physical existence though, we'll have to wait and see.

As for his role, are you serious you can't think of that?
Xehanort is obsessed with the X-blade because it's the most powerful weapon and grants direct access to the true Kingdom Hearts.
Vanitas has the only known pure heart of darkness in existence, he is an important "ingredient" for the X-blade.
Not to mention his potential was wasted in BBS and his character has still room to grow.

Axеl;5746455 said:
The downside to people always coming back (Maleficent) is that it feels like the effort in taking them out in the first place was wasted, or if it was someone beloved (Xion) then the emotion over their demise is invalidated. Kind of like how everyone completely lost it over Goofy and then he was totally fine. But it definitely doesn't seem like death exists in KH.

So I'm assuming Vanitas is just gonna get his troll on. Hard to say what goal he has in mind and the trailer right now doesn't make him look like much more than a glorified ghost, but as far as I've heard DDD is only a test run/dream world/fight in the forest with a fake Vader, so I dunno.

With villains coming back it is often so that one remains in a half-satisfied mood only since their scheme could be thwarted but they themselves not be truly defeated.

As for allies/good characters. That really depends on the attitude of the viewer/reader in question because a sacrifice can be still meaningful even if it is not permanent. Sora himself is the best example since he got restored mere minutes after his sacrifice and you still have people discussing about the emotional impact on it.
The whole action happening itself already gives it meaning. Like Riku destroying the Destiny Islands in KH1, they got restored at the end of KH1 yet the action itself haunted Riku for way longer than that.

That part with Goofy I didn't take that much seriously to be honest. I always assumed that he was only comatose/unconsious. Still, the impact and the reactions of Mickey, Donald and Sora did act to an emotional scene which I could appreciate despite knowing Goofy is not gone for good (they won't off one of the central Disney characters).

I thought that the Organization was a threat to Sora and co. because they were gathering hearts, which included taking hearts from others. They were keeping hearts captive for their own use, instead of letting the hearts simply go where they would naturally go upon liberation. That's why you fight them.

That thought is correct. The Organization was capturing hearts en masse, practically enslaving them.
Their further crimes include unleashing hordes of heartless into worlds, creating new ones often, also by manipulating and attacking innocent people and generally screwing up the worlds.
Riku pointed that out correctly and in the end they got what they deserved for causing so much misery.
No deliberately painting Sora suddenly as a bad guy or even racist and glorifying those bastards as Dracos in Leather pants (one might forgive me that one reference to TvTropes) will change that.

Axеl;5746501 said:
Far be it from me to be suspicious of the most high and glorious Superior, but Xemnas did not exactly mourn the loss of, oh I don't know--OVER HALF his men. It was pretty much business as usual no matter who got a Keyblade in the schnozz along the way.

Seeking out a Keyblade? I like. Conjecture, yes, and MX didn't really seem too concerned with his own ability to wield the Keyblade beyond the convenience of it, but yeah considering the people warring in Xemnas's head that entire time it may have been the first step towards invoking a similar outcome.

Xemnas didn't give one damn shit about any of the other members, if his goal was at hand and there would be still members left he might even have killed off the remainders himself.
As shown in KH2 the only emotions he was apparently capable of understanding were hate and rage.
The only thing he seemed to genuinely care for was his own Kingdom Hearts and his hidden agenda, whatever that all meant since him becoming a god-like figure was apparently only the first step going by his statement from Days.
 
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