Mark of Mastery/BBS Vol. 2/DDD/Braig/ ?

[Sign]

Yea, i think Ven had the worst storyline of the three. He really didn;t have any excitinjg boss fights. I think that was a huge flaw in his storyline. The only person he fought who wasn't Disney or Generic Inversed was Vanitas. That's it. It was really diappointing. And yea, Sora hasd beaten more, but i mean if you put Ventus in those situations then he could probably do it too. I mean, if you really wanna get technical, Sora had Donald and Goofy, while Ven was alone most of the time.

In some ways, Ven kind of has his own little spinoff separate from the other scenarios which are more Terra-centric.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

See...that's why I don't like these "this one this stronger than that one"-issues.

Sora way stronger than Ven? Not even close, both are more likely even matched, as I already said, Ven excels in the agility and speed department, while Sora can pack a bigger punch and has better defense.

Sora more experience than Ven? LMAO...at first Ventus trained for a time under Master Xehanort and then for four years with Eraqus, Terra and Aqua.

Rinney, all those guys you mentioned Sora didn't defeat alone, he always had help, while Ventus defeated nearly every boss on his own except Metamorphosis (together with Stitch).
Maleficent is no pushover either as is Captain Hook.

As for Roxas...LOL, I really burst out in laughter with this...Sora didn't defeat Roxas, he got his ass handed to him by Roxas...the dual-wielding nobody only lost because Sora had "protagonist-bonus" and SIS (Story-induced-stupidity) was needed.
If you recount correctly Sora was beaten, Roxas just made the error to gloat too much about his victory and became overconfident.

Anyways...I do not think this "debate" really leads anywhere because it can't really be compared...Terra and Aqua might be still above Sora, while he and Ven are about evenly matched.
Still, as I also said before...there are many factors which decide the outcome of a fight, judging by comparing other fights doesn't give a clear picture.

 

[chenoehii]

See...that's why I don't like these "this one this stronger than that one"-issues.

Sora way stronger than Ven? Not even close, both are more likely even matched, as I already said, Ven excels in the agility and speed department, while Sora can pack a bigger punch and has better defense.

Sora more experience than Ven? LMAO...at first Ventus trained for a time under Master Xehanort and then for four years with Eraqus, Terra and Aqua.

Rinney, all those guys you mentioned Sora didn't defeat alone, he always had help, while Ventus defeated nearly every boss on his own except Metamorphosis (together with Stitch).
Maleficent is no pushover either as is Captain Hook.

As for Roxas...LOL, I really burst out in laughter with this...Sora didn't defeat Roxas, he got his ass handed to him by Roxas...the dual-wielding nobody only lost because Sora had "protagonist-bonus" and SIS (Story-induced-stupidity) was needed.
If you recount correctly Sora was beaten, Roxas just made the error to gloat too much about his victory and became overconfident.

Anyways...I do not think this "debate" really leads anywhere because it can't really be compared...Terra and Aqua might be still above Sora, while he and Ven are about evenly matched.
Still, as I also said before...there are many factors which decide the outcome of a fight, judging by comparing other fights doesn't give a clear picture.

o.o Wtf? Lighten up..

He's fought more people than Ventus. That's just a fact. And the fact that Sora didn't train and can still defeat even the strongest enemies speaks volumes..at least to me. I'm just saying I think he has more experience in battles. And back when he was training under MX he was such a pansy he wouldn't even fight those neoshadows.. Not that that has anything to do with this, just saying.

Donald and Goofy...don't really add up to much help.... It's not like having another Keyblade wielder by your side.

Sora did beat Roxas.. he almost lost but he was able to summon his Keyblade and knock Roxas down..

This does matter when you compare Riku's strength to Sora's, it's all to see who would be more likely to win the physical fight in the MoME, that is if they do fight.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

o.o Wtf? Lighten up..

He's fought more people than Ventus. That's just a fact. And the fact that Sora didn't train and can still defeat even the strongest enemies speaks volumes..at least to me. I'm just saying I think he has more experience in battles. And back when he was training under MX he was such a pansy he wouldn't even fight those neoshadows.. Not that that has anything to do with this, just saying.

Donald and Goofy...don't really add up to much help.... It's not like having another Keyblade wielder by your side.

Sora did beat Roxas.. he almost lost but he was able to summon his Keyblade and knock Roxas down..

This does matter when you compare Riku's strength to Sora's, it's all to see who would be more likely to win the physical fight in the MoME, that is if they do fight.

I'm pretty chilled about the issue actually.

Depends on what "more people" means...just heartless and nobodies? Bosses? That's pretty easy because Sora simply was in more games.
That Sora has more experience in the open field is a fact that can't really be debated, but that's what puts him on par with the ones who were sufficiently trained, he makes up his lack of proper training with battle-experience.
That does however not indicate automatically that he's stronger.
I wouldn't necessarily call Ven a pansy back then, as like I said, in every battle one has to pay attention to the circumstances.
First, we don't know how long Ventus trained with MX.
Second, this takes place four years before BBS, where Ven was still a kid between 9 and 11 years old, not already a teen like Sora in KH 1.
Third, Sora is used to fight heartless because they're common during the time...four years before BBS and in BBS itself heartless are a very rare sight.

Lol, that's the standard answer of those who think of Sora as the uber-strong, no offense. They were there nonetheless. And in KH 2 both Sora and Riku did get quite some problems against Xemnas...who has not the full power of a keyblade wielder like Master Xehanort.
Also, Ansem SoD did not really get defeated, he was just weakened...it was the light of KH that finally defeated him.

Yeah, he did beat him in the end for plot-reasons and because he's the main protagonist...and because Roxas made an error...in actual strength however Roxas was superior.
Another good example of circumstances and state of mind of one fighter deciding the battle.

What physical fight in the MoM? This is Yen Sid holding the exam, not Eraqus...we don't even know if such a fight will take place.

 

[noheartx]

o.o Wtf? Lighten up..

He's fought more people than Ventus. That's just a fact. And the fact that Sora didn't train and can still defeat even the strongest enemies speaks volumes..at least to me. I'm just saying I think he has more experience in battles. And back when he was training under MX he was such a pansy he wouldn't even fight those neoshadows.. Not that that has anything to do with this, just saying.

Sora did actually train, remember he fought with his friends on Destiny Island like all the time. Of course it was shoddy training, but training none-the-less.

Donald and Goofy...don't really add up to much help.... It's not like having another Keyblade wielder by your side.

Ventus only had another keyblad weilder by his side like once..so thats a moot point. Donald and Goofy, plus other Disney allies helped Sora throughout the entire game, and while you may say they didn't help a lot, i have two words for you. Limit Attacks.

Sora did beat Roxas.. he almost lost but he was able to summon his Keyblade and knock Roxas down..

By a fluke. Like Seph said, Roxas has much more skill than Sora does, but Roxas was unaware that Sora would be able to call the keyblade back, and therefore was caught off guard. Sora did win the fight, but had Roxas not toyed with him and just finished him off, Roxas would have won.

This does matter when you compare Riku's strength to Sora's, it's all to see who would be more likely to win the physical fight in the MoME, that is if they do fight.

I still don't believe they're going to fight. It wouldn't make sense.

 

[Radar]

When Sora and Roxas fought near the end ok KH2, Roxas still had not completely accepted Sora, that is why that struggle scene is shown?

I still don't understand why Sora did not get his body back until the end of the game, when Roxas had allready joined with him at the beginning. So where is Sora's body at this time?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

When Sora and Roxas fought near the end ok KH2, Roxas still had not completely accepted Sora, that is why that struggle scene is shown?

I still don't understand why Sora did not get his body back until the end of the game, when Roxas had allready joined with him at the beginning. So where is Sora's body at this time?

That was one reason, the other ones were that Roxas still wanted to be on his own...as he was forcefully integrated into Sora...he didn't want it and also Axel's "death"(disappearance), which actually awoke Roxas's mind and own "essence" inside Sora...he was furious so to say.
After fighting Sora he accepted it...and Sora for that matter...(well he did not have any other choice anyways...)

But Sora did get his "true" body back when he came out of the pod after Roxas was integrated into him.
The fight between Roxas and Sora took place inside Sora's heart.

 

[noheartx]

That was one reason, the other ones were that Roxas still wanted to be on his own...as he was forcefully integrated into Sora...he didn't want it and also Axel's "death"(disappearance), which actually awoke Roxas's mind and own "essence" inside Sora...he was furious so to say.
After fighting Sora he accepted it...and Sora for that matter...(well he did not have any other choice anyways...)

But Sora did get his "true" body back when he came out of the pod after Roxas was integrated into him.
The fight between Roxas and Sora took place inside Sora's heart.

Just like the fight between Vanitas and Ventus. Its pretty cool how theyve fought twice, even though its different people.

 

[chenoehii]

I'm pretty chilled about the issue actually.

Depends on what "more people" means...just heartless and nobodies? Bosses? That's pretty easy because Sora simply was in more games.
That Sora has more experience in the open field is a fact that can't really be debated, but that's what puts him on par with the ones who were sufficiently trained, he makes up his lack of proper training with battle-experience.
That does however not indicate automatically that he's stronger.
I wouldn't necessarily call Ven a pansy back then, as like I said, in every battle one has to pay attention to the circumstances.
First, we don't know how long Ventus trained with MX.
Second, this takes place four years before BBS, where Ven was still a kid between 9 and 11 years old, not already a teen like Sora in KH 1.
Third, Sora is used to fight heartless because they're common during the time...four years before BBS and in BBS itself heartless are a very rare sight.

Lol, that's the standard answer of those who think of Sora as the uber-strong, no offense. They were there nonetheless. And in KH 2 both Sora and Riku did get quite some problems against Xemnas...who has not the full power of a keyblade wielder like Master Xehanort.
Also, Ansem SoD did not really get defeated, he was just weakened...it was the light of KH that finally defeated him.

Yeah, he did beat him in the end for plot-reasons and because he's the main protagonist...and because Roxas made an error...in actual strength however Roxas was superior.
Another good example of circumstances and state of mind of one fighter deciding the battle.

What physical fight in the MoM? This is Yen Sid holding the exam, not Eraqus...we don't even know if such a fight will take place.

I agree with the experience in battles makes up for no training, but I still think Sora is stronger. For example: Ven only defeated Vanitas the last time they fought, until then he couldn't beat him. But Sora's taken on people stronger or as strong as Vanitas. (shrugs) It's just my personal opinion though. There isn't a real way to judge someone's strength, but using some facts you can at least speculate.

lol I don't think Sora is uber strong(xD), there's no way he could defeat MX.. at least not yet. He's especially not as strong as Aqua or Terra. I just don't agree with implying that Sora couldn't have defeated his enemies without their help. He didn't have their help in the first fight with Xemnas did he? That wasn't as serious of a fight, but still. It's Xemnas.

We know that Roxas was awakened by Axel's death, and that's how he was able to force himself and Sora into their own Dive to the Heart. To say Sora is stronger than Roxas, or that Roxas is stronger than Sora, is false considering that they are one in the same. I'm just saying that Sora won the fight simply because he beat Roxas in that particular fight.

I know there may not be a fight, but if there is a physical fight I wonder who would win: Riku or Sora?

 

[Jelai]

Well here's the thing. I completely agree with you that Saix has something to do with Xehanort. Something that hasnt even been mentioned in this thread yet is the fact that Saix was turned into a Nobody first. So maybe that's where the experimentation process happened/. Maybe Xehanort saw that Isa had more darkness in his heart than LEa did, so he picked him for the experiment. Lea is then kicked out or whatever, and Isa is turned into a Nobody. Then, at a later date they do the same to Axel, except he rejects the darkness, hence why he doesn't have the Xehanort like features.

Honestly, I think that Xehanort might have an inkling about some X-blade knowledge, so he tried to use Isa and Lea in his experiment in order to forge another X-blade, but it failed, hense the X-scar on Isa (who could probably have more darkness in his heart than Lea).

I even wrote an essay on this (a bit of a warning though: said essay is kind of filled with some crack-induced insanity and LULz...it's also my first time ever of forming a KH theory, so take it with a grain of rice): ✈ Distant Worlds ✈ - This HUGE plot hole in Kingdom Hearts regarding Xemnas

 

[noheartx]

Honestly, I think that Xehanort might have an inkling about some X-blade knowledge, so he tried to use Isa and Lea in his experiment in order to forge another X-blade, but it failed, hense the X-scar on Isa (who could probably have more darkness in his heart than Lea).

I even wrote an essay on this (a bit of a warning though: said essay is kind of filled with some crack-induced insanity and LULz...it's also my first time ever of forming a KH theory, so take it with a grain of rice): ✈ Distant Worlds ✈ - This HUGE plot hole in Kingdom Hearts regarding Xemnas

I really don't think the x-shaped scar means anything...i mean neither Ven nor Van have one, and they did forge the x-blade. As for AX knowing about it, that's highly unlikely. Not only did he have no memories, but even if he did, he would know you need a heart of pure light and a heart of pure darkness. Lea and Isa didn;t have that.

 

[SoraKing3]

I really don't think the x-shaped scar means anything...i mean neither Ven nor Van have one, and they did forge the x-blade. As for AX knowing about it, that's highly unlikely. Not only did he have no memories, but even if he did, he would know you need a heart of pure light and a heart of pure darkness. Lea and Isa didn;t have that.

If it's there...it means something. When Braig first appeared in KH2, his scars probably meant nothing to some people, but when BBS came out it was shown that they had some significance. Why would Nomura give Saix a scar, let alone a X-shaped scar, without it having significance? You have to think about that.

To me, everything points out to Isa being used for an X-Blade, or something along those lines.
The X-Shaped scar, his reaction to Kingdom Hearts.

Btw Jelai awesome theories..except maybe the last one, lol.

 

[noheartx]

Isa can't be used for the X-blade. He's not a being of pure darkness or pure light. it doesn't matter how many X-shaped scars he has. And braig's scars don't really mean anything, they were just given to him be Terra. They don't hold symbolism for something. Neither do Eraqus', they were just given to him by Xehanort.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I agree with the experience in battles makes up for no training, but I still think Sora is stronger. For example: Ven only defeated Vanitas the last time they fought, until then he couldn't beat him. But Sora's taken on people stronger or as strong as Vanitas. (shrugs) It's just my personal opinion though. There isn't a real way to judge someone's strength, but using some facts you can at least speculate.

You think, but you don't know...that's the point. ^__^
People stronger or as strong as Vanitas? There aren't much people Sora fought who are stronger than Vanitas though...or you're quite underestimating Vanitas's strength...and especially his superhuman endurance. Even Aqua only barely beat him in Radiant Garden and Neverland.
Only people I see that might be stronger than Vanitas are Saix, Ansem SoD, Xemnas and Sephiroth...and in all fights against the first three it wasn't an one vs one and while impressed by Sora's skill, Sephiroth actually just played around and wasn't really harmed.

Indeed, it's just personal opinion...so we might as well agree to disagree on this point and let it slide.

We know that Roxas was awakened by Axel's death, and that's how he was able to force himself and Sora into their own Dive to the Heart. To say Sora is stronger than Roxas, or that Roxas is stronger than Sora, is false considering that they are one in the same. I'm just saying that Sora won the fight simply because he beat Roxas in that particular fight.

I know there may not be a fight, but if there is a physical fight I wonder who would win: Riku or Sora?

Exactly that is what is not false, as Roxas and Sora are not one in the same, Axel is also not the same than Lea, or Zexion is not the same than Ienzo.
Concerning Roxas there's even another catch because he's a special case, a hybrid of Sora and Ven.
Again, Sora did not win that fight by his own strength or he won in battle...he won because Roxas messed up...it was a circumstantial victory, not because of superiority.

Totally honest? We had three times Sora vs. Riku in KH 1, 4 or 5 times in CoM, 1 times in KH 2 and again 2 or 3 times in Re:Coded...I can clearly say I have enough of Sora vs Riku...they're supposed to work together now, not fight again.

To me, everything points out to Isa being used for an X-Blade, or something along those lines.
The X-Shaped scar, his reaction to Kingdom Hearts.

Sorry, but "forging the x-blade" gets thrown around here way too often...Sora and Riku forging it, and now Isa and Lea?
People seem to always forget that forging this weapon isn't that easy...you need two pure hearts (light & dark) as base material and these hearts need to be at equal strength.
While Saix's scar really might have some meaning, I won't deny that...it surely means not this.
The x-blade isn't something one forges just on the fly...not to mention that it can only be forged at the keyblade graveyard...and not much people know that this world exists.

 

[chenoehii]

You think, but you don't know...that's the point. ^__^
People stronger or as strong as Vanitas? There aren't much people Sora fought who are stronger than Vanitas though...or you're quite underestimating Vanitas's strength...and especially his superhuman endurance. Even Aqua only barely beat him in Radiant Garden and Neverland.
Only people I see that might be stronger than Vanitas are Saix, Ansem SoD, Xemnas and Sephiroth...and in all fights against the first three it wasn't an one vs one and while impressed by Sora's skill, Sephiroth actually just played around and wasn't really harmed.

Indeed, it's just personal opinion...so we might as well agree to disagree on this point and let it slide.



Exactly that is what is not false, as Roxas and Sora are not one in the same, Axel is also not the same than Lea, or Zexion is not the same than Ienzo.
Concerning Roxas there's even another catch because he's a special case, a hybrid of Sora and Ven.
Again, Sora did not win that fight by his own strength or he won in battle...he won because Roxas messed up...it was a circumstantial victory, not because of superiority.

Totally honest? We had three times Sora vs. Riku in KH 1, 4 or 5 times in CoM, 1 times in KH 2 and again 2 or 3 times in Re:Coded...I can clearly say I have enough of Sora vs Riku...they're supposed to work together now, not fight again.



Sorry, but "forging the x-blade" gets thrown around here way too often...Sora and Riku forging it, and now Isa and Lea?
People seem to always forget that forging this weapon isn't that easy...you need two pure hearts (light & dark) as base material and these hearts need to be at equal strength.
While Saix's scar really might have some meaning, I won't deny that...it surely means not this.
The x-blade isn't something one forges just on the fly...not to mention that it can only be forged at the keyblade graveyard...and not much people know that this world exists.

xP

I mean their skill level is practically the same, if not the same. If Roxas was completely different than Sora than he wouldn't wield the Keyblade.. None of the other nobodies wield their old weapons(example, Braig's guns are different than Xigbar's, Xaldin's lances are not the same), so it's pretty natural to think one is as strong as the other.

We'll agree to disagree that Roxas is stronger than Sora because he almost won the fight ^.-

The fight wouldn't be a "I wanna kill you fight", just a test to see their strength of heart. There probably won't be one between them... I just wanna get the Exam over with and not drag it out a third or half of the game in some quest. He said DDD only focuses on part of it...soo..........shame on Nomura for being confusing xP

The pointed ears, and gold eyes, are in fact signs of Xehanort's(no matter what form) influence. The X-shaped scar seems like it has something to do with him as well.. Why else would it be an X? We know how important the letter x was to MX, and the rest. If it didn't have anything to do with him than why isn't it a normal scar, or no scar at all?

 

[JM0c]

Axel had dealt with the Riku Replica in Castle Oblivion, so in some way he was familiar with Riku to an extent. At the very least, Axel understood that Riku was very fluent with darkness. After the events that occurred at Castle Oblivion, the Organization was determined to eliminate Riku. DiZ knew the Organization would start looking for Riku which is why he gave Riku and Mickey Organization Coats in order to conceal their existences from detection. Since the Organization was unable to locate Riku, the Organization probably figured that Riku was using something to conceal his presence. When Axel found out the the impostor was a young person with strong combat abilities, dark powers, and an Organization coat, he probably put two and two together. Not to mention, the impostor frequented places such as Castle Oblivion, and Riku was one of the few people outside of the Organization who was aware of the castle's existence. Unlike Sora, Axel doesn't need someone to directly tell him something that should be obvious.



I've never been convinced about Nobodies not aging... Ienzo-Zexion, Isa-Saix, Lea-Axel... Maybe the "original composition" (actual vessel) for Nobodies don't age, but appearance-wise, I think they do "age". What I mean by this is that maybe if Axel was to become whole again, he would revert back to the age he was back when he lost his heart.

I've Kinda be one to go with the nobodies not aging. There is no evidence either way and as a leap of faith I think it makes for a better story that way.

And with the yellow eyes, I was under the impression it was a side effect of using the corridors of darkness. I think Lea and Isa's fall to nobodies had to be quite different from the rest of the experience. In my mind with the breaking up of radiant garden they fell in with Xehanort's group and things led to another. I don't know what else to say at this moment. I got a lot of theory of how it works but nothings confirmed so I am no better than anyone els.e

 

[Radar]

I am sure Saix's scar has some signifigance, and there is undoubtly something that happened between Isa and Lea. For some reason I think Lea lost his heart in order to help out Isa somehow. I dont know about the x-blade theory. It could be possible I suppose, as there are alot of unknowns in kh, but Im hoping more light will be shed on it in v2.

 

[flurryflames]

xP

I mean their skill level is practically the same, if not the same. If Roxas was completely different than Sora than he wouldn't wield the Keyblade.. None of the other nobodies wield their old weapons(example, Braig's guns are different than Xigbar's, Xaldin's lances are not the same), so it's pretty natural to think one is as strong as the other.

We'll agree to disagree that Roxas is stronger than Sora because he almost won the fight ^.-

The fight wouldn't be a "I wanna kill you fight", just a test to see their strength of heart. There probably won't be one between them... I just wanna get the Exam over with and not drag it out a third or half of the game in some quest. He said DDD only focuses on part of it...soo..........shame on Nomura for being confusing xP

The pointed ears, and gold eyes, are in fact signs of Xehanort's(no matter what form) influence. The X-shaped scar seems like it has something to do with him as well.. Why else would it be an X? We know how important the letter x was to MX, and the rest. If it didn't have anything to do with him than why isn't it a normal scar, or no scar at all?

I wouldn't argue the fact that Sora is stronger than Ven, but it is true he may be since Sora also has Ven's heart inside him. So in a way Sora may been a little weaker than Ven. So Sora has the combination of his power as well. Xigbar also commented how the key blade wielders were stronger than Sora or something to do along those lines.

Yeah he pulled a Jedi move to snatch back his keyblade. XD It is ironic because Riku needed the help of Xeonart's heartless to beat Roxas. So to compare to who is stronger in that situation is much like a double edged sword, but in my opinion I believe that Sora would be stronger than Riku.

I have never doubted that the X scar had no symbolic meaning at all. I agree. It couldn't be pure coincidence and if it was wouldn't Saix not have been darker in the first place? It wouldn't be too much of a coincidence that Lea and Isa were fighting and Lea accidently slashed him with his weapons. Something changed Isa's personality and I have this hunch it could be MX or Xeohanart influence. It might have been something to do with Lea. Perhaps Isa had to make a choice to try to save him and failed. Or he paid the price and the results showed up on his face as a reminder. The X blade theory still is in my mind though. *shrugs* Now with the MX features. I have the final Mix wall scroll and everytime I look at it I see more of Xeohanart features in Saix and Xigbar. Let's connect the dots, MX wears a black cloak at time, has the same boots, and three of the organization members have demonic ears and the same yellow eye color. Briag is associated with MX for unknown reasons, and continues to follow in his footsteps to some stant. Knows that Terra has darkness inside him it is almost like he can sense it.

Not to mention all the members have the "X" derived in their name. Saix is extremely loyal to Xenmas, wants him to have his goal, have secret meetings with him and almost seems obsessed with hearts than Xenmas well towards the end.

 

[noheartx]

I am sure Saix's scar has some signifigance, and there is undoubtly something that happened between Isa and Lea. For some reason I think Lea lost his heart in order to help out Isa somehow. I dont know about the x-blade theory. It could be possible I suppose, as there are alot of unknowns in kh, but Im hoping more light will be shed on it in v2.

That wouldnt really make sense, because Isa became a Nobody first. But, Lea may have wanted to be with his friend so badly that he gave himself to darkness after the fact.

 

[Radar]

That wouldnt really make sense, because Isa became a Nobody first. But, Lea may have wanted to be with his friend so badly that he gave himself to darkness after the fact.

That seems likely. Poor lea didnt want to be alone awwww/