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Miracles and God



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Ven-Dono

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Okay, so I made a new thread for this because I felt it was off topic in other threads. I'm sure I'm not original in thinking this, but that's why I want to hear the answers that arrive.

Miracles. They are "good"* things. Us humans can't explain how they happened without some higher power. So God.

Horrible events. Such as Genocides and natural events; bad things. If humans can't explain why they happened, or even if they can, that doesn't mean God did it. Because he doesn't mess with free will/ is a benevolent God. If they are one of those that give equal credit to God for all events, then there are rationalizations such as 'God did this so that in the future good events will happen because of the butterfly effect'.

For one, this sounds crazy to me. And two, how can God invoke a miracle without messing with freewill? Three, if you are one of those rationalizers (or not), please correct me. I would like to see these things I wrote proven wrong. It would make me a little more satisfied to see that one of the most prominent religions in the world isn't so fallacious.


* Quotations are there because a miracle such as a baby being miraculously saved from near death, could mean the death of a whole race if that baby grew up to be a man such as Hitler. Or a miracle to a poor family that are very devout Christians receiving 1,000,000 dollars could mean that the check was given to them by a drunk wealthy man that needed that money badly. Or maybe Jesus' miracle of rising from the dead could have driven several people mad, making them commit suicide or turn them into sociopaths in the end.
 

Lumen et ignem

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Well, I'm not really into religion much but in that case I think that's where fate comes in. Possibly God has something to do with it or the events could be complete accidents. Really it just depends on how you look at things. If you see it as God changing things or as a pre-determined fate taking something that isn't supposed to happen and changing it to something that is supposed to happen. But seeing how fate isn't an actual being that can also lead back to God.
 

The Fishman

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Okay, so I made a new thread for this because I felt it was off topic in other threads. I'm sure I'm not original in thinking this, but that's why I want to hear the answers that arrive.

Miracles. They are "good"* things. Us humans can't explain how they happened without some higher power. So God.

Horrible events. Such as Genocides and natural events; bad things. If humans can't explain why they happened, or even if they can, that doesn't mean God did it. Because he doesn't mess with free will/ is a benevolent God. If they are one of those that give equal credit to God for all events, then there are rationalizations such as 'God did this so that in the future good events will happen because of the butterfly effect'.

For one, this sounds crazy to me. And two, how can God invoke a miracle without messing with freewill? Three, if you are one of those rationalizers (or not), please correct me. I would like to see these things I wrote proven wrong. It would make me a little more satisfied to see that one of the most prominent religions in the world isn't so fallacious.


* Quotations are there because a miracle such as a baby being miraculously saved from near death, could mean the death of a whole race if that baby grew up to be a man such as Hitler. Or a miracle to a poor family that are very devout Christians receiving 1,000,000 dollars could mean that the check was given to them by a drunk wealthy man that needed that money badly. Or maybe Jesus' miracle of rising from the dead could have driven several people mad, making them commit suicide or turn them into sociopaths in the end.

God doesn't mess with free will when a miracle happens. He wants to reveal himself to us to show us the way and truth. He knows that some people will believe and some will not believe. Same with good and bad things. Good things and bad things are a consequence of our actions. Bad things are the consequences of our sin, and good things that happen also come from our actions. If you can tell, I'm not a good explainer, but I went through a non-believing stage and got out of it by trying to find the answers and seek help. What really got me back into my faith was the Apologetics class that I had to take in school. Almost every argument against the faith was refuted, allowing me to see the truth because I had an open heart to the info.

I wouldn't follow or not follow a religion based on the leaders. I will be one to say that the cardinals and even the pope isn't perfect and do make mistakes, but you should go beyond those people and search in the faith.

But to get back to your question, God doesn't directly interfere in our world but indirectly through miracles and apparitions through Mary. If God directly interfered in our world, there would be chaos.

Again, I'm not a good explainer but I tried. If you have more specific questions, I'll try to answer them.
 

Raun

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God doesn't have to mess with free will to invoke a miracle. Remember that there are people who follow God and do what they can to do his works. Many times, miracles can happen because God sends his people to do them. He doesn't force them, but when God tells them something and they do it, it can make a miracle.
 

Forever Atlas

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Expect a 300,000 word essay about this when I get the time. (if you actually count or have a word processor cout the amount of words then you're an idiot.)
 

The Fishman

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Expect a 300,000 word essay about this when I get the time. (if you actually count or have a word processor cout the amount of words then you're an idiot.)

that should suffice to explain,lol
you seem to be a better explainer than me in this part of the forum anyway
 

Ven-Dono

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Expect a 300,000 word essay about this when I get the time. (if you actually count or have a word processor cout the amount of words then you're an idiot.)

Please. No huge wall of text. I doubt you need 300,000 words to explain something so simple. But if you do, fine, I'll read it.

If God directly interfered in our world, there would be chaos.

Oh really?
It wouldn't be destructive to free will for one. People can see something and still not believe it (they think it's a trick), or they have the option to not follow God's Way.

Plus, isn't the world already in chaos?
Chaos means disorder, and if everything was in order, I dunno about you, but I'd be a little bored, lethargic, and unmotivated.

Edit: More than I already am. .--.
 

493pokemon1

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Because he doesn't mess with free will/ is a benevolent God. If they are one of those that give equal credit to God for all events, then there are rationalizations such as 'God did this so that in the future good events will happen because of the butterfly effect'.

For one, this sounds crazy to me. And two, how can God invoke a miracle without messing with freewill? Three, if you are one of those rationalizers (or not), please correct me. I would like to see these things I wrote proven wrong. It would make me a little more satisfied to see that one of the most prominent religions in the world isn't so fallacious.

Bullshit.
First of all free will does not exist. God has planned everything out first. Once he made us, he knew Adam and eve would commit the original sin. He knew all wars owuld happen when genocides would happes, when the first african american became president, and he knows when the heck the ed of the world exists. You eat pancakes for breakfast? well God had already put that for you. Sudden Diahrrea? Gods fault 2. You get run over? God saw it coming about 2 million years ago. There is no such thing as free Will. He knew we were going to manslaughter his son. Hell even Jesus knew, even though he plead for it to be some other way but it wasnt.
 

Ven-Dono

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Bullshit.
First of all free will does not exist. God has planned everything out first. Once he made us, he knew Adam and eve would commit the original sin. He knew all wars owuld happen when genocides would happes, when the first african american became president, and he knows when the heck the ed of the world exists. You eat pancakes for breakfast? well God had already put that for you. Sudden Diahrrea? Gods fault 2. You get run over? God saw it coming about 2 million years ago. There is no such thing as free Will. He knew we were going to manslaughter his son. Hell even Jesus knew, even though he plead for it to be some other way but it wasnt.

I'm confused. With how many interpretations of the Bible there are, Christian is almost as ambiguous a word as Agnostic.

And if I looked at it the way you did, I would wonder why God even did it all in the first place.
 

The Fishman

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Oh really?
It wouldn't be destructive to free will for one. People can see something and still not believe it (they think it's a trick), or they have the option to not follow God's Way.

Plus, isn't the world already in chaos?
Chaos means disorder, and if everything was in order, I dunno about you, but I'd be a little bored, lethargic, and unmotivated.

Edit: More than I already am. .--.

Like I said, I don't explain things really good, but I'll give it a shot.
The world isn't in chaos. I believe we haven't seen "chaos" yet. There is a lot of evil and other bad things going on, but what I tried to get across isn't encompassed by that.
If God fully revealed himself to us and interacted with us, our innate selfishness would cause us to want him for ourselves because God is just that magnificent. Catholics call it the "Beatific Vision" I believe when you see God face to face.
People would begin to harm others, kill, do anything to be with God.

I'm not trying to degrade anyone who doesn't believe, but athiests or other non-believers would take what I just said as bullshit, which is why you really need to ponder on these situations if you want to find the answers. It seems more like a theory, but I believe it to be fact. Again, I can't explain for shit, but I tried my best. To me, what I said makes sense because I found that through my own accord.
 

Ven-Dono

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Miracles mess with freewill? Do tell.

If one said that if God were to appear that it would mess with free will, I say miracles do as well. Just to a smaller extent.

But because I do not believe that God appearing would mess with free will, I don't believe miracles would.

God should appear to us or miracles shouldn't exist.

I hope that doesn't look like a false dichotomy.

Edit:

To clarify, when and if Jesus resurrected, which was a miracle, people "would lose their free will" and have faith after witnessing it. Now I don't believe this, but Christians are setting a double standard for how miracles don't take away free will, but God appearing would.
 
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Nyangoro

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And if he knows that, why doesn't he? To not do so, would be to inadvertently send some of his loved ones (like me apparently) to Hell, right? It would seem as if he didn't care.

John 20:29 - Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

God wants our faith without him having to come down himself (yet, anyway) and tell us that He exists. Being able to believe what you can't see is a stronger connection than being able to believe what you can.

On a different note, humans are already doomed to Hell (according to Christian doctrine); it's not that God sends us to Hell for not believing in him. We are sent to Hell because that is the default.

To clarify, when and if Jesus resurrected, which was a miracle, people "would lose their free will" and have faith after witnessing it. Now I don't believe this, but Christians are setting a double standard for how miracles don't take away free will, but God appearing would.

That doesn't take away from free will. You can choose whether or not to believe in something whether you see it or not.
 
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The Fishman

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On a different note, humans are already doomed to Hell (according to Christian doctrine); it's not that God sends us to Hell for not believing in him. We are sent to Hell because that is the default.

uh, where did you get that from?
 

Nyangoro

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uh, where did you get that from?

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

I'm sure there are others that mention this idea, but this is the verse that pops into my head at the moment (oh how I love Romans).
 

The Fishman

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Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

I'm sure there are others that mention this idea, but this is the verse that pops into my head at the moment (oh how I love Romans).

doesn't it say something where since Jesus died and rose from the dead, now we have a chance to live an eternal life with God if we truly desire that through our actions and faith

I would agree with you if we were talking about the time before Jesus died, but I don't think we're necessarily damned and going to Hell when we die without any chance of going to Heaven if we truly deserve it.
 

Ven-Dono

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That doesn't take away from free will. You can choose whether or not to believe in something whether you see it or not.
Exactly.

John 20:29 - Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

God wants our faith without him having to come down himself (yet, anyway) and tell us that we exist. Being able to believe what you can't see is a stronger connection than being able to believe what you can.
Then, why do miracles exist? If I saw an obvious miracle that resulted from my praying, I would be led to believe in God about just as much as if I saw him appear to us.
On a different note, humans are already doomed to Hell (according to Christian doctrine); it's not that God sends us to Hell for not believing in him. We are sent to Hell because that is the default.

It still stands that a loving God would try to save us in whatever way he could. Appearing to us would convert a lot of people, but would still keep free will.
 
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