MX = Villain Sue?

[Smithee]

Time travel, multi-retcons in his favor, everyone else being weaker/dumber in his presence, divine MacGuffins like the Cornerstone Of Light being overridden by his power alone, etc.?

Just one would've been dismissible as coincidence, but all of ^that^ seems more indicative of a pattern. An Aizen-y pattern, to be precise.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Master Xehanort is a better villain than Aizen.

Cornerstone of Light was overpowered by Maleficent, not Xehanort.

 

[Zettaflare]

Well, if he was a villain sue, all of his plans would have worked out without any problems. But they didn't. He even admitted his own shortcomings in ddd

 

[Smithee]

Master Xehanort is a better villain than Aizen.

Cornerstone of Light was overpowered by Maleficent, not Xehanort.

Except she said it was because of his darkness, so it still counts.

Well, if he was a villain sue, all of his plans would have worked out without any problems. But they didn't. He even admitted his own shortcomings in ddd

Except they technically did work out, according to his overall time-loop thing.

 

[Joker'sHeartless]

Well, according to the TV Tropes website, Xehanort is running a Xanatos Gambit (he's even mentioned on the page), which is pretty much a "no matter what you do, I still win" type plan.
So, even though all his previous plans failed, they were all part of a bigger plan that is currently succeeding. Being able to plan for all these crazy random occurrences over the past decade+ and still have it come out in his favor makes him kind of a Sue...
or Batman...

 

[Gram]

Imo Xehanort isn't a villain sue, he's worse. He's becoming the next Aizen.

 

[Chuman]

well maybe because this way when III rolls around he's such an unbeatable boss when you inevitably win you feel badass.

also the fact that he's a very interesting character doesn't make you feel like he's some pointless douche showhorned into the role so you feel good about punching him.

 

[Smithee]

well maybe because this way when III rolls around he's such an unbeatable boss when you inevitably win you feel badass.

also the fact that he's a very interesting character doesn't make you feel like he's some pointless douche showhorned into the role so you feel good about punching him.

I only "felt good" in that regard about Ansem SOD and Xemnas. MX indeed feels like "some pointless douche shoehorned into the role" at this point, only tolerable due to Leonard Nimoy's voice-work.

 

[Chuman]

I only "felt good" in that regard about Ansem SOD and Xemnas. MX indeed feels like "some pointless douche shoehorned into the role" at this point, only tolerable due to Leonard Nimoy's voice-work.

in birth by sleep i thought he was a good villain, tbh i really don't remember a whole lot about 3D so i couldn't say much about his character then. ansem i felt good about f'ing up royally because i was like 5 back then and he was the bad guy, xemnas was a bit of the same but after playing bbs and seeing the IIFM scenes online (this was a few years back lol) i might feel a little different.

 

[digimikej]

Except she said it was because of his darkness, so it still counts.

I don't recall that in the slightest? If you could link a quote or something to prove me wrong, I'll believe you, but i'm pretty sure it was Maleficent's darkness plus her finding a magic doorway into time, nothing involving Xehanort or the organization was even involved with the whole Cornerstone of Light debacle.

 

[Zettaflare]

I don't recall that in the slightest? If you could link a quote or something to prove me wrong, I'll believe you, but i'm pretty sure it was Maleficent's darkness plus her finding a magic doorway into time, nothing involving Xehanort or the organization was even involved with the whole Cornerstone of Light debacle.

He is referring to how Maleficent was able to come back to Disney Castle in DDD, not the situation in KH2

 

[Shogo-Kun]

Honestly, I'm sick of Xehanort myself, but I wouldn't call him a Villain Sue. At least, not yet. At most I would call Xehanort a perfectly fine villain that just has elements that are criminally under-utilized (Apprentice Xehanort and Xemnas' ambitions anyone?)

 

[Gram]

I only "felt good" in that regard about Ansem SOD and Xemnas. MX indeed feels like "some pointless douche shoehorned into the role" at this point

in birth by sleep i thought he was a good villain

Couldn't agree more with both of these. In Birth by Sleep he was fine, the game was his origin story and all. It was meant to show us who the "Xehanort" of KH2 was. But bringing him back in DDD along with him, and by extension Nomura, basically saying "lol Oh yeah. Those other guys were just my puppet. I was doing it all along, it was all me" completely undermined the previous villains.

I'd even say it took what little of personality we got to see of them. MX also shoehorned Apprentice and Terranort entirely. In the opening scene we see Apprentice in the process of making everyone heartless. That pretty much rendered Apprentice Nort moot cause whether his memory loss was real or not is now irrelevant.
If it was real he just got taken over by MX (finally) and went on a crazed spree which then falls back on it all being MX instead of Apprentice.
And if the memory loss was fake then that also renders it moot cause then there was no apprentice at all just Xehanort posing in Terras body.

Terranort and Apprentice Nort was reduced to "stepping stones" to Ansem-Xemnas who themselves was rendered less of individuals and just MX puppeteering the whole time.
Then anything of possible uniqueness or future mystery was taken away cause MX himself came back rather than Apprentice or even Terranort.

(Apprentice Xehanort and Xemnas' ambitions anyone?)

Minds well give up on those now. TnT

 

[Chuman]

Couldn't agree more with both of these. In Birth by Sleep he was fine, the game was his origin story and all. It was meant to show us who the "Xehanort" of KH2 was. But bringing him back in DDD along with him, and by extension Nomura, basically saying "lol Oh yeah. Those other guys were just my puppet. I was doing it all along, it was all me" completely undermined the previous villains.

I'd even say it took what little of personality we got to see of them. MX also shoehorned Apprentice and Terranort entirely. In the opening scene we see Apprentice in the process of making everyone heartless. That pretty much rendered Apprentice Nort moot cause whether his memory loss was real or not is now irrelevant.
If it was real he just got taken over by MX (finally) and went on a crazed spree which then falls back on it all being MX instead of Apprentice.
And if the memory loss was fake then that also renders it moot cause then there was no apprentice at all just Xehanort posing in Terras body.

Terranort and Apprentice Nort was reduced to "stepping stones" to Ansem-Xemnas who themselves was rendered less of individuals and just MX puppeteering the whole time.
Then anything of possible uniqueness or future mystery was taken away cause MX himself came back rather than Apprentice or even Terranort.


Minds well give up on those now. TnT

i actually thought it was the norts doing their thing without knowing they were following a blueprint, i'll even go as far to say they were influenced but not controlled. apprenticenort is different because he very well could have gotten his (MX) memories back and turned on the others.

 

[Gram]

i actually thought it was the norts doing their thing without knowing they were following a blueprint, i'll even go as far to say they were influenced but not controlled. apprenticenort is different because he very well could have gotten his (MX) memories back and turned on the others.

Except this is a both true and that it's not. When Young Xehanort returns to his time at the end of DDD his loses his memories but they aren't gone entirely. They're repressed and are actually what "guides" him as Nomura put it through his life.
Xehanort is essentially setting his life for himself on a subconscious level.

There's also the issue of memory. Even though the Apprentice is iffy, Ansem and Xemnas however are confirmed to remember. Xemnas in an interview and Ansem through his actions.
Ansem travels back to his youth as YX. He can only do that if he remembers being YX.
Then there's also all the things Ansem and Xemnas do know such as how the keyblades work, that Ventus is in Castle Oblivion, recognizing Roxas Ventus inspired face, etc.

Everything about them oozes Xehanort. Xemnas even admits in DDD that gathering the Org was simply a means to make 13 dark vessels using his false kingdom hearts as a means to possess them.

 

[Chuman]

Except this is a both true and that it's not. When Young Xehanort returns to his time at the end of DDD his loses his memories but they aren't gone entirely. They're repressed and are actually what "guides" him as Nomura put it through his life.
Xehanort is essentially setting his life for himself on a subconscious level.

There's also the issue of memory. Even though the Apprentice is iffy, Ansem and Xemnas however are confirmed to remember. Xemnas in an interview and Ansem through his actions.
Ansem travels back to his youth as YX. He can only do that if he remembers being YX.
Then there's also all the things Ansem and Xemnas do know such as how the keyblades work, that Ventus is in Castle Oblivion, recognizing Roxas Ventus inspired face, etc.

Everything about them oozes Xehanort. Xemnas even admits in DDD that gathering the Org was simply a means to make 13 dark vessels using his false kingdom hearts as a means to possess them.

it'd be really cool if they could sneak in some terra planning, as we saw in FM scenes he was talking to aqua's armor so he was in there somewhere, if only he set up some sort of contingency plan that when it plays out i believe it, like weakening MX in some way.

otherwise, how else could sora believably defeat the most powerful being in the universe? (inb4 "my friends are my power" speech and him becoming powerful enough to win.

 

[Gram]

it'd be really cool if they could sneak in some terra planning, as we saw in FM scenes he was talking to aqua's armor so he was in there somewhere, if only he set up some sort of contingency plan that when it plays out i believe it, like weakening MX in some way.

otherwise, how else could sora believably defeat the most powerful being in the universe? (inb4 "my friends are my power" speech and him becoming powerful enough to win.

At some points you get the feel Terra moments was a thing but they seem dropped now. </3
DDD more or less rendered MX's "nobody enforcer" as one member once put it.

Cause disney magic! [jk]
Joking aside Xehanort will likely be his own downfall. He's not the most powerful and he underestimates the heart repeatedly. I look to see his downfall to be an ironic one brought about by his own personality.

 

[Chuman]

At some points you get the feel Terra moments was a thing but they seem dropped now. </3
DDD more or less rendered MX's "nobody enforcer" as one member once put it.

Cause disney magic! [jk]
Joking aside Xehanort will likely be his own downfall. He's not the most powerful and he underestimates the heart repeatedly. I look to see his downfall to be an ironic one brought about by his own personality.

looking at all of this i remember 5-6 years ago when i speculated terra was xehanort because they had the same haircut lol

 

[Shogo-Kun]

Joking aside Xehanort will likely be his own downfall. He's not the most powerful and he underestimates the heart repeatedly. I look to see his downfall to be an ironic one brought about by his own personality.

So... basically he goes down because of his arrogance clouding what should be his better judgement ala Ganondorf from The Legend of Zelda?

That's... definitely in the realm of possibility. In fact, I'm imagining the cutscene before the final battle to basically be a mirror to the cutscene before the final Ganondorf battle in Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. Just imagine...

*Master Xehanort finally summons Kingdom Hearts and the X-blade*

MX: Oh great Kingdom Hearts, here that which I desire! Bring down the barriers of this world! Let the worlds be connected once more! Show me the truth to the Keyblade War!

*prepares to use the X-blade to unlock Kingdom Hearts, only for you-know-who to show up*

???: He who wields the X-blade will have whatever their heart's desire granted by the great light. Is that not what you said, Xehanort?

*the unknown person reveals himself to be Master Eraqus*

ME: Kingdom Hearts, hear that which I desire! Grant these brave warriors the power to vanquish the darkness and the courage to face the many challenges along the way! Give them a future! One they can walk towards with no regrets! And may our destinies be fulfilled. (to Master Xehanort) Now, it is time to end our role in this play. Xehanort, may you drown in the deepest darkness!

*the X-blade is immediately shattered, Kingdom Hearts retreats to the Realm of Darkness yet again, and Xehanort starts laughing mad*

 

[Smithee]

IMO, MX would've worked much better as a Sauron-type, a Venom/Carnage-type, etc.

Just anything but an Aizen-type!