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My first Unbirth Theory *Possible Spoilers*



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devastater147

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I wonder what TN is...


thats not what you said...




Oh finally you agree with us, lets get an applause shall we,


Random Talk? You should and shall read more interviews with Nomura... It might help you ALOT.

Tetsuya Nomura long for TN
 

azurastardust

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I think this is a rather nifty theory! Granted someone might argue that there is a degree of overlap between the darkness in people’s hearts (dark emotions?) and the darkness in peoples memories (a kind of second-order dark emotion: the recollection of feeling a dark emotion). Having voiced that scepticism I’m now gonna ignore it and try and build on the theory with a little (ok a lot) speculation. I’d first like to qualify this notion of the darkness in people’s memories to also potentially include the darkness of peoples intentions, this will become significant in a moment.

A number of things occurred to me as I read this theory. Simple stuff: we know Malificent is active in BBS and if Unbirths are created by encouraging the bad memories or bad intentions of others Malificent only has to be her usual self (covering pretty castles in thorns etc) to promote this in others and draw upon its power.
Now with that in mind I’d like to make an even wilder speculation. A while ago I watched the ‘Another side, Another story’ and ‘Deep Dive’ videos and I was thinking about BBS. At the time it instantly struck me that they’d anticipated BBS perfectly by saying "The Third Enemy = The Nobodies". Since it seemed logical to me that in chronological order the first enemies would be unbirths (in BBS), the second would be heartless (KH1) and the third as noted are nobodies (KH2). At the time though, someone pointed out that actually ‘the first enemy’ should be interpreted/are evil ‘whole beings’ (e.g. Pete and Malificent etc).
However having thought about this, this cannot be correct because (as the Kingdom hearts series constantly tells us) all whole beings - sans the princesses of heart - have a certain amount of darkness in their hearts. But then if that is true how can we possibly differentiate between an evil ‘whole being’ and everyone else who inhabits the realm of light in the kingdom hearts series – what else can an evil ‘whole being’ be but a ‘whole being’ who has darkness in their hearts? The difference between someone like Sora and someone like Malificent two simply collapses. Ergo the first enemy cannot be as cut and dry as evil whole beings – thus I assert that the first enemy are the unbirths; and if that is correct then Nomura and chums were leaving room for the unbirths as far back as Deep Dive…. Kudos to them.
So far so good, but where does that leave us? Well, I maintain that characters such as Pete and Malificent have an association with unbirths. This is why the widened definition of unbirths here is crucial – Pete and Malificent have dark intentions as well as dark memories.
There is also one more interesting thing to note about Malificent. (I know all of this is wildly speculative but I feel particularly unsure of this part so please correct me if I have gone astray). In KH2 Malificent returns from the realm of darkness. How? By what means? The raven Diablos (?) leaves her cloak in the presence of Flora, Fauna and Merriweather and what do they say….

Flora: No! We mustn't remember her name! Oh dear...
Merryweather: She was a mean ol' witch! Oh no! The memories are coming back! What'll we do!? Oooh---what'll we do!?

Note also the words of Vexen, regarding Malificent, from RE:COM…

Vexen: That witch is gone. She cannot return from the realm of darkness of her own volition.


So, to my mind it seems that while Malificent’s power extends over the heartless (as Saix says… to command them you only have to be the strongest) her own power, by this theory, stems from the power of unbirths. The remembrance of bad memories pertaining to her gave her the means or the power to return to the realm of light. Of course it might be countered here that: "Well in that case, when Pete found out that Malificent was gone, why didn’t he just think of memories pertaining to her and bring her straight back himself?" That’s tricky but its possible that Pete – being in league with Malificent didn’t have bad memories pertaining to her… hmmm so much for that line of thought.
Just to add further thoughts, I had heard that BBS has a connection to the events of Coded. Well if that is true and memories are the key theme, that sits pretty well. Since Jiminy’s journal is essentially a record of memories.
Finally, as for the problem of "where have the unbirths gone post-BBS?" Well I can make one speculation that I think is consistent with most of the things I have suggested so far. At the conclusion of BBS (either with good or evil intent) someone seals the dark memories/intentions of people inside kingdom hearts. The top candidates for doing that would be either MX or Terra. This is problematic though since clearly people still have bad memories/intentions post-BBS.
Maybe the theory can be saved here by saying that what is sealed is the actual capacity for unbirths to manifest out of peoples bad memories/intentions, but that starts to complicate things more than they perhaps need to be.
Still, as an after-though, has the KH series ever give an answer to why there were so many heartless inside kingdom hearts? Perhaps if we speculate that unbirths can create genuine darkness and that unbirths were for some reason sealed within kingdom hearts – that gives an explanation of why those heartless are there.
The counter to this might be that we don’t need an explanation: Kingdom hearts is a giant scaled up version of every other kind of heart – in which case it would have a certain amount of darkness within it just like any other heart.
Having assumed and speculated just about everything now I think I’d better shut up =) If any one can correct me on the few facts that I cited it would be gladly received and sorry for going off on one!
 

Abbot

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Quick thing, everyone agrees that there is darkness in everyone's heart, yes? (Princesses of Heart exempt)

Now, here are my own speculations, after reading this whole topic. I like the memory idea, but think about it, don't Nobodies retain the memories of their former self? Of course, without a heart, these feelings are fake, right? But, either way, memories seem connected to the body, and not only the heart. Just a thought.

And, the name of this new enemy, Unbirth, this is where it starts. We all agree that there was darkness in hearts during the BBS timeframe. Although, there were no Heartless, as Xehanort hadn't found the door to the dark yet, and neither had he created artificial Heartless. But, with what did he create the first Heartless prototypes with? Possibly with knowledge of the Unbirths. Now, considering their names, Unbirths should essentially be something that has not been born. Or a reverse birth, perhaps. Perhaps, Unbirths are/were primary forms of the Heartless?

Stick with me here. Since Xehanort had not yet found this 'great power' mentioned in the Ansem Reports, maybe Heartless couldn't fully materialize? What if they tried, but couldn't, resulting in a reverse. In trying to be born, they are interupted by the fact that they CAN'T. So, they aren't born, but the darkness in the person's heart has already swallowed said person's heart, and what's left is an Unbirth--an incomplete Heartless.

This can further be justified by the fact that Unbirths do not exist past the point where Heartless come into the picture. So, possibly, after Xehanort finds this great power, Heartless can fully materialize, past the Unbirth stage. Although, I guess Unbirth is not a stage, as it is a complete failure of a Heartless trying to form.

So, my closing thoughts. Up until the point where Xehanort furthered his Heartless plans with this 'great power', Heartless could not complete their materialization, so each time a Heartless tried to surface, it would have to abort, and the remaining pieces of its attempt--that being the darkness in the heart, and possibly remaining light in the heart, as the Heartless can't completely swallow the heart with darkness, if it isn't created, right?--becomes an Unbirth. Basically, a failed, or incomplete Heartless. Or, if you will, a Heartless that was unborn.

EDIT:
Also, about that remaining light in the heart bit, in my closing paragraph. This could explain the blue colour. The complete black appearance of a Heartless could be due to the fact that there is no more light in the heart that the Heartless formed from. Yet, if there is still light, the darkness in the heart could be diluted by the light of a heart, and therefore explaining the blue appearance of an Unbirth. Just a thought.

2nd EDIT:
Also, there is information that not all Unbirths don the Unbirth emblem, right? Possibly indicating artificial Unbirths. So, perhaps, artificial Unbirths are created in the same manner as artificial Heartless, seeing as according to my theory, they might originate from the same source.
 
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Allister Rose

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Im going to skip everything that everyone has said but...
Doesnt The Heart already have Memories in it or The Heart is made up of Memories...
So if Darkness were to Consume the Memories it would just make a Heartless all over again.. because basically its the Heart.
So this means I go against this...

hearts are not made up of memories......the heart just has light, darkness and memories in them

Well I was still right, I just didnt include Light and Darkness.

did you not read the first sentence? memories arent part of the heart. the heart can still be whole without them.

The Heart would fail without Memories, wouldn't it?
i.e. Sora in Chain of Memories and Marloosha's evil plan =3

the heart would break. but it will still be there. the memories only help give it a physical form, but it doesnt need memories to exist

Looks like the King on the Horse has Finally Won.



If there is no physical form then it is just a soul...
and yes it does.

huh? sigh...i feel really stupid because i dont understand this random talk you members keep saying...ahhh....so confused

no i think you are behind a few interviews of TN.

the heart has no physical form if it doesn't have memories. memories only help it give it form. the heart will still exist if there is no memories (reference to COM, marluxia's plan?)

namine said it herself, if sora lost all his memories his heart would break.

and when namine broke riku replicas heart she said that the heart can heal.

I wonder what TN is...


thats not what you said...




Oh finally you agree with us, lets get an applause shall we,


Random Talk? You should and shall read more interviews with Nomura... It might help you ALOT.

i'm pretty sure you did...
 

Tenyas

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^ wow allister, you just don't have many people agreeing with you today do you?

I came on here to inform TerraFTW that I added his theory to my thread and to see if wether or not I should remove it.
SO...Should I or is it fine?
 

Allister Rose

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Joined
May 13, 2009
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^ wow allister, you just don't have many people agreeing with you today do you?

I came on here to inform TerraFTW that I added his theory to my thread and to see if wether or not I should remove it.
SO...Should I or is it fine?

what? only.....uhmm......2 people.xjeezlouisx mis-read. that's it. and omnichaos? didn't contribute much. the only thing i agreed was about the DtD. everything else was his opinion.

anyways....you give terraFTW! credit in the the theory he contributed than there wont be a problem.
 

azurastardust

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Quick thing, everyone agrees that there is darkness in everyone's heart, yes? (Princesses of Heart exempt)

Now, here are my own speculations, after reading this whole topic. I like the memory idea, but think about it, don't Nobodies retain the memories of their former self? Of course, without a heart, these feelings are fake, right? But, either way, memories seem connected to the body, and not only the heart. Just a thought.

And, the name of this new enemy, Unbirth, this is where it starts. We all agree that there was darkness in hearts during the BBS timeframe. Although, there were no Heartless, as Xehanort hadn't found the door to the dark yet, and neither had he created artificial Heartless. But, with what did he create the first Heartless prototypes with? Possibly with knowledge of the Unbirths. Now, considering their names, Unbirths should essentially be something that has not been born. Or a reverse birth, perhaps. Perhaps, Unbirths are/were primary forms of the Heartless?

Stick with me here. Since Xehanort had not yet found this 'great power' mentioned in the Ansem Reports, maybe Heartless couldn't fully materialize? What if they tried, but couldn't, resulting in a reverse. In trying to be born, they are interupted by the fact that they CAN'T. So, they aren't born, but the darkness in the person's heart has already swallowed said person's heart, and what's left is an Unbirth--an incomplete Heartless.

This can further be justified by the fact that Unbirths do not exist past the point where Heartless come into the picture. So, possibly, after Xehanort finds this great power, Heartless can fully materialize, past the Unbirth stage. Although, I guess Unbirth is not a stage, as it is a complete failure of a Heartless trying to form.

So, my closing thoughts. Up until the point where Xehanort furthered his Heartless plans with this 'great power', Heartless could not complete their materialization, so each time a Heartless tried to surface, it would have to abort, and the remaining pieces of its attempt--that being the darkness in the heart, and possibly remaining light in the heart, as the Heartless can't completely swallow the heart with darkness, if it isn't created, right?--becomes an Unbirth. Basically, a failed, or incomplete Heartless. Or, if you will, a Heartless that was unborn.

I think theres something to this, if heartless definately weren't around in BBS and since everyone still had degrees of darkness in their hearts there has to be a reason that heartless didn't consume hearts. Perhaps this might be an interesting line of thought: every world has a heart (true), and every world prior to KH1 had a shell surrounding it - when said shell was broken by Xehanorts actions the meteor show of gummi blocks occured. Now perhaps if the worlds have shells it was because they have hearts? In which case people might have a kind of shell around them too a kind of protective seal - atleast its plausible that they did at the time of BBS. Thus preventing heartless devouring hearts and perhaps leading to the alternate situation where unbirths are created.
Such a seal wouldn't be without precedent in KH, Namine offers to seal Xehanort's darkness away in his heart by way of sealing his memories.

I'm kinda peeved that after all I wrote no one said anything about it - ok it was rambling - but come on not even any flames? Harsh:cry:
 

Alex999

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I think theres something to this, if heartless definately weren't around in BBS and since everyone still had degrees of darkness in their hearts there has to be a reason that heartless didn't consume hearts. Perhaps this might be an interesting line of thought: every world has a heart (true), and every world prior to KH1 had a shell surrounding it - when said shell was broken by Xehanorts actions the meteor show of gummi blocks occured. Now perhaps if the worlds have shells it was because they have hearts? In which case people might have a kind of shell around them too a kind of protective seal - atleast its plausible that they did at the time of BBS. Thus preventing heartless devouring hearts and perhaps leading to the alternate situation where unbirths are created.
Such a seal wouldn't be without precedent in KH, Namine offers to seal Xehanort's darkness away in his heart by way of sealing his memories.

I'm kinda peeved that after all I wrote no one said anything about it - ok it was rambling - but come on not even any flames? Harsh:cry:

xehanort created the heartless, but he actually had to try. before that there werent any cases of someone being completly consumed by darkness and turning into one so what ur saying is possible.

I have my own theory of unbirths but this doesn't look bad
 
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