NEW ENEMY SYMBOL!!!

[Wehrmacht]

The Soul Eater never achieved importance, up until it became a huge plot device.

And when did it become such, ?

 

[Keyblader110]

It is not a new enemy sign I bet Aqua has a differant one too.

 

[TheMuffinMan]

You know, this whole thing reminds me of the Superior vs. DiZ debates, where half the theorists believed that the Superior of the Organization was Ansem's Nobody, and the other half believed that was too obvious of a plot device and that Nomura would be more creative and go down the path of DiZ being Ansem's Nobody, or his actual self after being burn by Kingdom Heart's light

 

[Wehrmacht]

You know, this whole thing reminds me of the Superior vs. DiZ debates, where half the theorists believed that the Superior of the Organization was Ansem's Nobody, and the other half believed that was too obvious of a plot device and that Nomura would be more creative and go down the path of DiZ secretly being Ansem's Nobody or actual self after being burn by Kingdom Heart's light

Well, I bet they would have never dreamed the KH1 Ansem was fake...and that DiZ was the real Ansem...

 

[lonekyuubi]

It could be the symbol for terra aqua and ven, they could be apart of an order of knights :/

 

[Mod_Soul]

pesonally i think its the symbol of a keybearer and the color repersents how strong the bearer is
terras is gold vens is silver and aquas could be anything

 

[TheMuffinMan]

Well, I bet they would have never dreamed the KH1 Ansem was fake...and that DiZ was the real Ansem...

Point was, that the Superior-is-Ansem's-Nobody side made a very clear connection: when you fought him in KH1 he said that the name "Ansem" was familiar to him, that he was nothing more than a mere Shell, in Chains of Memories Zexion said that the Ansem within Riku smelled like the Superior

The DiZ-is-Ansem dismissed this as too obvious of a connection and that they would be shocked if that was indeed Nomura's intent with those scenes, they instead fabricated separate ideas for what was 'really' happening, completely branching off and dismissing the clues right in front of them, scenes and connections right in the game

 

[Wehrmacht]

Point was, that the Superior-is-Ansem's-Nobody side made a very clear connection: when you fought him in KH1 he said that the name "Ansem" was familiar to him, that he was nothing more than a mere Shell, in Chains of Memories Zexion said that the Ansem within Riku smelled like the Superior

The DiZ-is-Ansem dismissed this as too obvious of a connection and that they would be shocked if that was indeed Nomura's intent with those scenes, they instead fabricated separate ideas for what was 'really' happening, completely branching off and dismissing the clues right in front of them, scenes and connections right in the game

Eh, I wouldn't have been one of them. Also, you didn't answer my question: since when has Soul Eater been a significant plot device?

 

[TheMuffinMan]

I may have exaggerate it as a 'huge plot device', however Riku 'crafted' a Keyblade through his connection with the Soul Eater, completely changing our concept of how a Keyblade even works, and making Riku a Keyblade Wielder we never thought he'd be. Up until then, it was nothing more than a batwing blade that appeared from nowhere and we didn't give a second though, however this is no longer so, Riku used his connection with it to craft a Keyblade from it, the same blade was used by Xehanort's Heartless in the Final Battle, and now MX and DS both use Keyblades the a similar "eye" insignia, not to mention the fact that Meleficent discovered the Soul Eater at Hollow Bastion, and who was it that lived at Hollow Bastion for a time that could have crafted this familiar blade?

 

[UrbanQuattrus]

Again, serious denial if you're trying to say that these emblems are not practically the same exact thing as the Heartless symbol, Ven's in specific is exactly like the Heartless symbol

Resemblace? More like it's practically the exact same symbol

No, it's not denial... I really, truly, don't understand why you think they are so incontrovertibly the same symbol. Yes, they look similar. It is far from a foregone conclusion that they are the same. Your eyes are just reading it differently than ours, that's all I can make of what you're saying.

See: because you can point out a similar thing that wasn't a huge plot detail, that means that everything remotely like that has to be equally meaningless.

It's a stupid defense to try and dispell the notion.

This at the same time as you're arguing that the nobody symbol is obviously the same as the one on the organization's weapons, therefore we should assume Terra's belt buckle is definitely the precursor of the heartless emblem?

If you look at the picture, they clearly are.

Clearly what? Terra's and Ven's symbol are the same? After I pointed out the straight edges on Terra's, you said:

Look at Ven's crest, I see no straight edges.

So which is it, they are the same or aren't they in your eyes? Even though the image of Ven's symbol is so small and looks so degraded when blown up that I don't know how you could identify it as different from Terra's anyway.

Before we knew what Nobodies were they still had the symbol on their weapons, had this conversation taken place 2 years ago you'd be trying to tell me that there is no relation between the symbol on the Unknown's Weapons and the symbol representing the "White Heartless"

I can't pretend to know what sort of argument I might have made regarding the nobodies had I been in an analogous debate before the release of KH2. But you don't KNOW anything. This symbol is similar to the heartless emblem, it is not the SAME. To me, it looks about as similar to the heartless emblem as the heartless emblem does to the nobody emblem, and heartless and nobodies are two different things.

I'm not jumping to huge conclusions, I'm looking at something blatantly obvious that the director of the game is making a clear connection between, and you're saying that because they're not precisely the same thing, that there's no way they're related and that it's just PURE COINCIDENCE that the director orchestrating the entire story decided to put them there?

I didn't say there's no way, you're not even paying attention! I said that it's wrong to just assume this MUST be the ONLY explanation! You ARE jumping to conclusions because you assume you've figured out the only possible answer!

It's funny that you say this, because was it not 2 pages ago that you said you had faith in Nomura to not use such a plot device that you deem 'too obvious'? Clearly it's not that obvious, seeing as I'm the only one here who has noticed the connection and how clearly relevant it is, you're using Nomura lack of ingenuity to try and disprove my theory, while defending yours by saying that Nomura has the ingenuity to not do something that would be so obvious

You're contradicting yourself in the same sentence now! Every paragraph prior to this you say how blatantly obvious it is, then here you say "clearly it's not that obvious", then 14 words later you say how "clearly relevant" it is? You are exponentially more guilty of what you accuse me of!

I'm making obvious connections, and you're sticking your head in the sand

See? One second it's "blatantly obvious", the next it's "I'm the only one who was able to make the connection", the next after that it's "so obvious to everyone but you're in denial". Which!?

See: because you can point out a similar thing that wasn't a huge plot detail, that means that everything remotely like that has to be equally meaningless.

And you point out an inconclusive visual resemblance, and that means that the connection is 100% guaranteed and NOTHING else is possible?

The point you were making sort made sense up until the DiZ part. You're saying that because he designed buildings, that means that the Knights having a Heartless symbol crest on them years before it was thought it has no meaning? There's a difference between making something pretty, and placing a specific symbol in a prequel that you are specifically making to explain the history of the things we don't know about

IT'S NOT THE HEARTLESS SYMBOL!! HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY CLAIM THAT YOU ARE NOT JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS!!??

Let's see here, I'll try the same thing you're doing

Riku has big shoes, Sora has big shoes, clearly this means that Master Xehanort has a foot fetish, and thus clearly has no plot relevance because he's creepy!

I say that their big shoes is just for visual effect, the same as the other things I mentioned. Are you saying that their big shoes IS a plot-relevant point?

You give one example of what could have taken place and it's clearly a well-thought proof that what I'm saying could not have taken place, I say something similar and it's nothing more than 'conjecture'?

When have I stated that any of your ideas are impossible? I have said repeatedly that you very well may be right. Key word: MAY. YOU, on the other hand, assume that your idea is the ONLY possible explanation as soon as you think of it, and that any contradictory suggestion is the product of willful denial. You are guilty of exactly what you falsely accuse us of.

See: because you can point out a similar thing that wasn't a huge plot detail, that means that everything remotely like that has to be equally meaningless.

Why does everything have to be all or nothing with you?

The Soul Eater never achieved importance, up until it became a huge plot device.

Which, actually, is... what? It became the Way to the Dawn, yes, but that doesn't seem to be huge enough to have, say, merited a single mention from any character at any point. The plot of the game never hinged on the Soul Eater. The plot just as easily could have called for Riku to toss the soul eater off a cliff while a totally new, unrelated keyblade beamed down into his hand, and it wouldn't have made a difference.

You're prematurely assuming it isn't.

Alright, stop, and look. LOOK at my words. I'll bold them for you, LOOK AT THEM.

I can't say that this won't be proven true, I just think that you're prematurely assuming it is.

What part of "I CAN'T SAY THAT THIS WON'T BE PROVEN TRUE" translates in your head as "YOU'RE DEFINITELY WRONG AND I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT YOU MAY BE ON TO SOMETHING?" How does your mind make these BACKWARD connections?

I haven't assumed anything, as you can see all I've done this entire discussion is point out why I feel it is important, I have no waved anything around as a fact, I merely pointed out a connection and pointed out how this could be important

You haven't!? Time and again, all we hear is "blatantly obvious", "you're in denial if you disagree", "clearly the only possibility". How this COULD be important? You've been shocked that we haven't instantly agreed that it was the ONLY thing that could be!!

That'd be like saying Mickey's Keyblade is difference enough from Sora's to not be called a Keyblade at all, and instead be called a "Mickey-Blade"

You've said nothing that provides any inclination that it does stand for a new enemy.

Again, I just don't know how to debate this with you, because you're seeing absolute conclusions that just aren't logical to the rest of us. You take everything as black or white, you don't accept gray.

At the time of BBS taking place, it very well could mean nothing more than a crest of their group, however years later an Apprentice recalls the same symbol, and uses it to mark the Dark Beings he artificially created

An apprentice? So not only are you assuming that VAT's symbol MUST be the heartless logo, but you've also decided that Xehanort MUST be Terra? That's a whole other bucket of problems in itself!

 

[TheMuffinMan]

No, it's not denial... I really, truly, don't understand why you think they are so incontrovertibly the same symbol. Yes, they look similar. It is far from a foregone conclusion that they are the same. Your eyes are just reading it differently than ours, that's all I can make of what you're saying.

Ven's crest is CLEARLY the same exact thing as the Heartless logo

This at the same time as you're arguing that the nobody symbol is obviously the same as the one on the organization's weapons, therefore we should assume Terra's belt buckle is definitely the precursor of the heartless emblem?

To say "well, at the moment Sora's crown doesn't mean anything therefore EVERY SINGLE THING INVOLVE CLOTHING IS MEANINGLESS, IT MEANS NOTHING, RAWRAWRAWR" is such a flimsy argument to try and use to say that there can be no connection

Clearly what? Terra's and Ven's symbol are the same? After I pointed out the straight edges on Terra's, you said

So which is it, they are the same or aren't they in your eyes? Even though the image of Ven's symbol is so small and looks so degraded when blown up that I don't know how you could identify it as different from Terra's anyway.

Uhh, no, I was not talking about Terra and Ven's crest being the same, I was saying that it's conceivable that they are early renditions of what would eventually become the Heartless emblem

Congratulations on going on misreading what I was saying.

You don't need to look at the enlarged version of Ven's crest, you can CLEARLY see it on his body, and it's almost the exact same heart crest as the Heartless Emblem

I can't pretend to know what sort of argument I might have made regarding the nobodies had I been in an analogous debate before the release of KH2. But you don't KNOW anything. This symbol is similar to the heartless emblem, it is not the SAME. To me, it looks about as similar to the heartless emblem as the heartless emblem does to the nobody emblem, and heartless and nobodies are two different things.

The Nobody Emblem is the Heartless Emblem cut in half, turns upside down, with 4 circular holes removed from 4 points. Terra and Ven's Emblem is in the exact same upright position, are both the same Heart shape, and even have the same 3 pronged bottom points to the Heart as the Heartless logo years before the Heartless Emblem even existed, and then suddenly an apprentice with no memory of who he is shows up named Xehanort with a randomly new and young body after previously being ancient, and then when he artificially creates Heartless, he somehow produces the same logo to mark his Heartless?

I didn't say there's no way, you're not even paying attention! I said that it's wrong to just assume this MUST be the ONLY explanation! You ARE jumping to conclusions because you assume you've figured out the only possible answer!

Where am i saying that this is the only explanation? Where am I umping to conclusions? Where have I said these things? I'm saying that this is why I believe there to be a connection, and you're trying to tell me that they look nothing alike and that there is clearly no connection

You're the one jumping to gun to say that there can be no connection, simply because you want to look the other way because you don't want to see anything that may support Terra becoming Apprentice Xehanort

You're contradicting yourself in the same sentence now! Every paragraph prior to this you say how blatantly obvious it is, then here you say "clearly it's not that obvious", then 14 words later you say how "clearly relevant" it is? You are exponentially more guilty of what you accuse me of!

They're two different things that I was referring to, which you would notice if you bothered to read.

Now, let's see ehre, what did I just say? "You say you don't want the theory of Terra becoming Apprentice Xehanort to be true because it's too obvious"...and then what do I say? "Clearly it's not that obvious if I'm the only one here who believes the theory"

*PAUSE*

Now then, what was the second 'obvious' about? Why, let's see! "and how clearly relevant VAT's crest is"

Why gee golly gosh darn diddley Batman! The theory of Terra becoming AX is not obvious, and then in a completely different statement, the obvious connection I pointed out was how Nomura specifically placed a similar symbol on VAT that ties it to the heartless symbol

One is 'not so obvious' as you think it is, and the other is an 'obvious connection' to make. There's no contradiction, as I was talking about separate things

And you point out an inconclusive visual resemblance, and that means that the connection is 100% guaranteed and NOTHING else is possible?

Where have I said that? This entire debate is me defending the possibility of there being a connection, and you saying that it's as irrelevant as a zipper or a shoe

IT'S NOT THE HEARTLESS SYMBOL!! HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY CLAIM THAT YOU ARE NOT JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS!!??

I never said it was the Heartless symbol, I said that it would appear to be it's origins, otherwise why would Nomura place such an obvious sign for connections to be drawn?

When have I stated that any of your ideas are impossible? I have said repeatedly that you very well may be right. Key word: MAY. YOU, on the other hand, assume that your idea is the ONLY possible explanation as soon as you think of it, and that any contradictory suggestion is the product of willful denial. You are guilty of exactly what you falsely accuse us of.

Oh yes, clearly I'm the one in denial, when there's 5 posts in this thread of 'LOL UR STUPIDTHAT LOKKZ NOTING ALIKE DERE NOT EVEN SIMLUR"?

Why does everything have to be all or nothing with you?

That is the nature of debate.

The way i see it, you've had an easy time with debating because everyone in the KH section is an idiot, so you're debating with 12 year olds who can hardly argue their points for their life, so I'm having a dandy time over hear sipping a Soda having a discussion because I do this all the time, and you're the one who seems to be getting their panties in a jumble because you're not used to having someone who gives up as soon as you make a post addressing them

Which, actually, is... what? It became the Way to the Dawn, yes, but that doesn't seem to be huge enough to have, say, merited a single mention from any character at any point. The plot of the game never hinged on the Soul Eater. The plot just as easily could have called for Riku to toss the soul eater off a cliff while a totally new, unrelated keyblade beamed down into his hand, and it wouldn't have made a difference.

See: it was meaningless for 2 games, we thought nothing of it, and suddenly out of nowhere in the last hour of the game it completely changes things and opens new doors of speculation.

What part of "I CAN'T SAY THAT THIS WON'T BE PROVEN TRUE translates in your head as "YOU'RE DEFINITELY WRONG AND I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT YOU MAY BE ON TO SOMETHING?" How does your mind make these BACKWARD connections?

I see the words, however this is a debate, so we're debating here.

You haven't!? Time and again, all we hear is "blatantly obvious", "you're in denial if you disagree", "clearly the only possibility". How this COULD be important? You've been shocked that we haven't instantly agreed that it was the ONLY thing that could be!!

Where have I said 'clearly the only possibility'? What's that you say? I never said that? Fantastic! Glad you agree

See: I'm defending the possibility of it being true, you're stating that there is no connection and that I'm seeing things, when I believe there is a reason as to why Nomura would do such a thing

An apprentice? So not only are you assuming that VAT's symbol MUST be the heartless logo, but you've also decided that Xehanort MUST be Terra?

If I recall, it's you who brought up that if such a connection was to be drawn, that it would result in evidence to defend that Terra may indeed become Apprentice Xehanort. I'm doing nothing more than agreeing with that sentiment

Also, don't forget that this whole thing started with you and Hades buddy-buddying it up mocking a theory and gloating "I can't wait until it turns out there's not connection", "lawlz!11! maybe the final boss will secretly be a book who is impersonating a book who used to be a belt buckle, LAWLAWLAWL"

 

[XxRebel_GirlxX]

maybe it is idk but ill look coolio if it was!