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NEW MF THEORY



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chasespicer056

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You make the connection between MX's reference to "seeds" and Yensid's comment about how there may be more than one Xehanort. I agree as far as that goes.

But Nomura has already confirmed that Braig is one of the "seeds" MX is referring to. So by that logic, then people like Braig and Isa are the ones who account for the multiple Xehanorts. Meaning that they have some sort of piece of Xehanort inside them and they're back.

Ah very true.

Because he was going incognito. He hadn't been back on his home planet in years and didn't want to be detected. The cloaks block a person's "scent." Really, though, the only reason why he was even seen in the cloak was to show that, as Nomura pointed out, Xemnas likely got the idea for the cloaks from MX.

Still, it's not like the people on DI would recognize him. He left there decades ago.

It's at least an article of clothing while he's wearing it. Personally, I think dwelling on that scene would be like dwelling on how, say, Ansem the Wise got a cloak in the BbS secret ending. Of course, there are also people thinking that MF is AtW based on that small detail as well.

I see where you're coming from, but I still think there may be more to this.

I don't get it. Vanitas' Remnant and Terra's LS are both Lingering Spirits. And they can talk. Why would being a black coat prevent MF from talking? Isn't Terra's LS just armor,and isn't Vanitas' Remnant just a dark suit and helmet?

So the fact that MF doesn't talk really doesn't say anything. More importantly, though, as I pointed out, he's more than "just" a black coat. We can see a silhouette of his face beneath the hood. There's a body in there.

The Lingering Sentiment was never intended to be in the game by Nomura anyway. The designers snuck him in. But the fact that MF is the ONLY secret boss who doesn't communicate at ALL.

Actually Vexen required something tangible to make the replica, he collected data from Riku, namely a copy of his memories.
Even if that's a weak argument on your part, I don't think it even matters, to be honest. People see how MF uses a few attacks that TAV use, so they automatically try to rationalize that he somehow must have acquired this ability from them in some way, shape, or form. Or it could simply be that the developers were lazy, and, in addition to a few original attacks, decided to throw in some of TAV's best attacks as well since they're flashy.

So I don't even think you need to explain why MF has those attacks. I mean, take a look at Terra's LS back in KH2FM. He does have a few attacks that are somewhat relevant (eg his Keyblade Rider) but others? The whip? The bow and arrow? His desperation move? We never saw them in BbS, Terra never learned them. So how does the LS know them in KH2FM? It's not important. They were just trying to make a challenging boss.

So would you really think that MF's meteor/fire/wind attacks are important? I doubt it. Had all of his attacks been copies of someone else, that would be one thing. If anything, I would look to more original attacks, like his time reversal.

Yes, but how did Vexen even see those memories to begin with? By fighting and observing Riku during the battle.

But Grass, we HAVE seen these moves used by MF before. That's the difference between him and LS. LS just had a bunch of random moves, but MF's moves have all been seen before, most of them having been used by TAV.

Well now you're just questioning whether MF is even CANON by saying it's possible Terra never fought him. Nomura said in an interview that the only non canon bosses are No Heart and Armor of the Master; MF and VR are canon.

He reverses time, actually. So if you were to extrapolate, and say that he were to reverse time at a greater rate, then he would in theory be traveling to the past. With all the time based themes, including the No Name keyblade, I think it's pretty obvious that it's time travel.

If it were nothing more than what you're describing, then there'd be nothing separating MF from Luxord. Just an element of time. And then you'd have to ask why they would bother including those attacks in the first place or making his keyblade time based, because it sounds pretty pointless.

He does not reverse time. Whenever I see him do that, I see time slowed down to the point where your character (Terra, Aqua, or Ven) is frozen while MF is slowly preparing to attack again.

It's not pointless to give him the power to slow down time. Besides, why give him time travel? That would completely screw up the KH series and give way to far too many possibilities for Xehanort, possibilities that any villain with common sense would easily pursue such as eliminating the very birth of Sora, Riku, and his other enemies.

Uh, that's a pretty convoluted explanation.
And it doesn't add up with how, you know, I'm counting 17 other people who also wore the cloak, and only one of them (Luxord) could manipulate time. If that were the case, they could all do it, and it wouldn't actually be Luxord's element.

How very true.

Wait, how is MF different than LS in your theory? Just because he's a different material doesn't make him a different being. I wouldn't say Vanitas Remnant is a one of a kind simply because his dark suit is different than Terra's armor.

Because MF isn't a replica or sentiment of a single person. In my opinion, he's just an experiment with moves from tons of people.

Again, Vanita's Remnant actually spoke words. Terra's armor just made ominous sounds that Sora had no idea what he was saying. Once he said "Aqua...Ven...", Sora whipped out his Keyblade, even though the armor didn't even move. If Sora understood him, he would have asked him who he was talking about or had a conversation with him like he did with Xemnas in KH 1 FM.


One thing's for sure though...I have to touch up the time manipulation explanation.
 
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Still, it's not like the people on DI would recognize him. He left there decades ago.

I don't think it has to do with recognition so much as it is him just wanting to avoid people period. Why would Mickey, for example, wear the cloak when none of the Organization members have met him? Because it masks his "scent." He didn't meet them and wanted to keep it that way. Similarly, MX, masked by the darkness of the night as well as his cloak, was just going incognito because he didn't want to be spotted, whether anyone would recognize him or not.

The Lingering Sentiment was never intended to be in the game by Nomura anyway. The designers snuck him in.

The designers didn't sneak him in, they were just the ones to suggest it. It has to go through Nomura.

But the fact that MF is the ONLY secret boss who doesn't communicate at ALL.

I don't see how this is a big deal, though.
As I pointed out, we know something is beneath the cloak, we can catch a glimpse of it. So it has nothing to do with MF being a cloak.

Yes, but how did Vexen even see those memories to begin with? By fighting and observing Riku during the battle.

I think the implication is that Vexen literally sampled Riku's memories in the same manner as Xemnas and Marluxia did for Sora. It wasn't a hands-off approach. They didn't get those memories by observation alone.

But Grass, we HAVE seen these moves used by MF before. That's the difference between him and LS. LS just had a bunch of random moves, but MF's moves have all been seen before, most of them having been used by TAV.

First of all, not all of MF's moves have been seen before.
The only ones that I can count are his tornado/meteor/fire moves, as well as the X slash (which is slightly different than Vanitas' attack anyway). Just those four. And even then, the TAV attacks aren't used in the same exact manner. For instance, the when he uses the fire pillars, he's not floating like Aqua. When he uses the tornado, it comes from his body and flies out, whereas with Ven, the tornado just pops up under the enemy.
But, wait. We've seen the invisibility trick before! The Stealth Sneak! MF must have been observing the Stealth Sneak!
Or not.

The fact that there is no discernible pattern in the recycled moves leads me to believe that they're nothing more than just that- recycled moves, stock effects. And anyone trying to make sense of it is just looking at it too deeply.


Well now you're just questioning whether MF is even CANON by saying it's possible Terra never fought him. Nomura said in an interview that the only non canon bosses are No Heart and Armor of the Master; MF and VR are canon.

Not at all, MF can absolutely be canon even if his fights aren't. It simply means that he never showed up at that time, but he DOES exist and WILL be relevant in the near future.

Similar to LS, really. I know Nomura never technically said it wasn't canon (he said the fight "didn't matter"- which can be interpreted that way since the fight itself had no significance). However, despite the canon-status of the fight, LS, either way is a canon CHARACTER.

He does not reverse time. Whenever I see him do that, I see time slowed down to the point where your character (Terra, Aqua, or Ven) is frozen while MF is slowly preparing to attack again.

Uh, yes, he does reverse time. Why does his health regenerate? Because he goes back to before he got hit.
TAV don't visibly go backwards (they freeze in the air), but this is likely because the animation would be too hard to pull off. For instance, what if MF reversed time while they were doing one of their special attacks, or gliding, or dodge rolling, or any other number of animations? That would mean that for every single animation TAV has (which is a huge list), they would have to include twice as many animations in the game, with a second set being backwards. Just for one battle. That's a lot. And time consuming.

MF, on the other hand, DOES go backwards (he uses a stock animation each time), you'll see him go back through being hit. Plus, the music goes in reverse. It's obvious that he reverses time.

It's not pointless to give him the power to slow down time.

How.
You didn't even say how it's not pointless.

Besides, why give him time travel?

I don't think I'd even need to tell you why Terra or MX would want to utilize time travel.

That would completely screw up the KH series and give way to far too many possibilities for Xehanort, possibilities that any villain with common sense would easily pursue such as eliminating the very birth of Sora, Riku, and his other enemies.

Until we better understand the nature of the time traveling, we're not in a position to accuse. For instance, it may be that he can use it for a limited time, or only go so far back.

Because MF isn't a replica or sentiment of a single person. In my opinion, he's just an experiment with moves from tons of people.

Why would you introduce the Lingering Spirits as a new being and, before even really delving into their nature, have a pseudo Lingering Spirit/Replica?
Reminds me of someone talking about a hybrid between the Unversed and Heartless. It just sounds redundant.

Again, Vanita's Remnant actually spoke words. Terra's armor just made ominous sounds that Sora had no idea what he was saying. Once he said "Aqua...Ven...", Sora whipped out his Keyblade, even though the armor didn't even move. If Sora understood him, he would have asked him who he was talking about or had a conversation with him like he did with Xemnas in KH 1 FM.

No, LS spoke.
Those sound effects are just like Xemnas in KH1FM. They're in place of the actual dialogue because they don't want you to hear their voice (since they hadn't picked voice actors at the time and even if they did, it would spoil).
Sora acted just fine. He didn't understand what LS was talking about, but remained on his guard. He talked to Xemnas because Xemnas was actually engaging him in a conversation, LS was just talking to himself.

And I'm guessing they wouldn't want to try to piece together stock voice acting from Sora in order to create a conversation. I mean, Sora never talks in any of the absent silhouette/data fights. By your logic, wouldn't he be saying something like "What's going on?" Or "Roxas?!" or something to that effect? They didn't have HJO for that and decided to use the voice minimally.

If those sound effects were what LS was ACTUALLY saying, that's ludicrous. So he's making a bunch of metallic sounds in some pseudo-language that they translate in the subtitles for the audience?

We hear LS talk at the end of BbS anyway. "Aqua... Ven... One day, I will set this right."
Similar to how he's introduced in KH2FM. "Aqua... Ven..."
 
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chasespicer056

Empathy is Divine
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I don't think it has to do with recognition so much as it is him just wanting to avoid people period. Why would Mickey, for example, wear the cloak when none of the Organization members have met him? Because it masks his "scent." He didn't meet them and wanted to keep it that way. Similarly, MX, masked by the darkness of the night as well as his cloak, was just going incognito because he didn't want to be spotted, whether anyone would recognize him or not.

Who would he be masking his scent from then?

The designers didn't sneak him in, they were just the ones to suggest it. It has to go through Nomura.

My mistake. Didn't realize that.

I don't see how this is a big deal, though.
As I pointed out, we know something is beneath the cloak, we can catch a glimpse of it. So it has nothing to do with MF being a cloak.

I've fought him at least 30 times, and have never seen anything beneath that cloak. And when they're designing the model, they have to put something inside.

I think the implication is that Vexen literally sampled Riku's memories in the same manner as Xemnas and Marluxia did for Sora. It wasn't a hands-off approach. They didn't get those memories by observation alone

Possibly, but it's still just an implication.

How.
You didn't even say how it's not pointless.

Alright, for one thing it's a nice aesthetic and innovative touch for secret bosses in KH. I've never before seen a boss who could actually slow down time like that and keep moving on his own in slow-mo.

And second off, it's better for it to be slowing down time than time traveling. Time traveling will open up far too many doors for the plot to remain believeable. Suddenly it will be possible for Xehanort to prevent the very existence of Riku and Sora, and the only way to prevent this will be to bring in complete deus ex machinas to prevent said destruction from happening.

I don't think I'd even need to tell you why Terra or MX would want to utilize time travel.

As I just said above.

Until we better understand the nature of the time traveling, we're not in a position to accuse. For instance, it may be that he can use it for a limited time, or only go so far back.

We're still assuming he can actually travel through timelines.

Why would you introduce the Lingering Spirits as a new being and, before even really delving into their nature, have a pseudo Lingering Spirit/Replica?
Reminds me of someone talking about a hybrid between the Unversed and Heartless. It just sounds redundant.

Forgive me, i shouldn't have used them interchangeably.

Though that's a good point.

No, LS spoke.
Those sound effects are just like Xemnas in KH1FM. They're in place of the actual dialogue because they don't want you to hear their voice (since they hadn't picked voice actors at the time and even if they did, it would spoil).
Sora acted just fine. He didn't understand what LS was talking about, but remained on his guard. He talked to Xemnas because Xemnas was actually engaging him in a conversation, LS was just talking to himself.

And I'm guessing they wouldn't want to try to piece together stock voice acting from Sora in order to create a conversation. I mean, Sora never talks in any of the absent silhouette/data fights. By your logic, wouldn't he be saying something like "What's going on?" Or "Roxas?!" or something to that effect? They didn't have HJO for that and decided to use the voice minimally.

If those sound effects were what LS was ACTUALLY saying, that's ludicrous. So he's making a bunch of metallic sounds in some pseudo-language that they translate in the subtitles for the audience?

We hear LS talk at the end of BbS anyway. "Aqua... Ven... One day, I will set this right."
Similar to how he's introduced in KH2FM. "Aqua... Ven..."

Grass, LS can't actually speak understandable words! if he could, Sora would have been bombarding him with questions or at least reacted when he said the name Xehanort. But no, he just stood there with the same expression on his face the whole time.

And isn't it so CONVENIENT that LS appears to "talk" once the screen fades black even though he didn't make a single noise or utter a single word when he fought Xehanort, not even when you're killed in the battle when playing?

It just doesn't add up.
 
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