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NEW Theory on BBS:FM Secret Episode



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Fractured_Heart628

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But, another thing to consider is that when Roxas went to Castle Oblivion with Axel. I get that Ven's heart might have been reacting to Ven's body and maybe also to Sora's body. I know this will sound rhetorical. But, in Kingdom Hearts II DiZ said his (Sora's) heart is returning. So, was Roxas carrying two hearts within him throughout Days and in the beginning of KHII, Ven's and later on Sora's (after he went asleep)?

But, that theory is controversial.
First, Ven's heart went into Sora's at the end of BBS.
So, how could Ven wake up without his heart?
Second, Roxas had no memory about what happened to him to how he got into Twilight Town. Ven and Roxas may have similar clothing, but their different. And, how could Ven lose his memory yet again?
How did he lose his armor?
 

HeartSeams

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But, another thing to consider is that when Roxas went to Castle Oblivion with Axel. I get that Ven's heart might have been reacting to Ven's body and maybe also to Sora's body. I know this will sound rhetorical. But, in Kingdom Hearts II DiZ said his (Sora's) heart is returning. So, was Roxas carrying two hearts within him throughout Days and in the beginning of KHII, Ven's and later on Sora's (after he went asleep)?
I think he meant "returning from sleep". Because Sora's heart was sleeping from not having his memories, so the more the memories returned, the closer Sora's heart was to returning.
 

chasespicer056

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But, another thing to consider is that when Roxas went to Castle Oblivion with Axel. I get that Ven's heart might have been reacting to Ven's body and maybe also to Sora's body. I know this will sound rhetorical. But, in Kingdom Hearts II DiZ said his (Sora's) heart is returning. So, was Roxas carrying two hearts within him throughout Days and in the beginning of KHII, Ven's and later on Sora's (after he went asleep)?

But, that theory is controversial.
First, Ven's heart went into Sora's at the end of BBS.
So, how could Ven wake up without his heart?
Second, Roxas had no memory about what happened to him to how he got into Twilight Town. Ven and Roxas may have similar clothing, but their different. And, how could Ven lose his memory yet again?
How did he lose his armor?

1. Yen Sid said that if Ven's heart returns he could wake up. Ven's heart might have been getting stronger and more self-sustaining during the ten years it was resting.

2. Roxas was born in Twilight Town. There's nothing to remember before that.

Diz just meant Sora was regaining the memories he needed to wake up.
 

Box_ghost

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I don't agree on that at all. Nobodies don't have hearts and yet they obviously have an identity.

No, they create a new identity that is reminiscent of their old identity. That is the point of the "X"

Without his heart, Axel is not Lea. Once he lost his heart, he ceased to be Lea, which is his identity. The "X" was added to the new being as a part of his new identity"

I never said they didn't have identities. I'm saying that the heart is their id card to be their other.

I would be more likely to agree that memories are the biggest part in an identity over the heart.

Memories help make up part of the identity, but isn't the identity itself.

The heart is proof of life

Nowhere had I said otherwise.

it isn't proof of an identity.

It doesn't contradict hearts = pol

In CoM Marluxia instructed Nami to break Sora's heart by removing all of his memories. Without his memories he would be a lifeless puppet. I would say losing your memories is losing your identity, not your heart.

Your memories make up a part of your identity.

Except it didn't.

That was my point.

They have different identities. They have different personalties, different memories, different experiences, different views, etc. They are not the same. Roxas doesn't have Ven's identity, he has his face.

Well technically, unless Ven's memories left his heart, they're in there. Which technically gives him Ven's memories, but thing is, they do have similar personalities. Experiences are out of their control, which is moot in your counterpoint and their views are relatively similar.

Both went out of their way for someone they cared for.

Ven - Terra
Roxas - Xion

For people who are nothing alike, they sure do do things that are alike.

But I am not saying that they are the same.

I never said it wasn't. But just because he looks like Ven doesn't mean he is his Nobody, or that he even has his identity.

Technically yes it does, but I was moving in a different direction with that.

My point is that Roxas' former identities is both Sora and Ven. The Ultimania seems to back this up, which is canon, which brings me to the question:

What's your problem?

That would be great except Nomura didn't write that. The only parts of the Ultimania that actually come from Nomura are the interviews.

Okay, the person who wrote that feels that way and Nomura concurs, otherwise he'd have said otherwise and contrary to the statement. Lord knows he has a penchant for contradictory info.
 

HeartSeams

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No, they create a new identity that is reminiscent of their old identity.
Uh... that's STILL an identity.

I never said they didn't have identities.
You said the heart is the identity in KH. If Nobodies don't have hearts how could they have identities? It certainly was what you were implying with that statement.

Memories help make up part of the identity, but isn't the identity itself.
Which is why i said it was the biggest part in making an identity...

Well technically, unless Ven's memories left his heart, they're in there. Which technically gives him Ven's memories
Completely inaccessible to Roxas. Plus, evidence shows they were more likely in Xion anyway.

they do have similar personalities.
I don't feel like they do. They treat everything differently and even Nomura said the differences in their personality are clear. Ven is far more like Sora than he is like Roxas.

Experiences are out of their control, which is moot in your counterpoint and their views are relatively similar.
My point was that all of those things help make up an identity. Whether or not it is "in their control" is irrelevant, really.

Both went out of their way for someone they cared for.
Are we thinking of the same characters? Roxas ran away from the person he cared about and then killed her. Ven met his demise for the people he cared about. It's completely different.

For people who are nothing alike, they sure do do things that are alike.
This is a very weak point. A lot characters in KH do things for each other, but that doesn't mean they all have the same or even similar identies.

But I am not saying that they are the same.
Except you were. You said Roxas had Ven's Identity, which would make them the same basically because an identity is pretty much everything a person is.

The Ultimania seems to back this up, which is canon, which brings me to the question
I disagree.

What's your problem?
I don't have one.

Okay, the person who wrote that feels that way and Nomura concurs, otherwise he'd have said otherwise and contrary to the statement. Lord knows he has a penchant for contradictory info.
You're assuming Nomura looks over every single guidebook? Yeah, right.
 

Box_ghost

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You said the heart is the identity in KH. If Nobodies don't have hearts how could they have identities? It certainly was what you were implying with that statement.

And again, it seems my point falls JUST out of your reach.

Completely inaccessible to Roxas. Plus, evidence shows they were more likely in Xion anyway.

Inaccessible is not what's on trial here, but this point is unimportant anyway.

I don't feel like they do. They treat everything differently and even Nomura said the differences in their personality are clear. Ven is far more like Sora than he is like Roxas.

From what I saw, Roxas and Ven acted similarly.

My point was that all of those things help make up an identity. Whether or not it is "in their control" is irrelevant, really.

agreed.

Are we thinking of the same characters? Roxas ran away from the person he cared about and then killed her. Ven met his demise for the people he cared about. It's completely different.

Well he didn't run away from her.

Except you were. You said Roxas had Ven's Identity, which would make them the same basically because an identity is pretty much everything a person is.

[facepalm]
I was using Ven's heart as an example to reinforce the point of Ven being one of Roxas' others.
Again, this isn't that hard you know.

I disagree.

Okay, prove the Ultimania isn't canon.

I don't have one.

Clearly. Do you track my posts down and argue with them for the sake of arguing?

You're assuming Nomura looks over every single guidebook? Yeah, right.

You're assuming that something like the identity of Roxas' past lives aren't important and wouldn't be brought up to the director. And that's a silly thing to assume anyway; that he wouldn't even skim the Ultimania in regards to an already complicated character's background?

Yeah right.
 

HeartSeams

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And again, it seems my point falls JUST out of your reach.
perhaps you should instead work on how to illustrate your point more clearly then, instead of pretending that you're always above someone?

From what I saw, Roxas and Ven acted similarly.
Well, I guess we just disagree on that one then because I certainly didn't see it playing through BBS and Days.

Well he didn't run away from her.
Certainly didn't run to her, either.

I was using Ven's heart as an example to reinforce the point of Ven being one of Roxas' others.
Thing was though, this isn't even what we were originally arguing/discussing. We were talking about your comments saying that Roxas is to Ven what Nami is to Kairi even though that is a poor comparison, because the situations are very different. I never disagreed that Roxas and Ven were obviously deeply connected, I was just saying using Nami and Kairi as an example of that was kind of poor.

Okay, prove the Ultimania isn't canon.
I don't have to prove they aren't canon to say that I don't hold them as canon. At the end of the day, the games are what I consider canon the most. Anything else is just secondary to that. And given how Nomura didn't even write those parts of the Ultimania that people just looooove to use and say he did, I don't see why I should consider them precedent.

Clearly. Do you track my posts down and argue with them for the sake of arguing?
No. I just go into active threads to make posts and discuss the series because I actually -like- this series. And I'm always hoping it will actually open a decent discussion instead of this.

You're assuming that something like the identity of Roxas' past lives aren't important and wouldn't be brought up to the director.
I'm assuming if they had been brought up to him, it would have been in an interview. Not that it even matters, because, again, I was never denying that there was a deep connection between Ven and Roxas in the first place. I just don't like when people use Nomura for everything, and, even worse, when they use something that he didn't even exactly say (and then cling onto the wording of that translation without even realizing how subjective translating is) like it is the say all end all.
 

Sephiroth0812

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My point is that Roxas' former identities is both Sora and Ven.

Nope, that's totally wrong, Roxas has his own identity, he's neither Sora nor Ven, that was already confirmed long ago.
Roxas has no "former" identity of Sora because they co-existed and no "former" identity of Ven since Ven absolutely played not an inch of a role in his creation.

The only thing Roxas got from Ven are his physical looks, not more.
He highly probably also carried Ven's injured heart inside him, which allowed him to experience real emotions by sapping them from Ven's inactive heart.

The identity (or also called Sense of self) which differentiates existences is formed by memories!!!
That's also why the Rku Replica and Xion had own senses of self, because they formed their own memories .
Roxas didn't had a single one to fall back to so he developed his own sense of self, which is simply and plain Roxas, no Sora and no Ven. That's also why he's so stubbornly independent and yearns for an own independent life.
He developed own memories distinct from the one he originated from (Sora), as did Naminé, that's what makes them both so special.
 

Box_ghost

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perhaps you should instead work on how to illustrate your point more clearly then, instead of pretending that you're always above someone?

I kinda spelled it out but whatever.

Thing was though, this isn't even what we were originally arguing/discussing. We were talking about your comments saying that Roxas is to Ven what Nami is to Kairi even though that is a poor comparison, because the situations are very different. I never disagreed that Roxas and Ven were obviously deeply connected, I was just saying using Nami and Kairi as an example of that was kind of poor.

While I see that statement as true, your view is duly noted.

I don't have to prove they aren't canon to say that I don't hold them as canon. At the end of the day, the games are what I consider canon the most.

If that's the case, Heartless were retconned in BBS.

And given how Nomura didn't even write those parts of the Ultimania that people just looooove to use and say he did, I don't see why I should consider them precedent.

Even still, they're official info from an official source.

No. I just go into active threads to make posts and discuss the series because I actually -like- this series. And I'm always hoping it will actually open a decent discussion instead of this.

I'm having fun :]
But for the record, I do not think you're stupid.

I'm assuming if they had been brought up to him, it would have been in an interview. I just don't like when people use Nomura for everything, and, even worse, when they use something that he didn't even exactly say (and then cling onto the wording of that translation without even realizing how subjective translating is) like it is the say all end all.

The thing about the line I brought up is that it is some pretty specific text.
Even if by some chance, someone messed up the translation, that's a pretty big mess up.

Nope, that's totally wrong, Roxas has his own identity, he's neither Sora nor Ven, that was already confirmed long ago.

I said nothing to the contrary. I said former.
lrn2readplz

Roxas has no "former" identity of Sora because they co-existed and no "former" identity of Ven since Ven absolutely played not an inch of a role in his creation.

You're joking right?
You take the X out of Roxas' name and rearrange the lettering. What do you get?

SORAAAAAAAAAAAAA
[Oh yeah, shit just got real]
But seriously, if Sora isn't Roxas' former identity, then why is Sora's heart able to access Roxas' memories?

That and the fact that Roxas is LITERALLY the body and soul Sora used to bathe when he was 10, which would mean that before he was created, Roxas was a part of Sora, his former identity.

The only thing Roxas got from Ven are his physical looks, not more.

Well, if we wanna get technical, Roxas got his looks from Sora who got his looks from Ven.

He highly probably also carried Ven's injured heart inside him, which allowed him to experience real emotions by sapping them from Ven's inactive heart.

Well duh. That's confirmed. But then again, Square's been implying that Roxas has a heart since 04, well before the idea of Ven was even thought up.

The identity (or also called Sense of self) which differentiates existences is formed by memories!!!

Self Awareness=/=Identity.
Please stop noising at me.

Roxas didn't had a single one to fall back to so he developed his own sense of self, which is simply and plain Roxas, no Sora and no Ven. That's also why he's so stubbornly independent and yearns for an own independent life.

Roxas has no memories of being Sora. True. At least you got something right!

He developed own memories distinct from the one he originated from (Sora), as did Naminé, that's what makes them both so special.

Memories themselves aren't your identity. It's the heart. Why the heart?
Because without your heart, you can't prove you exist.

Lea = Being with heart.
Axel = Being without heart
According to you Axel =/= Lea

But wait a second if your logic is that Axel =/= Lea and Axel remembers being Lea, that means he has his memories. And since according to you, memories = identity, that would make Axel = Lea.

PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO COME AT ME WITH YOUR NONSENSE.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Box_ghost said:
You're joking right?
You take the X out of Roxas' name and rearrange the lettering. What do you get?

SORAAAAAAAAAAAAA
[Oh yeah, shit just got real]
But seriously, if Sora isn't Roxas' former identity, then why is Sora's heart able to access Roxas' memories?

That's just a name created from the being he originated from, nothing more.

Please enlighten me...since when was Sora ever able to access Roxas's own memories? It was the other way around while Roxas existed due to Naminé's and Xions meddling.

Box_ghost said:
Self Awareness=/=Identity.
Please stop noising at me.
Excuse me, but Self-Awareness =/= sense of self...
Sense of self is the identity as it enables a being to identify itself and distinguish itself from others.

But granted, maybe I'm mixing up some things here who are treated differently in english since it's not my native language.
Also, I understand noising as writing with Caps-Lock, while making words bold is to emphasize things.

Box_ghost said:
Memories themselves aren't your identity. It's the heart. Why the heart?
Because without your heart, you can't prove you exist.

Lea = Being with heart.
Axel = Being without heart
According to you Axel =/= Lea

But wait a second if your logic is that Axel =/= Lea and Axel remembers being Lea, that means he has his memories. And since according to you, memories = identity, that would make Axel = Lea.

The heart can't be the identity or nobodies wouldn't have one...sorry but that's nonsense.
Memories seem to be the most important thing in KH in general, as a heart is nothing without memories. A heart without memories collapses => best example the Riku Replica.
Furthermore, Marluxia wanted to completely erase Sora's memories so to destroy his "identity", so that he could rebuilt Sora as a puppet afterwards.

It's better not to bring Axel or any other Org Member in a equation which involves either Naminé or Roxas, as one can't compare apples with pears. Axel/Lea or any other Org Member besides Xemnas (who is another special case in an other way compared to Roxas & Naminé) are normal nobodies who didn't even co-exist with the beings they originated from once.

No need to go capslock...I never intended to sound offensive.
If it came across that way I apologize.
 

Box_ghost

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That's just a name created from the being he originated from, nothing more.

Roxas used to be Sora. Its a canon fact.

Please enlighten me...since when was Sora ever able to access Roxas's own memories? It was the other way around while Roxas existed due to Naminé's and Xions meddling.

Chain of memories. Sora was access the memories of Twilight Town from Roxas' memories.

Excuse me, but Self-Awareness =/= sense of self...
Sense of self is the identity as it enables a being to identify itself and distinguish itself from others.

Sense of awareness =/= identity.

But granted, maybe I'm mixing up some things here who are treated differently in english since it's not my native language.
Also, I understand noising as writing with Caps-Lock, while making words bold is to emphasize things.

Don't be angry, I'm not being mad I'm being silly.

The heart can't be the identity or nobodies wouldn't have one.

They lose their old identity and from there they cannot be that old identity so they adopt a new one. Okay I should have been clear in saying that they do have an identity, but not the one they used to have.

Memories seem to be the most important thing in KH in general, as a heart is nothing without memories. A heart without memories collapses => best example the Riku Replica.

Memories help make up who the person is [identity] but aren't the identity itself.

It's better not to bring Axel or any other Org Member in a equation which involves either Naminé or Roxas, as one can't compare apples with pears. Axel/Lea or any other Org Member besides Xemnas (who is another special case in an other way compared to Roxas & Naminé) are normal nobodies who didn't even co-exist with the beings they originated from once.

I'm not talking about them coexisting.

No need to go capslock...I never intended to sound offensive.
If it came across that way I apologize.

My bad. I didn't think you'd get offended. But I wasn't trying to be offensive, just silly.
Keep it light-hearted.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Box_ghost said:
Roxas used to be Sora. Its a canon fact.
Rly?
To me it's more like Roxas came from Sora, not that he was him, that's why I said not to bring the other nobodies into the equation as Kairi's interference and therefore restoring Sora makes this case completely different.
Also, Roxas himself would be very upset if one would say that above directly into his face...lol.
"I am ME, nobody else!" *gggg*

Box_ghost said:
Chain of memories. Sora was access the memories of Twilight Town from Roxas' memories.
Uh yeah, Sora accessed them, but that doesn't mean he actually knew what these memories were yet that they weren't his own. Vexen created them due to accessing Roxas's memories through the psychic link that Sora and Roxas share.

Sense of awareness =/= identity.
I'm still not quite sure what the big difference is, as I learned once that if a person is "aware" and able to form a sense of self that person automatically gains an own identity and any other "identities" the person may "hail" from are entirely irrelevant.

Don't be angry, I'm not being mad I'm being silly.
Oh I see, so we both misunderstood, as I was rather puzzled than being angry...lol.

They lose their old identity and from there they cannot be that old identity so they adopt a new one. Okay I should have been clear in saying that they do have an identity, but not the one they used to have.
Memories help make up who the person is [identity] but aren't the identity itself.
Taking it that way would mean the "identity" is splitted between memories and heart, yet still memories are an integral part of a heart and an existence.
For normal nobodies that supposed "new" identity is however just a "transition" from their old one since they effectively remember anything from before and their "old" existence/identity is out of the picture.
Yet for Roxas and Naminé no such "transition" happens because the ones they hail from are still there co-existing with them, that's why this part is so important and why actually both of them become actually independent persons on their own, yet they can't exist independent at the moment because they call no part of an existence their own.
Naminé:
heart => created from Kairi's, never had an own one.
soul & body => from Sora, yet couldn't even use them because Roxas had them.
So what remains that defines Naminé's sense of self and allows her to live on?
Her own memories. The memories she made on her own for herself are what allow her to retain an own sense of self.

Roxas:
heart => created from Sora's, carried Ven's injured one, but none is his own.
soul & body => both "borrowed" from Sora.
Same question as for Naminé....
...it's Roxas's own memories that still define him and make him independent from Sora, it were also those memories which enabled him to manifest himself to challenge Sora in KH2.

Also in KH 2 it is explicitly said by both of them that they retain their independent senses of self due to remembering the way they imagined themselves, despite being physically in Kairi and Sora up to now.

But maybe we were also talking about completely different time points...as I was mainly referring to Roxas's and Naminé's current status and why they count as independent existences from Sora and Kairi despite them not being really independent at the moment.

Keep it light-hearted.
I sure do...we both misinterpreted something here I think...;)
 
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