No one dies in KH

[Youniquee]

Re: Non one dies in KH

I think maybe people are really taking this whole ' Nobody can die' thing in KH a bit too far. You don't have to listen to everything Nomura says. Make your own judgements, not someone esle.

But Nomura is the god of KH? If he says something is canon or not canon, it has an impact, because he's the creator?

 

[alexis.anagram]

Re: Non one dies in KH

I think maybe people are really taking this whole ' Nobody can die' thing in KH a bit too far. You don't have to listen to everything Nomura says. Make your own judgements, not someone esle.

Well, considering I just read an interview with him in which he stated the concept of death does not exist in KH, and he's the creator of the story...I'm not sure how we would know any better than he does. Yes, Nomura can be coy and flaky, but that's a pretty direct statement.

Trust me, I was just arguing a couple of days ago that people can die in KH and I'd really prefer that be the case. I'm not sure anymore, though.

 

[OathkeeperRoxas XIII]

Re: Non one dies in KH

But Nomura is the god of KH? If he says something is canon or not canon, it has an impact, because he's the creator?

Just because he made the series, doesn't make make him god. He's a human being like you and mr.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Non one dies in KH

But Nomura is the god of KH? If he says something is canon or not canon, it has an impact, because he's the creator?

This.

Nomura invents the mythology of the series and if people can be revived they can...no bitching from parts of the fanbase will change that. It is HIS story and he sets the rules.


It is also by far not new that something like this is possible in a japanese-based mythos.
I.e. Naoko Takeuchi had also plenty of this in Sailor Moon, could search for more examples but it's already getting late...

 

[MegaWallflower]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Just because he made the series, doesn't make make him god. He's a human being like you and mr.

It kind of does. He made the characters, decides what they do, makes the scenarios, sculpts the worlds... Not alone, of course, but he's in charge and what he decides is canon, is canon. He has far more influence on the story than you or me.

The only one who can negate what he says to be canon is himself, really. So unless he decides to introduce the true "concept of death", no one will probably "die".

 

[loke13]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Well, considering I just read an interview with him in which he stated the concept of death does not exist in KH, and he's the creator of the story...I'm not sure how we would know any better than he does. Yes, Nomura can be coy and flaky, but that's a pretty direct statement.

But the concept of "no one dies in KH" (Which I think people are taking a bit too literal) isn't a a new concept it's been around since KH1.

 

[OathkeeperRoxas XIII]

Re: Non one dies in KH

It kind of does. He made the characters, decides what they do, makes the scenarios, sculpts the worlds... Not alone, of course, but he's in charge and what he decides is canon, is canon. He has far more influence on the story than you or me.

The only one who can negate what he says to be canon is himself, really. So unless he decides to introduce the true "concept of death", no one will probably "die".

I kinda meant they can't take everything he says and freak out about it. Ask about the nobodies can't age thing and you'll know what happened after.

 

[Reagan Rayden]

Re: Non one dies in KH

First off,

It's cute when people use this phrase in an argument. It's totally not belittling at all.

the order in which heartless and nobody are defeated is meaningless, it works both ways.

I never said it did. You just confused the meaning of the word "order" that I used.

Secondly, if there is no nobody it is even easier because then only the heartless needs to be defeated to free the heart and bring the original person back

If feel like you just made that up. It would be nice if there were proof to that other than blind assumption.

Oh, and on a personal note, these complaints about that people should stay dead are starting to annoy me...it has been known for several years now that the KH Universe doesn't work this way and that losing your heart doesn't equal death as we know it in the real world.
Xehanort and the Org members, Ventus or any other of those we saw up to now, no one of them "died" because the thing what we know as "death" around here does not apply.

The concept of death is something you should care about. The whole concept of sacrifice is lost if you can just continually bring people back from those sacrifices. The death of a certain FFVII character was one example of why death is an important and effective way to create drama in a story.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Non one dies in KH

But the concept of "no one dies in KH" (Which I think people are taking a bit too literal) isn't a a new concept it's been around since KH1.

Exactly, the concept has been around ever since the very friggin' first installment of the series. Whole worlds got already revived together with their inhabitants or what do you people think the massive meteor-shower which filled the sky with stars in the ending of KH 1 with Kairi looking on was?

Seriously, I don't get what some people here are bitching about...permanence isn't the ultimate answer to make a story good.

Also, "no one dies" should be better transformed into "no one is truly gone for eternity", a "cessation of existence" doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean everyone can be put back into the RoL as pleased. In order to revive someone (or "return to the world" aka Birth by Sleep) there have to be conditions to fulfill.

We don't even know what the whole process involves right now so I would advise a bit more level-headedness.

 

[alexis.anagram]

Re: Non one dies in KH

But the concept of "no one dies in KH" (Which I think people are taking a bit too literal) isn't a a new concept it's been around since KH1.

The concept of reviving people under very special circumstances which only specific people were ever indicated to be capable of is not new.
The idea that pretty much no one dies ever and everyone can be brought back no matter what is becoming increasingly prevalent now, with DDD and the Realm of Sleep.
KH1 had Clayton, who appeared to die. The logic of the series as it's developing would state that his heart is actually just residing in the RoS (or, perhaps, RoD) waiting to be brought back to the RoL. It's not only sort of a retcon of everything we thought we knew, it's an unwelcome one because it demeans the necessity of the battle Sora and Riku are fighting; to save people and worlds. Which can't actually be lost. What.

I hope people are taking it too literally and that it's actually not as cut and dry as this, believe me.

 

[Reagan Rayden]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Spoiler Show

For me it's turning into

Spoiler Show

[video=youtube;7FYTc55nGEI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FYTc55nGEI[/video]

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Non one dies in KH

It's cute when people use this phrase in an argument. It's totally not belittling at all.

I never said it did. You just confused the meaning of the word "order" that I used.

If feel like you just made that up. It would be nice if there were proof to that other than blind assumption.

The concept of death is something you should care about. The whole concept of sacrifice is lost if you can just continually bring people back from those sacrifices. The death of a certain FFVII character was one example of why death is an important and effective way to create drama in a story.

Be ensured that this was not intentioned.

Oh, ok then.

I don't make up random things, to be specific, that a nobody is complicating the whole process was already stated in the Director's Secret Report XIII for KH 2 Final Mix, as was the fact that when only a heartless is there it is easier to bring back the whole person:

Spoiler Show

When the Heartless are defeated, what becomes of the stolen hearts? Also, when members of Organization XIII and other Nobodies are defeated, do they return to their original form?

When Heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the Organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after Heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody, when there is no container for the heart it resorts to a state of suspension.
In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the Heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.

No one speaks of "continually bringing back" and a sacrifice doesn't lose its meaning just because it isn't permanent...or do you want to argue that Sora's sacrifice in KH 1 was meaningless because Kairi brought him back?
Or is Goofy taking that boulder for Mickey any less dramatic because he didn't stay down? Or Ventus sacrificing his own heart any less painful and traumatic for him and his friends just because it can be remedied some day?
Riku destroyed the Destiny Islands and its inhabitants in KH 1...it got brought back at the end and guess what? The mere act that he did it haunted Riku for much of CoM despite the destruction not permanent.
There can be enough drama created, permanence is not needed for it!

The concept of reviving people under very special circumstances which only specific people were ever indicated to be capable of is not new.
The idea that pretty much no one dies ever and everyone can be brought back no matter what is becoming increasingly prevalent now, with DDD and the Realm of Sleep.
KH1 had Clayton, who appeared to die. The logic of the series as it's developing would state that his heart is actually just residing in the RoS (or, perhaps, RoD) waiting to be brought back to the RoL. It's not only sort of a retcon of everything we thought we knew, it's an unwelcome one because it demeans the necessity of the battle Sora and Riku are fighting; to save people and worlds. Which can't actually be lost. What.

I hope people are taking it too literally and that it's actually not as cut and dry as this, believe me.

But that bolded part there hasn't become invalid yet...the worlds in KH 1 were only revived when the Door to Darkness was closed which was a hard task nonetheless.

Like I said, replace "no one dies" with "not gone completely" and it becomes easier. Not even we western cultures think that there's a final end. Things like the spirit or soul that are eternal/immortal are also known to us.
That everyone can be brought back does not automatically lead to will be brought back because, as I said before, we don't know the full conditions for how a revival is even to happen.

 

[Ordeith]

Re: Non one dies in KH

To end any arguments to the contrary, I direct your attention to Exhibit A, Clayton:



Begin watching at 2:54, and you'll clearly see Clayton (or what remains of him) fatally crushed by a giant chameleon. His squashed body is clearly visible beneath the Stealth Sneak's. Dead.

I kid, I kid--but it just goes to show you that even if they don't technically die, their "deaths" can still be quite violent.

 

[XIII Heartless]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Reminds me of Yugi and the Shadow Realm *chuckle*

 

[Ikkin]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Like I said, replace "no one dies" with "not gone completely" and it becomes easier. Not even we western cultures think that there's a final end. Things like the spirit or soul that are eternal/immortal are also known to us.
That everyone can be brought back does not automatically lead to will be brought back because, as I said before, we don't know the full conditions for how a revival is even to happen.

This. So much.

The series' canon gives every indication that the "death of the body" exists. Riku-Replica explicitly discussed death while he lay dying. The Secret Ansem Reports included an explanation of the difference between the loss of a heart and the death of the body (ie. that death involves the soul leaving the body). Master Xehanort spoke of death more than any other character in the series, and was motivated in large part by the avoidance of death-by-old-age.

I find it completely absurd that Nomura can basically crib off of the Christian concept of death as a sleep from which one may eventually awaken*, and the entire KH fanbase assumes this means no one can ever die ever. o_0 How else are they supposed to get rid of Xehanort once and for all?


* Guess what euphemism the New Testament uses to refer to dead people? "Those who have fallen asleep." Given the Christian symbolism used elsewhere in this series, I doubt this is coincidental.

 

[noshade15]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Posting this thread made me realize something... just how ridiculous this whole series has gone to. I guarantee a new comer to the series wouldn't know what the **** is going on even just by playing KH2. It made just barely enough sense in KH2 and I think everyone loved BBS because it brought everything together. But now... we have "Dream eaters" whatever, resurrected characters, and just totally confusing the heck out of people. The main "loss of life" (death) concept has not and probably will not be explained well in the series for anybody. Instead of having Nomura confuse us in the game and making statements in interviews that only hardcore fans pay attention to. He and Square should have made this perfectly clear considering how important it is now this far into the series. The game has everything to do with the heart and now here's my biggest question... when KH3 comes around how will Xehenort permanently be defeated? Without confusing us, KH3 better have a lot of answers for everything in the series.

 

[Ordeith]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Posting this thread made me realize something... just how ridiculous this whole series has gone to. I guarantee a new comer to the series wouldn't know what the **** is going on even just by playing KH2. It made just barely enough sense in KH2 and I think everyone loved BBS because it brought everything together. But now... we have "Dream eaters" whatever, resurrected characters, and just totally confusing the heck out of people. The main "loss of life" (death) concept has not and probably will not be explained well in the series for anybody. Instead of having Nomura confuse us in the game and making statements in interviews that only hardcore fans pay attention to. He and Square should have made this perfectly clear considering how important it is now this far into the series. The game has everything to do with the heart and now here's my biggest question... when KH3 comes around how will Xehenort permanently be defeated? Without confusing us, KH3 better have a lot of answers for everything in the series.

On the contrary, Dream Drop Distance looks as though it will arrange everything into some semblance of order: By the end of the game, all of the confusing Xehanorts, Somebodies, and harbored hearts will have been put in presentable order for Kingdom Hearts III. This, at least, seems to be the developers' intention.

Birth by Sleep only complicated matters further, creating as many (if not more) questions than it answered.

How else are they supposed to get rid of Xehanort once and for all?

Drop a chameleon on him; that seems to work.

 

[noshade15]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Haha I can agree with this

 

[blueheart]

Re: Non one dies in KH

This is Nomura's fault for deciding to listen to fans and have all or some Org13 members come back.
For MX coming back, that could have been excused as him being a maniacal genius who found some way to come back from his many back up plans.

 

[The_Dream_Shield]

Re: Non one dies in KH

I don't feel any of the logic KH uses confusing nor silly, imo its all really basic (less complex then most other theories at least). I actually really like the way the logic is sculpted, and how the varying sources shape what happens, like someone said above referencing the Reports, as well as character discussion. I find it all really sentimental, the story and logic, its one of the things that kept me in the series, and what still makes me such a big fan. Nomura may have filled up a plot hole or two with the release of another game, but I love how in the end everything is so coherent, and I have yet to see anything pulled out of absolutely no where.

Also Clayton's death is still technically less violent then his movie death xD The Jaguar however...was beat to death by a GIANT Key, Shield, and Staff and somewhat singed by Fire....yeah. xD