Nobodies and Suicide. . . "The Easy Way Out"

[The Lionheart]

I've been thinking about the whole idea of Kingdom Hearts, nobodies, and the idea that nobodies want Kingdom Hearts in order to get their hearts back.

Now that we know (through Braig) that nobodies have their powers before their heart is taken (a.k.a. their original selves), it seems to me that nobodies have no real reason to create Kingdom Hearts. They gain nothing they didn't have in their former lives, and lose any ability to feel emotion.

But of course, that's exactly what they want to get back, to recover these lost emotions. But to me, it seems that instead of manipulating a keyblader into killing thousands of heartless, they could simply manipulate him to kill the heartless that have the nobody in question's heart.

What I'm really getting at is, didn't Xemnas know that Sora killed the heartless Ansem? And wouldn't Xemnas be able to connect the dots and figure out that Ansem was his heartless (which I'm pretty sure HE ALREADY KNEW), and realize that all he has to do is "die" to get his heart back?

tl;dr, I feel like Xemnas could have committed suicide and accomplished way more than he did by going through all of that trouble in Kingdom Hearts II. And really, in the end, he accomplished exactly what he wanted to by having Sora kill him.

 

[In_a_Quandary]

Xemnas' goal, unlike the other Nobodies, is not to reclaim his heart - it is to merge with Kingdom Hearts and use its power to recreate the worlds in his image. He views emotion as a burden - a form of enslavement. Reuniting with his heart is hence counterproductive, especially since he can remain in his detached state and wield the heart's power instead of letting it wield him.

 

[The Lionheart]

Xemnas' goal, unlike the other Nobodies, is not to reclaim his heart - it is to merge with Kingdom Hearts and use its power to recreate the worlds in his image. He views emotion as a burden - a form of enslavement. Reuniting with his heart is hence counterproductive, especially since he can remain in his detached state and wield the heart's power instead of letting it wield him.

Hmm I see, I guess that's something I missed out on.

But was it like that for the rest of the nobodies? Maybe I just misunderstood the whole Organization, but I felt like their goal was to get access to Kingdom Hearts so they could get their hearts back, not simply utilize their power.

 

[In_a_Quandary]

The other Nobodies genuinely want their hearts back (with the exception of perhaps Xaldin); it is only Xemnas who has a different goal (that his subordinates do not know of). Either ways, completing Kingdom Hearts works out for all of them.

And I'd imagine it'd be pretty difficult to isolate the specific Heartless that harbours [insert Nobody's] heart, hence the mass collection.

 

[Veriun]

The Organization didn't want their old hearts back. They wanted new ones, probably because, as seen with Roxas/Sora and Kairi/Naminé, Nobodies aren't the person they once were. Getting their old hearts back would make their original self "take over".

 

[Rabgix]

They wanted to be there own person, not the old person.

 

[Wahm-bulence]

Well I remember a conversation in Days I think it was between Axel and Roxas... How Roxas didn't really know what a heart was, and Axel was saying that it would make sense when they complete Kingdom Hearts...

I'm pretty sure the rest of them just think that the they want to get thier hearts back, or at least that's what they've been told is the most important thing.

 

[Xenin]

What else can be said that hasn't? Xemnas had a secret agenda and was using the Org in a sense. All the Org. members wanted to be there own person not there old selves because they's be gone in a way. Plus they were told they wanted this and with no true emotions of there own they just follow what they think is real, hence what Xemnas told them they wanted.

 

[gelandporn]

They wanted to be there own person, not the old person.

^ This.

They didn't want their old hearts back.

—The initial members of the Organization abandoned their hearts intentionally? Why, now, do they collect hearts?
NOMURA: The reason is to have a ‘complete existence.’ KH1’s Ansem (Xehanort, stealing this name) had a purpose, and realizing that he had transcended being a human, turned into a Heartless. Xemnas remembers that purpose, but as a Nobody, ‘an empty shell,’ collects hearts to become complete. The other members of the Organization have their own expectations, but are there mainly for the purpose of collecting hearts to complete Kingdom Hearts, as only Xemnas stared ahead and made it a priority. It is natural that Nobodies, who do not have hearts, demand hearts, though it may seem that Sora’s defeating them is unnecessary, the Organization members don’t look for their own hearts, but collect many from unspecified persons, and use them instead, placing the hearts in a situation where they cannot go back to their origin.

My friends! Remember why we have organized--all the things we hope to
achieve. The strength of the human heart is vast. Soon, though...we will have
gained power over it! Never again will it...have power over us.

They wanted to use hearts for the sake of power, but felt that its sentimentality (ironically) made their hearts weak, which is why they shed them in the first place.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

^ This.

They didn't want their old hearts back.

It's a little bit vague for confirmation, though. You can easily take it as his way of explaining that they don't look for their own Hearts, they take others' and let them reside in their replicated KH (let's not forget that they take orders and explanations from the boss, or other higher-ups with scientific background). Not that they refuse their old pieces; nowhere does it say that. I would think it difficult to even succeed in searching for what they contained before. Don't Hearts, if we are to believe that they were normally "killed", go in a state of suspension somewhere? Natural Heartless don't give Hearts. It's the Emblems, and they are artificially made.

Ansem Heartless himself was natural, just a more special type that regained thought and shape. And his vessel didn't have Xehanort's Heart, as far as we know.

They wanted to use hearts for the sake of power, but felt that its sentimentality (ironically) made their hearts weak, which is why they shed them in the first place.

This contradicts Nomura's claim above that members have their own expectations. You can't exactly say that they all committed acts to gain power, as that was more of Xemnas' goal. It appears that they individually had their own motives, but like answered in the interview, worked under their leader and collected Hearts as a main purpose in the group. Sort of like you have your own job to do, but there's something that all workers need to accomplish together in one section.

 

[flurryflames]

That is true that Braig has powers. But we don't know if he was the only one or if the others did as well. (We know about the familar of the weapons came from though.) However, in a way he seem to be the ring leader besides Xehanort, Dilan, Even, Eleaus and eventually Ienzo following. They were responsible for the whole thing being put into action and experimentations of the heartless.


I don't remember anyone saying or even complying that the organization not wanting their old hearts back or anything close to it. Where does it say that? If they wanted to be a different person then why would they even want to keep the memories of who they were before? What good would those illusional memories be? It wouldn't make sense.


Most of them want their hearts back and to become whole again. Thus wanting to be who they were before. However it is ironic in a way because Ansem and the other 6 apprentices threw their hearts away thus creating their nobody selves and the entire mess they themselves created. They have the memories and such, but it is very complicated why they even thought that the pratices of the heart would even prepare for this. The 6 apprentices themselves are the only ones who know about this as far as we know.

The others believe that they will gain their own goal, and probably in a way brain washed to seek what they have been told. However, in a way Saix falls in deeper and seems to want to help Xenmas seek his goal. Sure he wants a heart himself, but he seems more determined than the rest. Perhaps Xenmas may have given the nobodies these elemental powers (ehh with Braig/Xigbar that is a mystery). I am starting to believe that now. However they were to recruit more of their 'own kind' in a sense which was given by order by Xenmas. Hoping to complete Kingdom Hearts. But for what reason? To manipulate them to gather more hearts so that Xenmas himself can become god like. He needed them to fulfil his own destiny. The only one that actually wanted power was Xenmas.

 

[gelandporn]

It's a little bit vague for confirmation, though. You can easily take it as his way of explaining that they don't look for their own Hearts, they take others' and let them reside in their replicated KH (let's not forget that they take orders and explanations from the boss, or other higher-ups with scientific background). Not that they refuse their old pieces; nowhere does it say that.

I don't see how it's vague. They're using other hearts to complete Kingdom Hearts so that they, in turn, may be complete.
Do you think that getting their old hearts back fits into that equation?

This contradicts Nomura's claim above that members have their own expectations. You can't exactly say that they all committed acts to gain power, as that was more of Xemnas' goal. It appears that they individually had their own motives, but like answered in the interview, worked under their leader and collected Hearts as a main purpose in the group. Sort of like you have your own job to do, but there's something that all workers need to accomplish together in one section.

Watching that foolish beast flail about only deepens my disdain for humans
and their incessant need to be pinned down by feelings. We became Nobodies
precisely to avoid the shackles of emotion. It was only later that we
realized the scale of that loss: that some things simply cannot be done
without a heart. Nonetheless, I see nary a pleasant thing about it.

That is not to say I'm disregarding the motives of individual members, but as a group, that was their mindset.
Put another way, if the Organization is a religion, think of it as doctrine. Naturally, some members will disagree. But I'm speaking more about the founding members' views, which is what bound the Organization together in the first place.

I'm not going to say that the Catholic Church doesn't regard abortion as a sin just because many of its members think otherwise.

 

[Th Key of Destny]

Grass is in the right here, and in regards to the whole, "Oh we could just commit suicide" thing, wasn't there an interview stating that they could only come back if they were felled in the correct order and quite importantly with a keyblade? Which is why only the hearts that are released from the heartless by the keyblade go on to return to Kingdom Hearts. I may be getting my Kingdom Hearts' mixed up here, but I'm 90% confident I read that you can only come back if the keyblade slays your heartless and then nobody. Which is pointless anyway because that's not what the organisation wants, just some mindless trivia.

 

[HeartSeams]

Wasn't there an interview stating that they could only come back if they were felled in the correct order and quite importantly with a keyblade?

Not exactly. Nomura said in that interview that, basically, they could be defeated in either order and there would still be a chance for them to return, and he made no comment on them having to be destroyed by the Keyblade (though, since a Heartless can only be defeated by the Keyblade otherwise the heart will just turn back into a Heartless again, it does seem to suggest that the Keyblade has to kill the Heartless).

 

[State]

Tetsuya Nomura specifically said that Heartless and Nobodies can return to their original self if both heart, body and soul of an individual are defeated, doesn't matter the order, BUT, he did say that the percentage of returning as a whole individual is raised when the Hearltess is defeated AND then the Nobody, i.e.
You defeat Xemnas and then Ansem Seeker of Darkness, Xehanort has less percentage of returning to his original self.
On the other hand, if you defeat Ansem SoD and then Xemnas, he'll have more percentage of returning to his original self.

 

[Ikkin]

Tetsuya Nomura specifically said that Heartless and Nobodies can return to their original self if both heart, body and soul of an individual are defeated, doesn't matter the order, BUT, he did say that the percentage of returning as a whole individual is raised when the Hearltess is defeated AND then the Nobody, i.e.
You defeat Xemnas and then Ansem Seeker of Darkness, Xehanort has less percentage of returning to his original self.
On the other hand, if you defeat Ansem SoD and then Xemnas, he'll have more percentage of returning to his original self.

I don't think it's an issue of percentage, so much as it's an issue of needing something extra to restore the full person if the Nobody's destroyed first.

So it would be something like, "Heartless destroyed -> heart goes into stasis -- Nobody destroyed -> body and heart recombine" while "Nobody destroyed -> body is lost -- Heartless destroyed -> heart goes into stasis until it gets a new body."

 

[Fractured_Heart628]

Actually, as far as I can tell the only people that were able to use their power other than Sora were Apprentice Xehanort and Braig. All I can say are that the rest of the members have something to represent their Nobodies, for example Lea's frisbees have flames on them and he holds them like Axel holds his chakrams when he is about fight and Axel's element is fire.

The Nobodies' were probably in it for personal gain, except Roxas, because he was literally brought into the Organization after Sora lost his heart.