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Nobodies With Hearts



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Lifes.Lover

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I think I see that you ignored my little comment about your text format.

Being a special nobody might mean that he isn't a Nobody. The reason he is classified as a special
nobody is because he is different from normal Nobodies. Possibly he could be so different that he
is not even technically a Nobody. There are requirements and rules to define a Nobody, and since
Roxas is doesn't actually correspond to these completely, either he's not a Nobody, or the rules
and requirements are different than what is believed. Whatever the case, there is no such thing
as an exception to rules.

Not being a Nobody at all, i.e. having a heart, means that he is not a Special Nobody, but, rather, not a Nobody at all. How amazing is that?! There are always exceptions to the rules. There's a reason for the saying 'there are exceptions to every rules.' There are also exceptions to the rules in KH. You can't just make a new rule for every exception.

Why? How can you be sure when you don't even know that he feels nothing?

Because of the fact that he is torn between the two. I believe that when you can feel, you know you can feel. But, when you're pretending, you can fool yourself into thinking that you feel, and thus not really understand that you're not actually feeling.

That's just it though, Roxas doesn't know if he has a heart or not, so he can't hate the emptiness
of not having a heart, because he can't feel that emptiness. If he could feel that emptiness, he
would not have doubts of not having a heart.

Again, see right above.

He shouldn't be able to influence his feelings if Roxas doesn't have any feelings himself. That's basic logic right there.

I see no logic in that. Sora and Roxas are connected. Just because Roxas doesn't have feelings before going back to Sora does not mean that he can't feel once he's inside of Sora. This also means that he will, in the small corner that he is still Roxas, form attachments to what he once had, when he was his own person. Or at least half person. Thus, this will influence his new feelings, and he will project this to Sora, because they are connected.

See the logic in that?

I didn't say it was evidence, I said it was one of my personal reasons.
Attention to details is an important skill, as well as avoiding to make
closed minded assumptions.

Closed minded assumptions? You gave that theory as one of your personal reasons why you believe that Roxas has a heart. Your personal reasons are the only reason why you believe that Roxas has a heart. Therefore, your theory is, in part, your evidence of why you believe Roxas has a heart. However, the theory should not even have been mentioned because no one knows your theory, and thus is a personal reason that cannot be debated about, or anything of the kind.
 

Key of Valor

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Lifes.Lover said:
Not being a Nobody at all, i.e. having a heart, means that he is not a Special Nobody, but, rather, not a Nobody at all. How amazing is that?! There are always exceptions to the rules. There's a reason for the saying 'there are exceptions to every rules.' There are also exceptions to the rules in KH. You can't just make a new rule for every exception.

Exception implies contradiction. Rules are supposed to hold keep to constant truth. If something brakes
the rules, you either don't know enough of the circumstance of that the something, or you don't know
enough about what the rules really are. When a rule faces an exception, pursue better understanding
of rules and circumstances, or label it as an exception and thus become ignorant.

Lifes.Lover said:
Because of the fact that he is torn between the two. I believe that when you can feel, you know you can feel. But, when you're pretending, you can fool yourself into thinking that you feel, and thus not really understand that you're not actually feeling.

For one with a heart, there are different variations for strength of feelings. Some feelings can be
strong while others can be so numb that they may be barely felt at all. When there is no heart, the is
no emotions, and the absolute emptiness should be apparent and difficult to deal with. I don't see how
Roxas could be the only one in the Organization who wasn't sure he wanted his heart back unless he
had a heart already.

Lifes.Lover said:
I see no logic in that. Sora and Roxas are connected. Just because Roxas doesn't have feelings before going back to Sora does not mean that he can't feel once he's inside of Sora. This also means that he will, in the small corner that he is still Roxas, form attachments to what he once had, when he was his own person. Or at least half person. Thus, this will influence his new feelings, and he will project this to Sora, because they are connected.

See the logic in that?

I actually gave this alot of thought... So Roxas' memories from being a special nobody
become Sora's memories as well, which attach to his heart, which influence the emotions.
Simple enough concept that seems to check out with the details. Of course fake emotions
can't influence real emotions, so what this idea suggests is that you take the basis of
someone who only has fake emotions and make it the basis of someone that can produce
real emotion. An imprint writing information on a heart... sound like an interesting concept.

Lifes.Lover said:
Closed minded assumptions? You gave that theory as one of your personal reasons why you believe that Roxas has a heart. Your personal reasons are the only reason why you believe that Roxas has a heart. Therefore, your theory is, in part, your evidence of why you believe Roxas has a heart. However, the theory should not even have been mentioned because no one knows your theory, and thus is a personal reason that cannot be debated about, or anything of the kind.

I mentioned the theory for the purpose of relating, not debating.
How could you not understand that?

And SA, I agree that there is definitely a possibility that Namine can be an Unbirth,
because I, like you, agree that special nobody may not necessarily mean Nobody.
 

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And SA, I agree

*scratches chin* damn. Satan must be freezing down there.

that there is definitely a possibility that Namine can be an Unbirth,
because I, like you, agree that special nobody may not necessarily mean Nobody.

Mmhm. I'll never get tired of it -
Special Nobody = anything at all that resulted from the process of a Heart leaving the Body, and that is neither the Heart itself nor the Heartless, and neither is it a Whole Being.
It would, in a way, make KH1 Kairi a Nobody, but then again - B+S-H. She sure fits the definition a lot better than Naminé seems to, or even Xion for as far as we know.
It would still keep Riku from ever having created any type of Nobody though, seeing how he was a whole being, a Heart, or a B+S with another person's Heart in it - but that leaves us back with a Whole Being, albeit put together from different people.

On a side note, kindly cut it with the close mindedness. People have the right to disagree with you.
 

Gexus

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Roxas does have a heart, otherwise he wouldn't be able to weild a keyblade. He might actually have two hearts because Nomura stated that you can weild as many keyblades as the number of hearts you have.
Hmm, seeing as Roxas doesn't dual-weild until much later after his birth, maybe he consumed Xion's heart for some reason.
 

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Roxas does have a heart, otherwise he wouldn't be able to weild a keyblade. He might actually have two hearts because Nomura stated that you can weild as many keyblades as the number of hearts you have.
Hmm, seeing as Roxas doesn't dual-weild until much later after his birth, maybe he consumed Xion's heart for some reason.

:I



I'd like to see this quote from Nomura, please.

Also, are you saying that at one point Sora had four hearts in him at once and when he turned into a Heartless, two of them went into Roxas? Oh wait, I see that part about him absorbing Xion's heart. From what we can tell, Xion is the one who's absorbing things -memories-, not Roxas.
 

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Roxas does have a heart, otherwise he wouldn't be able to weild a keyblade.

Roxas shares Sora's Memories eventually and have his Keychains. Had he his own Heart that would be all but impossible.
He can wield the Keyblade for he's the Nwobody born from one of the strongest Hearts of all, and that Heart was chosen by the Keyblade.
Thus, he too was chosen by the Keyblade - even without possessing a heart.

He might actually have two hearts because Nomura stated that you can weild as many keyblades as the number of hearts you have.

Nomura said there are as many Keyblades as there are qualified Hearts.
Don't go making multiple Hearts in the same body to be that much of a common case.

Hmm, seeing as Roxas doesn't dual-weild until much later after his birth, maybe he consumed Xion's heart for some reason.

How about because it was him/Ven and Sora involved, making for two Beings thus making for two Keyblades?
 

Pinwheel

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The only time I can ever even think of a nobody having a heart would be when Roxas appeared out of Sora near the end of KHII, mostly because he hasn't fully faded into Sora.
Nobody with heart= whole being.
 

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hmmm. roxas doesnt have a heart anytime. niether do any of the nobodies. it is impossible for them to have hearts. anyways yen sid said that they act like they have hearts.

Roxas is a special Nobody, capable of not only wielding the Keyblade, but Duel Wield, something not even his Somebody was capable of doing until after they fused, and even then - only through Drive Forms.
Also, Roxas was bluntly hinted (ok downright stated) to have a Heart, so we can't just rule this out so easily.
 

Lifes.Lover

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Exception implies contradiction. Rules are supposed to hold keep to constant truth. If something brakes
the rules, you either don't know enough of the circumstance of that the something, or you don't know
enough about what the rules really are. When a rule faces an exception, pursue better understanding
of rules and circumstances, or label it as an exception and thus become ignorant.

And there can't be contradictions? There is no such thing as a rule that is cut and dry completely. There are shades of gray to everything, and thus not everything can be encompassed into a rule. Therefore, that's why we have exceptions. Because there's more to rules than what we see. But the base of the rule stays the same. Body + Soul - Heart= Nobody.

For one with a heart, there are different variations for strength of feelings. Some feelings can be
strong while others can be so numb that they may be barely felt at all. When there is no heart, the is
no emotions, and the absolute emptiness should be apparent and difficult to deal with. I don't see how
Roxas could be the only one in the Organization who wasn't sure he wanted his heart back unless he
had a heart already.

Where does it say that Roxas is the only one who doesn't want his heart back?

I actually gave this alot of thought... So Roxas' memories from being a special nobody
become Sora's memories as well, which attach to his heart, which influence the emotions.
Simple enough concept that seems to check out with the details. Of course fake emotions
can't influence real emotions, so what this idea suggests is that you take the basis of
someone who only has fake emotions and make it the basis of someone that can produce
real emotion. An imprint writing information on a heart... sound like an interesting concept.

Not really. I said nothing about fake emotions. Once Roxas is back inside, and fully tied to Sora, he has the feelings that Sora feels. Therefore, he attaches the real emotion that Sora uses to the memories he has of what he once had. Therefore, fake emotions have no basis on anything.

And this says nothing about my soul having imprinted memories emotions on it, thus letting him have emotions theory.

I mentioned the theory for the purpose of relating, not debating.
How could you not understand that?

I understood what you were saying perfectly well. However, you're not understanding what I'm saying, it looks like. You brought the theory and it's relation to Roxas into a debate that we're having. You only did it for relating purposes, but when you bring something into a debate, you should expect it to be debated. However, since you weren't, and I don't want to debate about it, considering that it's just a 'relation', you should not have brought the theory into the debate at all.

Because that makes it evidence for your position.

And SA, I agree that there is definitely a possibility that Namine can be an Unbirth,
because I, like you, agree that special nobody may not necessarily mean Nobody.

I think you are close-minded about me, to some degree. Because you read that I say that Roxas cannot have a heart due to his Nobody status, and the rules of the Nobodies stand true for me, you don't think at all to ask me about why I would think Roxas has a heart.

Here's how it stands with me. Just because I think Roxas doesn't have a heart due to his Nobody status, does not mean that I believe that Roxas is a Nobody. If you have read other posts of mine before, you'd know that I believe strongly in Nomura's abilities and like for twisting the plot on us and that if he has done it twice or more times on us before, then he will once again.

Therefore, it is not above my thinking to believe that, during one of the new games, Nomura will give us a plot twist and say something to the affect that either Naminé, Roxas, or Xion are not, in fact, actually Nobodies at all.

Perhaps Ansem the Wise isn't as wise as we thought, and he didn't actually have a clue what he was writing about, and perhaps Roxas and/or Naminé were mistaken for Nobodies when, in fact, they are not.

However, until this comes up, I believe fully in the rules that we have been given so far, and as such, Roxas is still a Nobody, and therefore cannot have a heart. I'm not goint to throw the rulebook out the window just because I want to believe Roxas has a heart, come hell or high water.

I suppose, in your eyes, that still makes me close-minded, doesn't it?
 

Byronic Hero

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Roxas is a special Nobody, capable of not only wielding the Keyblade, but Duel Wield, something not even his Somebody was capable of doing until after they fused, and even then - only through Drive Forms.
Also, Roxas was bluntly hinted (ok downright stated) to have a Heart, so we can't just rule this out so easily.

At least until the Xemnas fight :3
 

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Roxas is a special Nobody, capable of not only wielding the Keyblade, but Duel Wield, something not even his Somebody was capable of doing until after they fused, and even then - only through Drive Forms.

I think it's odd how the only time that Sora or Riku Dual- Wielded was when using someone elses power. Sora used the power of Donald, Goofy, and Roxas to Dual- Wield. Riku used Xehanort's Heartless' power to Dual- Wield.

Also, Roxas was bluntly hinted (ok downright stated) to have a Heart, so we can't just rule this out so easily.

When?
 

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At least until the Xemnas fight :3

Him holding Riku's WtD isn't Sora Duel Wielding.
...unless you wanna tell me you believe Kairi is a Wielder in which case I will be forced to shun you. *narrows eyes*

I think it's odd how the only time that Sora or Riku Dual- Wielded was when using someone elses power. Sora used the power of Donald, Goofy, and Roxas to Dual- Wield. Riku used Xehanort's Heartless' power to Dual- Wield.

Plot wise, Donald and Goofy never had anything to do with the Drive Forms. Whenever a scene took place and Sora was in a Drive Form, all his party members were present as well.
First time he went into Valor Form, Goofy was the one to comment about Sora having two Keyblades.
Plot wise, Sora never "ate up" anyone.
Though I agree about Sora using Roxas/Ven's powers, similarly to Riku using XH. It makes the most sense thus far as far as Duel Wielding explanations go.


FM+ scene. Axel asked Roxas if he had a Heart, unlike Axel himself and Naminé - and him mentioning Naminé means he's probably not talking about Roxas having fused back with Sora, since that option was open to Naminé as well.
So going by the common assumption that Naminé did come from Kairi's Heart, Roxas has a Heart unrelated to Sora's own - possibly.
 

Byronic Hero

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Him holding Riku's WtD isn't Sora Duel Wielding.
...unless you wanna tell me you believe Kairi is a Wielder in which case I will be forced to shun you. *narrows eyes*

Then what's that classify as if it isn't duel wielding? I mean he's using two real, non split, keyblades without the need of drive. Something he wasn't able to do until after fusing with Roxas.
 

Lifes.Lover

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kairi isnt a weilder. no one knows where that keyblade came from anyway.

No, you're only half correct. Kairi is not a weilder, but we do know where that keyblade came from.

Riku was duel-wielding, thus splitting his keyblade into two. The second he gave to Kairi to use, with a keychain shaped from the memories he holds of Destiny Islands. Hence it's pink and flower-y galore.
 

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kairi isnt a weilder.

Atta boy.

no one knows where that keyblade came from anyway.

No, you're only half correct. Kairi is not a weilder, but we do know where that keyblade came from.

Riku was duel-wielding, thus splitting his keyblade into two. The second he gave to Kairi to use, with a keychain shaped from the memories he holds of Destiny Islands. Hence it's pink and flower-y galore.

This.

Another Report said:
However there is no particular explanation for the Soul Eater’s transfer and occurrence, as well as Riku’s handing it to Kairi

Riku handed Kairi the Soul Eater, while wielding the Soul Eater/WtD.
He was Duel Wielding.

Then what's that classify as if it isn't duel wielding? I mean he's using two real, non split, keyblades without the need of drive. Something he wasn't able to do until after fusing with Roxas.

But he's not the one sustaining the second Keyblade. That's Riku's doing, just the way he did for Kairi when she was using it.
Sora's simply holding it and using it, he's not the one that summoned it, hence the difference.
This is him holding two Keyblades, not Duel Wielding.
 
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