• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...


Not so much a "theory" as a collection of thoughts . . . (Spoilers, yes)

Not open for further replies.


New member
Apr 11, 2007
A lot of this has been posted on the GameFAQs boards, and this whole writeup is an extension therein. I'm largely using data and conclusions reached from there to form my argument and am pretty much avoiding using "phrases of the day" as were cropping up there.

As such, I don't have the proper names "Aqua" and "Ven" in here. I will say somethings which may or may not have been posted on these boards. I may be posting stuff which is totally off base with information you people have found. Please do not flame me, correct me if I've got misinformation floating in here, and if you want to discuss it let's do it witch civility?

1 - We know the three "knights" are new people, Nomura said as much. I don't think he's lying, because if we assume he WAS then why do we trust any of his answers in that interview anyway? Appearances relative to existing characters is likely important but not supposed to reflect they are the ACTUAL characters we know (ie the knight who looks like Roxas). But on the same note, Nomura said nothing about the two "adversaries" being new characters, did he? If anyone is supposed to be "Xehanort", it would more than likely be one of these two beings.

2 - It's been fairly well established the bald man's outfit looks quite similar to what "Ansem" wears in the first game (AND CoM), except for a few changes. Someone with sharp eyes can catalogue them, I'm not going to bother for you. They're similar ENOUGH to suggest there's a relation between the two. It's also interesting how the "double" looks almost exactly like Riku's "Heartless knight" form. They both use keyblades, but this is relative likely to the fact one is a double (Roxas can use keyblades since he is Sora's Nobody). But does it have a meaning in itself, how he can use one? And what is that meaning?

3 - Xemnas has either the body, the armor, or the living knight in captivity, seen in Final Mix +. He sits down and says something similar to: "It's been a long time my friend". But people so often refer to their nemesis as "friends"; I could cite examples but it's common enough. It's not sarcasm per se, but it's a nod to the fact the two have grown close through chasing each other and so many battles they know more about each other than friends. I think that is the case here, Xemnas is not an ALLY, he is an ENEMY of the knights. For whatever reason.

4 - None of the knights' keyblades have chains on them. The "Lingering Spirit" also does not have a chain on his. People have taken this to mean these are not "true" keyblades. HOWEVER he is quite strong for some sort of "fake" keyblade. I think what you are seeing are the original keyblades, the first three to exist, their "core essence" if you will. To answer the question ahead of time: "so why does the Kingdom Key say it's the true form of the keyblade?"
Why? Because if you don't attach a keychain to alter the power from it, you have that form. Every cutscene where they use a "Default" keyblade, that's what they use. That's supposed to reflect THAT keyblade may take on many appearances but it will always be the Kingdom Key. These knights' keyblades are similarly the "core essence" of their keyblades. They don't have a chain attached, so they have no other shape.
(I think the reason the Kingdom Key is shown with a keychain is for model reasons when animating Sora, more than a real conceptual reason. Why? It's the simplest answer when you take a step back and consider it, that's why. I don't HAVE a better answer there.)

5 - Why are the three keyblades from "Sunset Horizons" not in the "Birth by Sleep" animation? It's almost seamless for the two to meet up right -there-. Want an example of how I mean that?
Some nice fellow put the two back to back.
So why do the keyblades not appear? I think they're actually supposed to be two seperate visions of the same point in time. The reason they're not there is because they're not REALLY there, you see?
Or, another possibility is that the bald man had come there for one of those keyblades, himself. He HAS a keyblade and chain already, I shall note; perhaps he already is the owner of one of those keyblades. And we see Mickey at the last frames, with Star Seeker. What if the Kingdom Key is in his hands when the knights and the old man clash, because he finally had gained it? As for the third, well, who knows? We do know people have referred to the three keyblades as the keyblades of "light, twilight, and dark", but I don't know if that's official. If it is, the "dark" keyblade is likely the one the bald man is using.
It can be said the three knights picked up blades with some importance: the "Lingering Spirit" knight picked up the Kingdom Key, the female picked up a completely silver keyblade, and the last one picked up "The Path to the Dawn". Does this mean anything? I don't know; they aren't using them when all heck breaks loose though so probably not. There's one person who can say for sure and he's not telling.

6 - The spell he uses is more than likely a version of "Blizzard", as the visual effect is more akin to frost than stone. And both the female knight and the "double" use it as well as a "Thunder" spell. I'd say the female knight is the most powerful spellcaster there besides the bald man, which is why she doesn't jump in to fight; that's not what she's good at.
But as for the young knight who looks like Roxas, after he falls (and the flash-frozen keyblade shatters on the way down) his eyes are still moving. He's alive for what happened next.

7 - The Japanese text has been translated in the trailer:
"The sealed tale of truth" [When the opening starts]
"There's no such thing as coincidence in fate" [When the knight removes his helmet]
"All the fates have been set" [As they flash to the "stone castle" which had been the battleground with the symbol glowing in the sky]
"After a long time. Each fate..." "...Will await the awakening of a new tale" [When they are showing Mickey]
Cite my source!
I take this to mean this is in the PAST, and these things have happened before as the first step in the Kingdom Hearts saga. The Keyblade War referred to is just ending with this last battle. The symbol in the sky is Kingdom Hearts, which is summoned by the bald man and for the first time "unlocked". And (conjecture here) Mickey has been trained by Yensid to be a guardian of Kingdom Hearts and prevent people from subverting the immense power it contains.
I'll also support one other thing on these statements: "There's no such thing as coincidence in fate" and "all the fates have been set" leads me to believe the three knights are defeated here and yet manage to push Kingdom Hearts back out of the worlds to wherever it is supposed to be.

8 - On the subject of names. The names of two of the nights other than the Lingering Spirit are known through the Japanese translation: Aqua and Ven. Who knows if those will remain to be the same names they have IF/WHEN Final Mix + makes it out in a NA/PAL release. (I'm not gonna hold my breath for it, though I'll state my opinion this is VERY likely since they left the English audio in the game Disney may push for it.)
Does THIS have any meaning? Possibly, I'd say the Lingering Spirit would have one of the other "four elements" as a name. We can't be sure yet.
Xehanort's name itself is a scramble with an X added; it can either unscramble to "ANOTHER" or "NO HEART". However, how could he become a Heartless and Nobody if he had no heart in the first place? I'd say if you assume this has a meaning, then it should be "ANOTHER" . . . but another WHAT?

9 - There's been a lot of noise made that Xehanort had no memory when Ansem found him, but I'll point out by the time he has his 5 apprentices he is DRIVEN hard to complete the experiments Ansem balked at. He's willing to work using Ansem's name to cover his tracks and identify himself now. There is not much known about the time between that and the Organization, what the apprentices do other than serve. But once the Organization starts up, they begin searching for new members. New Nobodies who are powerful enough to serve as potent allies towards some end. (Note: not FRIENDS since the Nobodies have no hearts, they have no feelings, including friendship.)
We see Xemnas has access to a secret chamber in Ansem's lab, which we don't see completely . . . but the "Room of Sleep" has a chain motif on the walls and floor, with the armor of a knight on the ground. It's said he's looking for the "Room of Awakening" which nobody remembers who created it . . . what is that supposed to mean? $10 says it's connected to the PHRASE "Birth by Sleep" and not the video per se.

10 - The English text in "Sunset Horizons" was collected as well. I'm putting it in here in the order of appearance.
"The Keyblade is said to hold phenomenal power / One legend says its wielder saved the world, while another says he wrought chaos and ruin upon it / I must know what this Keyblade is . . . A key opens doors." [An excerpt from the Ansem Report, specifically stated]
"Master of keyblade"
"The lost two"
"Memory of Xehanort"
"The Keyblade War"
"It all began with . . ."
"birth by sleep" [Yes, it's lowercase]
Has anyone brought these things together? And noticed "Endless" does NOT appear in this text? (Where did people start getting that phrase from, anyway?)

11 - The fight with the Lingering Spirit in Final Mix+ is fraught with frustrating glimpses of actual speech; far as I can tell he attacks Sora expecting he is Xehanort or connected to him. Afterwards, you can choose to rematch him and he says something like "all I have left to give is my hatred of Xehanort". I don't know what that's supposed to mean, yet, but it's clear those knights are enemies of Xehanort through those statements. Something happened, to put that in motion . . . and why is this "Lingering Spirit" connected to the Cornerstone of Light?
Is it possible that's where Mickey got it, and brought it from? Remember, it was said the Cornerstone made absolutely certain no darkness could attack the castle, it made it perfectly safe. How is that, and how is it the Cornerstone appears not as a STONE which part of construction (what a "cornerstone" is) but as a construct of light itself? Does THIS have any meaning at all?

12 - The two knights who were shown in the video with blue eyes are almost certainly brother/sister . . . and at the same time younger than the taller knight. He's protecting them, it would seem, when he rushes out against the bald man and his double. Likely that is where the "hatred" begins . . .
What if that bald man was another of the knights (explaining where he got his keyblade) and betrayed them to seek Kingdom Hearts? That could be how the Keyblade War started, a struggle of keyblade master against keyblade master which by its very nature attracted enough power to allow Kingdom Hearts to be "unlocked".

13 - Yes, I pushed it to 13, just for this question in particular: Is there any significance to the chosen number of the Organization, "13"? Why did Xemnas want Roxas badly enough to recruit him personally? What made him want a keyblade master in the Organization, what purpose would that serve? And for that matter, why is it the Organization seemed determined at the outset to try to "wake up" Roxas inside of Sora and only considered destroying him when Sora proved unwilling to cooperate? WHAT did Xenmas NEED a keyblade for?


Apr 21, 2005
The names 'Aqua' and 'Ven' have indeed been posted on these boards. Don't presume GameFAQS can procure information about an upcoming title faster then a forum specifically based upon said title.

You've presented this information in an ordered and readable fashion. As such, don't expect anyone to actually read it. Sadly, this board is the lair of the dregs of fanboys.

As for your '13th' 'collection of your thoughts', well, that one is quite simple: Nobody gave a damn about the plot holes in KH2, even the whole organisation idea was founded on an assumption that the player would assume them to be evil. There never was any requirement for Xemnas to recruit Roxas, neither any real addition from it to their somewhat vauge goal. In other words, KH2's villians are fundamentally flawed, and simply used as a few boss fights, and an excuse for 'unique grouping', as is becoming a standard in today's anime and videogames: A group of men/women who share a common attribute but differ on an individual level in appearance and fighting style. Take Naruto's Akatsuki, Bleach's 13 division captains, and FFXII's Judges.


New member
Nov 3, 2004
I can't really speak on the first 12 points since it's mainly info that's been put together, but that last one, with share a quick opinion on. I just assumed Xemnas wanted a keyblade wielder to start collecting hearts for him, like how he used Sora. They probably thought Roxas would be easier to control since he was a nobody. The whole thing about finally deciding to kill Sora after he didn't want to help there goals was to make them seem like villians, even though I never got that impression from them. Well technically, they were villians in a sense that what they were doing wasn't the right way about it, but they weren't inherently evil villians bent on world domination.


New member
Mar 29, 2007
I believe that Xemnas needed a keyblade wielder to unlock the hearts of people....Even though Roxas did not wield the Dark Keyblade he still was wielding a weapon meant to unlock anything....Or even so....what if in order to complete a kingdom hearts one needs a keyblade....Ansem(Xehanort's heartless) collected hearts by tricking Sora into using his keyblade constantly and used Riku's dark keyblade to complete his Kingdom Hearts....So perhaps Xemnas shared the same need and idea....

Sleeping Lion

New member
Apr 11, 2007
And noticed "Endless" does NOT appear in this text? (Where did people start getting that phrase from, anyway?)

"Endless comes" from Deep Dive during the countdown-type sequence. It's in between the mention of the Nobodies and Heartless. YouTube - Kingdom Hearts Deep Dive - It's significance, if any, isn't known yet.

As far as Xehanort's name, I don't know if it has any deeper meaning than just the fact that he split into a being with "no heart" and a being that is considered "another". But it could, I don't think we know enough yet to say for sure.

And I totally agree with your thought on Xemnas calling the armor or knight "friend". That's pretty much exactly what I thought about it.


New member
Apr 11, 2007
Wow, all people reply to is #13 . . .

There is an incorrect answer too, at least in my opinion.
"xynot" pointed out what Ansem, Seeker of Darkness sought from Sora, but that is wrong. Xemnas and the Organization wanted the keyblade to be used to "free hearts" that they could steal them and patch together a Kingdom Hearts of their own. The Seeker in Darkness only cared about the Princesses of Heart . . . he never exactly stated a goal of manipulating "freed hearts" . . . he thought the seven Princesses of Heart would be enough. And it was; the path was opened and it took Sora traveling through "Ansem's" dark world ("The End of the World") to seal it back up again.
If I am incorrect, please cite your source where "Ansem" makes this clear.

@ others - I will agree, it seemed rather odd; there was a lot of disorganization in Organization XII. But the later you go, the more you see members who are there to serve Xemnas' final goal. Saix and Luxord in particular are there to keep Sora on that destined path. Xigbar and Xaldin, the two oldest surviving members other than Xemnas, both are there to force Sora to fight on and do Xemnas' collecting of hearts. Demyx was destroyed trying to delay Sora, to keep from interfering in the battle against Maleficent. Axel was a little of a loose cannon for his late "life", but until his plan to retrieve Roxas failed . . . he was indeed a hard-line member of the Organization. Roxas, well, he was too much like Sora; he didn't fit in the Organization at all.
This is of course, discounting the little turf-war which went on at Castle Oblivion; that was interesting in and of itself but having not played Chain of Memories I can't begin to attest to events I did not witness.

The reason I identify Organization XIII as villains is because of their methods . . . they cause the worlds to have chaos, they don't care about what they destroy along the way, for that goal of Xemnas' . . . I wonder how many really did KNOW the extent of that plan. It's not merely that the game forced me to fight them . . . it's that it was clear the Organization was willing to throw worlds into chaos and disorder to serve their own ends.

THAT, to me, is within the definitions of evil.

@ Zetsumi - Yes, I expected the names were verified here, but I didn't feel like altering my whole set post for the names; I was rather confident people would understand who I meant with how I wrote it.
I'm also aware few people will really read it. THAT is a shame; if there had been a forum singled out for collecting and discussing theories I would have dumped this there. Alas, there isn't yet. And this isn't really a THEORY so much as a set of observations, questions, and so forth. I'm not putting a theory forth, because I don't know ALL of the details of what's out there so far. I've read two different accounts of what the "Lingering Spirit" says, heard a lot of other things about translations . . . I just go with what 'feels' like it is natural. The translations from the "Birth by Sleep" movie I showed to someone and they pretty much said: "Looks like a fair translation to me".
If someone wanted me to make a theory about what's going on in the secret movie, well, you could piece it out of the above:

Those three knights are original "Masters of the keyblades", and the bald man is obviously both a master himself AND superior in talent to those three. We're looking at a "final confrontation" here and a failure to prevent Kingdom Hearts from appearing to the bald man's summons. Mickey is there to prevent Kingdom Hearts from actually being USED, more than likely on direction from Yensid. The "Lingering Spirit" is haunted by his failure to stop it, and is naught but a "memory" which can't fade because of that guilt.
Aqua and Ven? And the one who became the "Lingering Spirit"? Well, since they are still alive when Kingdom Hearts is summoned I'd imagine they have a part to play in putting this Kingdom Hearts back where it is supposed to be with Mickey's help. In the process, the as-of-yet-unnamed knight is slain and the "Lingering Spirit" is all that is left.
I can't really speculate too far outside of the movie and what little is known beyond the KH2 movies (BOTH of them). I stand by the idea this is the CLOSING of the "Keyblade War", and the end result is . . . mutually assured destruction, which scores as a "win" for the protectors of Kingdom Hearts. It's restored to safety, even when all the participants are gone and dead.

Face My Fears

She's not an "it"!
Apr 9, 2007
For the last point you made(13) I think the Organization needed Roxas just to be an easy way of collecting hearts as he can wield a keyblade and being a nobody can be controlled easily by the Organization. I also think they needed a keyblade wielder to attempt something Xehanort/Xemnas wanted to try on Kingdom Hearts, namley unlocking it, I'm not sure what would happen if that were to occur, I thought of this because Xehanort always was said to be experimenting with the heart so who knows what he may want to try.

Now, the thing with the ES being friends with Xehanort or whatever could quite possibly be who Xemnas talks to in the Sleeping Room or whatever it's called(it's in a KH2FM+ video clip of Zexion and another Organization member possibly Xigbar talking on a staircase in the World that Never Was). Now, as I'm unclear of the detials of that I will not continue further on that matter.
Not open for further replies.