P.R status issue

[Phoenix]

I'm not sure if anyone here even cares, but eh, I'll figure I'll throw it out there anyway. It's something I talked to John and Sarah about. Basic background information you need to know is that there are 3 basic Puerto Rican parties that represent the 3 possible futures for Puerto Rico: the conservative statehood party (PNP), the centre-left commonwealth (status quo) party (PPD), and the kind-of far left independence party (PIP). If you think it's tl;dr, that's because it is.

(I include the one with John for completeness sake, but half of it is silly bullshit, so you skip if it you want)

(1:06:18 AM) Eduardo: My family is, and as such I was raised as, very independence-minded.
(1:06:25 AM) Eduardo: Especially my dad's.
(1:07:30 AM) Eduardo: They've moderated a tad, my dad even work for the pro-commonwealth party even though he sympathizes with the independence movement, but basically the two accepted parties in which you may still be branded as a patriot are those two. Also, the statehood party is extremely corrupt and socially conservative.
(1:08:19 AM) Eduardo: Digressing a little, I love the European Union. I love the fact that such diverse nations with that kind of a rich history banded together to be able to direct global policy.
(1:08:53 AM) Eduardo: The world's basically divided into 5 spheres of influence: America, the European powers (the EU), Russia, China and India, with some developing countries such as Brazil rising fast.
(1:09:18 AM) Eduardo: Which again brings me to our 3 parties: independence, commonwealth and statehood.
01:10
(1:10:15 AM) Eduardo: I don't deny independence is viable: Signapore is much smaller and has less natural resources than us, and yet it is a very rich country. However, it is dependent on the great powers and cannot lead the world, and hence, its influence on it, by itself. It has to go along with what the world desires.
(1:11:28 AM) Eduardo: Commonwealth isn't bad either, though, we've certainly profitted from it, but we are powerless. What America says goes.
(1:12:58 AM) Eduardo: Statehood has a very unique problem, though, and it's one that makes it very hard for me to accept it: pride. The Independence Party has told me all my life that becoming a state is tantamount to surrendering my national identity and having it be lost forever. We'd lose things like the Miss Universe competition, and our national sports team in the Olympics.
(1:13:41 AM) Eduardo: I've been doing some deep thinking, though, and that's not necessarily the case. Take Texas. A profoundly oh-my-god-stop-whining country, but with a very strong national identity.
(1:14:14 AM) Eduardo: The difference between us is that they get to have Senators and Reps legislate, and get to have their Presidents lead the whole thing.
(1:14:25 AM) Eduardo: even if their Texas-raised Presidnets are trigger-happy
(1:14:33 AM) Ulti: If you ignore their whimpers of wanting to break off from the US
(1:14:45 AM) Eduardo: but they're just that, whimpers
(1:14:58 AM) Eduardo: by and large, most of them feel wholly America, but also wholly Texan
01:15
(1:15:01 AM) Ulti: Cause they know we'd let them rot if they broke off
(1:15:02 AM) Eduardo: I think
(1:16:10 AM) Eduardo: What I'm driving at, though, is this: I'm starting to lean towards statehood, because as a republic, we'd be one more developing country on the map. As a commonwealth, we'd be a territory of one of the most powerful countries in the world. As a state, though, we would *be* one of the most powerful countries in the world.
(1:16:25 AM) Eduardo: And if we have to sacrifice our pretty woman competition and some basketball games, well, so be it.
(1:16:46 AM) Eduardo: thought?
(1:16:48 AM) Eduardo: thoughts*
(1:16:52 AM) Eduardo: also, sorry for the rant
(1:16:56 AM) Eduardo: just wanted to get it off my chest

 

[Phoenix]

(the one with John here because KHI is being cruel to my long messages)

(10:01:54 PM) Eduardo: our 3 movements are statehood, status quo and independence
[...]
(10:02:32 PM) Eduardo: those 3 movements are represented by 3 parties
(10:02:34 PM) Eduardo: anyway
(10:02:44 PM) Eduardo: I've been raised in an independence party household
(10:02:53 PM) John: I know about your politics for 5 minutes and it already sounds silly.
(10:02:55 PM) Eduardo: though my family has moved just a tad away from that, it's still the prevalent citizen
(10:03:41 PM) John: So where's the punchline
(10:04:05 PM) Eduardo: though my dad still retains those feelings, he works fr the PPD, the status quo (progressive autonomy) party
(10:04:12 PM) Eduardo: I've moved a bit there too over the years.
(10:04:23 PM) Eduardo: The last option would be unthinkable because of national identity and whatnot.
(10:04:34 PM) Eduardo: And here's with my crisis comes into play.
(10:04:39 PM) Eduardo: You've seen how I act about the EU.
(10:05:12 PM) Eduardo: How I love the idea of sovereign nations is vastly different identities joining together, equally, for a common goal, and to expand their global power.
(10:05:21 PM) John: Ditto
[...]
(10:08:01 PM) Eduardo: ANYWAY
(10:08:23 PM) Eduardo: so yes, why am I repulsed by statehood, yet at the same time claim I want eventual global unification?
(10:08:33 PM) Eduardo: so I see that ALL of the political parties here lie to me
(10:08:42 PM) Eduardo: and yes, you have to listen to my whole rant
(10:09:01 PM) John: Statehood as in.. a state? You're an anarchist?
(10:09:08 PM) Eduardo: don't get me wrong, I hate the statehood PARTY
(10:09:11 PM) Eduardo: US statehood?
(10:09:18 PM) John: NO I DONT ITS LATE AND I HAVE EXAMS OMORROW
(10:09:25 PM) Eduardo: the statehood party is corrupt to its core and its social values are vastly conservative
(10:09:47 PM) Eduardo: they say we would die of hunger as an independent country, which is a lie. Signapore is smaller, has less resources and is still fucking rich.
(10:09:57 PM) Eduardo: So we could be a viable, economically-stable republic.
(10:10:08 PM) Eduardo: IT'LL TAKE LIKE 10 MINS, STAY RIGHT THERE
(10:10:09 PM) John: Singapore has had more help in getting there though
(10:10:19 PM) John: OK GO GO GO
(10:10:20 PM) Eduardo: We would have it too. America won't just abandon us like that.
(10:10:30 PM) Eduardo: But what has been hard for me to accept
(10:10:40 PM) Eduardo: is that the independence movement is also lying
(10:11:14 PM) Eduardo: They've said that we would be a possession of the USA, in the sense that the USA would "win" some imaginary culture battle
(10:11:58 PM) Eduardo: However, we would not be any more of a posession than any other state of the union. We would have Senators and Reps on par with any other State. We would be able to have our own citizens eleigible for citizenship, and finally, we would actually be able to vote.
(10:12:28 PM) Eduardo: We wouldn't be a possesion of one of the most powerful counties of the world, we would BE one of the most powefful countries in the world.
(10:12:39 PM) Eduardo: However, the sticking point for independentists is the pride issue.
(10:12:57 PM) Eduardo: We have our own Miss Universe and our own Olympics thing. But think about it hard: sports and a hot woman.
(10:13:04 PM) Eduardo: It's not fucking worth it.
(10:13:22 PM) Eduardo: if the argument is economics and power vs. a represented national identity, I'll go with the former.
(10:13:33 PM) Eduardo: We can keep our internal national identity, just like Texas does.
(10:13:42 PM) Eduardo: and wave our flag, just like every ex-confederate state does.
(10:13:49 PM) John: So you want to become something like the 51st state?
(10:14:04 PM) Eduardo: That idea would be blasphemy to my family but I'm getting there.
(10:14:29 PM) Eduardo: I'd rather be that than a republic than cannot shape global politics, or a commonwealth subservient to another republic.
(10:16:04 PM) Eduardo: I wouldn't be surrendering my unique identity. I would keep it, but trade its representation for power.
(10:16:19 PM) Eduardo: Anyway, that's my rant. You can either give me your opinions (like a friend) or study (like a commie).
(10:16:39 PM) Eduardo: I'm telling you because I certinaly can't talk to my family about this over the phone.
(10:16:44 PM) Eduardo: Also, nobody else on my buddy list is smart.
(10:17:28 PM) John: "mom I think we should align with the US, I'm also gay and got married :{"
(10:17:47 PM) John: Well I'm all for international unity, though I've no idea how to go about it with a latin american country.
(10:18:02 PM) Eduardo: We're in the unique position of becoming a US state.
(10:18:18 PM) John: And did you know that Greenland geographically looks like a map in GW where I used to die a lot?
(10:18:26 PM) Eduardo: and being a country, along with the European powers, China, Russia, etc... to actually do something
(10:18:35 PM) Eduardo: GW is for lame-os.
(10:18:38 PM) Eduardo: remember?
(10:18:47 PM) John: your face is for face-os.
(10:18:48 PM) Eduardo: oh, my dear John
(10:19:00 PM) Eduardo: Frrrrrisbee-catching dogs play GW. Men? They play WoW.
(10:19:04 PM) Eduardo: *blows bubble pipe*
(10:19:11 PM) Eduardo: oh my god, I was so epic there
(10:19:13 PM) Eduardo: did you see that?
(10:20:11 PM) John: no I did not in fact it totally passed me by you see I have 3 bitches under my desk. Frrrrrisbee-catching dogs play WoW, men play with women.
(10:20:18 PM) John: *blows too many bubbles out of bubble pipe*
(10:22:34 PM) John: But as I was saying before certain bitches rudely interrupted me, you should move back home and convince everyone to go for international progress. If you get killed by your relatives in the process, that is a price you must pay for this greater goal.
(10:23:20 PM) Eduardo: oh, i'll talk to my dad about it
(10:23:22 PM) Eduardo: in person
(10:23:24 PM) Eduardo: not over the phone

 

[Ryu]

You left out the bit of the puerto's and the ricans and the angry anti-everything latino party. ;-;

THOSE WERE THE GOOD PARTS

 

[Phoenix]

There's some sort of word limit now, sir. I wasn't going to triple post solely to insult Portugal =/

 

[Monkey]

Digressing a little, I love the European Union. I love the fact that such diverse nations with that kind of a rich history banded together to be able to direct global policy.

Digressing a little, but I can't wait for Europe to be in shambles and Asia the dominant power.

Also, I think the only way Puerto Rico will get a chance to break away from the US is if its through violence.

 

[Phoenix]

Both parties have consistently and pro-actively stated that they would respect whatever referendum we vote on. Presidents, Congresses and court decisions have been clear on that. If we voted for independence (we won't), we would be independent.

Relatedly, violence is so crude.

 

[Monkey]

Right, we aren't going to let you vote for independence. You need to resort to violence.

 

[Phoenix]

"Both parties have consistently and pro-actively stated that they would respect whatever referendum we vote on. Presidents, Congresses and court decisions have been clear on that. If we voted for independence (we won't), we would be independent."

The coming referendum proposed by Congress is whether we want a change, or if we want to keep things as they are. If we vote for a change, the 4 options are statehood, independence, expanded autonomy or status quo. That's their proposal.

I'm not sure why you think America's willing to use military force on its own citizens =/

 

[Monkey]

whether we want a change, or if we want to keep things as they are. If we vote for a change, the 4 options are statehood, independence, expanded autonomy or status quo

Isn't that three options, since if you vote for a change, you wouldn't want status quo?

 

[Phoenix]

Still being included. Last-minute change.

 

[Ulti]

Also, I think the only way Puerto Rico will get a chance to break away from the US is if its through violence.

Because throughout history, the US has never acted harshly when a nation was violent towards it.

 

[SilverJ-17]

I personally feel that they should go the state-hood route, but they have the chance to do good if they go the independence route. The only reason I figured they didn't was because they were half afraid that either extremists/ extremists from Cuba would take over and lead them down a similar route as their Caribbean siblings or they might go down a roughly similar route to Haiti, though not as nearly as bad. I can understand why they haven't became a state yet as well, as they'd fear about lose their identity, but the states seem to be fairly unique, in their own way.

By the way, I mentioned the communist/ dictatorship fear thing, because we also kind of don't have a good track record with former Spanish territories turned former US territories. Well, just look at Cuba and the Philippines and what happened after wards. Both had their fair share of turmoil and issues after becoming independent.

Oh, and aren't the US Virgin Islands close by? Honestly, if Puerto Rico becomes a state, I think they should incorporate them into Puerto Rico. Then again, they probably have different people and don't want to become a state or at least part of another.

It's not like they'd be the most isolated state anyways. Hawaii's further from the U.S. mainland.

 

[Ryu]

Digressing a little, but I can't wait for Europe to be in shambles and Asia the dominant power.

Because that is such a likely scenario and because it's so much fun to watch one of the first unions of its time of a collection of countries so diverse, falling apart.

 

[Phoenix]

I personally feel that they should go the state-hood route, but they have the chance to do good if they go the independence route. The only reason I figured they didn't was because they were half afraid that either extremists/ extremists from Cuba would take over and lead them down a similar route as their Caribbean siblings or they might go down a roughly similar route to Haiti, though not as nearly as bad. I can understand why they haven't became a state yet as well, as they'd fear about lose their identity, but the states seem to be fairly unique, in their own way.

We don't really mind Cuba. We made our flags together, after all. But we do see that latin-american republics tend to not do too well.

By the way, I mentioned the communist/ dictatorship fear thing, because we also kind of don't have a good track record with former Spanish territories turned former US territories. Well, just look at Cuba and the Philippines and what happened after wards. Both had their fair share of turmoil and issues after becoming independent.

To be fair, you weren't the best neighbor. The incredibly corrupt pro-American Cuban government was overthrown by a rebellion that was naturally anti-American. Then attempted invasion. Then embargo.

Oh, and aren't the US Virgin Islands close by? Honestly, if Puerto Rico becomes a state, I think they should incorporate them into Puerto Rico. Then again, they probably have different people and don't want to become a state or at least part of another.

There's like 100,000 people in the US Virgin Islands and 4 million of us =/ If anything, give us their territory and we promise not to eradicate all opponents of the Empire (of PR).

 

[Bukkake Sensei]

Eduardo, I really don't see where your glorified perceptions of the European Union are coming from. It's a hugely undemocratic organization that seems to take no issue with robbing individual states of their legal autonomy, placing policy decisions in the hands of a committee (an appointed, not elected committee, mind you) that is extraordinarily detached from the sociopolitical circumstances of the people they're expected to govern, and doing nothing about the fact that the people who make these decisions are so often the only ones who never pay the price when these decisions are wrong. I'm all for multilateralism, but that is not what the European Union is. It's extremely unilateral and authoritarian, presenting itself under the guise of a system where the votes of individual countries actually matter. Several countries are now fighting to withdraw from the Union precisely because people are tired of having their laws -- and we are talking about a HUGE majority of their laws -- created outside of their own borders by people who do not understand them or their problems.

I'd certainly hate to see something similar happen to Puerto Rico, or any sovereign nation.

 

[Dogenzaka]

(1:14:14 AM) Eduardo: The difference between us is that they get to have Senators and Reps legislate, and get to have their Presidents lead the whole thing.
(1:14:25 AM) Eduardo: even if their Texas-raised Presidnets are trigger-happy
(1:14:33 AM) Ulti: If you ignore their whimpers of wanting to break off from the US
(1:14:45 AM) Eduardo: but they're just that, whimpers
(1:14:58 AM) Eduardo: by and large, most of them feel wholly America, but also wholly Texan
01:15
(1:15:01 AM) Ulti: Cause they know we'd let them rot if they broke off

This is hilarious.

Ulti, Texas doesn't seriously want to break off. That's preposterous, but even if we did, we are fucking rich in resources, business, land, etc. and we could take care of ourselves.


I also really want you guys to become a state so I can move down there pronto. And I have friends in PR, and I speak Spanish, and I want a little slice of my island Latino culture while still being able to be in America.

 

[Monkey]

Eduardo, I really don't see where your glorified perceptions of the European Union are coming from. It's a hugely undemocratic organization that seems to take no issue with robbing individual states of their legal autonomy, placing policy decisions in the hands of a committee (an appointed, not elected committee, mind you) that is extraordinarily detached from the sociopolitical circumstances of the people they're expected to govern, and doing nothing about the fact that the people who make these decisions are so often the only ones who never pay the price when these decisions are wrong. I'm all for multilateralism, but that is not what the European Union is. It's extremely unilateral and authoritarian, presenting itself under the guise of a system where the votes of individual countries actually matter. Several countries are now fighting to withdraw from the Union precisely because people are tired of having their laws -- and we are talking about a HUGE majority of their laws -- created outside of their own borders by people who do not understand them or their problems.

I'd certainly hate to see something similar happen to Puerto Rico, or any sovereign nation.

100% Agree here. I think the European Union is a huge waste of time.

This is hilarious.

Ulti, Texas doesn't seriously want to break off. That's preposterous, but even if we did, we are fucking rich in resources, business, land, etc. and we could take care of ourselves.

Texans unite. People don't know diddly squat.

 

[Phoenix]

Eduardo, I really don't see where your glorified perceptions of the European Union are coming from. It's a hugely undemocratic organization that seems to take no issue with robbing individual states of their legal autonomy, placing policy decisions in the hands of a committee (an appointed, not elected committee, mind you) that is extraordinarily detached from the sociopolitical circumstances of the people they're expected to govern, and doing nothing about the fact that the people who make these decisions are so often the only ones who never pay the price when these decisions are wrong. I'm all for multilateralism, but that is not what the European Union is. It's extremely unilateral and authoritarian, presenting itself under the guise of a system where the votes of individual countries actually matter. Several countries are now fighting to withdraw from the Union precisely because people are tired of having their laws -- and we are talking about a HUGE majority of their laws -- created outside of their own borders by people who do not understand them or their problems.

I'd certainly hate to see something similar happen to Puerto Rico, or any sovereign nation.

There is no "EU" organization. Any laws made for any of the EU member states are made by those very same EU member states. That's like saying the US Senate is an organization separate of the United States when the Senators in it come from those very same states. And of course they're appointed; half of the countries in the EU don't even directly elect their PM.

The only countries I can think of that are famously eurosceptic are the UK (and even the Conservatives would rather stay in it), and the Czech Republic, where the President refused to sign the Lisbon Treaty until public outrage and political pressure forced him to. The Union doesn't force the governments to change their own laws unilaterally; if Poland doesn't want its fishing laws changed, then it probably shouldn't have voted to give fishing law power to Brussels. Any country at any point can veto this type of legislation, so if all 27 countries agree to it, 27 elected governments, how can you call it undemocratic?

100% Agree here. I think the European Union is a huge waste of time.

The EU is one of the strongest proponents of a Palestinian state. China and Russia don't care that much, and the USA has too strong ties too Israel. Countries that want to join the EU have to change their laws to allow women rights, free market, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, etc, and they do so. You might not like Europe, but I'm not sure why you hate it and not, say, China and Russia (where censorship is the politcal norm), or the USA (who invaded half of the Middle East countries).

I also really want you guys to become a state so I can move down there pronto. And I have friends in PR, and I speak Spanish, and I want a little slice of my island Latino culture while still being able to be in America.

Bah, you have your latino culture right there in Texas =/

Ulti, Texas doesn't seriously want to break off. That's preposterous, but even if we did, we are fucking rich in resources, business, land, etc. and we could take care of ourselves.

Secession is illegal, though.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Bah, you have your latino culture right there in Texas =/

If by "Latino culture" you mean the occasional drunk Mexican building a house or mowing a lawn (as incredibly derogatory as that sounds..)...sure :l

No but seriously, the Mexican influence here is nothing like where I came from.

I miss the Caribbean.

 

[Ryu]

In short response to Sam's post, I'm of the opinion that the European Union doesn't do enough about national politics, rather than supposedly creating laws for countries without understanding their problems. For instance it took an age and a half to come with a proposition to start doing something about the Silvio Berlusconi situation, and even then it didn't pass, because a majority was of the opinion that "we are not to interfere in internal political matters", or something of the sort. And when it comes to trading regulations, those have worked to the advantage of most European nations, and whatever Ed said. Laws made for the EU are made by EU member states. And to be fair, half the complaints you mentioned apply to politics in general all over the world. I can't think of a political body that can't be accused of being "detached from the sociopolitical circumstances of the people they're expected to govern, and doing nothing about the fact that the people who make these decisions are so often the only ones who never pay the price when these decisions are wrong". The EU suffers from these types of issues as much as any other political system, and the fact it's supposed to govern such a wide variety of culturally and politically diverse nations doesn't make it any easier.

100% Agree here. I think the European Union is a huge waste of time.

Yes we get it, you hate Europe. So take a minute to explain why, other than French chicks not being allowed to wear scarves in public buildings cause we all know how HORRIBLE that is.