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Putting KH3 into perspective



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cakito123

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Not surprisingly, some or many details of the series simply ceased to exist when the engine change was made. It's obvious how reusing the same files made it easier and easier to make the next game in the series much faster, and also much longer in its scope.

Kingdom Hearts 3 was the most KH1-like game we've had so far, when we think of its design scope and size. Like KH1, all materials had to be made from scratch and thought from scratch as well. Not only did this make the development of the game longer, but they absolutely made some decisions when recreating this universe, to fit this limited size, made especially for this single title.

KH3 was surely expected to be compared all the time with KH2, since it was the previous numbered game. But, I never found this comparison to be fair, and most important, realistic.

If we stop to think about it, KH2 was the third game in the series in the same toolbox (Luminous Engine): there were already assets ready, and the vast majority of gameplay components simply improved and evolved: like Sora itself, the command menus and the strategy ones, the friendly NPCs, the logic of the enemies and the battles, several ready-made worlds have been expanded, the animations improved, and countless other things.

In a lot of ways, KH3 was actually the first game in the series, only... again!

What gets me excited about this is thinking that KH4 will be the true equivalent of KH2 if it turns out to be the third game in the new Saga/Engine. Can you imagine KH3 made even better and evolved, expanding some of our favorite worlds they made in 3 and telling a larger story with 2nd visits and new story beats, challenges like the olympus underworld battles, and a better battling system overall? I am so ready for this! :)

Thoughts?
 

AdrianXXII

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I like how you are framing KH3 as the new KH1 of the new Engine era. I do think there is some merit to this. They had to remake a lot of assets and probably figure out how to fit the KH combat into the Unreal Engine, which required some trial and error, where as before they at least had some reusable code from the previous entries.

I do feel like their next outing with this engine and style shall yield more worlds and larger worlds, in a shorter time span. There is bound to also be some improvements to the combat, though honestly KH3's combat is probably one of my favorite in the series so far.

Still with the increase in detail, I do feel like development cycles might be longer than they were for games on the handheld systems.
 

cakito123

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I like how you are framing KH3 as the new KH1 of the new Engine era. I do think there is some merit to this. They had to remake a lot of assets and probably figure out how to fit the KH combat into the Unreal Engine, which required some trial and error, where as before they at least had some reusable code from the previous entries.

I do feel like their next outing with this engine and style shall yield more worlds and larger worlds, in a shorter time span. There is bound to also be some improvements to the combat, though honestly KH3's combat is probably one of my favorite in the series so far.

Still with the increase in detail, I do feel like development cycles might be longer than they were for games on the handheld systems.

Yeah, right? Like, I imagine before Unreal Engine they would look at some gameplay mechanics and think:

- Will we include this one spell from BBS into our new game?
- Yes? Let's copy its archives and addapt its functions to our new game's context.
- No? Just archive these files we have. We don't need them now, but maybe we can reintroduce it in some other game and evolve it...

-Now with KH3 and Unreal, they were probably like:
- Will we include this one spell from BBS into our new game?
- Yes = Can we, really? Would remaking that waste too much of our development time? Oh it was a fun and worthy spell, so we're doing it, right? Let's remake everything from scratch, then. What wasn't good about it then that we can make it better now?
- No = oh well, less work to do! :D

Also, I think it is a given that Radient Garden and Daybreak Town will be playable areas in the next few games, just because they already have a lot of assets made for these worlds and it would be easy and faster using those ones than making completely new ones form scratch.

Yeah, development cycles absolutely will be longer than before, but still, I don't think it will take more time than KH3's development cycle, and things will absolutely evolve and get bigger and better the more games Square Enix releases.
 

AdrianXXII

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Yeah, right? Like, I imagine before Unreal Engine they would look at some gameplay mechanics and think:

- Will we include this one spell from BBS into our new game?
- Yes? Let's copy its archives and addapt its functions to our new game's context.
- No? Just archive these files we have. We don't need them now, but maybe we can reintroduce it in some other game and evolve it...

-Now with KH3 and Unreal, they were probably like:
- Will we include this one spell from BBS into our new game?
- Yes = Can we, really? Would remaking that waste too much of our development time? Oh it was a fun and worthy spell, so we're doing it, right? Let's remake everything from scratch, then. What wasn't good about it then that we can make it better now?
- No = oh well, less work to do! :D

Also, I think it is a given that Radient Garden and Daybreak Town will be playable areas in the next few games, just because they already have a lot of assets made for these worlds and it would be easy and faster using those ones than making completely new ones form scratch.

Yeah, development cycles absolutely will be longer than before, but still, I don't think it will take more time than KH3's development cycle, and things will absolutely evolve and get bigger and better the more games Square Enix releases.
Well considering how much they changed up the spells before it was probably a bit more than that, but yeah they definitely had less to figure out before than with the new engine.

That said KH3 did a great job rebuilding assets and creating new one's for games moving forward. As of this DLC we'll have basic working gameplay for at least 5 characters which they can expand on.

Characters like Kairi or Roxas getting their own game should be easier now with a moveset already developed.

In regards, to RG and Daybreak Town, i think you're most likely right, at least with Radiant Garden. Though I don't know how easy it is to make a cutscene set a playable area.
 

Sign

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In regards, to RG and Daybreak Town, i think you're most likely right, at least with Radiant Garden. Though I don't know how easy it is to make a cutscene set a playable area.

Very technically challenging, although it wouldn't be the first time they've had to do it. This is how Nomura described turning Disney Castle into a playable area for KH2:

However, since it had only appeared in cutscene form before, we hadn't taken characters walking around into account when we made it, creating an awkward map. We weren't able to use all the existing assets as they were, as we had to make a map that you can walk around properly in and battle in: it was a large scale remake. But, we couldn't deviate from how it looked in the previous game too much, so we worked very hard adjusting things. There are a lot of technical issues behind turning an area you originally shouldn't be able to fight in, into a place where battles can happen.
 

AdrianXXII

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Very technically challenging, although it wouldn't be the first time they've had to do it. This is how Nomura described turning Disney Castle into a playable area for KH2:
Sounds like the biggest challenge was in the design. I could see that being an issue with Daybreak Town. A lot of the created locations aren't really big arenas for combat.

RG on the other hand has already been included before and has locations designed for fighting, though we only saw one of said locations.
 

SS501

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If we stop to think about it, KH2 was the third game in the series in the same toolbox (Luminous Engine): there were already assets ready,

Ummm, KH2 didn't use Liminous engine and Luminous engine was created in 2011-2012.
KH2 used a custom engine based on C++. SE in the PS2 era were using customized one-off engines. KH2's engine specifically was built from scratch. I am not saying they didn't recycle a lot of work from KH1, this obviously happened since they were both using c++ engines.

I agree on everything else.
 

ZeVaine

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I get the impression we shouldn't have to wait too long in comparison to the time period between Kh2 and Kh3... Nomura seemed to hint at one side-game, at most, and that he planned that his team would get the DLC out ASAP so they can get the next entry in the series done.


I think specifically second visits were only done in Kh2 to give the illusion of being part of a larger/longer game than it actually was. It definitely worked in that regard, though we all lamented the hallway nature of that title as a side-effect.
 

Sign

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I think specifically second visits were only done in Kh2 to give the illusion of being part of a larger/longer game than it actually was. It definitely worked in that regard, though we all lamented the hallway nature of that title as a side-effect.

Pretty much. It's been a while but iirc their explanation was something along the lines of

A: "Hey, remember how we went back to Hollow Bastion in KH1? Why don't we do that for every world in KH2!"
B: "Okay, but we can't go back only to fight a boss and then leave. Let's think of scenarios that'll take place during those visits."

So rather than revisiting each world because the overarching plot demanded it, it was more like the other way around? To their credit, this decision was well received, but we still spent half the game meandering around and accomplishing nothing.
 

Zettaflare

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Pretty much. It's been a while but iirc their explanation was something along the lines of

A: "Hey, remember how we went back to Hollow Bastion in KH1? Why don't we do that for every world in KH2!"
B: "Okay, but we can't go back only to fight a boss and then leave. Let's think of scenarios that'll take place during those visits."

So rather than revisiting each world because the overarching plot demanded it, it was more like the other way around? To their credit, this decision was well received, but we still spent half the game meandering around and accomplishing nothing.
That's why I prefer KH3's two hour long visit to each Disney world over second visits.

At least the second visit to Beast's Castle wasn't total filler since it ended with the death of an organization member
 
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Elysium

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Pretty much. It's been a while but iirc their explanation was something along the lines of

A: "Hey, remember how we went back to Hollow Bastion in KH1? Why don't we do that for every world in KH2!"
B: "Okay, but we can't go back only to fight a boss and then leave. Let's think of scenarios that'll take place during those visits."

So rather than revisiting each world because the overarching plot demanded it, it was more like the other way around? To their credit, this decision was well received, but we still spent half the game meandering around and accomplishing nothing.
That wasn't because there were 2nd world visits though. That's because they refused to intertwine the Disney worlds with the plot.
 

GreyouTT

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That wasn't because there were 2nd world visits though. That's because they refused to intertwine the Disney worlds with the plot.
More like they weren't allowed to for a lot of them.

“For each different world we had to deal with a different team,” explains Nomura, “and [plotting] was largely down to what their feelings were on what they wanted to happen. There were some teams that were like, ‘Ooh, if you make a new story, you're going to kind of ruin the world that we created,’ whereas there were teams, like Toy Story, who said to us, ‘Well, we can't have it in that world, but if you want to make a new story, that's fine.’”

Also for perspective on how long scenarios took, Toy Box took two years to nail down. I can't imagine how long one took when they were dealing with a more controlling team.
 

cakito123

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I get the impression we shouldn't have to wait too long in comparison to the time period between Kh2 and Kh3... Nomura seemed to hint at one side-game, at most, and that he planned that his team would get the DLC out ASAP so they can get the next entry in the series done.


I think specifically second visits were only done in Kh2 to give the illusion of being part of a larger/longer game than it actually was. It definitely worked in that regard, though we all lamented the hallway nature of that title as a side-effect.

I don't agree with that, 2nd visits were really entertaining, at least for me. It was like, ok now the game is starting to end and we must revisit every world for some little happenings and challenges inside this universe we already explored 100% now. Some characters from the Org 13 will appear to set the pieces and suspense for the finale and next is the final world! I think it makes the universe seem a little more alive too, y know? Sora D. And G. are REALLY coming back later to see those disney characters, and things are still BAD or even WORSE in their worlds.
I really never seen any problem with 2nd visits in KH, it is more fun than NOT going to these worlds again and they never updating, at least for me.
It also makes the level design a bit more inventive with how difficult some worlds will be. Just because the first world you go is easy it doesnt mean the story cant change it later and make it harder in context and new challenges and bosses and areas. It makes going through game more varied and unexpected too.
 
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ZeVaine

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I'm not saying I don't/wouldn't like second visits, but just that there's a few reasons why we really only had it happen that way in one game.

More content and reasons to revisit the worlds is always something I want, but I'm skeptical of it happening again.
 

AdrianXXII

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I don't agree with that, 2nd visits were really entertaining, at least for me. It was like, ok now the game is starting to end and we must revisit every world for some little happenings and challenges inside this universe we already explored 100% now. Some characters from the Org 13 will appear to set the pieces and suspense for the finale and next is the final world! I think it makes the universe seem a little more alive too, y know? Sora D. And G. are REALLY coming back later to see those disney characters, and things are still BAD or even WORSE in their worlds.
I really never seen any problem with 2nd visits in KH, it is more fun than NOT going to these worlds again and they never updating, at least for me.
It also makes the level design a bit more inventive with how difficult some worlds will be. Just because the first world you go is easy it doesnt mean the story cant change it later and make it harder in context and new challenges and bosses and areas. It makes going through game more varied and unexpected too.
I think in concept second visits are a good idea, lets you have both a story based off the original movie and an original story building upon the relationship Sora and Co. formed with the hero, I just feel in KH2 they didn't use it as well as they could have.

Instead of just having random original plots they could have had the Org members cause trouble and you being able to fight one Org member per revisited world. Or alternatively address the Maleficent D plot B plot more than they ended up doing developing and fleshing it out more.
 

Elysium

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More like they weren't allowed to for a lot of them.



Also for perspective on how long scenarios took, Toy Box took two years to nail down. I can't imagine how long one took when they were dealing with a more controlling team.
That quote might be an excuse for KH3—it doesn’t work for KH2. KH3 was the first time they were ever forced to work with directors of the films they were using, which I attribute to Lasseter (who ran PIXAR) having taken over WDAS in the interim between KH2 and KH3 and also the fact that Nomura demanded PIXAR titles for the first time, too. Lasseter was the type to meddle in everything going on at Disney, even with ABC’s Once Upon a Time when they used the Brave and Frozen properties. I hope now that he's gone, the next KH title won't be as restricted.

Anyway, to my point, that didn't happen when KH2 was made. KH2’s plot irrelevant Disney worlds were entirely at Square’s doorstep.
 

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That quote might be an excuse for KH3—it doesn’t work for KH2. KH3 was the first time they were ever forced to work with directors of the films they were using, which I attribute to Lasseter (who ran PIXAR) having taken over WDAS in the interim between KH2 and KH3 and also the fact that Nomura demanded PIXAR titles for the first time, too. Lasseter was the type to meddle in everything going on at Disney, even with ABC’s Once Upon a Time when they used the Brave and Frozen properties. I hope now that he's gone, the next KH title won't be as restricted.

Anyway, to my point, that didn't happen when KH2 was made. KH2’s plot irrelevant Disney worlds were entirely at Square’s doorstep.
Oh, I misread the context of your post. My bad, I agree.
 

SuperSaiyanSora

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I get the impression we shouldn't have to wait too long in comparison to the time period between Kh2 and Kh3... Nomura seemed to hint at one side-game, at most, and that he planned that his team would get the DLC out ASAP so they can get the next entry in the series done.


I think specifically second visits were only done in Kh2 to give the illusion of being part of a larger/longer game than it actually was. It definitely worked in that regard, though we all lamented the hallway nature of that title as a side-effect.

If KH2 had only one-visit trips, the game would actually be super short, considering most of the events in the worlds only really take 30 minutes or so to finish. KH3 can do one-visit trips because the story that takes place is about two hours and the maps are massive.

On that note, even though people (not you) think that the next game should be quicker, it's still probably gonna take them a good 3-4 years approximately to get a game out there. Assuming they began right after KH3's release (which probably didn't happen, considering Nomura's comments in the Ultimania about things being a "blank slate"), you'd get a game around 2022-2023.

Final Mix/ReMIND content comes out a year after the base game, and they're always additions, never a complete overhaul of the game itself. So unless a KH MMORPG is in the works somewhere, the next title is still quite a ways off.
 

ZeVaine

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I just remember Nomura answering a question regarding not wanting to make too much DLC so that the team could move on.


And considering
1) how many side spinoffs he was able to justify on Kh2's success
2) how well Kh3 sold
3) how much he's blantantly set up for the future

I'm sure we'll be waiting longer than some old Assassin's Creed sequal or something, but it would be a really wasted opportunity - artistically and even somewhat from a business standpoint, to not try and get something out in the next few years. Especially if they arn't going the FFXV route of milking DLC.
 

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It'll at least be interesting to see what they accomplish with next gen hardware with all the things they've learned and assets they've created already.

I just hope they don't have the same focus on flash like they had with KH3, with better hardware i'm afraid they'll think in ways to make things even flashier than before..The Disney aspect i feel is a lost cause so i'm not really expecting any improvements from that
 
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