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Spoilers ► question regarding Nomura's views on the story so far?



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Sonofjafar

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Well this small question about if Nomura said anything about the Kingdom Hearts shipping community has blown up. I just wanted to know if there was something in an interview or something where he put a hint one way or another
 

Violet Pluto

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Coincidentally, the FF7 love triangle is the only romantic relationship Nomura has ever commented on. It's worth taking a look at his responses just to get some perspective and how that can apply to KH:

Source: TheLifestream





There's also this bit from the KH1 Ultimania. Bear in mind that the book was released before the localization/FM so Sephiroth isn't in the game yet, hence the vagueness.
I'm confused why they were asking Nomura. He isn't the creator nor writer for FF7, he did help with the story and other things but that feels kinda off topic.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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I'm confused why they were asking Nomura. He isn't the creator nor writer for FF7, he did help with the story and other things but that feels kinda off topic.
Because of his role in developing the story and characters. And then of course after 7’s release, he was elevated to a higher role both at SE and with the 7 brand. Him being director on the film and essentially the creative lead for the whole Compilation, of course interviewers believed he would have insight into these fictional relationships. Jokes on them, though. Nomura just doesn’t care about romance lol
 

Kaweebo

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As someone who doesn’t ship anything but has a functioning brain and can discern intent on-screen from people’s fantasies, there is no world where SoRiku is canon or will ever be. I’ve read theories from diehard shippers who are convinced it’ll happen, like the Sleeping Realm theory or the Heroine’s Journey and it all comes off like people hoping they can speak it into existence based on their very specific interpretation of certain events in the games and even the novels. They love to harp on authorial intent between the Japanese and English translations while ignoring that Tai Yasue speaks fluently in both and cross-checks with Disney to make sure the translations give the same idea across both languages, but those who can speak both love to interpret certain words in certain ways and ignoring different interpretations.

What really gets me is the idea that it’s Disney of all companies that are holding Square back from doing it, as it 1. Implies that this was Nomura’s intent all along which I certainly beg to differ on and 2. It implies that Disney would frown on it more than Square would, which is a little backwards since Disney has come out in support of the LGBT movement whereas Square very much doesn’t have an official position. Combine that with the common trope in Japanese media of two male characters who are seen as having a relationship that transcends normal friends yet are not actually romantically involved being interpreted as ‘queer baiting’ by some, and you get a very frustrating situation for all.

Personally, I appreciate the idea of two very close male characters who are emotionally or even spiritually connected without it necessarily needing to be romantic (Sam and Frodo from The Lord of the Rings are another great example of this), and while I’m fine with people liking what they like, making art and writing fanfiction, it is a little annoying to see people say that the romantic interpretation is the only valid one when I would say there’s plenty of evidence to contradict that. Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter as Nomura will do what he wants with the series and we all are just waiting.

To be sure, though, I do sympathize with shippers of both Sokai and Soriku as the romantic angles (at least for the former) have been so underdeveloped for so long and the latter have had a lot of development of their relationship that it almost seems like mixed signals from the developers, trying to tell you one thing while ostensibly giving another. I’m also in the camp that I think Kairi is hella underutilized throughout the games and while KH3 and Re:Mind go some ways to rectify that, it’s still not nearly as pronounced as the stuff between Sora and Riku across all of the other games. Hopefully, Square has realized this and are doing their best to establish Kairi as more of a co-protagonist with the boys in the future as thus far she has been very much a supporting character in the story. But we’ll have to see.
 
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Sonofjafar

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As someone who doesn’t ship anything but has a functioning brain and can discern intent on-screen from people’s fantasies, there is no world where SoRiku is canon or will ever be. I’ve read theories from diehard shippers who are convinced it’ll happen, like the Sleeping Realm theory or the Heroine’s Journey and it all comes off like people hoping they can speak it into existence based on their very specific interpretation of certain events in the games and even the novels. They love to harp on authorial intent between the Japanese and English translations while ignoring that Tai Yasue speaks fluently in both and cross-checks with Disney to make sure the translations give the same idea across both languages, but those who can speak both love to interpret certain words in certain ways and ignoring different interpretations.

What really gets me is the idea that it’s Disney of all companies that are holding Square back from doing it, as it 1. Implies that this was Nomura’s intent all along which I certainly beg to differ on and 2. It implies that Disney would frown on it more than Square would, which is a little backwards since Disney has come out in support of the LGBT movement whereas Square very much doesn’t have an official position. Combine that with the common trope in Japanese media of two male characters who are seen as having a relationship that transcends normal friends yet are not actually romantically involved being interpreted as ‘queer baiting’ by some, and you get a very frustrating situation for all.

Personally, I appreciate the idea of two very close male characters who are emotionally or even spiritually connected without it necessarily needing to be romantic (Sam and Frodo from The Lord of the Rings are another great example of this), and while I’m fine with people liking what they like, making art and writing fanfiction, it is a little annoying to see people say that the romantic interpretation is the only valid one when I would say there’s plenty of evidence to contradict that. Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter as Nomura will do what he wants with the series and we all are just waiting.

To be sure, though, I do sympathize with shippers of both Sokai and Soriku as the romantic angles (at least for the former) have been so underdeveloped for so long and the latter have had a lot of development of their relationship that it almost seems like mixed signals from the developers, trying to tell you one thing while ostensibly giving another. I’m also in the camp that I think Kairi is hella underutilized throughout the games and while KH3 and Re:Mind go some ways to rectify that, it’s still not nearly as pronounced as the stuff between Sora and Riku across all of the other games. Hopefully, Square has realized this and are doing their best to establish Kairi as more of a co-protagonist with the boys in the future as thus far she has been very much a supporting character in the story. But we’ll have to see.
I agree with most of what you said but I just went through a whole discussion about Disney’s views on LGBT and it’s not exactly looking good.
 

Kaweebo

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I agree with most of what you said but I just went through a whole discussion about Disney’s views on LGBT and it’s not exactly looking good.
I know they supported the bill in Florida but then did a complete 180 when there was backlash and now they’re apparently throwing some rep in upcoming films like the one prominent lady in the Lightyear film will presumably share a kiss with her female love interest. So I do get what you mean, but Disney has had a more openly positive outlook on it versus Square who tends not to really talk about it. I honestly prefer Square’s method anyway as I don’t think LGBT characters need to be announced as a ‘feature’ (think LeFou in the Beauty and the Beast remake). If they’re going to be included at all, it should be a normal thing like every other character is.

But every time Disney does it, it’s a marketing scheme. And that’s why I think they’d jump at the chance if Nomura did make SoRiku a thing because itd look good on them. It’s a cynical business move, but that’s my logic for why I don’t think it’s Disney ‘holding Square back’.
 
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kirabook

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Disney doesn't care about LGBT issues at all. If they think it will earn them cash (announcing it as a feature) or won't lose them cash (threats of boycotts and backlash), they'll support it. If they think LGBT issues will harm their company, they'll drop it like a hot potato.

And by "Disney", I mean executives. There's a 0% chance that a significant portion of their employees, especially the creative side, aren't LGBT themselves.
 
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Elysium

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But every time Disney does it, it’s a marketing scheme. And that’s why I think they’d jump at the chance if Nomura did make SoRiku a thing because itd look good on them. It’s a cynical business move, but that’s my logic for why I don’t think it’s Disney ‘holding Square back’.
Even in the hypothetical scenario that Nomura actually would like SoRiku to be canon, but knows that's not possible in today's world--it would be more a case of assumption on his part about what Disney would allow than a case of him asking and them saying no. Much like how he just assumed Disney would never allow Dissidia (a fighting game with Disney characters) without ever asking them.

I disagree with you on Disney announcing a feature with a LGBT character though. That may be the only way to get a film with a LGBT protagonist or LGBT romance. Encanto's working title was "Latina princess film," from what I remember. There's nothing wrong with them setting out to make a specific character and story. These things never happen organically. It wouldn't have taken around 80 years to get the first Black protagonist or 90 years to get the first Latina character, without them doing it purposely. It's sad, but also true.

Personally, I appreciate the idea of two very close male characters who are emotionally or even spiritually connected without it necessarily needing to be romantic (Sam and Frodo from The Lord of the Rings are another great example of this), and while I’m fine with people liking what they like, making art and writing fanfiction, it is a little annoying to see people say that the romantic interpretation is the only valid one when I would say there’s plenty of evidence to contradict that. Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter as Nomura will do what he wants with the series and we all are just waiting.

I can appreciate male friendships, too. My problem when I hear this is usually.... Do people actually think there is a dearth of intimate male friendships in media? I'd say it's the most common human interaction you can find across the board. Even heterosexual relationships are rarely depicted with as much nuance as male friends often are. A LGBT romance is nowhere in the same sphere of being common, it's probably the least common thing you can find. So it does irk me somewhat when I hear the insinuation shippers are trying to take away a good male friendship as if that's so hard to find in media. Not saying that's you, necessarily.

To be sure, though, I do sympathize with shippers of both Sokai and Soriku as the romantic angles (at least for the former) have been so underdeveloped for so long and the latter have had a lot of development of their relationship that it almost seems like mixed signals from the developers, trying to tell you one thing while ostensibly giving another. I’m also in the camp that I think Kairi is hella underutilized throughout the games and while KH3 and Re:Mind go some ways to rectify that, it’s still not nearly as pronounced as the stuff between Sora and Riku across all of the other games. Hopefully, Square has realized this and are doing their best to establish Kairi as more of a co-protagonist with the boys in the future as thus far she has been very much a supporting character in the story. But we’ll have to see.
My problem with Kairi is the character herself. She was always a poor character; even in KH1, she was easily the worst of the four original characters. I don't buy the idea that more screentime can fix that. Usually, this kind of hope comes across to me like the fandom is hoping for a personality transplant, which is different from development. Just putting her onscreen with a Keyblade in her hand isn't going to make her interesting, otherwise characters like Ven and Terra would be more popular.
 

kirabook

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I disagree with you on Disney announcing a feature with a LGBT character though. That may be the only way to get a film with a LGBT protagonist or LGBT romance. Encanto's working title was "Latina princess film," from what I remember. There's nothing wrong with them setting out to make a specific character and story. These things never happen organically. It wouldn't have taken around 80 years to get the first Black protagonist or 90 years to get the first Latina character, without them doing it purposely. It's sad, but also true.

I think what they mean is every about 6 months, Disney announce their "First gay character!!!!11!!! Oh my gosh!" in whatever new title they're putting out. Like "Gasp shock! That last time wasn't the first time. THIS is the first time guys oh my gosh our first GAY character aren't you so impressed?!?!?!"

It's a meme at this point. They do announce it like it's a new button in a car commercial and almost every example of their "first gay characters" are lackluster and sometimes literally a background character in a shot for 5 seconds.

I don't mind when big media companies are like "Hey look, we made some LGBT media guys." This isn't that.



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Kaweebo

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.I can appreciate male friendships, too. My problem when I hear this is usually.... Do people actually think there is a dearth of intimate male friendships in media? I'd say it's the most common human interaction you can find across the board. Even heterosexual relationships are rarely depicted with as much nuance as male friends often are. A LGBT romance is nowhere in the same sphere of being common, it's probably the least common thing you can find. So it does irk me somewhat when I hear the insinuation shippers are trying to take away a good male friendship as if that's so hard to find in media. Not saying that's you, necessarily.
I do, actually. Especially in Western media, the only actual close platonic friendships I can think of that really fits even a similar dynamic to Sora and Riku off the top of my head is Frodo and Sam in LotR and Cap and Bucky in the MCU. Possibly Kirk and Spock as well and maybe Luke and Han Solo, though my definition of 'intimate' in this case means that the relationship is a focal point of the story so that's why I hesitate to add them. In Japanese media, you've got your Narutos and Sasukes, your Gons and your Killuas but there's not really an overabundance, either. There's definitely more than homosexual male relationships but that kind of tracks with the demographics in the real world so I'm not sure what people expect there necessarily.


And of course, in every case of the above there have been shippers pining for the two male characters to be in a romantic relationship. This is natural and has been going on since at least the 60s with KirkXSpock fanfiction and art making it into unofficial fan magazines, so it's not like it's JUST SoraXRiku that is the subject of this sort of fervor. And that's all fine and good, like I said previously, I honestly don't care what shippers do in their spare time whether it's making art, writing fanfiction or just talking about their favorite ship. They're not "taking away a good male friendship" because it's not actually being taken. It's not canon, it's fan works.

My problem with Kairi is the character herself. She was always a poor character; even in KH1, she was easily the worst of the four original characters. I don't buy the idea that more screentime can fix that. Usually, this kind of hope comes across to me like the fandom is hoping for a personality transplant, which is different from development. Just putting her onscreen with a Keyblade in her hand isn't going to make her interesting, otherwise characters like Ven and Terra would be more popular.
Well here I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think Kairi has a well of untapped potential that Nomura, for whatever reason (I'm sure you may have your own theories, as do I), just hasn't bothered to tap into. But she was never a bad character imo, just very underdeveloped. She was the most fleshed out in KH1; spunky and playful, yet with a wistfulness and wisdom beyond her years because of her own mysterious (and as we later learn, horrible) backstory. Of the trio, Kairi is the one who is the most aware of how scary it can be to grow up and face your fears and so actively chose not to until it was forced on her by Ansem. Whereas Riku wasn't prepared for what was to come but wanted to face it anyway and Sora was mostly content as long as he was with his friends. Plus, as the only main Princess of Heart, her powers are virtually limitless within the scope of the universe and could be very interesting to explore.

The only problem is Nomura didn't seize on any of what was there in KH1 for the sequel or even KH3 beyond just handing her a Keyblade. I've always looked to Shiki Misaki from TWEWY as an ideal of who Kairi could have been if they grew her more from KH1 (taking out some of the self-loathing and depression from the character), and becoming a more well-rounded character rather than a cement block with a pink dress on. This is why I say she has potential but is being wasted. There's something there and she certainly has her own selection of fans, but it's being shelved 99% of the time. And regardless of anything else, as the third part of what is the main, original Destiny trio, she deserves to be better characterized than she has been, regardless of who ends up with who or whatever happens next.
 

Elysium

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I do, actually. Especially in Western media, the only actual close platonic friendships I can think of that really fits even a similar dynamic to Sora and Riku off the top of my head is Frodo and Sam in LotR and Cap and Bucky in the MCU. Possibly Kirk and Spock as well and maybe Luke and Han Solo, though my definition of 'intimate' in this case means that the relationship is a focal point of the story so that's why I hesitate to add them. In Japanese media, you've got your Narutos and Sasukes, your Gons and your Killuas but there's not really an overabundance, either.
I won't argue, but this is one thing I'd say it's safe to say goes beyond mere opinion.

And of course, in every case of the above there have been shippers pining for the two male characters to be in a romantic relationship.
That's true. It's because LGBT largely don't exist in Western media, especially not as a central feature. The few crumbs we get usually aren't very good. I'm not going to put down heterosexual shippers or anything, but it's kind of a different reality really. I feel that LGBT shippers take the story where canon is often too cowardly to go in many cases, not simply a "I prefer x to x" as it is with het shippers. LGBT shipping doesn't specifically target male friendships though, there are plenty of male rivalries that attract the same thing. Any time there is a mass of emotion onscreen between two male characters, the way certain scenes happen or lines are read can unintentionally lead the mind in a different direction. And then there are cases like with KH, where there seems to be a preponderance of scenes and interactions that purposely direct shippers in a specific direction.

They're not "taking away a good male friendship" because it's not actually being taken. It's not canon, it's fan works.
I agree, SoKai shippers have heteronormativity on their side, so this was never an equal fight. Why feel so bothered that there are people who believe this series is as an example of queerbaiting though, I'm not sure. It's not enough to win the fight based on the fact that LGBT aren't within the mainstream, it's almost like they want to pretend the other side's arguments are without merit entirely. I think it's undeniable that Sora and Riku have more onscreen chemistry with one another than is displayed by most other characters in the series, actually. I feel like it's been a recurring joke so renowned, it's been commented on by more than shippers, even by people who don't even like the ship.
 
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Kaweebo

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I feel that LGBT shippers take the story where canon is often too cowardly to go in many cases, not simply a "I prefer x to x" as it is with het shippers. LGBT shipping doesn't specifically target male friendships though, there are plenty of male rivalries that attract the same thing. Any time there is a mass of emotion onscreen between two male characters, the way certain scenes happen or lines are read can unintentionally lead the mind in a different direction. And then there are cases like with KH, where there seems to be a preponderance of scenes and interactions that purposely direct shippers in a specific direction.
Oh, I completely get that. Like I said, it comes across like mixed signals from the developers which is bound to frustrate both sides of the aisle. The main thing that bugs me is this idea that it was intentional and accusations that anybody who doesn't see it is merely blind or ignorant to the series as a whole or to Nomura. I take certain offense to that as someone who's been in this fandom for near-on twenty years; the implication that I'm merely blinded by a hetero-tinted glasses to something that was meant to be seen as inherently queer-coded or, as they say, hinting towards an overtly gay endgame ala The Legend of Korra, yet ignoring a wealth of instances in the story (including up to most recently in KH3) where that just does not seem to be the case. A case of interpretation without regard for authorial intent is one thing but choosing to ignore evidence right in your face and accusing others of "not paying attention to the subtleties" is more annoying than anything.
I think it's undeniable that Sora and Riku have more onscreen chemistry with one another than is displayed by most other characters in the series, actually. I feel like it's been a recurring joke so renowned, it's been commented on by more than shippers, even by people who don't even like the ship.
Of course they do, they're the two main playable characters and share probably the most screentime either with each other or at least speaking about each other in the entire series, save characters like Donald and Goofy. Heck, if Nomura actually intended it, with what we've seen so far, I can see it making sense. I just don't think Nomura has intended it, in the same way that Masashi Kishimoto didn't intend for Naruto and Sasuke to be together despite a lot of the shipping going that way, too. You can say it's bad or 'cowardly' writing and I'll probably be inclined to agree with you, but that doesn't mean it's wrong, either. And it's just annoying to be told I'm missing something when I can understand the premise of it very well and even where SoRiku shippers are coming from without actually believing that in some 4D chess game ten years down the line, Nomura will put the wedding rings on their fingers and have them kiss and get married at the end.
 
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Elysium

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The main thing that bugs me is this idea that it was intentional
That's where we fundamentally disagree. I definitely do think it's intentional, undeniably so; that's not mutually exclusive with knowing SoKai is what will be canon at the end of it all. That's why it's called queerbaiting. Many things that are true are found offensive by someone or other; sometimes it's unavoidable. The mere existence of LGBT is offensive to some people, what can you do.
 
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Kaweebo

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That's where we fundamentally disagree. I definitely do think it's intentional, undeniably so; that's not mutually exclusive with knowing SoKai is what will be canon at the end of it all. That's why it's called queerbaiting. Many things that are true are found offensive by someone or other; sometimes it's unavoidable. The mere existence of LGBT is offensive to some people, what can you do.
You think Nomura is queerbaiting on purpose? I’ll admit, I’m at a genuine loss because to me that is pretty mutually exclusive from it being canon. I’m assuming you have a reason to back that up because I’m curious to hear it.
 

Elysium

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The definition of queerbaiting is baiting audience-members with one thing and ending with another.
 

Kaweebo

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The definition of queerbaiting is baiting audience-members with one thing and ending with another.
Yes, we agree on definition. But you said that the queer-baiting was intentional, not accidental. What did you mean? Why would they intentionally do that and how do you know?
 

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I don't think the queerbaiting is intentional. I think the biggest actual queerbaiting in western media was the Superwholock phase of the internet. Those show writers knew exactly what they were doing and who they were attracting and they did it all on purpose for the ratings and to keep their volatile fanbases onboard. To me, that is peak queerbaiting. The definition of queerbaiting in every way possible.

Whereas with Kingdom Hearts... I don't think it fits, and I don't think Nomura is attempting to queer bait anyone. I assume his intentions is to give everyone a piece of pie with no definitive answers regarding romance. Is that in itself queerbaiting? I don't think so. Outside of the story the straight ships might have the advantage of well, existing. But inside the story? I personally do not feel like straight ships (such as SoKai) has an advantage over queer ships. Nothing these characters do seem absolutely definitive romantically unless they're from a Disney movie.

There's no way Nomura is sitting in a board meeting like "How do we keep all the queer people invested in the story? Maybe we should have one of them confess their love and then die immediately forever. Yeah, that'll work. People will LOVE IT and they'll get off our backs and enjoy our heteroship afterwards."
 

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As someone who doesn't really ship any ships outside of OT3 content for this series, I don't believe Nomura is intentionally queerbaiting. He isn't particularly interested in writing romance in general, and even the "canon" pairing of SoKai is given little to nothing outside of a couple heavy hints. Not helping the fact that Kairi as a character is so severely underdeveloped compared to Sora or Riku. I figure they are all going to remain childhood friends until the end of time and Nomura won't ever make any pairing canon.
 
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