Recapturing the magic

[Cumguardian69]

KH1 is 99% nostalgia.

•Bad camera even in HD FM,
•Attacks take 20 years to come out, bad lag on ground finishers
•Flo*ty air combos
•stop and gravity are broken
•Final rest has the godliest enemy gauntlet in all of KH but it doesnt have a checkpoint so you can get one shotted and lose progress
•Bad cutscenes, inconsistent story

 

[KingdomKurdistan]

KH1 is 99% nostalgia.

•Bad camera even in HD FM,
•Attacks take 20 years to come out, bad lag on ground finishers
•Flo*ty air combos
•stop and gravity are broken
•Final rest has the godliest enemy gauntlet in all of KH but it doesnt have a checkpoint so you can get one shotted and lose progress
•Bad cutscenes, inconsistent story

The first one is bad but doesn't really come across as a dealbreaker for comparing the games based on overall affect. The camerawork for Age of Ultron is streets ahead of the first Avengers film but is still a poorer film despite not looking like a low budget network TV show.

Second, third and fourth: I have no idea why they're significant as I never used them and thus would not factor into any nostalgic factor for me personally.

Fourth one can be frustrating, yes. But that's the point of the challenge and I beat it by actually thinking about my strategy over button mashing. Again, it's the end game so odd thing to use as evidence that the game is "99% nostalgia"

The sixth: insert gif of SDG saying: "whaaaaaaat?"

You've listed bunch of personal preferences and inane nitpicks and then said those things are evidence that 99% of everyone else's view of the game is coloured by nostalgia. Your thesis does not follow your premise.

 

[AdrianXXII]

The first one is bad but doesn't really come across as a dealbreaker for comparing the games based on overall affect. The camerawork for Age of Ultron is streets ahead of the first Avengers film but is still a poorer film despite not looking like a low budget network TV show.

Second, third and fourth: I have no idea why they're significant as I never used them and thus would not factor into any nostalgic factor for me personally.

Fourth one can be frustrating, yes. But that's the point of the challenge and I beat it by actually thinking about my strategy over button mashing. Again, it's the end game so odd thing to use as evidence that the game is "99% nostalgia"

The sixth: insert gif of SDG saying: "whaaaaaaat?"

You've listed bunch of personal preferences and inane nitpicks and then said those things are evidence that 99% of everyone else's view of the game is coloured by nostalgia. Your thesis does not follow your premise.

You made the mistake to think the troll was making a good faithed argument.

Thing is like you said later games could have improved on various aspects, but that doesnt make them better than KH1 (and it's Final Mix) as a game. KH1 delivered something that has a different feel and magic then the other games in the series.

Obviously personal preference also plays a role. If you don't like the simpler and more straight forward plot, didnt care for the take on the combat, which had things to encourage players to take risks, dont like platforming and prefer flatter designs and would rather just fight your way to the next stage then find the puzzel pieces to unlock the door, KH1 wont have the same charm and magic.

 

[KingdomKurdistan]

You made the mistake to think the troll was making a good faithed argument.

Thing is like you said later games could have improved on various aspects, but that doesnt make them better than KH1 (and it's Final Mix) as a game. KH1 delivered something that has a different feel and magic then the other games in the series.

Obviously personal preference also plays a role. If you don't like the simpler and more straight forward plot, didnt care for the take on the combat, which had things to encourage players to take risks, dont like platforming and prefer flatter designs and would rather just fight your way to the next stage then find the puzzel pieces to unlock the door, KH1 wont have the same charm and magic.

Yeah. It's fine to say the game is bad because of these issues.

But there's zero basis on which to claim everyone else's perception of it is 99% nostalgia because they ignore these issues.

What evidence is there of that? If that was the case no one would ever watch old movies because newer ones are clearly technically superior.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Yeah. It's fine to say the game is bad because of these issues.

But there's zero basis on which to claim everyone else's perception of it is 99% nostalgia because they ignore these issues.

What evidence is there of that? If that was the case no one would ever watch old movies because newer ones are clearly technically superior.

Agreed, by this logic the Beauty and the Beast (the animated one) must also be pure nostalgia, seeing the CGI used in the movie isn't all that great and there are a few scenes that arent quite as polished as others.
There are more things that go into making a movie or game appealing and beloved than how flawless it is.

 

[disney233]

KH1 is 99% nostalgia.

•Bad camera even in HD FM,
•Attacks take 20 years to come out, bad lag on ground finishers
•Flo*ty air combos
•stop and gravity are broken
•Final rest has the godliest enemy gauntlet in all of KH but it doesnt have a checkpoint so you can get one shotted and lose progress
•Bad cutscenes, inconsistent story

That 6th one is what gets me the most. I've watched walkthroughs of 1 most recently, and the story is much...MUCH more consistent than the later installments. It's literally a simple plot to digest. And what defines a bad cutscene in 1 when the series gave us...
The drama cutscene solely for the need of drama (At least the drama cutscenes in 1 make sense)

And this....quote.

 

[the red monster]

•Bad camera even in HD FM,

Yeah the bad camera in tarzan's world was a nightmare

 

[KudoTsurugi]

I never got the feeling Nojima really *got* KH, we don't even know to what extent he helped with KH2 and it seems like his involvement in KH3 was more lip service than anything. Also.... The guy has crazy bad plots. I'm so on board with Akiyama coming back because WoFF was a delight, and I always appreciated Watanabe's work. Its disappointing to see these guys take a back seat. I guess a bright spot is Nomura rates Akiyama very highly, hopefully he decides its time for his grand return

Fair enough, though I think he’s still part of the 3-piece pie that helped make KH1‘s story what it was, for better or worse. Plus, hopefully with all three at the helm, they could balance each other out, maybe tone down the less favourable aspects of Nojima’s writing or help pick up something he might miss.

 

[TrueTroper]

IMHO, I'm not even sure that going back to KH's original writing team would fix the mess that KH is in these days. Back when KH1 was first released, Nomura didn't have as much "power" over the series to do whatever he wanted--he was the character designer who created the physical appearances of the characters. The writers worked to craft the plot with the characters Nomura offered them, and Executive Producer Shinji Hashimoto oversaw the production of it all. Nomura couldn't go wild creating and introducing new characters into the story as he pleased because he required someone else's approval to do so. Similarly, the writers couldn't get too ridiculous with the plot twists and shove them into the story whenever they wanted. Not without Shinji Hashimoto's approval, of course. And the fact that the original KH1 is still regarded as a "magical" experience shows how well Hashimoto succeeded in keeping everyone's whims in check and kept them focused on their tasks.

Hashimoto served as KH's original Executive Producer until BBS, after the release of which he retired from the position and left Nomura to take his place. And I think we can all agree that it's post-BBS, after Hashimoto retired and Nomura took over control of the series, that things got out of hand and KH's plot truly began to get crazy with things like time travel, body surfing, random plot twists, etc. The fact that Nomura went straight from character designer to executive producer of the KH series meant he could do whatever he wanted, no questions asked.

And, IMHO, I think that's what's really wrong with the series these days. Nomura has too much power to just do whatever he wants with it. KH1's plot had some awkwardness, but it was definitely easier to understand than what Nomura's now writing post-BBS. What's the saying? "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." In KH3, Nomura gave himself not just one or two jobs to work on, but THREE: Executive Producer, co-writer, and character designer. That's A LOT of influence for just one person to have in the development of a SINGLE GAME.

So can the KH series recapture the ‘magical’ feeling of the original KH1 game? IMHO, that's a blunt no. I think a more appropriate question is whether or not Nomura can improve his writing skills to match the feeling of the original KH game.

(Also if I got the name wrong of KH1's executive producer, please let me know and I will edit the post to change it!)

ETA: Just making things more readable. My initial post was a mess. lol

 

[SweetYetSalty]

Honestly no. The series has changed too much. The recent

Spoiler Show

Smash Trailer with Sora in it

felt more like a old school classic Kingdom Hearts title. It made me realize just how much I missed what Kingdom Hearts use to be. I love plenty of titles beyond KH1, half of my favorite characters didn't even debut until later side games, but I miss the days where the games were a fun adventure the full way. KH3 tried to have the old feel with what it had to work with. As others have said, KH1 was lightning in a bottle at the right time and place. And Disney isn't what it was when KH first debuted.

While I don't think the series can recapture that KH1 magic, that doesn't mean future titles can't create magic of their own. I still have hope the stuff they are gonna do with Yozora side will be good.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I do have to admit that I have a massive case of deja-vu with this whole topic as I've seen it surface not once but twice or even more ever since I entered the KH series back in 2004 (I was an anonymous reader of this forum way before I officially joined in 2010 too).

Milestones of putting KH I on a pedestal and yearning for arbitrary "lost magic" was already a thing when KH 2 was newly out as well as after the handheld trinity was "finished" with the release of BBS and I still to this day don't get what the big fuss about this was and apparently still is.

Granted, part of it may be because I never ever experienced the first game as the supposed "stand alone" title it first was, I literally finished the first KH on PS2 about a month before KH 2 came out and had watched CoM via online videos in the meantime.

It is certainly obvious that the writing quality of scenarios and dialogue declined the further the series marched on with less co-writers on board with every new title but that can't be the only thing as the first KH certainly also does have quite some hiccups on its own which isn't just a clunky camera and (to me) unnecessary "Donkey Kong" and/or "Super Mario" elements like the frustrating jumping elements in both Deep Jungle and Monstro, the latter probably one of the most boring worlds I've ever set foot in.

That I was an avid Final Fantasy fan first and mostly uninterested in Disney apart from the German comics with Mickey, Donald & co, the original Ducktales show and Gargoyles may also have served to screw my general perspective into a different base position as I always found KH I's story taken on its own to be quite full of standard clichés and tropes, with the sudden reveal of "Ansem" as the hidden main antagonist being less of a problem due to it being almost a homage to FF where this happened too in semi-regular patterns i.e. Xande->Cloud of Darkness, Golbez->Zemus, Edea->Ultimecia etc.

----
In light of recent (as in the last ten years or so) developments though I am inclined to support the notion that Nomura overall has too much creative control, or rather, there's no balancing factor present to keep his mood and interest swings in check for the sake of internal coherence of the series' own internal universe.
Nomura not only changes things on a whim because of his interests switching he also wants to try out single story beats or "gimmicks" always with as many twists and "surprises" as possible throwing narrative coherence and characterization of his own characters into the wind in the process.

That (apparently) only he knows all possible twists and turns in the overarching narrative frame is also not a good sign since I think it was in one of the interviews leading up to KH III that Nomura admitted that even he himself starts to lose the overview of some parts of his own created universe.

Even the best team of writers can only create something useful and coherent from an existing fictional universe if they have enough of the groundwork and established elements of it to work with.
KH I had no already established wider fictional universe beyond what the "Ansem Reports", the important Disney characters and the Final Fantasy cameos disclosed during in-game dialogue so it was not an issue back then.

This last sentence is also a factor as to why I would answer the question of "recapturing the magic of KH 1" with a clear no as well because the basic elements which made KH 1 what it was in 2002 cannot be replicated nowadays, not in the mix that was present back then.

 

[Zackarix]

In light of recent (as in the last ten years or so) developments though I am inclined to support the notion that Nomura overall has too much creative control, or rather, there's no balancing factor present to keep his mood and interest swings in check for the sake of internal coherence of the series' own internal universe.
Nomura not only changes things on a whim because of his interests switching he also wants to try out single story beats or "gimmicks" always with as many twists and "surprises" as possible throwing narrative coherence and characterization of his own characters into the wind in the process.

That (apparently) only he knows all possible twists and turns in the overarching narrative frame is also not a good sign since I think it was in one of the interviews leading up to KH III that Nomura admitted that even he himself starts to lose the overview of some parts of his own created universe.

It's George Lucas syndrome. There's no question that Nomura is a talented director and a great idea man, but it takes a team of writers to translate his creative input into a coherent story. Over the years all the actual writers have left KH, leaving only Masaru Oka who is clearly not a strong enough writer. SE isn't going to step in because Nomura is now one of their biggest names and KH sells no matter how much of a joke the story becomes.

But I think a large part of KH3's story issues can be attributed to long video game development cycles. It's entirely possible that when DDD was released in 2012 Nomura was hyped for the epic conclusion of the Xehanort Saga, but when it was time to actually write that story inspiration had died. Instead Nomura had all these shiny new ideas that he wanted to get to ASAP. So he puts minimal energy into concluding the saga and there were so many sequel hooks front and center. And the worst part about those sequel hooks is that there's no guarantee that they'll be satisfactorily fulfilled either - who's to say that newer, shinier ideas won't be on the horizon by the time those games come out?

If I were put in charge of course correcting KH's story the first thing I'd mandate would be to prioritize the present story over setup for the future. A game should tell a complete story with a beginning, middle, and end. If you can't do that then the only magic you'll have will be the art of having an infinite amount of "To Be Continued"

 

[Absent]

But I think a large part of KH3's story issues can be attributed to long video game development cycles. It's entirely possible that when DDD was released in 2012 Nomura was hyped for the epic conclusion of the Xehanort Saga, but when it was time to actually write that story inspiration had died. Instead Nomura had all these shiny new ideas that he wanted to get to ASAP. So he puts minimal energy into concluding the saga and there were so many sequel hooks front and center. And the worst part about those sequel hooks is that there's no guarantee that they'll be satisfactorily fulfilled either - who's to say that newer, shinier ideas won't be on the horizon by the time those games come out?

I always got the same vibe. Many writers suffer from this and it becomes a bad habit that can't be unlearned easily.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Milestones of putting KH I on a pedestal and yearning for arbitrary "lost magic" was already a thing when KH 2 was newly out as well as after the handheld trinity was "finished" with the release of BBS and I still to this day don't get what the big fuss about this was and apparently still is.

I can't say what it is for everyone and as previously mentioned I feel like it's hard to pin down. However I feel lot of the stuff I miss are simple things, like there being puzzles to solve, small little touches like the puppies following you around, unlocking new parts of a map by exploring or by gaining new skills. It's nearly 20 years later and I'm still sure I found out all the little secrets some of these worlds have to offer.

I liked how each world felt like it was part of the story, either we were messing with Maleficent's plan, learning more about the way things work or developing the relationship between the main three characters.

The platforming isn't great, but I much prefer it to having everything on one level and not having to look for the treasure chests.

Sure KH1 isn't a master piece in storytelling or gameplay, but I honestly can say it's the game in the series I'm most likely to replay and that after being certain that BBS was my favorite for the longest time. There's a lot of things about the game that are rather frustrating, but I feel like the whole package kind of balances it out.

In light of recent (as in the last ten years or so) developments though I am inclined to support the notion that Nomura overall has too much creative control, or rather, there's no balancing factor present to keep his mood and interest swings in check for the sake of internal coherence of the series' own internal universe.
Nomura not only changes things on a whim because of his interests switching he also wants to try out single story beats or "gimmicks" always with as many twists and "surprises" as possible throwing narrative coherence and characterization of his own characters into the wind in the process.

Yeah this is definitely an issue. I like the guy's ideas, but I feel he needs an editor that says no and can kind of process them into more cohesive and a writing team that knows how to translate it all into a well paced story with proper development for it's ever expanding cast of characters.

 

[TrueTroper]

I will agree with the statement that Nomura has a tendency to use too many sequel hooks and IMHO it's actually part of the reason the franchise has deteriorated so much: it’s all just building up to the NEXT big thing—until the conclusion of those sequel hooks either underwhelms or misses the mark entirely. Although to be fair, KH2's ending was EXCELLENT as the closing saga of three games worth of content (KH-CoM-KH2); and KH1 and CoM had great endings of their own.

Let’s look at this another way: Re:Mind was Nomura on damage control—the first paid DLC he's released so far for ANY Kingdom Hearts game—his attempt to fix everything wrong with KH3’s ending and address fan complaints to show that he was at least making an effort to listen… And even then, he just couldn’t resist adding in more than a few new hooks: Vanitas suddenly having a backstory; Kairi's on-off competence; Axel, Roxas and Xion needing to fight Xemnas; Chirithy showing up because?; the Nameless Star; YOZORA; Xigbar; Luxord; and so much more… And that was just ONE DLC that’s only a fraction of the original’s size... And none of these sequel hooks were answered in that same DLC, meaning that they're going to keep on weighing down the plot until they are answered.

I also agree that either Nomura needs to hire a team of ghost writers to help him with the plot, or he needs to have writers who aren't intimidated by the fact that his rank as Executive and a fellow contributor to KH's story means he can fire them on the spot if he decides he doesn't like their ideas or if they say no to him. As things are now, Nomura just gets away with too much and the story is snowballing out of his control. And I don't think any of us want Phase 2 to snowball until it becomes a repeat of KH3.

 

[kaseykockroach]

What you guys call magic, I say "guys, just go play Bug Fables. The only RPG most anyone needs in this world".

 

[Cumguardian69]

Do we know what happened to the XBlade? Like Xehanoet summons it inside his brain then Sora and team use it to lock KH. But like...did Sora just ditch it? Was it broken down because the host summoner (xeanbort) died? Or something else entirely

 

[Launchpad]

In my opinion, KH1's secret sauce is that Sora and Riku were travelling around for their own reasons. Sora wanted to find his friends and eventually saw fit to help people in different worlds, as well as discovering that he could seal keyholes to save the worlds. Riku was desperately looking for a way to save Kairi and also seek power to stay stronger than Sora. Their central goals were always what kept them moving forward and made their adventures seem more personal.

Ever since KH2 (or CoM in Riku's case), Sora and Riku just listen to the wizard or Mickey respectively. I cannot believe three of Sora's adventures have begun with this bitch wizard telling him all this stuff and Sora agreeing that he cares about it and will do it. This is not cash money and it is in fact, without any brim.

If anything, KH4 is setting up the best Sora and Riku story in a long time, because they're both going to a world where the fucking wizard and mouse can't send instructions.

 

[2 quid is good]

I totally agree with Launchpad's post, I hate Yensid since the second I saw him, but I have to disagree with this:

Ever since KH2 (or CoM in Riku's case), Sora and Riku just listen to the wizard or Mickey respectively.

Sora actively goes against Mickey more than a few times during the course of KH2, and finding Riku is still his main goal, the organisation is just a side piece for him until they make it personal by getting Kairi involved/setting off the battle of Hollow Bastion

 

[SuperNova]

Really gotta say that I am looking forward to not having Yensid being part of the active plot next game. Sora and Riku will actually have to figure things out on their own without the wizard or king mouse around.

KH3 was the worst in terms of Mickey/Yensid. At least in KH2 Sora opposed Mickey's instructions enough that it felt like he still had agency.