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Red-Eyed Unknown



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Nutari

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That doesn't make sense at all.

Sora's heart was(and is) connected to Ventus, not to Vanitas. Vanitas only gained Sora's looks due to his still remaining connection to Ventus.
Ven's heart went to sleep (or rather, was forced to) because it was so heavily damaged after the destruction of the X-blade the connection to Sora wasn't sufficient enough to keep it going.
The injury was worse than when Vanitas was created, so something more than the connection was needed.

It was Ven's connection to Sora's heart which allowed Sora to feel Ven's great pain and sadness after his heart was nearly destroyed in the ending of the Final Episode.
Riku even commented on it when he suggested to Sora what to do because someone connected to him is sad.

Sora then reaches out to Ven's wounded heart ("Can you hear me?"), which follows Sora's voice through their connection into Sora's heart where Ven then pleads with Sora to let him stay.


And boom goes the dynamite. Knowing Nomoura, he will come up with some lame excuse as to how Vanitas can return. (clone anybody?) And then the unversed come back! But couldn't unversed technically exist if somebody got UBER pissed about something? The Unversed are manifestations of anger and hate pretty much.
 

Genocide

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That doesn't make sense at all.

Sora's heart was(and is) connected to Ventus, not to Vanitas. Vanitas only gained Sora's looks due to his still remaining connection to Ventus.

Welcome to the conversation. I know this and I assume you know this too. Which is why I specifically didn't take the long way to get to my point.

Ven's heart went to sleep (or rather, was forced to) because it was so heavily damaged after the destruction of the X-blade the connection to Sora wasn't sufficient enough to keep it going.

You'll soon be arriving at my point about 2 posts too late.

The injury was worse than when Vanitas was created, so something more than the connection was needed.

It was Ven's connection to Sora's heart which allowed Sora to feel Ven's great pain and sadness after his heart was nearly destroyed in the ending of the Final Episode.
Riku even commented on it when he suggested to Sora what to do because someone connected to him is sad.

You're almost there. Keep going....

Sora then reaches out to Ven's wounded heart ("Can you hear me?"), which follows Sora's voice through their connection into Sora's heart where Ven then pleads with Sora to let him stay.

Aaaaannnnd? .....

The Unversed are manifestations of anger and hate pretty much.

Yeah, but without reason, they'll just not show.
They need an outlet. Vanitas is that outlet.
 

Sephiroth0812

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And boom goes the dynamite. Knowing Nomoura, he will come up with some lame excuse as to how Vanitas can return. (clone anybody?) And then the unversed come back! But couldn't unversed technically exist if somebody got UBER pissed about something? The Unversed are manifestations of anger and hate pretty much.

Possible, since Vanitas's mind/consciousness apparently somehow survived.
Nope, Unversed are several emotions, not just anger and hate, floods for example are formed from irritation.
As far as we know, the power to manifest Unversed comes from having a heart of pure darkness, which we so far know doesn't occur naturally.

Welcome to the conversation. I know this and I assume you know this too. Which is why I specifically didn't take the long way to get to my point.



You'll soon be arriving at my point about 2 posts too late.



You're almost there. Keep going....



Aaaaannnnd? .....

Maybe it's too late at evening for me but I don't get what you're implying.
If you knew all this then why that wrong claim about Ven's and Sora's heart connection being broken?
Sora's and Ven's connection was always there and still is, so there's no need for Sora to do anything with his own darkness towards Ven.
 

Nayru's Love

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As far as we know, the power to manifest Unversed comes from having a heart of pure darkness, which we so far know doesn't occur naturally.

I don't think Unversed existed for that reason; rather, I think it was the heart split itself that granted their existence. In a sense, Vanitas is a heart that came from nothing; he's a paradoxical existence.
 

Sephiroth0812

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In a sense, Vanitas is a heart that came from nothing; he's a paradoxical existence.

Y'know, that sentence made me remember a part of the Ansem Report 8 from the original Kingdom Hearts:

This device is the culmination of all my research thus far. The machine's test run successfully created a Heartless. This may be a step toward creating a heart from nothing.

Coincidence? lol.
 

Sephiroth0812

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And wasn't coded's theme about how a heart could be made from data?

Almost forgot about that, but true. Nomura hinted about the theme "can a heart be born in an existence made of data?"

Data Sora can newly obtain a legitimate Keyblade during his adventure, but are there changes to the real Keyblade when that happens?

Nomura: No, it’s a data version the entire time. However like with the first Keyblade, it wasn’t created by someone else. It comes from the heart’s connections with the data, hinting towards the story theme, “Can a heart be born in an existence made of data?”
 

Nayru's Love

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I don't feel that Vanitas can be compared to either artificial hearts or data hearts, though; he's virtually on a different level.
 

Genocide

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I don't feel that Vanitas can be compared to either artificial hearts or data hearts, though; he's virtually on a different level.

Vanitas is a real heart. Whose comparing him to a fake one?

Maybe it's too late at evening for me but I don't get what you're implying.
If you knew all this then why that wrong claim about Ven's and Sora's heart connection being broken?
Sora's and Ven's connection was always there and still is, so there's no need for Sora to do anything with his own darkness towards Ven.

Ven's heart went to sleep because Ven literally destroyed half of it. If the connection to Sora wasn't broken, it was changed by destroying Vanitas. (But it wasn't) Because Sora's heart filled the gap where Vanitas' heart went, Vanitas looked like Sora. That's how Ven was able to even BE in BBS.

Remember the beginning? There wasn't a connection originally and when Sora connected to Ven, Ven got up. And then Ven destroyed Vanitas. Which sent him all comatose. Vanitas was never in Ventus' heat, Sora was. And if the connection never broke, then Ven wouldn't have gone comatose when he killed himself. (see what I did there?) Instead of reconnecting [Oh, I get it now] his heat to Sora's, he just safey went inside him.

When Sora returns Ven's heart, Ven will still be comatose. The only way to reawaken Ven is to reconnect the way they did before or complete Ven's heart. With Vanitas gone, the darkness has to come from somewhere and Sora would be the only one able to do it right there.
 

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To be simply blunt, yes. Yes he is.
Even though Vanitas was born from Ven, Vanitas still holds his own (complete?) heart. And Ven has has one two. So the two hearts, made from the same person, somehow merged (bbs x-blade)
 

JustSnilloc

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isnt he just a part of one?

Well, he's part of a heart that over time became it's own (whole heart)

Someone we're forgetting is Eraqus... Sure he hid his heart inside Terra, but where did his body and soul go? Eraqus and MX's body/soul suffered the same fate (presumably anyways) (assuming Van didn't take MX's body) Anyways Eraqus in the RoS is entirely plausible, at least part of him being there anyway

As far as who the Red Eyed Unknown is, Van seems plausible for reasons already stated, ASoD was in a state similar to the REU, so Van could possibly be as well, idk... Right now it just seems like there are too many unknowns to be able to say anything for sure, kind of like Riku #2 in the Jump Festa trailer
 

Sephiroth0812

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Vanitas is a real heart. Whose comparing him to a fake one?

Ven's heart went to sleep because Ven literally destroyed half of it. If the connection to Sora wasn't broken, it was changed by destroying Vanitas. (But it wasn't) Because Sora's heart filled the gap where Vanitas' heart went, Vanitas looked like Sora. That's how Ven was able to even BE in BBS.

Remember the beginning? There wasn't a connection originally and when Sora connected to Ven, Ven got up. And then Ven destroyed Vanitas. Which sent him all comatose. Vanitas was never in Ventus' heat, Sora was. And if the connection never broke, then Ven wouldn't have gone comatose when he killed himself. (see what I did there?) Instead of reconnecting [Oh, I get it now] his heat to Sora's, he just safey went inside him.

When Sora returns Ven's heart, Ven will still be comatose. The only way to reawaken Ven is to reconnect the way they did before or complete Ven's heart. With Vanitas gone, the darkness has to come from somewhere and Sora would be the only one able to do it right there.

As far as I saw no one doubted that.
The topic was "new hearts being born", it wasn't which "type" of heart is "better".

Ven's heart went to sleep because he destroyed his whole heart by destroying the X-blade, which was exactly what Vanitas warned him about beforehand. Destroy the X-blade and your heart will vanish because it is now part of the weapon as well after the forced fusion.
The only reason Ven's heart (and Vanitas's, for that matter) wasn't completely destroyed was because the X-blade was incomplete to begin with.

The connection to Sora was neither changed nor broken because it wasn't even affected. The injuries inflicted on the heart were just too much for the connection alone to sustain it anymore.

Of course Vanitas was in Ventus's heart, the whole final battle between them when we had the split Awakening platform. Vanitas tried to enslave Ven and fuse their hearts together into one, which Ven resisted, making the X-blade incomplete on the inner key, which was also confirmed by Vanitas ("Our union was not finished.").
Ven would have gone comatose nonetheless because the damage to his heart caused by the X-blade's destruction was several magnitudes stronger than Vanitas being cut out of him four years earlier.

That can't work because if there wasn't a connection anymore Sora would not have been able to feel Ven's pain and sadness that intensely and reach out to him, nor would Ven's wounded heart have found its way into Sora's heart.

Only when Sora would return Ven's heart without healing it beforehand such a thing would happen, which I highly doubt would be done by Sora anyways.
And healing his heart doesn't have to mean using darkness. As far as we know darkness can't even heal.

isnt he just a part of one?

He started as a part, or rather, at the core of his heart lies a shard of Ven's heart, but he nonetheless developed into a full heart of pure darkness over the years, just like Ven's developed under Aqua's, Terra's and Master Eraqus's care.
It was said by MX in his reports that these two hearts need to be trained and made stronger and Nomura also spoke in an interview about Ven's heart not fully formed when he came first to Eraqus, yet as we see later when he develops Ven does form his heart.

Even though Vanitas was born from Ven, Vanitas still holds his own (complete?) heart. And Ven has has one two. So the two hearts, made from the same person, somehow merged (bbs x-blade)

Correct, there were two hearts made out of one original, almost like a (forced) cell division in biology.
These hearts at exact same strength intersecting (which happened) and then fusing together into one (which only partly happened since Ven's mind resisted) would bring about the X-blade.

Well, he's part of a heart that over time became it's own (whole heart)

Someone we're forgetting is Eraqus... Sure he hid his heart inside Terra, but where did his body and soul go? Eraqus and MX's body/soul suffered the same fate (presumably anyways) (assuming Van didn't take MX's body) Anyways Eraqus in the RoS is entirely plausible, at least part of him being there anyway

As far as who the Red Eyed Unknown is, Van seems plausible for reasons already stated, ASoD was in a state similar to the REU, so Van could possibly be as well, idk... Right now it just seems like there are too many unknowns to be able to say anything for sure, kind of like Riku #2 in the Jump Festa trailer

Exactly.

Eraqus? As far as we know his body and soul were destroyed by Master Xehanort when he was blasted in the back, only his heart survived by hiding inside Terra's heart like Kairi's did in Sora's in KH 1.
MX's body and soul weren't destroyed by an attack, they just "faded". The only thing Nomura had to say about the "fixed sentiment" that remained after MX stabbed himself, is that it is "not a heartless".
Of course that is possible. It's even probable I would say that Eraqus is somewhere in the RoS.

Vanitas being the Red-eyed unknown plausible or not stems from how much everyone individually sees the novels as reliable canon-source or not.
We have in fact only two unknowns: The golden eyed one running around waging a seeming psycho-war against Sora and Riku and the red-eyed thing.
 

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theres no way we can determine who red eyes is. yet.

all we have is a picture. and we know hes in the castle that never was, and got his hands on an org coat.

how could it be vanitas?
 

Sephiroth0812

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theres no way we can determine who red eyes is. yet.

all we have is a picture. and we know hes in the castle that never was, and got his hands on an org coat.

how could it be vanitas?

There is a certain part in the third BBS-novel that speaks about Vanitas's creation.

In there it is said that Vanitas's face before Sora connected with Ven was just pitch black with creepy red unversed-eyes.
Several people take that as a connection to the red-eyed unknown despite a) the red-eyed unknown having dream eater-eyes and b) the dubious canonical status of the novels.
 

SeaSalt

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There is a certain part in the third BBS-novel that speaks about Vanitas's creation.

In there it is said that Vanitas's face before Sora connected with Ven was just pitch black with creepy red unversed-eyes.
Several people take that as a connection to the red-eyed unknown despite a) the red-eyed unknown having dream eater-eyes and b) the dubious canonical status of the novels.

well is that canon?

and also, unversed eyes express emotions, while this unknown only has red circular eyes. do any unversed share the same eye?
 

Sephiroth0812

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well is that canon?

and also, unversed eyes express emotions, while this unknown only has red circular eyes. do any unversed share the same eye?

Like I said, the canon-status of the novels is dubious.
They are written by Tomoco Kanemaki, who is a member of Nomura's staff, the person responsible for creating Xion and I think was also the scenario writer for Days.
Nomura himself gave some background info for the novels so they do have more credibility like, the manga for example. Things in the novels conflicting with stuff from interviews and especially game-canon are automatically non-canon though.

That's why many people say to be cautious with the novels. Some of them are really good because they give deeper insight into the characters though.

Yes, the eyes of the unversed always show an emotion, and these red circular eyes the red-eyed unknown has are not only similar, but exactly the same as a dream eater nightmare.

Compare the eye of this dream eater with the eyes of the unknown and you'll see it:
Dragon%20Horse.png
 

SeaSalt

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Like I said, the canon-status of the novels is dubious.
They are written by Tomoco Kanemaki, who is a member of Nomura's staff, the person responsible for creating Xion and I think was also the scenario writer for Days.
Nomura himself gave some background info for the novels so they do have more credibility like, the manga for example. Things in the novels conflicting with stuff from interviews and especially game-canon are automatically non-canon though.

That's why many people say to be cautious with the novels. Some of them are really good because they give deeper insight into the characters though.

Yes, the eyes of the unversed always show an emotion, and these red circular eyes the red-eyed unknown has are not only similar, but exactly the same as a dream eater nightmare.

Compare the eye of this dream eater with the eyes of the unknown and you'll see it:

now that i see it, those eys are almost identical to the ones in the picture.
eyes.jpg

BUT that is not an unversed.

do you think the same standards could apply if this is a dream eater version of vanitas/sora?
 

Sephiroth0812

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now that i see it, those eys are almost identical to the ones in the picture.
eyes.jpg

BUT that is not an unversed.

do you think the same standards could apply if this is a dream eater version of vanitas/sora?

Yep yep, that's what I see as well.
Definitely not an Unversed-

A dream eater version could be possible, maybe that is the Nightmare version of Roxas in a black coat? The nightmare version of Xion?
We already see a blackened Ventus-armor with the nightmare symbol.
If I go by my own theory that this armor is a manifestation of Ven's pain and torment this red-eyed thing could be the manifestation of the torment of someone of the other suffering ones...or even the torment of all of them combined into one mega-nightmare.

Or that is the true form of the Mysterious Figure and the "Young Master Xehanort" is just its "standard disguise".
 
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