Roxas?

[Sephiroth0812]

I didn't forget this, but I didn't think it held any verifiable relevance.


How does one follow from the other? The fact that Ven's heart was injured would make it less likely to cope on its own, meaning it would naturally followed Sora's heart (which is essentially its life support), meaning it would have been released.

How so? In-universe that's also an explanation for the fact that Sora was able to view memories and visions of Kairi in KH 1 but not of Ven.
(Again, in-universe, not by the technical circumstances, just for those who may be urged to point out that Ven wasn't part of the mix when KH 1 was made. Which is true, but irrelevant for the situation here.)

We don't know how far Ven's heart was able to recuperate over the years, only that it wasn't enough to make his heart really functionable again.
Ven's heart would not follow Sora's heart because the darkness of Sora literally kicked it out, with its "sanctuary" filled with darkness it would have also been a very unhealthy place for it to remain. Since it was too weak to start "searching" for its body though it remained stuck inside Sora's body.

More evidence that it would have been released along with Sora's. However, there isn't any definitive evidence to indicate that Ven's connection with Sora is deeper than Kairi's. Ven's Heart is simply weaker and, presumably, more reliant upon Sora's, but his Heart and Kairi's would have been sharing the same space. As characters, Kairi has a much stronger relationship with Sora than Ven does, so I can't imagine her Heart would have any less affinity towards Sora's; indeed, that's the very reason her Heart fled to his.

Not if it was casted out like above mentioned.
No indication? Have you not played BBS and Re: Coded? Sora's and Ven's heart are literally glued together, the most close connection possible without outright fusion.
Kairi's heart hid inside Sora, but not inside Sora's heart, there is only Ven. Of course Kairi's and Sora's hearts are connected, just like Riku's is with Sora's, or Donald's and Goofy's for that matter.
"Relationships of that kind" don't mean squat in this case, in terms of closeness between hearts Ven is connected to Sora since birth, and it was Ven's heart that attracted Sora's to visit him in the prologue of BBS, not the other way around.

The main reason Kairi's heart fled to Sora's was because he was the strongest light around at the time of the Island's destruction, if it had been Riku who stood there and his light was enough she would also have taken refuge there instead of giving her heart over to the heartless.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my confusion was primarily with the concept of a non-corporeal physical temporary vessel that came out of nowhere. This has since been remedied through various explanations which make a good deal of sense, even if they're all essentially speculative.

Not out of nowhere, it was formed by the power of light.
Remember when Sora faded away after stabbing himself, or Eraqus, or MX after possessing Terra, heck, even Vanitas...they all faded away in glimmers of light when their current vessels faded away.
But of course it's speculative, we can't expect Nomura to take us by the hand for every little mystery in the whole series.
Not to mention his own words that he likes fans to interpret things for themselves and come to own conclusions.

And to be completely frank, lol, I think in a fantasy setting not everything needs to make sense. (Hint: Just look at Naminé, *ggg*).

Accepting the premise that Roxas has Ven's Heart: if it's so weak, how did it survive while Sora's Heart was plunged into darkness? Ven's Heart is directly connected with Sora's and depends upon it for its continued existence. Once Sora's light blinked out, from what I can understand, Ven's Heart would have collapsed.

I honestly don't see why this has to be still a premise, Roxas and Ven look like identical twin-brothers and it has been confirmed Roxas carried a heart, which one if not Ven's?
Don't forget Roxas and Sora were connected themselves by their link, Sora's heart falling to darkness also doesn't imply that the connection with Ven's heart would be severed, only that it couldn't remain in its "bed" (Sora's heart) so to say. It had to continue its slumber on the "floor" (Sora's body) so to say.
Like I said above, that would depend on how far Ven's heart could recuperate.
Also, do we really know if Sora's "sacrifice" to release Kairi's heart did not have any negative effects on Ven's heart?
It's entirely possible that Ven's heart was again on the verge/in the process of fading away (would be the third time then, poor guy), but that got prevented by Roxas developing his own self, keeping Ven's heart "there" by using it and Kairi restoring Sora's heart pretty fast.

Except, Sora wasn't anything like Ansem SoD. Ansem SoD sustained his human form as a Heartless by way of his immense darkness. Sora didn't have enough darkness to create anything more than a mere Shadow. I can probably accept that Kairi's immense "light" could have born a new Body for him, but I don't think it was Sora's powers that gave him form. And, FYI, an existence of only the heart = a Heartless.


I already addressed this, but it was because he was so consumed by darkness (and had such a mastery of it) that he was able to maintain a human form. Stronger light gives way to a weaker Heartless. Therefore, there can't really be any relation between Ansem SoD's existence and Sora's. They're fundamentally at opposition.

You don't fully get my point, the point is that both Ansem SoD and Sora existed as a heartless with their senses of self still intact and functioning, Sora's sense of self didn't got transferred to "Roxas", which enabled/forced him to develop on his own into something different.
I never implied it were Sora's powers that gave him this new form, it were Kairi's.
Ansem SoD was also only a heartless which was bigger than Sora's because of his immense darkness. Ansem SoD (as brown cloak guy) hadn't retained a human form, he needed Riku's body to form a true human form again.
Kairi circumvented that with her powers giving Sora human form without him needing to possess anyone.

It has already been confirmed though that Sora and Xehanort are very similar as heartless because they retained their sense of self.

Heartless are just darkness that has formed from a Heart. Darkness itself has physical elements to it, but Heartless do not have a true Body (or Soul; they function purely on the nature of darkness, which is to spread and consume). Ansem SoD is the exception, but it's possible Master Xehanort's control of darkness was lent to him, essentially allowing him to manipulate his own darkness to the extent that he was essentially conscious. Unversed were physical manifestations of Vanitas's negativity. I don't really understand what element they stem from, but I think it's suggested that they're crafted from darkness given the imagery associated with them.

Light has also physical elements to it...as seen with Kairi's restoration of Sora. However, in the terms of the KH-mythology it is still not a full being, as in KH 1 Final Mix Xemnas calls Sora out on that he's "not complete", which is true since his body and soul are at present inhabited by Roxas.

I'll agree on this point. Roxas is, after all, Sora, so I can see them sharing a Soul remotely between the two of them regardless of its physical and temporal location, as has already been discussed.

I'm sorry but I can't hear this oversimplification without getting a twitch in my head, Roxas is not Sora, he's a hybrid of Ven and Sora, something new.
He can't be compared to Axel/Lea or Ienzo/Zexion.

The soul has also been explored the least up to now, it's also pretty possible that a soul can be split like so often shown in fantasy settings.
The only requirement is that a substantial part has to remain with the body, as according to Ansem the Wise when the soul leaves the body we get "death".

 

[JustSnilloc]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my confusion was primarily with the concept of a non-corporeal physical temporary vessel that came out of nowhere. This has since been remedied through various explanations which make a good deal of sense, even if they're all essentially speculative.

It's more of a projected physical shell... The same way heartless have a "Body", Sora had one as well... Before it was purified by Kairi it was a shadow heartless, after being purified it became our keyblade wielding hero (minus the body and soul)

 

[strugglechamp]

oh boy another one of those questions xD you'll save yourself a headache if you just accept its a plot hole.
sora was a "walking heart" cause the whole concept of nobodies wasnt there yet, thats my opinion anyway.


i thought he couldnt wake cause of his memories being contained in roxas o,0 due to the xion mess.
i like that idea it being his heartless body with a human look xD

Yeah I just gonna do that cuz honestly after reading all these posts, I do have a headache.

 

[alexis.anagram]

How so?

Because, as I explained, Ven's Heart is not strong enough to support itself, which is why it inhabits Sora's, which is why it would follow Sora's. Sora's Heart is sustaining Ven's Heart, not Sora's Body.

In-universe that's also an explanation for the fact that Sora was able to view memories and visions of Kairi in KH 1 but not of Ven.

What is an explanation for that? That Ven's Heart didn't leave Sora's Body? Ven's Heart is asleep; Kairi's wasn't. Sora was affected by Kairi's Heart because it was conscious.

We don't know how far Ven's heart was able to recuperate over the years, only that it wasn't enough to make his heart really functionable again.
Ven's heart would not follow Sora's heart because the darkness of Sora literally kicked it out, with its "sanctuary" filled with darkness it would have also been a very unhealthy place for it to remain. Since it was too weak to start "searching" for its body though it remained stuck inside Sora's body.

This doesn't make a great deal of sense. First of all, Sora's Heart did not instantly succumb to the darkness once it was released; assuming Ven's Heart was kicked out by Sora's darkness, it would have already left his Body. I don't think that's necessarily what happened, however. It would make sense that if Ven's Heart is intrinsically tied to Sora's, it would have fallen to darkness along with his; when Sora's Heart was revived by Kairi, Ven's Heart would have been revived as well. This could explain why Namine has the appearance she does (blonde hair and blue eyes) and would offer an alternative rationale as to why Roxas has the same qualities; Ven's Heart actually contributed directly to the creation of both Namine and Roxas, however, because his Body is somewhere else and is still inhabited by his Soul (presumably), he didn't create a proper Heartless and Nobody of his own.

No indication? Have you not played BBS and Re: Coded? Sora's and Ven's heart are literally glued together, the most close connection possible without outright fusion.

Disregarding the dubiousness of using physical analogies to describe a metaphysical process: I know this. This is central to my argument. Sora's and Ven's Hearts were bound together too strongly for one of them to suddenly split from the other. In fact, I'll even recant my previous assertion and accept your premise that Ven's Heart had a stronger connection to Sora's than Kairi's, since that would explain why, while Kairi's Heart returned to her Body, Ven's Heart remained connected to Sora's when they were all released. Also, please refrain from behaving as though your stance on this matter is any less speculative than mine.

Kairi's heart hid inside Sora, but not inside Sora's heart, there is only Ven.

Au contraire. From the Journal:

When their island vanished, Kairi lost her heart. It turned out that it was hidden within Sora's.

Sora's. As in possessive. As in Sora's Heart.

"Relationships of that kind" don't mean squat in this case, in terms of closeness between hearts Ven is connected to Sora since birth, and it was Ven's heart that attracted Sora's to visit him in the prologue of BBS, not the other way around.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. First of all, I didn't mean to imply that Sora and Kairi have a romantic relationship, just a stronger one than the relationship between Ven and Sora (i.e. Sora actually knows who Kairi is and has met her in person and grew up with her for about half his life). Secondly, "terms of closeness between Hearts" is a vague and incalculable statement; the connection of Hearts is definitively metaphysical, there is no way to determine who has the closer connection. I don't know how the last point you made has any bearing on the matter. Ven's Heart may have attracted Sora's or Sora's may have sought out Ven's because it was injured; neither are indicative of a particularly strong relationship, just a chance occurrence: Ven happened to be on Destiny Islands at the time Sora was being born. That's the primary reason their Hearts crossed paths.

The main reason Kairi's heart fled to Sora's was because he was the strongest light around at the time of the Island's destruction, if it had been Riku who stood there and his light was enough she would also have taken refuge there instead of giving her heart over to the heartless.

Kairi's Heart couldn't succumb to darkness because there's no darkness within it. Actually, it's unlikely that distance has any bearing on where a vulnerable Heart goes. As the games constantly reminds us, where one person is with relation to another doesn't affect the strength of their connection. Ven's Heart sought Sora's out despite them being in completely different Worlds. Kairi's likely would have done the same as her connection with Sora is greater than her connection with Riku.

Not out of nowhere, it was formed by the power of light.
Remember when Sora faded away after stabbing himself, or Eraqus, or MX after possessing Terra, heck, even Vanitas...they all faded away in glimmers of light when their current vessels faded away.

I already conceded that this is a possible scenario.

But of course it's speculative, we can't expect Nomura to take us by the hand for every little mystery in the whole series.
Not to mention his own words that he likes fans to interpret things for themselves and come to own conclusions.

And to be completely frank, lol, I think in a fantasy setting not everything needs to make sense. (Hint: Just look at Naminé, *ggg*).

Agreed, agreed and agreed. However, I think there are answers in store for us with regards to Namine.

I honestly don't see why this has to be still a premise, Roxas and Ven look like identical twin-brothers and it has been confirmed Roxas carried a heart, which one if not Ven's?

When was it confirmed that Roxas carried a Heart? I know it's a popular theory but I wasn't aware that it had been stated outright.

Don't forget Roxas and Sora were connected themselves by their link, Sora's heart falling to darkness also doesn't imply that the connection with Ven's heart would be severed, only that it couldn't remain in its "bed" (Sora's heart) so to say. It had to continue its slumber on the "floor" (Sora's body) so to say.

No, that doesn't make sense. Ven's Heart is being sustained by Sora's light; once his light went out, Ven's Heart would have collapsed. Sora's darkness is nowhere near powerful enough to support another Heart (hence why he offered his light to Ventus in the beginning of BBS; that is their existing connection).

Like I said above, that would depend on how far Ven's heart could recuperate.
Also, do we really know if Sora's "sacrifice" to release Kairi's heart did not have any negative effects on Ven's heart?
It's entirely possible that Ven's heart was again on the verge/in the process of fading away (would be the third time then, poor guy), but that got prevented by Roxas developing his own self, keeping Ven's heart "there" by using it and Kairi restoring Sora's heart pretty fast.

That doesn't make sense, either. Ven's Heart being sustained by Roxas's "Body" would be no different than Ven's Heart being sustained by Ven's Body. Ven's Heart needs Sora's Heart in order to continue existing. This has been established pretty concretely.

You don't fully get my point, the point is that both Ansem SoD and Sora existed as a heartless with their senses of self still intact and functioning, Sora's sense of self didn't got transferred to "Roxas", which enabled/forced him to develop on his own into something different.

That's not exactly true. What happened is that Roxas had no memories of his time as Sora, so he was forced to develop from scratch. If he had had Sora's memories, every indication (based on the other Nobodies) is that he would have maintained the demeanor and behavior of Sora as well.

I never implied it were Sora's powers that gave him this new form, it were Kairi's.

Agreed.

Ansem SoD was also only a heartless which was bigger than Sora's because of his immense darkness. Ansem SoD (as brown cloak guy) hadn't retained a human form, he needed Riku's body to form a true human form again

Kairi circumvented that with her powers giving Sora human form without him needing to possess anyone.

It has already been confirmed though that Sora and Xehanort are very similar as heartless because they retained their sense of self.

I think you're partially right on this, but some of it is splitting hairs. Xehanort's Heartless was not just bigger, but more powerful than Sora's. They both retained their sense of self and memories, but we don't know why, so we can't speculate on that a great deal. None of this correlates with the possession factor; Sora was not in the same form as Ansem SoD was when he was born as a Heartless, and there's no precedence within the series of Shadows possessing humans in order to gain human form. It can't be said that it isn't possible, but it can't be said that it is. Furthermore, the process Sora went through to regain a Body and the process Ansem SoD went through to regain a Body were very different and it can't be said definitively that one would satisfy the other. They're both exceptional cases, but that doesn't mean they're equivalent cases. Sort of like how Namine and Roxas are both exceptional cases of Nobodies, but may not be equivalent.

Light has also physical elements to it...as seen with Kairi's restoration of Sora.

This is justification by way of your argument. Using your premise as proof of your premise is too circular. That being said, I don't disagree.

However, in the terms of the KH-mythology it is still not a full being, as in KH 1 Final Mix Xemnas calls Sora out on that he's "not complete", which is true since his body and soul are at present inhabited by Roxas.

Perhaps. Alternatively, he may be calling Sora incomplete because Roxas is his Nobody and is therefore a part of him without necessarily making reference to the aspects of Sora's existence and how they have been distributed.

I'm sorry but I can't hear this oversimplification without getting a twitch in my head, Roxas is not Sora, he's a hybrid of Ven and Sora, something new.
He can't be compared to Axel/Lea or Ienzo/Zexion.

I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware this was confirmed. Perhaps when it is I'll debate it further.

The soul has also been explored the least up to now, it's also pretty possible that a soul can be split like so often shown in fantasy settings.
The only requirement is that a substantial part has to remain with the body, as according to Ansem the Wise when the soul leaves the body we get "death".

That's a good deal of inference on your part, but I can't properly contradict it. It's possible that the Soul can be split. I don't like the idea myself, but it isn't up to me.

 

[Goldpanner]

I feel as though Terra's Soul will be an important factor in future installments, however, so I'm treating it as an equivalent piece to the Body and Heart.

Actually, the Japanese words (and concepts) used to describe the 'battery' soul (魂) and the 'will' in Lingering Will (思念) are different, and I don't think Nomura has ever drawn a link between those concepts himself, it's just fan conjecture. Here's a transcription of the original interview with Nomura about the souls if you want to check. How about you google tamashii and see what sort of concepts and translations come up? Nomura himself said Disney didn't really understand and said it must be an 'Eastern way of thinking'.

Lastly, the explanations about Sora's body aren't speculative, I found Kairi's character report and it did say in it that 'Kairi's thoughts and memories brought Sora back to normal'. So yep, unless the games themselves contradict that I'd say it's done and dusted for now. Besides, it's probably not worth nit-picking about. The magic of love does a lot in Disney, and it seems like a cute parallel.

 

[alexis.anagram]

Actually, the Japanese words (and concepts) used to describe the 'battery' soul (魂) and the 'will' in Lingering Will (思念) are different, and I don't think Nomura has ever drawn a link between those concepts himself, it's just fan conjecture.

I never implied that my thoughts on that matter were anything less than speculation. I fully admit that I have a very limited concept of the Japanese language, however, from what I understand, as with any language, there are a great many ways to describe the same concept (made even greater by the vast assortment of characters within the written language). It's possible that simply because the Lingering Will's name does not correlate with the written use of the word Soul does not mean there is no connection between the two. Will and Soul are already different words within English. That doesn't mean they aren't equivalent in certain ways within the context of the game; of course, it doesn't mean they are, either.

Here's a transcription of the original interview with Nomura about the souls if you want to check. How about you google tamashii and see what sort of concepts and translations come up? Nomura himself said Disney didn't really understand and said it must be an 'Eastern way of thinking'.

I don't see how any of this is relevant. The concepts of the Body, Heart and Soul in Kingdom Hearts are clearly adapted to fit the mythology of the games. They may be informed by certain Eastern perspectives because Nomura is Japanese; however, it is their function within the series itself which is being discussed.

Lastly, the explanations about Sora's body aren't speculative, I found Kairi's character report and it did say in it that 'Kairi's thoughts and memories brought Sora back to normal'.

The problem is that this doesn't explain how and from what Sora's physical Body was formed when she brought him back. "Thoughts" and "memories" are concepts, not tangible elements; this is why it seems practical to me that Kairi's light formed a new vessel, if he did indeed lose his original Body.

So yep, unless the games themselves contradict that I'd say it's done and dusted for now. Besides, it's probably not worth nit-picking about.

You're free not to involve yourself in the discussion if you feel it isn't worthwhile, you know. No one is forcing you to give your input, although it's certainly appreciated all the same (I'm particularly grateful for the use of actual citations).

The magic of love does a lot in Disney, and it seems like a cute parallel.

And if that's enough for you, that's your prerogative. I don't find it particularly inspired, however, and I would prefer a more encompassing resolution to the question.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Because, as I explained, Ven's Heart is not strong enough to support itself, which is why it inhabits Sora's, which is why it would follow Sora's. Sora's Heart is sustaining Ven's Heart, not Sora's Body.

You have no proof for that either, Ven's heart was not strong enough to keep its own body awake anymore and needed to latch onto another when the grave wounds from destroying the x-blade were just inflicted. If Sora had denied Ven's request to stay it would have went to sleep as well, just not in a more comfortable environment like Sora's heart.
Ven's heart cannot follow Sora's heart because it's A) inactive (which also doubles why it can't be released) and B) Sora's heart got swallowed by darkness, which is the least thing Ven's heart can endure now.
During that short time, Ven's heart had to sustain itself for a short while, either by clinging to Sora's soul (lifeforce) inside Sora's body or it was already recuperated sufficiently enough to at least keep itself from fading away.

What is an explanation for that? That Ven's Heart didn't leave Sora's Body? Ven's Heart is asleep; Kairi's wasn't. Sora was affected by Kairi's Heart because it was conscious.

Yes, a heart thats not only asleep but also not fully functionable can't be released.

This doesn't make a great deal of sense. First of all, Sora's Heart did not instantly succumb to the darkness once it was released; assuming Ven's Heart was kicked out by Sora's darkness, it would have already left his Body. I don't think that's necessarily what happened, however. It would make sense that if Ven's Heart is intrinsically tied to Sora's, it would have fallen to darkness along with his; when Sora's Heart was revived by Kairi, Ven's Heart would have been revived as well. This could explain why Namine has the appearance she does (blonde hair and blue eyes) and would offer an alternative rationale as to why Roxas has the same qualities; Ven's Heart actually contributed directly to the creation of both Namine and Roxas, however, because his Body is somewhere else and is still inhabited by his Soul (presumably), he didn't create a proper Heartless and Nobody of his own.

Sora's heart was flooded with darkness instantly, what do you think the heart-unlocker does? It exposes one to his/her darkness by unlocking the heart in question.
When that happened, Sora's heart succumbed to darkness, Ven's was kicked out as well as Kairi's, but unlike Kairi's, it remained in Sora's body because it's inactive and not functioning properly.
Kairi's heart went and actively searched for its body, Ven's couldn't do that and neither stay with Sora's because it didn't provide a safe shelter anymore.
Both Naminé and Roxas were born when Sora stabbed himself, not when Kairi restored him.
That's actually another reason why Ven's heart must be in Sora's body. Both Naminé and Roxas were born using Sora's body and soul, the only difference being the heart from which they were born: Roxas (Sora's heart), Naminé (Kairi's heart). These were the hearts released and giving birth to these two "beings". The dominant heart in a body dictates the appearance and since the only heart left in the body was Ven's, both Roxas and Naminé gained some traits of Ven.
In Naminés case it's only the golden hair, but since Roxas was not only born through Sora's body but also kept it to inhabit it he turned out to be Ven's "twin" in looks.
So you're right on the notion that Ven's heart contributed, but not in the way you think and not actively, only passively.

On a side note, if Ven's heart could have been revived that easily it would have made itself known somehow, not to mention Roxas would lose his ability to wield a keyblade if he hasn't Ven's heart. You need a heart to wield one.

If a body is inhabited by a soul or not as nothing to do with the possibility to form a heartless (you need to succumb to darkness to do that) or a nobody (which is even rarer, as not all people who become a heartless also form a nobody).
In Ven's case that would be impossible in any case since his heart is pure light.

Disregarding the dubiousness of using physical analogies to describe a metaphysical process: I know this. This is central to my argument. Sora's and Ven's Hearts were bound together too strongly for one of them to suddenly split from the other. In fact, I'll even recant my previous assertion and accept your premise that Ven's Heart had a stronger connection to Sora's than Kairi's, since that would explain why, while Kairi's Heart returned to her Body, Ven's Heart remained connected to Sora's when they were all released. Also, please refrain from behaving as though your stance on this matter is any less speculative than mine.

I honestly get the vibe we're talking about two entire different things.
I am speaking of Ven's and Sora's heart connection, that connection was there since four years before BBS and both of them were totally fine without having their hearts to be physically together.
Also, when the second, worse injury came and the connection wasn't sufficient to hold Ven's heart anymore Ven's heart went on to hide inside Sora's, their hearts didn't fuse together into one like with Xehanort and Terra.

Ven's heart always remained connected to Sora's, it doesn't mean it had to physically stay with it, because as I explained earlier, Ven's heart was incapable of being released and needs to be inside Sora's body in order to give Roxas Ven's looks.
It has nothing to do with being speculative as it only really makes sense this way. Ven's heart being released is what doesn't make sense, there's no actual incident/reason in the story that would make this necessary, but it would unneccessarily overcomplicate Roxas's looks and the explanations why he can feel and wield a keyblade.

Au contraire. From the Journal:
Sora's. As in possessive. As in Sora's Heart.

Touché, if that's what stands in the journal of KH 1 I may remember the German translation wrong or I just forgot. ;P
meh...

I don't really understand what you're saying here. First of all, I didn't mean to imply that Sora and Kairi have a romantic relationship, just a stronger one than the relationship between Ven and Sora (i.e. Sora actually knows who Kairi is and has met her in person and grew up with her for about half his life). Secondly, "terms of closeness between Hearts" is a vague and incalculable statement; the connection of Hearts is definitively metaphysical, there is no way to determine who has the closer connection. I don't know how the last point you made has any bearing on the matter. Ven's Heart may have attracted Sora's or Sora's may have sought out Ven's because it was injured; neither are indicative of a particularly strong relationship, just a chance occurrence: Ven happened to be on Destiny Islands at the time Sora was being born. That's the primary reason their Hearts crossed paths.

I guess that would mean how you define "relationship".
Data-Naminé spoke of Sora and Ven having a very special and deep connection with each other...heck, Aqua even remarked how much they look alike. They're practically heartmates/-brothers.
The primary reason that their hearts crossed paths is that Sora's heart actually bothered to stray from its path for Ven's. It was not obliged to help, so something must have awakened Sora's interest.

Kairi's Heart couldn't succumb to darkness because there's no darkness within it. Actually, it's unlikely that distance has any bearing on where a vulnerable Heart goes. As the games constantly reminds us, where one person is with relation to another doesn't affect the strength of their connection. Ven's Heart sought Sora's out despite them being in completely different Worlds. Kairi's likely would have done the same as her connection with Sora is greater than her connection with Riku.

That's not what I meant, the heartless would have taken her heart just like Maleficent did with Aurora's in BBS and then either Ansem SoD or Maleficent would have had Kairi's heart captive. To prevent that Kairi's heart sought out the nearest shelter she could find, which happened to be Sora's heart.
With Ven it was a bit different though, we have to look at things in order:
First after Ven's heart was nearly destroyed it was still there, but struggling not to disappear, Yen Sid couldn't sense it but it was there, evidenced by the fact that while being carried on Aqua's back Ven could still muster some last strength to summon his keyblade (reminiscent to the prologue where it also indicated his heart "lives") to open a way to Land of Departure.
After Aqua left Ven in the chamber of waking, Sora felt Ven's pain and sadness through their strong connection and called out to him on Riku's suggestion. This allowed Ven's heart to follow Sora's voice through their connection right into Sora's heart. Since he knew he couldn't struggle on much longer he asked Sora to give him a place to rest.

I already conceded that this is a possible scenario.


Agreed, agreed and agreed. However, I think there are answers in store for us with regards to Namine.

I actually hope for that...and for the other incomplete existences as well.
^___^

When was it confirmed that Roxas carried a Heart? I know it's a popular theory but I wasn't aware that it had been stated outright.

Yep, in one of the Ultimanias.
It's also pretty much deduceable from the games itself by connecting some dots together.

No, that doesn't make sense. Ven's Heart is being sustained by Sora's light; once his light went out, Ven's Heart would have collapsed. Sora's darkness is nowhere near powerful enough to support another Heart (hence why he offered his light to Ventus in the beginning of BBS; that is their existing connection).

Ven's heart isn't sustained constantly by Sora's heart, it rests inside it to bear the pain better and slowly recuperate.
What Sora did in the BBS-Prologue was to let their hearts touch, which created the connection and kept Ven's heart from breaking totally. Sora's darkness would actually harm Ven's heart that's why it couldn't "stay" with it.
I don't know why you're so adamant on saying that Ven's heart must stay with Sora's when it doesn't. Once the danger of completely fading away is no more (which 4-year old Sora did in the end of BBS) the heart can settle down and start to slowly heal.
Ven's first injury was already grave, but after Sora prevented it from fading it started to slowly heal. During the 4 years between that incidcent and the start of BBS Ven's heart regenerated and was "formed" as Nomura put it.
Now, of course the second injury was way worse and bigger, but the actual time-frame (10 years) was also bigger, so I would think it's not so farfetched to assume that Ven's heart was capable at least to accomplish the feat to hang on for a short time without hiding inside Sora's heart directly.

That doesn't make sense, either. Ven's Heart being sustained by Roxas's "Body" would be no different than Ven's Heart being sustained by Ven's Body. Ven's Heart needs Sora's Heart in order to continue existing. This has been established pretty concretely.

Like said, it had only to hang on for a short time. If Kairi didn't restore Sora fast enough Ven's heart would probably have been lost and Roxas would have been a normal nobody.

That's not exactly true. What happened is that Roxas had no memories of his time as Sora, so he was forced to develop from scratch. If he had had Sora's memories, every indication (based on the other Nobodies) is that he would have maintained the demeanor and behavior of Sora as well.

Yeah, and memories form your sense of self. Ergo complete new memories from scratch => new "being/person/whatever".
If he had Sora's memories he would also have Sora's sense of self, then his independent identity would never have formed. This is what would have happened if Sora stayed a heartless, as he admitted to Kairi that he was starting to forget things. So the "transfer" was initiated but not a single memory ever reached Roxas (or rather, the blank slate that later developed into Roxas) since Kairi intervened "in time".
But the own sense of self did form and that means more than you are apparently willing to give credit for.
In Days Naminé was really astounded on how fiercely both Xion and Roxas were fighting to be their own people.

Agreed.

Lol, at least we're not fully on different trains. *ggg*

I think you're partially right on this, but some of it is splitting hairs. Xehanort's Heartless was not just bigger, but more powerful than Sora's. They both retained their sense of self and memories, but we don't know why, so we can't speculate on that a great deal. None of this correlates with the possession factor; Sora was not in the same form as Ansem SoD was when he was born as a Heartless, and there's no precedence within the series of Shadows possessing humans in order to gain human form. It can't be said that it isn't possible, but it can't be said that it is. Furthermore, the process Sora went through to regain a Body and the process Ansem SoD went through to regain a Body were very different and it can't be said definitively that one would satisfy the other. They're both exceptional cases, but that doesn't mean they're equivalent cases. Sort of like how Namine and Roxas are both exceptional cases of Nobodies, but may not be equivalent.

Ansem is more powerful than Sora's heartless because his darkness is bigger, fair game.
It does correlate with the possession factor because it shows that Ansem SoD had not a new vessel like Sora gained from Kairi, in order to get his human appearance back he needed to possess a real body. Sora didn't because of Kairi's help.
We also had no other shadows who regained their sense of self.

This is justification by way of your argument. Using your premise as proof of your premise is too circular. That being said, I don't disagree.

I knew I should better have used Eraqus as an example. ;P
Yup, Light and Darkness are very similar after all.

Perhaps. Alternatively, he may be calling Sora incomplete because Roxas is his Nobody and is therefore a part of him without necessarily making reference to the aspects of Sora's existence and how they have been distributed.

He calls Sora incomplete because his real body and soul are missing, yes, but not in direct reference to Roxas as a person.
Normal nobodies aren't "parts" of someone but the continuation of someone, which in Sora's case doesn't fit since he continued as himself.

I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware this was confirmed. Perhaps when it is I'll debate it further.


That's a good deal of inference on your part, but I can't properly contradict it. It's possible that the Soul can be split. I don't like the idea myself, but it isn't up to me.

It doesn't need to be confirmed outright by Nomura, it can be seen in-game because Sora is running around, chatting and stuff while Roxas does the same and can fully think and act for himself.
Not to mention that Roxas started out blank with all "parts" of a full being: Body & Soul (Sora) and Heart (Ven). His mind and memories are his own, belonging neither to Sora nor Ven.
He was also called the "Sora + Ven" nobody in an interview and in retrospect the main problem that he couldn't be allowed to exist in the physical world in this configuration beside the memory-mess Naminé and Xion created was because the important parts for that existence were not his own.

---

It was a total shot in the blue anyways in order to give a possible explanation to how Sora's new vessel could be supplied with life force, lol.

<<<<<

This is long but really fun, lol.
Good debate.
Don't get the wrong vibe though, I am in no way intending on sounding harsh or something, I'm just prone to bolster my explanations with connecting game events through the entire series and interview-stuff.

Actually, the Japanese words (and concepts) used to describe the 'battery' soul (魂) and the 'will' in Lingering Will (思念) are different, and I don't think Nomura has ever drawn a link between those concepts himself, it's just fan conjecture. Here's a transcription of the original interview with Nomura about the souls if you want to check. How about you google tamashii and see what sort of concepts and translations come up? Nomura himself said Disney didn't really understand and said it must be an 'Eastern way of thinking'.

Lastly, the explanations about Sora's body aren't speculative, I found Kairi's character report and it did say in it that 'Kairi's thoughts and memories brought Sora back to normal'. So yep, unless the games themselves contradict that I'd say it's done and dusted for now. Besides, it's probably not worth nit-picking about. The magic of love does a lot in Disney, and it seems like a cute parallel.

Hmm, I did actually expect that because the will sitting in the soul would make no sense, as hearts are shown to have a will as well or they couldn't struggle with each other or one trying to enslave the other.
Makes one wonder though how normal nobodies get their "will".

Our old "friend" Nomura would actually do pretty good going into detail about all that stuff a bit more, but I tend to believe that it is all still an unfinished puzzle to which he is still withholding some pieces.

What does "back to normal" actually mean? Sora re-gaining his human form? Or him actually gaining a new, second body (and soul)?
The second one I would think however would be really a bit too overpowered even for a Deus Ex Machina like Kairi's "Revival-hug".

Wouldn't that make Kairi a very(too) valuable asset?
Like this:

Riku knocks a heartless dizzy and grabs it by the antennae.
"Kairi, come over will ya? Give this poor Heartless a hug to restore it to human, 'kay?"
---

Still, as you said, its a fantasy setting and its Disney, maybe we nerds should really not be so nitpicking, lol.

 

[alexis.anagram]

You have no proof for that either, Ven's heart was not strong enough to keep its own body awake anymore and needed to latch onto another when the grave wounds from destroying the x-blade were just inflicted. If Sora had denied Ven's request to stay it would have went to sleep as well, just not in a more comfortable environment like Sora's heart.

I'll address this as one of your later points. I sort of agree, though I am adamant that it was not Sora's Body which was the necessary vessel but Sora's Heart.

Ven's heart cannot follow Sora's heart because it's A) inactive (which also doubles why it can't be released) and B) Sora's heart got swallowed by darkness, which is the least thing Ven's heart can endure now.
During that short time, Ven's heart had to sustain itself for a short while, either by clinging to Sora's soul (lifeforce) inside Sora's body or it was already recuperated sufficiently enough to at least keep itself from fading away.

The idea that the Heart can latch onto the Soul isn't very probable, as it abolishes much of the consistency between the elements of existence. The Soul is its own force; the Heart works as a separate force in tandem with the Soul and the Body is simply the physical vessel in which both exist. This explanation relies on too many loopholes and still doesn't make sense; your premise follows as:

A) Ven's Heart was so weak it couldn't be affected properly by the Keyblade of Hearts (how does that work?)

B) It was strong enough (despite being asleep) to redirect its energies to the latch onto the Soul.

Yes, a heart thats not only asleep but also not fully functionable can't be released.

Why? I can't imagine the Keyblade of Hearts discriminates based upon how much damage it may inflict on the Heart in question. It was created by Ansem SoD, after all. What you're essentially implying is that Ven's Heart was strong enough to rebel against the power of the Keyblade of Hearts but wouldn't have been strong enough to follow Sora's Heart...you're playing its strengths to your benefit and simultaneously claiming its too weak when that works in your favor. I'm saying that none of that is relevant, because it was fixed to Sora's Heart.

Sora's heart was flooded with darkness instantly, what do you think the heart-unlocker does? It exposes one to his/her darkness by unlocking the heart in question.

Then why would it not have done this to Ventus's Heart?

When that happened, Sora's heart succumbed to darkness, Ven's was kicked out as well as Kairi's, but unlike Kairi's, it remained in Sora's body because it's inactive and not functioning properly. Kairi's heart went and actively searched for its body, Ven's couldn't do that and neither stay with Sora's because it didn't provide a safe shelter anymore.

Alternatively, Ven's Heart may have remained with Sora's, Kairi's Heart (being conscious) separated from Sora's of its own will and went back to Kairi.

Both Naminé and Roxas were born when Sora stabbed himself, not when Kairi restored him.

Yes.

That's actually another reason why Ven's heart must be in Sora's body. Both Naminé and Roxas were born using Sora's body and soul, the only difference being the heart from which they were born: Roxas (Sora's heart), Naminé (Kairi's heart).

These were the hearts released and giving birth to these two "beings". The dominant heart in a body dictates the appearance and since the only heart left in the body was Ven's, both Roxas and Naminé gained some traits of Ven.

In Naminés case it's only the golden hair, but since Roxas was not only born through Sora's body but also kept it to inhabit it he turned out to be Ven's "twin" in looks.

This is where I think KH has stumped itself, if you're right: if Ven's Heart stayed within Sora's Body independently, that means Roxas is a complete person; he would have had Ven's memories and taken on Ven's personality, as well as his appearance. Meanwhile, Namine should look exactly like Ven because she has Sora's Body. Logically, the premise follows as such: Namine and Roxas have the same Body (Sora's): Ven's Heart stayed within Sora's Body, which is shared by Roxas and Namine: Roxas has Ven's Heart because Roxas has Sora's Body: Namine has Ven's Heart because Namine has Sora's Body; Roxas looks exactly like Ven: Namine should look exactly like Ven. Namine can't have a Sora's Body that's different from Sora's Body. That's a contradiction in terms. Therefore, either:

A) Namine does not have Sora's Body (in which case whose Body does she have and why would she be influenced to look like Ven at all?)

B) Ven's Heart indirectly influenced both Roxas and Namine when it fell to darkness along with Sora's Heart. Roxas looks like Ven because he was born from Sora's and Ven's Hearts, whereas Namine was born from Kairi's Heart, so she retained a different appearance.

Neither explanation is sufficient as an all-around resolution to this question. I don't know why Roxas would look like Ven and not Sora, but it doesn't make any sense at all for Namine to not have Ven's Heart given the scenario (Ven's Heart inside Sora's Body), and it doesn't make any sense for her not to look like Ven if she has Ven's Heart when Roxas looks exactly like Ven because he has Ven's Heart. If it's due to the influence of Kairi's Heart, then the fact that Roxas was born from Sora's Heart means that he should just look like Sora with blonde hair and blue eyes, the same way Namine essentially looks like Kairi with blonde hair and blue eyes (and longer hair, randomly). Nothing makes sense anymore.

On a side note, if Ven's heart could have been revived that easily it would have made itself known somehow, not to mention Roxas would lose his ability to wield a keyblade if he hasn't Ven's heart. You need a heart to wield one.

And you need two Hearts to wield two. Roxas didn't have two Hearts, but he could wield two Keybaldes. Even assuming Ven's Heart was inside Roxas, we know he was able to wield a second Keyblade because of his connection to Sora's Heart, which was not residing in Roxas's Body. Therefore, Ven's Heart didn't have to be inside Roxas's Body in order for him to access it (if he was connected to Sora's Heart, and Ven's Heart is inside Sora's Heart, he would have access to both).

If a body is inhabited by a soul or not as nothing to do with the possibility to form a heartless (you need to succumb to darkness to do that) or a nobody (which is even rarer, as not all people who become a heartless also form a nobody).

What I meant was that Ven's Body and Soul is separate from his Heart; even if his Heart were to fall into darkness, his Body and Soul would be unaffected because they aren't linked at the moment (hence, his Body is sleeping), therefore he wouldn't create a Nobody.

In Ven's case that would be impossible in any case since his heart is pure light.

That's one possibility, however, if Ven's Heart was restored with Vanitas's at the end of BBS, his Heart would no longer be pure light since Vanitas's darkness would have been restored as well.

I honestly get the vibe we're talking about two entire different things.
I am speaking of Ven's and Sora's heart connection, that connection was there since four years before BBS and both of them were totally fine without having their hearts to be physically together.
Also, when the second, worse injury came and the connection wasn't sufficient to hold Ven's heart anymore Ven's heart went on to hide inside Sora's, their hearts didn't fuse together into one like with Xehanort and Terra.
Ven's heart always remained connected to Sora's, it doesn't mean it had to physically stay with it, because as I explained earlier, Ven's heart was incapable of being released and needs to be inside Sora's body in order to give Roxas Ven's looks.

Wrong; Ven's Heart doesn't need Sora's Body, it needs Sora's Heart. That's what is healing and sustaining it. His Heart and Sora's may not have fused together, but his Heart can't exist without Sora's so it's one and the same.

It has nothing to do with being speculative as it only really makes sense this way. Ven's heart being released is what doesn't make sense, there's no actual incident/reason in the story that would make this necessary, but it would unneccessarily overcomplicate Roxas's looks and the explanations why he can feel and wield a keyblade.

I disagree; as I've described above, the explanation that Roxas has Sora's Body which has Ven's Heart is what complicates matters, because Namine also has Sora's Body and therefore also has Ven's Heart and therefore should also look like Ven, but doesn't.

I guess that would mean how you define "relationship".
Data-Naminé spoke of Sora and Ven having a very special and deep connection with each other...heck, Aqua even remarked how much they look alike. They're practically heartmates/-brothers.

I think I'll just agree to disagree on this one. The game makes it abundantly clear that Kairi and Sora also have a "very special and deep connection"; so it's really just how you qualify the depth of their differing relationships in your own mind.

The primary reason that their hearts crossed paths is that Sora's heart actually bothered to stray from its path for Ven's. It was not obliged to help, so something must have awakened Sora's interest.

That would be the secondary reason, if it's true. If Ven had been a hundred Worlds away, Sora's Heart wouldn't have sensed his Heart and wouldn't have offered to help. Therefore, the primary reason is that Ven was at Destiny Islands, and either his Heart sought out Sora's or Sora's sought out his. I don't really disagree with you on this point, however, so I'm willing to let it go.

That's not what I meant, the heartless would have taken her heart just like Maleficent did with Aurora's in BBS and then either Ansem SoD or Maleficent would have had Kairi's heart captive. To prevent that Kairi's heart sought out the nearest shelter she could find, which happened to be Sora's heart.

Oh, I suppose this is true. I still Kairi having a preexisting connection with Sora was the main reason her Heart fled to his, but that's not significant in the long-run.

With Ven it was a bit different though, we have to look at things in order:
First after Ven's heart was nearly destroyed it was still there, but struggling not to disappear, Yen Sid couldn't sense it but it was there, evidenced by the fact that while being carried on Aqua's back Ven could still muster some last strength to summon his keyblade (reminiscent to the prologue where it also indicated his heart "lives") to open a way to Land of Departure.
After Aqua left Ven in the chamber of waking, Sora felt Ven's pain and sadness through their strong connection and called out to him on Riku's suggestion. This allowed Ven's heart to follow Sora's voice through their connection right into Sora's heart. Since he knew he couldn't struggle on much longer he asked Sora to give him a place to rest.

Like I said, I agree with all of this on principle. :3

Yep, in one of the Ultimanias.

Would you mind directing me to which one? You don't have to provide a link if it's trouble to find it, I'd just like to read this for myself. I can find it if you'll just let me know which game's Ultimania it was (I thought I'd read all of them...).

Ven's heart isn't sustained constantly by Sora's heart, it rests inside it to bear the pain better and slowly recuperate.

Actually, Ven's Heart is sustained constantly by Sora's. That's why it fled to Sora's; so that Sora's could keep it from going to sleep and possibly, over time, repair it in exactly the same way he had done when he lent his light to Ven at the start of BBS. Let me put it this way: Ven's Heart was too broken to repair itself after Master Xehanort split it in two and it was the exact same situation, only worse, when Ven destroyed the X-Blade, which essentially shattered his Heart entirely. Ven's Heart would not heal itself, it was in an active state of disrepair, failing by the moment. Xehanort says as much in his report, referring to the first time Ven's Heart was injured: that it was falling to sleep, which as we know is as close to dying as anything gets in the KH universe. Therefore, when it was shattered along with the X-Blade, it did not just hide inside Sora's Heart, it relied on Sora's Heart.

What Sora did in the BBS-Prologue was to let their hearts touch, which created the connection and kept Ven's heart from breaking totally.

Exactly, because without that, Ven's Heart would have broken totally, which is what happened when the X-Blade was destroyed.

Sora's darkness would actually harm Ven's heart that's why it couldn't "stay" with it.

The fact that Ven's Heart is weak would have only made it more vulnerable to the darkness; however, there is no precedence of the darkness sending a Heart to "sleep" or shattering it (which are the only real forms of harm that can be inflicted on a Heart), since all that happens when a Heart falls to darkness is that a Heartless is formed from it. If Sora's Heart could be revived by Kairi without any apparent damage having been done to his Heart by the darkness, so could Ven's, especially if Ven's Heart was shielded by Sora's. Furthermore, if Ven's Heart is pure light, the darkness wouldn't have been able to touch it at all (as is the case with Kairi's Heart of pure light). Perhaps this is why Sora was able to maintain his memories and sense of self as a Heartless; the pieces of light from Ven's Heart remaining within his corrupted Heart allowed him to continue to function with some degree of self-knowledge.

I don't know why you're so adamant on saying that Ven's heart must stay with Sora's when it doesn't. Once the danger of completely fading away is no more (which 4-year old Sora did in the end of BBS) the heart can settle down and start to slowly heal.

Again, no, Ven's Heart can not heal itself. Sora repaired it in the beginning of BBS by providing light to temporarily mend the fragmented portion representing Vanitas's segment of Ven's Heart. At the end of BBS, Sora offered a space in his Heart for Ven's to reside and be healed.

Ven's first injury was already grave, but after Sora prevented it from fading it started to slowly heal. During the 4 years between that incidcent and the start of BBS Ven's heart regenerated and was "formed" as Nomura put it.

That's not true. Ven's Heart was always incomplete without Vanitas's. Presuming Vanitas did not return to Ven's Heart at the end of BBS, it still is.

Now, of course the second injury was way worse and bigger, but the actual time-frame (10 years) was also bigger, so I would think it's not so farfetched to assume that Ven's heart was capable at least to accomplish the feat to hang on for a short time without hiding inside Sora's heart directly.

Likewise, I submit that it's not so farfetched to assume that, given that it was residing in Sora's Heart, given that Sora's Heart was mending and protecting it, given that Ven's Heart may still be pure light, it could have survived falling to darkness (or residing in a Heart corrupted by darkness) for a short period of time.

Like said, it had only to hang on for a short time. If Kairi didn't restore Sora fast enough Ven's heart would probably have been lost and Roxas would have been a normal nobody.

That defeats the cohesiveness of your argument. If Ven's Heart could be sustained on Sora's Body or Soul for a short period of time, why couldn't it be sustained on those same aspects of existence for a longer period of time? If Ven's Heart was repairing itself and it could do that just as well within Sora's Body and Soul, why would it need Sora's Heart at all? Furthermore, it never returned to Sora's Heart until Roxas returned to Sora, according to you, so it was actually sustaining itself for approximately a year; therefore, it never needed Sora's Heart to be revived. You've inadvertently admitted that Sora's Heart is sustaining Ven's; otherwise, it's irrelevant to the equation.

Yeah, and memories form your sense of self. Ergo complete new memories from scratch => new "being/person/whatever".
If he had Sora's memories he would also have Sora's sense of self, then his independent identity would never have formed. This is what would have happened if Sora stayed a heartless, as he admitted to Kairi that he was starting to forget things. So the "transfer" was initiated but not a single memory ever reached Roxas (or rather, the blank slate that later developed into Roxas) since Kairi intervened "in time".
But the own sense of self did form and that means more than you are apparently willing to give credit for.
In Days Naminé was really astounded on how fiercely both Xion and Roxas were fighting to be their own people.

Well, I can agree with all of this. All I meant to do by way of my previous response was to clarify that memories were the key in that scenario.

It does correlate with the possession factor because it shows that Ansem SoD had not a new vessel like Sora gained from Kairi, in order to get his human appearance back he needed to possess a real body. Sora didn't because of Kairi's help.

Yes, but my point is that because Sora gained a vessel back through entirely different means than Ansem SoD, we don't know that he could have gained a vessel back through the same means as Ansem SoD (and vice versa) and we don't know that the vessels they gained back were the same in composition. So, wait, I think we actually agree on that matter.

We also had no other shadows who regained their sense of self.

Yes. That's my point.

He calls Sora incomplete because his real body and soul are missing, yes, but not in direct reference to Roxas as a person.
Normal nobodies aren't "parts" of someone but the continuation of someone, which in Sora's case doesn't fit since he continued as himself.

Well, technically, Roxas continued as him, and then Sora continued as himself a very short while afterward. Sora was a Heartless, after all.

It doesn't need to be confirmed outright by Nomura, it can be seen in-game because Sora is running around, chatting and stuff while Roxas does the same and can fully think and act for himself. Not to mention that Roxas started out blank with all "parts" of a full being: Body & Soul (Sora) and Heart (Ven). His mind and memories are his own, belonging neither to Sora nor Ven.

That doesn't prove that Roxas is a Ven-Sora hybrid. It proves that Roxas is a completely independent existence, if anything.

He was also called the "Sora + Ven" nobody in an interview and in retrospect the main problem that he couldn't be allowed to exist in the physical world in this configuration beside the memory-mess Naminé and Xion created was because the important parts for that existence were not his own.

I agree with this, however, I think he was called the "Sora + Ven" Nobody as a figure of speech (because he looks like Ven and comes from Sora), not a literal interpretation of his character.

This is long but really fun, lol.
Good debate.
Don't get the wrong vibe though, I am in no way intending on sounding harsh or something, I'm just prone to bolster my explanations with connecting game events through the entire series and interview-stuff.

Don't worry, I'm not angry or anything. I thought it was a bit cheeky of you to ask if I had played BBS, so I was slightly offended by that. Otherwise, though, I'm having a good bit of fun, even if my brain hurts from trying to work out the tangled threads of the series. I should say that, ultimately, I think you're right about much of what we're debating, but I still think it leaves a great deal of plot holes and I'll stick to my guns until I'm proven definitively otherwise. At this point, I have more questions than answers. ;]

 

[Goldpanner]

@alexis.anagram
I googled 'terra's soul lingering will' in Japanese, and it seemed the only time Japanese fans used the same word for 'soul' to debate the pieces of Terra was when they were talking about his spirit or self for lack of a better word, and people replied questioning that terminology and quoting the Nomura interview I posted before. Seems like our fanbases are pretty similar in nit-picking haha

It's okay if you don't see it as relevant. Personally, I think it's useful to remember that the function of these words in the series seem to be based off Eastern concepts, and if you ignore or write off the original Eastern concepts and try to instead build your understanding from a Western standpoint, you're unlikely to find harmonious answers. But, I do get that it's fun to try and join the dots ourselves with what we know, which is clearly what you're doing here.

Which ties in to whether I care about the debate or not: just think of this as me mentioning some extra dots you could think about. Think about them, write them off, whatevs~

@Sephiroth0812
I wonder if the Lingering Will has any sort of tie to the way Japanese people perceive ghosts and stuff? I remember reading about in Shinto belief, after death you seem go on to fulfil different functions, like part of you will become an ancestor guardian spirit, etc etc. But I am just talking out of my ass, you're better off researching it yourself. I might email a friend and ask her on her impressions on the words. Even though Nomura has his own twist on them, as I said before I believe it's helpful to try and learn about where Nomura himself started from and the cultural context he was operating within.

As for 'back to normal', it was 'back to original, back to the way he was' etc etc. I think it implies he has everything he had before, but idk.

And nah, I don't think it makes Kairi able to do it with anyone. I think there has to be a mixture of magic and love. Off the top of my head I can think of Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, Pinocchio, the Little Mermaid... they all include characters where someone else's love is connected to magical form changing or coming back from the 'dead'. I don't really want to go into a Sora/Kairi debate though. Think of it like Geppetto and Pinocchio if it makes you feel any better... lol

And nope, nit-picking is fun :3 I remember ages ago I used to love nitpick-every-sentence-til-you-don't-even-know-what-you're-arguing debates, helped me blow off steam after a crap day at work ;D

 

[gelandporn]

The problem is that this doesn't explain how and from what Sora's physical Body was formed when she brought him back. "Thoughts" and "memories" are concepts, not tangible elements; this is why it seems practical to me that Kairi's light formed a new vessel, if he did indeed lose his original Body.

Well I'd first like to point out that thoughts and memories must have some kind of tangibility to them. How does Namine interact with the chain of memories? How did Sora's memories take on a corporeal form in Castle Oblivion? How did Vexen extract "data" (ie memories) from Riku and create Repliku from them? And then there's LS/Vanitas Remnant, who are said to be "thoughts" (/will/whatever). While ordinarily we probably can't see/interact with memories in the KH universe, there's definitely means of grounding them in actual substance. So to say that Kairi's memories could be the building block for Sora's new body would not be unheard of.

However, that's not even what gp was saying. Go back to her first post. She essentially said the same thing you're saying, just with an additional specification: "her light gave Sora a body based on her memories." Now, the character report doesn't say anything about her light bringing Sora back, but it doesn't say her memories were the literal basis of Sora's body either, just that 'Kairi's thoughts and memories brought Sora back to normal.'

We still know that her light was involved, though:

Kairi: I didn’t want to just forget about you, Sora. I couldn’t.

Sora: That’s it! Our hearts are connected. And the light from our hearts broke
through the darkness. I saw that light. I think that’s what saved me. No matter
how deep the darkness, a light shines within. I guess it’s more than just a
fairy tale.

Her light saved Sora. And that light was evoked from her not wanting to forget him, ie her thoughts and memories of Sora.
So if you piece this together, I think it's pretty simple. Her light fashioned a new body for Sora, and it was crafted based on her memories of Sora. In other words, her light took the form of her memories.

Sooo, their light touched and Kairi's light gave him a new body. She made him remember as he was falling into darkness, so I think (as an aside), this is what forged that intimate connection that Namine refers to in CoM:

She's your light. The light within the darkness. If you can remember her...all the memories lost in the shadows of your heart will come into the light.

It's why Namine can influence Sora's memories, why Roxas and Kairi could speak telepathically, and all that jazz. Their lights (and memories) are deeply linked from that event.

And if that's enough for you, that's your prerogative. I don't find it particularly inspired, however, and I would prefer a more encompassing resolution to the question.

But that's like saying you need a better explanation for how Beast turned back into the prince, or how Pinocchio became a real boy. Actually, it's not even that because the explanation we have here is already far more intricate than that (and far more in-depth than it has to be). It's deus ex machina.

This is not a real issue. This isn't something that the series will come back to, it's not something that further revelations will shed light on. Nomura hasn't been sitting there thinking "but how did the soul work into that restoration back in KH1"? And yeah, it can be fun to share ideas on it, but using speculation on something like Terra's LS to try to rationalize an explanation is not going to get you anywhere.

With what we already know in the series, we can already produce reasonable explanations.
A body needs a soul in order to be alive.
Sora has some kind of body from Kairi's restoration.
But Roxas has his original body/soul.

Those facts alone leave you with very limited options. One is that, rather simply, Kairi fashioned Sora a new body and soul. People don't want to consider this because of Western bias, but it really is the simplest and most logical explanation. if you just look at the soul as the "battery" for the body, then this fits perfectly. Rather, you're actually creating a problem by assuming that there must be more to the soul than we've been told. There is no real hole here, it's just a matter of how much you're willing to accept.
As I said, another option is that Sora could somehow use his soul remotely from Roxas, which seems a bit sillier, but perfectly adequate for someone who is really that adamant about the soul having to be unique, despite how the heart has taken on virtually all of the properties we conventionally associate with the soul (aside from keeping the body alive).
Buuut, does it matter either way? Nope.

 

[DropDistance]

Wait, so if Ven get's his heart back, will Roxas still look like him or no? If he does, is it because he's just a soul now, and doesn't have a physical existence anymore? I have another question, it may be a little off topic, but I felt it would fit in this thread more:
If Roxas had somehow "died", will Sora "die"/cease to exist too? If Roxas is one, then Sora's body and soul is gone.

 

[alexis.anagram]

It's okay if you don't see it as relevant. Personally, I think it's useful to remember that the function of these words in the series seem to be based off Eastern concepts, and if you ignore or write off the original Eastern concepts and try to instead build your understanding from a Western standpoint, you're unlikely to find harmonious answers. But, I do get that it's fun to try and join the dots ourselves with what we know, which is clearly what you're doing here.

I recognize that, and I should clarify that the only perspective I am attempting to build from is based upon the objective information which is presented within the story and Nomura interviews, as I understand it. I'm not attached to a Western interpretation of the games. However, any story that identifies concepts and symbolism which directly relates to its continuity should necessarily rationalize them; so, I repeat, my interest is in how the elements of the Body, Soul and Heart function within the story, as they are described within the story, whether those concepts be of Eastern origin or not.

Well I'd first like to point out that thoughts and memories must have some kind of tangibility to them. How does Namine interact with the chain of memories?

Not physically. She has a conceptual ability to rearrange his memories by way of affecting his heart; it's all metaphysical, like the fight between Ven and Vanitas in Birth By Sleep.

How did Sora's memories take on a corporeal form in Castle Oblivion?

It's never clarified, but I always assumed it was a cohesion of the illusory affects of the castle and possibly some effort on the part of the Organization. Regardless, we know Sora didn't actually visit the Worlds from his memories, he simply had the experience of doing so.

How did Vexen extract "data" (ie memories) from Riku and create Repliku from them?

Because memories can manifest into data, as seen in coded. It's a metaphysical to physical process and it apparently requires specific technology, but it follows the canonical logic of the universe of KH.

And then there's LS/Vanitas Remnant, who are said to be "thoughts" (/will/whatever).

Well, if I'm right, the Sentiment and Remnant have nothing to do with memory but strong will or possibly the Soul. And as for the Remnant, we don't know to what extent that is canon.

While ordinarily we probably can't see/interact with memories in the KH universe, there's definitely means of grounding them in actual substance. So to say that Kairi's memories could be the building block for Sora's new body would not be unheard of.

Of course not. Xion was crafted from Sora's memories based on Roxas's Body. As long as there is a physical interim in the process, between the conceptual and the actual, I have no conflict with any interpretation of Sora's "resurrection."

However, that's not even what gp was saying. Go back to her first post. She essentially said the same thing you're saying, just with an additional specification: "her light gave Sora a body based on her memories." Now, the character report doesn't say anything about her light bringing Sora back, but it doesn't say her memories were the literal basis of Sora's body either, just that 'Kairi's thoughts and memories brought Sora back to normal.'

We still know that her light was involved, though:


Her light saved Sora. And that light was evoked from her not wanting to forget him, ie her thoughts and memories of Sora.
So if you piece this together, I think it's pretty simple. Her light fashioned a new body for Sora, and it was crafted based on her memories of Sora. In other words, her light took the form of her memories.

Sooo, their light touched and Kairi's light gave him a new body. She made him remember as he was falling into darkness, so I think (as an aside), this is what forged that intimate connection that Namine refers to in CoM:


It's why Namine can influence Sora's memories, why Roxas and Kairi could speak telepathically, and all that jazz. Their lights (and memories) are deeply linked from that event.

I have already provided that all of this is more than possible a number of times. Sora's Body being crafted from Kairi's light based on memories is a very plausible idea within Kingdom Hearts.

But that's like saying you need a better explanation for how Beast turned back into the prince, or how Pinocchio became a real boy.

Beast turned back into a prince because he was already a prince before he was turned into the Beast. It was part of the terms of an enchantment which functions within the universe of his story perfectly. Pinocchio became a real boy for the same reason. It's contextual. Kingdom Hearts does not function on the same internal logic as those movies. Sora wasn't enchanted by a fairy. He unlocked his Heart with a Keyblade. They are not equivalent concepts.

Actually, it's not even that because the explanation we have here is already far more intricate than that (and far more in-depth than it has to be).

That's subjective. I believe that this thread has successfully resolved the matter of where Sora's Body came from when his Heart was purified of the darkness, so I won't argue it beyond that.

It's deus ex machina.

Not if it's explicable and the plot rationalizes it, which is, in my mind, always preferable to a contrived resolution.

 

[Goldpanner]

the only perspective I am attempting to build from is based upon the objective information which is presented within the story and Nomura interviews, as I understand it

Well, can you see how 'as I understand it' implies 'from my unobjective Western mindset', which will colour how you interpret the concepts and symbols presented in the game in ways you might not even realise?

Not to mention, I think the information presented in the games is not objective. I think, the manner and extent to which a concept etc. will be described in a story is part of the context of the culture of the people who wrote it and the audience it was written for. For example, they will assume what they can leave out explaining due to common knowledge, emphasise things they know won't be the dominant reading, and play and twist common conceptions in interesting ways knowing the audience will understand what they are referencing.

I won't argue this is a huge factor in general in Kingdom Hearts because it obviously has huge Western influence and input compared to other Japanese games, but if Nomura himself has said Westerners/Disney didn't understand a particular concept (here heart/body/soul), then it's worth keeping in consideration.

Besides, it's always interesting to read about other cultures and stuff :3

 

[gelandporn]

I recognize that, and I should clarify that the only perspective I am attempting to build from is based upon the objective information which is presented within the story and Nomura interviews, as I understand it. I'm not attached to a Western interpretation of the games. However, any story that identifies concepts and symbolism which directly relates to its continuity should necessarily rationalize them; so, I repeat, my interest is in how the elements of the Body, Soul and Heart function within the story, as they are described within the story, whether those concepts be of Eastern origin or not.

The point is that in order to have the complete perspective in a discussion on how these elements of a being operate in KH, you necessarily have to consider the influences (Eastern, Western, or anything else). In order to know what they do, you have to understand what they are. In order to understand what they are, it is important to discuss the thought process, the influence that goes into that conception. Otherwise things won't translate well in a cross-cultural story. You're right that a story's concepts should be "rationalized" in the story, but often there are concepts which are based on a certain culture/method of thinking/etc that may be apparent to one group but not to another (eg things being lost in translation).

So for instance, we might have a few Nomura quotes and in-game dialogue on a certain concept, and make our own interpretations (or assumptions) on what these mean but you cannot know whether or not the answer you arrive at is biased/restricted (toward the West or in some other way), until you broaden your perspective and look past what is readily presented before you. I mean, nothing wrong with your own interpretations, and yeah, certainly no one is forcing you to put this much effort into understanding a video game series (anything I've done in this area is scratching the surface at best), but yeah, you should keep that in mind.

Not physically. She has a conceptual ability to rearrange his memories by way of affecting his heart; it's all metaphysical, like the fight between Ven and Vanitas in Birth By Sleep.


It's never clarified, but I always assumed it was a cohesion of the illusory affects of the castle and possibly some effort on the part of the Organization. Regardless, we know Sora didn't actually visit the Worlds from his memories, he simply had the experience of doing so.


Because memories can manifest into data, as seen in coded. It's a metaphysical to physical process and it apparently requires specific technology, but it follows the canonical logic of the universe of KH.


Well, if I'm right, the Sentiment and Remnant have nothing to do with memory but strong will or possibly the Soul. And as for the Remnant, we don't know to what extent that is canon.


Of course not. Xion was crafted from Sora's memories based on Roxas's Body. As long as there is a physical interim in the process, between the conceptual and the actual, I have no conflict with any interpretation of Sora's "resurrection."

Emotions, thoughts, memories, they have all been shown to be capable of taking on a corporeal form and having physical effects (changing appearance, animating things, etc). That's.... all I was getting at. More abstract concepts like light (not the scientific version) and darkness are given physical form. Soooo, with that in mind, yeah, it is not hard to imagine.

I have already provided that all of this is more than possible a number of times. Sora's Body being crafted from Kairi's light based on memories is a very plausible idea within Kingdom Hearts.

Ok? And I was just showing you that gp said the same thing and then going on my spiel (I know some of that is not relevant to our discussion, I just wanted to talk about it because I found it interesting).

Beast turned back into a prince because he was already a prince before he was turned into the Beast. It was part of the terms of an enchantment which functions within the universe of his story perfectly. Pinocchio became a real boy for the same reason. It's contextual. Kingdom Hearts does not function on the same internal logic as those movies. Sora wasn't enchanted by a fairy. He unlocked his Heart with a Keyblade. They are not equivalent concepts.

Not if it's explicable and the plot rationalizes it, which is, in my mind, always preferable to a contrived resolution.

You are taking that way too literally lol. Sora didn't have a fairy so it's totally different!
We're talking about the fundamental force at work here, which is love, or friendship, or whatever word you want to use to describe that special bond. And that bond is powerful enough to work miracles. Idk why you would say it's not the same thing when, you know, these stories are all contained in KH. The main story intentionally emulates some of these Disney themes.

And deus ex machina =/= no explanation/rationalization. There can definitely be no explanation and that can help foster the "deus ex machina" effect, but yeah. I mean, I don't know how you can't think that it is, it's Sora being saved by the literal power of love/friendship/etc, that is textbook deus ex machina.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I'll address this as one of your later points. I sort of agree, though I am adamant that it was not Sora's Body which was the necessary vessel but Sora's Heart.

I never implied that Sora's body is a necessary vessel for Ven's heart to reside in. It is where it ended up involuntary.

I'm afraid I have to shoot down that persistence then, lol.
In a friendly manner of course.

The idea that the Heart can latch onto the Soul isn't very probable, as it abolishes much of the consistency between the elements of existence. The Soul is its own force; the Heart works as a separate force in tandem with the Soul and the Body is simply the physical vessel in which both exist. This explanation relies on too many loopholes and still doesn't make sense; your premise follows as:

A) Ven's Heart was so weak it couldn't be affected properly by the Keyblade of Hearts (how does that work?)

B) It was strong enough (despite being asleep) to redirect its energies to the latch onto the Soul.

I know, that was just another shot in the blue and I don't believe that either.

As for Point A): Ven's heart was affected by the Keyblade of Hearts indirectly. The keyblade unlocked Sora's heart (not Kairi's, nor Ven's, because they were inside Sora's heart).
Sora's heart got overtaken by its darkness in the process, Kairi's heart fled back into her body, Ven's heart was left behind because it sleeps and can't function fully.

B) doesn't need to be addressed further since it was a blue-shot, lol.

Again I have the impression you don't get what I am implying when I mean "Ven's heart could recuperate over the 10 years up to Sora stabbing himself to a degree."
But on that later.

Why? I can't imagine the Keyblade of Hearts discriminates based upon how much damage it may inflict on the Heart in question. It was created by Ansem SoD, after all. What you're essentially implying is that Ven's Heart was strong enough to rebel against the power of the Keyblade of Hearts but wouldn't have been strong enough to follow Sora's Heart...you're playing its strengths to your benefit and simultaneously claiming its too weak when that works in your favor. I'm saying that none of that is relevant, because it was fixed to Sora's Heart.

As I said, it has nothing to do with the Keyblade of Hearts, it only unlocked Sora's heart which in turn got overtaken by darkness, kicking both Kairi's and Ven's heart out and then Sora's and Kairi's hearts left Sora's body, giving birth to Roxas and Naminé.
The keyblade of hearts doesn't release hearts, it only unlocks them and exposes them to their own darkness.

Then why would it not have done this to Ventus's Heart?

1. Because Ven's heart, as well as Kairi's, wasn't unlocked, Sora's heart was the target of the keyblade of hearts and the unlocking of his heart kicked out Kairi's and Ven's. Kairi's got properly released then since it could return to its body and was healthy, Ven's was not.
2. Even if Ven's heart would have been unlocked it wouldn't have mattered since he has no darkness to succumb to.

Alternatively, Ven's Heart may have remained with Sora's, Kairi's Heart (being conscious) separated from Sora's of its own will and went back to Kairi.

Ven's heart could not have remained with Sora's because it was swallowed by darkness, and it remaining with Sora's contradicts all evidence we have for Roxas having a heart.

Yes.

Good, one paragraph cleared, lol.

This is where I think KH has stumped itself, if you're right: if Ven's Heart stayed within Sora's Body independently, that means Roxas is a complete person; he would have had Ven's memories and taken on Ven's personality, as well as his appearance. Meanwhile, Namine should look exactly like Ven because she has Sora's Body. Logically, the premise follows as such: Namine and Roxas have the same Body (Sora's): Ven's Heart stayed within Sora's Body, which is shared by Roxas and Namine: Roxas has Ven's Heart because Roxas has Sora's Body: Namine has Ven's Heart because Namine has Sora's Body; Roxas looks exactly like Ven: Namine should look exactly like Ven. Namine can't have a Sora's Body that's different from Sora's Body. That's a contradiction in terms. Therefore, either:

A) Namine does not have Sora's Body (in which case whose Body does she have and why would she be influenced to look like Ven at all?)

B) Ven's Heart indirectly influenced both Roxas and Namine when it fell to darkness along with Sora's Heart. Roxas looks like Ven because he was born from Sora's and Ven's Hearts, whereas Namine was born from Kairi's Heart, so she retained a different appearance.

Neither explanation is sufficient as an all-around resolution to this question. I don't know why Roxas would look like Ven and not Sora, but it doesn't make any sense at all for Namine to not have Ven's Heart given the scenario (Ven's Heart inside Sora's Body), and it doesn't make any sense for her not to look like Ven if she has Ven's Heart when Roxas looks exactly like Ven because he has Ven's Heart. If it's due to the influence of Kairi's Heart, then the fact that Roxas was born from Sora's Heart means that he should just look like Sora with blonde hair and blue eyes, the same way Namine essentially looks like Kairi with blonde hair and blue eyes (and longer hair, randomly). Nothing makes sense anymore.

Stop, stop. You are thinking way too far.
Yes, Roxas has, in essence, all parts to be a full person, but these parts aren't his, that's what makes the difference.
No, he would not and cannot have Ven's memories nor take on his "sense of self" because exactly this sense of self, the being that is "Ventus" is asleep and inactive. Ven's memories are sealed away as well as his keyblade because his heart is still damaged, just not as severe as it was when he sought out Sora at the end of BBS.
The heart has recuperated to a point where it could be sustained without having to be directly in Sora's heart, but still not enough to function properly again. Just like during the 4year-gap between BBS-Prologue and BBS (I get on that also a few paragraphs later).

Niaaargh, stoppy right there, you make a big logical error here:
Naminé DOESN'T have Sora's body, only Roxas has Sora's body.
Naminé was born using Sora's body and soul as an intermediary, explaining why she's slightly influenced by Ven (hair), but Sora's body itself was alone kept by Roxas.

Naminé is, as observed by Ansem the Wise, a total paradox, she has no body, no soul and (apparently) no heart, yet she still exists.
That's one of the biggest points and mysteries about Naminé, Sora's body wasn't "shared"
*has nearly a heart-attack* ;P

But that's exactly the point, Roxas was born from Sora's heart and didn't look exactly like Sora only with blonde hair because Ven's heart remained with him. It was there and influenced the shape of Sora's body because it was the only heart left in the vessel.

I will clear this up in short order with the interview bits as you apparently can't see it clearly enough from in-game stuff because you insist on Ven's heart having to remain with Sora's which is in this case, as I pointed out, not only impossible but also unneccessary.

And you need two Hearts to wield two. Roxas didn't have two Hearts, but he could wield two Keybaldes. Even assuming Ven's Heart was inside Roxas, we know he was able to wield a second Keyblade because of his connection to Sora's Heart, which was not residing in Roxas's Body. Therefore, Ven's Heart didn't have to be inside Roxas's Body in order for him to access it (if he was connected to Sora's Heart, and Ven's Heart is inside Sora's Heart, he would have access to both).

You don't get my point. Roxas could wield two keyblades later because he was connected to Sora's heart through their link and had Ven's heart with him.
If Roxas didn't have Ven's heart inside him he could not have wielded any keyblade at all, because a heart must be physically present in order to summon and wield the keyblade.

If Roxas didn't have Ven's heart he would still have been qualified to wield Sora's blade (through their link) but could simply not have summoned it because he carried no heart.
The heart carrying counts here.

This interview snippet has two statements (which I bolded) that explain the whole issue:

Spoiler Show

-- In the end Roxas is able use two keyblades. Is this because he now has Xion’s?

Nomura: Well, it isn’t that Roxas has physically inherited Xion’s keyblade, but more that Xion has awakened it within Roxas. In the KH series there are a lot of complex reasons why someone can use a keyblade, but basically you need a “heart” to be able to wield one. So strictly speaking, they are being influenced by Sora. At the present I can’t say more than that, since it would go into whether or not Roxas has a heart. And there is also a part that has to do with Xehanort’s memories. This time there were connections to the Kingdom Hearts I secret movie, and the time will come when this will have a clear connection as well. You’ll just have to ask me then.

The first bolded part practically spills it out already:
The second keyblade (Ven's) was awakened within Roxas, meaning from Ven's heart inside Roxas.
When Xion "died" and was absorbed, Roxas had an emotional breakdown which was so hard he shortly gained full access to Ven's injured heart, activating/pulling out Ven's keyblade.
The second part is the one of the "heart needed to wield" stuff and the third one (that interview was before BBS came out so Nomura is vague about it) spills the hint "Roxas has a heart" practically out again.

That's one possibility, however, if Ven's Heart was restored with Vanitas's at the end of BBS, his Heart would no longer be pure light since Vanitas's darkness would have been restored as well.

Ven's heart wasn't "restored" with Vanitas because it didn't need to be. What happened was that Ventus destroyed Vanitas, finally ending the forced fusion between their hearts which he never wanted, evidenced by Vanitas fading and the reformed platform not showing any trace of Vanitas anymore in contrast to the earlier one where Van's invading heart made up half of the platform. Ventus repelled Vanitas's attempted invasion and with the X-blade destroyed him as well.

Wrong; Ven's Heart doesn't need Sora's Body, it needs Sora's Heart. That's what is healing and sustaining it. His Heart and Sora's may not have fused together, but his Heart can't exist without Sora's so it's one and the same.

Both is wrong at the specific time period in KH 1. During the 10 years that passed, Ven's heart indeed needed to be fully inside Sora's, because only there it could start to recuperate with indirect help from Sora.
When the time came where Sora made the sacrifice though, the recuperation was already advanced enough for Ven's injured heart so that the connection was now sufficient enough again to at least "hold the current state". If Ven's heart could slowly recuperate more while with Roxas is subject to debate, but I would assume it may be possible as well due to the connection with Sora's heart which is still very deep, only slower.
Yeah, Ven needs Sora's heart, but as I pointed out above now, by the time Roxas was born the heart-connection was already sufficient again.

I disagree; as I've described above, the explanation that Roxas has Sora's Body which has Ven's Heart is what complicates matters, because Namine also has Sora's Body and therefore also has Ven's Heart and therefore should also look like Ven, but doesn't.

I will completely disregard this one as I've already pointed out the relevant things about it more above. You're mistaken if you think Naminé also has Sora's body, it was only used in her birth process, she didn't keep it.

I think I'll just agree to disagree on this one. The game makes it abundantly clear that Kairi and Sora also have a "very special and deep connection"; so it's really just how you qualify the depth of their differing relationships in your own mind.

Lol, ok, it also doesn't matter much to the actual debate.

That would be the secondary reason, if it's true. If Ven had been a hundred Worlds away, Sora's Heart wouldn't have sensed his Heart and wouldn't have offered to help. Therefore, the primary reason is that Ven was at Destiny Islands, and either his Heart sought out Sora's or Sora's sought out his. I don't really disagree with you on this point, however, so I'm willing to let it go.

It was made pretty clear that Sora's heart sought out Ven's, as Sora introduces himself with:
"I'm a brand new heart."

And Ven is flustered, asking: "But why are you in my heart?"
That sentence pretty much clears up that Ven didn't make first contact from his side.
But alright, that is also not so important to the central point (we need to get that shorter, rofl).

Oh, I suppose this is true. I still Kairi having a preexisting connection with Sora was the main reason her Heart fled to his, but that's not significant in the long-run.

Yep, that's what I meant with connecting dots from the whole series. ^__^
That is also an interpretation I acknowledge, so let's keep it at that.

Like I said, I agree with all of this on principle. :3

Ok. Nice.

Would you mind directing me to which one? You don't have to provide a link if it's trouble to find it, I'd just like to read this for myself. I can find it if you'll just let me know which game's Ultimania it was (I thought I'd read all of them...).

Even better, I give you the snippets in question, it's from the BBS Ultimania and proves not only that Roxas had a heart but also that it was Ven's:

Spoiler Show

Q1: Why do Roxas and Ventus look alike?
A: Because inside Sora, which is Roxas’ body, is Ventus’ heart.

As was shown in the opening to BbS and the ending to Last Episode, Sora and Ventus’ heart are linked (P.646). And so Roxas, who is a part of Sora, was affected by that and looks just like Ventus.

Q3: Is it possible that Roxas has a heart?
A: It is thought that it could be Ventus’ heart.

In KHII FM there were clues to him having a heart, and in Days we saw Roxas crying--proof that he could have a heart. As was said in Q1, he has taken a lot of himself from Ventus. But perhaps when Sora and Roxas were separated, Ventus’ heart stayed in Roxas?

Actually, Ven's Heart is sustained constantly by Sora's. That's why it fled to Sora's; so that Sora's could keep it from going to sleep and possibly, over time, repair it in exactly the same way he had done when he lent his light to Ven at the start of BBS. Let me put it this way: Ven's Heart was too broken to repair itself after Master Xehanort split it in two and it was the exact same situation, only worse, when Ven destroyed the X-Blade, which essentially shattered his Heart entirely. Ven's Heart would not heal itself, it was in an active state of disrepair, failing by the moment. Xehanort says as much in his report, referring to the first time Ven's Heart was injured: that it was falling to sleep, which as we know is as close to dying as anything gets in the KH universe. Therefore, when it was shattered along with the X-Blade, it did not just hide inside Sora's Heart, it relied on Sora's Heart.

Note: I am including those as well because they concern the same topic:

Again, no, Ven's Heart can not heal itself. Sora repaired it in the beginning of BBS by providing light to temporarily mend the fragmented portion representing Vanitas's segment of Ven's Heart. At the end of BBS, Sora offered a space in his Heart for Ven's to reside and be healed.


That's not true. Ven's Heart was always incomplete without Vanitas's. Presuming Vanitas did not return to Ven's Heart at the end of BBS, it still is.

When Sora touched Ven's heart in the Prologue of BBS he didn't repair it, he only prevented it from fading away and, in your own words, turned the state of "disrepair" into one of "repairable".

It is true that Ven's heart can't heal by itself, but in conjunction with other hearts.
With the first injury it was not Sora's alone though.
Ventus's heart was still injured to a degree after Sora's newborn saved him and helped him to awake, not heal him fully, as his eyes were still blank and he was only semi-conscious.
When Master Xehanort then took him back to keyblade graveyard he was totally helpless when Vanitas started to physically abuse him and beat him up.
After that, when MX decided to give him to Eraqus because he couldn't train them both we see Ven's still pitiful state in the flashback where he first meets Terra and Aqua and goes comatose under their questions because of his sealed away memories (the heart is still damaged).
Over the course of the 4 years between Prologue and BBS Terra, Aqua and Eraqus care for Ven and nurse him slowly back to health, his heart is formed again as confirmed by Nomura:

Spoiler Show

-- Ventus awakens with Sora's help, but at first his eyes are blank, and when he first meets Terra and Aqua he falls asleep under their barrage of questions.

Nomura: At that time, although Ventus has awakened, his heart is not fully formed. The imagery is the same as the first week after Roxas entered the organisation in "KH Days", when he was spacing out.

You seem to forget that for the forging of the x-blade two hearts are needed. Vanitas has his own heart. In the BBS Novels it even gets decribed as a newborn heart.
Vanitas doesn't need Ven to survive and vice versa.
The main reason Ven's heart was in such a bad shape were MX's brutal methods and the fact Ven's heart was already weakened from heartless-attacks.

In the end of BBS Ven rejected Vanitas, remember?

Exactly, because without that, Ven's Heart would have broken totally, which is what happened when the X-Blade was destroyed.

Totally correct, and you are also correct with saying that then Ven's heart needed to fully rely on Sora's heart and remain with it.
The only step remaining now is taking the things (and the interview snippet) above and apply them to Ven's more grave wounds and the longer time period until Sora stabbed himself.

The fact that Ven's Heart is weak would have only made it more vulnerable to the darkness; however, there is no precedence of the darkness sending a Heart to "sleep" or shattering it (which are the only real forms of harm that can be inflicted on a Heart), since all that happens when a Heart falls to darkness is that a Heartless is formed from it. If Sora's Heart could be revived by Kairi without any apparent damage having been done to his Heart by the darkness, so could Ven's, especially if Ven's Heart was shielded by Sora's. Furthermore, if Ven's Heart is pure light, the darkness wouldn't have been able to touch it at all (as is the case with Kairi's Heart of pure light). Perhaps this is why Sora was able to maintain his memories and sense of self as a Heartless; the pieces of light from Ven's Heart remaining within his corrupted Heart allowed him to continue to function with some degree of self-knowledge.

This one can be handled fast since I explained above why the keyblade of hearts didn't affect Ven's heart directly.

Likewise, I submit that it's not so farfetched to assume that, given that it was residing in Sora's Heart, given that Sora's Heart was mending and protecting it, given that Ven's Heart may still be pure light, it could have survived falling to darkness (or residing in a Heart corrupted by darkness) for a short period of time.

Say connected with a heart corrupted by darkness and we are there where I want to be.
Ven's heart is in Roxas, still injured enough to not function properly, but not so much that it needs to be inside Sora's the whole time.

That defeats the cohesiveness of your argument. If Ven's Heart could be sustained on Sora's Body or Soul for a short period of time, why couldn't it be sustained on those same aspects of existence for a longer period of time? If Ven's Heart was repairing itself and it could do that just as well within Sora's Body and Soul, why would it need Sora's Heart at all? Furthermore, it never returned to Sora's Heart until Roxas returned to Sora, according to you, so it was actually sustaining itself for approximately a year; therefore, it never needed Sora's Heart to be revived. You've inadvertently admitted that Sora's Heart is sustaining Ven's; otherwise, it's irrelevant to the equation.

It doesn't have to be sustained on a longer peroid because the connection between the hearts is still intact, it still depends on Sora's heart, but not anymore from inside of it, get it with all the stuff from above? ^___^

Well, I can agree with all of this. All I meant to do by way of my previous response was to clarify that memories were the key in that scenario.

Alright then.

Yes, but my point is that because Sora gained a vessel back through entirely different means than Ansem SoD, we don't know that he could have gained a vessel back through the same means as Ansem SoD (and vice versa) and we don't know that the vessels they gained back were the same in composition. So, wait, I think we actually agree on that matter.

Yeah, indeed.

Well, technically, Roxas continued as him, and then Sora continued as himself a very short while afterward. Sora was a Heartless, after all.

Correction: Roxas didn't "continue" at all, he was a blank slate/zombie, totally newborn being only with the body of a 14year-old.
Roxas was literally empty at first, as seen in Days he first couldn't even speak a word.

That doesn't prove that Roxas is a Ven-Sora hybrid. It proves that Roxas is a completely independent existence, if anything.

That depends on how you define "existence", in terms of the spiritual/metaphysical layer you're absolutely correct, Roxas is a completely new, independent existence that developed/evolved over time, as his mind, sense of self and memories are uniquely his own.
In terms of the physical layer and his actual composition as a "person" though he's a Ven-Sora hybrid (2/3 Sora and 1/3 Ven).

I agree with this, however, I think he was called the "Sora + Ven" Nobody as a figure of speech (because he looks like Ven and comes from Sora), not a literal interpretation of his character.

Agreed, another paragraph that can be closed, lol.

Don't worry, I'm not angry or anything. I thought it was a bit cheeky of you to ask if I had played BBS, so I was slightly offended by that. Otherwise, though, I'm having a good bit of fun, even if my brain hurts from trying to work out the tangled threads of the series. I should say that, ultimately, I think you're right about much of what we're debating, but I still think it leaves a great deal of plot holes and I'll stick to my guns until I'm proven definitively otherwise. At this point, I have more questions than answers. ;]

It was just a casual question to check if I have a newbie here or someone who only plays the big console titles. ^___^
Thanks, yeah, it's really fun.
Plot holes is such an overused word...let's just call them mysteries, lol. And to be honest I don't see many holes in this construct.
In comparison to Terra/Eraqus/Xehanort, the Ventus/Sora/Roxas-trinity is actually covered good and detailed if one can put together the right elements.
The connection on the other trinity is much more obscure and has less "hook points" to go on.

Hoperfully my long essay gives you some answers this time by putting it all together.
Your main stumbling blocks here are the beliefs that Naminé has Sora's body while she hasn't and that insistence that Ven's heart must remain physically together with Sora's all the time.

@Sephiroth0812
I wonder if the Lingering Will has any sort of tie to the way Japanese people perceive ghosts and stuff? I remember reading about in Shinto belief, after death you seem go on to fulfil different functions, like part of you will become an ancestor guardian spirit, etc etc. But I am just talking out of my ass, you're better off researching it yourself. I might email a friend and ask her on her impressions on the words. Even though Nomura has his own twist on them, as I said before I believe it's helpful to try and learn about where Nomura himself started from and the cultural context he was operating within.

As for 'back to normal', it was 'back to original, back to the way he was' etc etc. I think it implies he has everything he had before, but idk.

And nah, I don't think it makes Kairi able to do it with anyone. I think there has to be a mixture of magic and love. Off the top of my head I can think of Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, Pinocchio, the Little Mermaid... they all include characters where someone else's love is connected to magical form changing or coming back from the 'dead'. I don't really want to go into a Sora/Kairi debate though. Think of it like Geppetto and Pinocchio if it makes you feel any better... lol

And nope, nit-picking is fun :3 I remember ages ago I used to love nitpick-every-sentence-til-you-don't-even-know-what-you're-arguing debates, helped me blow off steam after a crap day at work ;D

That might indeed be possible as it was said that the LS is an assembled armor animated by Terra's thoughts.

Wasn't it so that Nomura mixed several cultural influences together, picking parts from several?

The mythology of the series does still have many unexplained holes indeed, but I tend to believe that is due to the series not being finished.
We may very well get some more info on the soul and probably the mind in later entries.

Going by that however would mean Roxas didn't have to return to Sora in order to give Sora's body back, since Kairi granted him a new one.
Naminé's memory-mess and Ven's injured heart would still be reason enough though to justify having Roxas rejoin with Sora, however bitter it was for him.

You're probably right. Perhaps it only works with heartless who have retained their sense of self.
In the end it is a sort of Deus ex Machina and Sora made probably the shortest sacrifice in the whole series yet, but screw that, it's a fantasy setting after all. ;P

Nitpicking sometimes is interesting, yep, although I admit sometimes part of our community (me included) overdo it. *ggg*

Wait, so if Ven get's his heart back, will Roxas still look like him or no? If he does, is it because he's just a soul now, and doesn't have a physical existence anymore? I have another question, it may be a little off topic, but I felt it would fit in this thread more:
If Roxas had somehow "died", will Sora "die"/cease to exist too? If Roxas is one, then Sora's body and soul is gone.

Roxas isn't just a soul, the soul belongs to Sora.
Roxas does indeed have no physical existence anymore because his physical existence was 1/3 Ven and 2/3 Sora. Allowing him around in this composition would have doomed both Sora and Ventus in the long run.
What is left of Roxas is his mind, sense of self and his own memories, practically his "spriitual" essence which resides inside Sora's heart now.

That's also the reason he still looks like Ven, because to him and any other person who knows him, he just looks like that. This flaky blonde haired kid-appearance is Ven's as well as Roxas's, because he's remembered as looking like this and also sees himself like that.
It was more or less "explained" at the end of KH 2 when Naminé and Roxas spoke with each other while half-transparent:

Naminé: Mmm...it's strange. Roxas: I think I understand. I see myself the way you remember me. And you see yourself the way I remember you.

---


If Roxas had been defeated and faded away, yep, then both Roxas and Sora would be gone and most likely Ven as well.
Why do you think Riku was so adamant on stopping Roxas from storming the Org Castle? Exactly for that reason, Riku didn't have anything against Roxas on a personal level.

 

[Goldpanner]

That might indeed be possible as it was said that the LS is an assembled armor animated by Terra's thoughts.

Wasn't it so that Nomura mixed several cultural influences together, picking parts from several?

The mythology of the series does still have many unexplained holes indeed, but I tend to believe that is due to the series not being finished.

We may very well get some more info on the soul and probably the mind in later entries.

I think it's probably a mix of both the unfinished state, and that suspension of disbelief we're meant to have when we are dealing with magic and fantasy :3

I think ALSO that Nomura has said a few times that he likes to leave things unexplained, so people can fill things in with their own theories and imagination, so that everyone comes away with something different. Usually I see that quote in regards to shipping in FF7 lol but I think it applies here too!

Going by that however would mean Roxas didn't have to return to Sora in order to give Sora's body back, since Kairi granted him a new one.
Naminé's memory-mess and Ven's injured heart would still be reason enough though to justify having Roxas rejoin with Sora, however bitter it was for him.

And that's true!

I mean, in KH2, Namine did say that Roxas 'held half of Sora'

Spoiler Show

Naminé: About a year ago, some things happened, and I had to take apart the memories chained together in Sora's heart. But now... I'm putting them all back exactly the way they were. It's taken me a long time, but pretty soon Sora will be his old self again. The process has been affecting you, too, Roxas.
Roxas: You mean...the dreams?
Naminé: Yes... You and Sora are connected. And...in order for Sora to become completely whole again... He needs you.
Roxas: Me? What for?
Naminé: You hold half of what he is... He needs you, Roxas.

and I think that led people to believe it was something about the physical makeup of Roxas that Sora needed to have returned. I remember people used to debate why exactly Sora could move around just fine with that 'half' missing through CoM.

But, Days stated that it was memories, and they never mention anything but memories, preventing Sora from waking up.

Spoiler Show

DiZ: You seem to be struggling.
Naminé: A Nobody is interfering, I think.
DiZ: A Nobody?
Naminé: I keep trying to piece his memory back together, but what if some of the pieces got lost? There would be no way for me to finish. If that happened--and they found their way into someone else--he'd never get them back.
DiZ: Oh, I think he can do without a memory or two.
Naminé: But what...what if he needs those memories in order to wake up? What if they're the key?

Naminé: Some of Sora's memories are missing.
Riku: How can that be?
Naminé: They're escaping through Sora's Nobody into a third person--and now they're starting to become a part of her.
Riku: You can't get the memories back out.
Naminé: If they're still separate...then yes, I think so. But if they join with her memories, things get a lot more complicated. I would need to untangle her memory before I could finish Sora's... What was supposed to take months might take years. DiZ would be furious.
Riku: So what's the solution?
Naminé: If I try to just jump in and rearrange her memory...then I risk Sora waking up to find out that nobody remembers him anymore. I can't do that to him. It's too late either way. His awakening will have to be delayed. I never imagined Sora's Nobody and the other one would fight so hard to be their own people. Unfortunately, the only real solution...is for them both to go away. Did you know her face was blank at first? Only now can you see someone. That proves some of Sora's memories are inside her. Some inside her, some inside Sora...others inside Sora's Nobody... I can't sort it out anymore. All I can do is pick up the pieces once what has to be done, is done.

Naminé: It's Sora... His memory has stopped.
DiZ: Stopped?
Naminé: Unless something is done, he'll never wake from his slumber.

It's pretty much the point of Days: that the chainlinks of memory Namine busted off inside Sora are draining through the 'other side of Sora's heart' mentioned in CoM, into Roxas, and then from him into Xion, and Namine needs those back to fix her mess. If Namine never screwed with Sora's heart, Roxas probably could have continued to exist alongside Sora just fine (he might have been a bit of a zombie though, depends whether his zombieness was fixed through gaining experiences and memories of his own, or through Sora's).


As for who wields what and how, this thread here is pretty interesting. I reckon it's worth a read, just for the interview quotes and interpretation debates alone :3

 

[gelandporn]

this thread here

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I think it's probably a mix of both the unfinished state, and that suspension of disbelief we're meant to have when we are dealing with magic and fantasy :3

I think ALSO that Nomura has said a few times that he likes to leave things unexplained, so people can fill things in with their own theories and imagination, so that everyone comes away with something different. Usually I see that quote in regards to shipping in FF7 lol but I think it applies here too!

Sounds very much reasonable, then I understand even less why several people keep whining about things that are not outright completely clear...with that mix in action it is supposed to be like that.

Yeah, in fact, that is was Nomura already said in six or seven interviews I think. To some mysteries diverging explanations, interpretations and a form of "headcanon" is expected and encouraged.

And that's true!

I mean, in KH2, Namine did say that Roxas 'held half of Sora'

Spoiler Show

Naminé: About a year ago, some things happened, and I had to take apart the memories chained together in Sora's heart. But now... I'm putting them all back exactly the way they were. It's taken me a long time, but pretty soon Sora will be his old self again. The process has been affecting you, too, Roxas.
Roxas: You mean...the dreams?
Naminé: Yes... You and Sora are connected. And...in order for Sora to become completely whole again... He needs you.
Roxas: Me? What for?
Naminé: You hold half of what he is... He needs you, Roxas.

and I think that led people to believe it was something about the physical makeup of Roxas that Sora needed to have returned. I remember people used to debate why exactly Sora could move around just fine with that 'half' missing through CoM.

But, Days stated that it was memories, and they never mention anything but memories, preventing Sora from waking up.

Spoiler Show

DiZ: You seem to be struggling.
Naminé: A Nobody is interfering, I think.
DiZ: A Nobody?
Naminé: I keep trying to piece his memory back together, but what if some of the pieces got lost? There would be no way for me to finish. If that happened--and they found their way into someone else--he'd never get them back.
DiZ: Oh, I think he can do without a memory or two.
Naminé: But what...what if he needs those memories in order to wake up? What if they're the key?

Naminé: Some of Sora's memories are missing.
Riku: How can that be?
Naminé: They're escaping through Sora's Nobody into a third person--and now they're starting to become a part of her.
Riku: You can't get the memories back out.
Naminé: If they're still separate...then yes, I think so. But if they join with her memories, things get a lot more complicated. I would need to untangle her memory before I could finish Sora's... What was supposed to take months might take years. DiZ would be furious.
Riku: So what's the solution?
Naminé: If I try to just jump in and rearrange her memory...then I risk Sora waking up to find out that nobody remembers him anymore. I can't do that to him. It's too late either way. His awakening will have to be delayed. I never imagined Sora's Nobody and the other one would fight so hard to be their own people. Unfortunately, the only real solution...is for them both to go away. Did you know her face was blank at first? Only now can you see someone. That proves some of Sora's memories are inside her. Some inside her, some inside Sora...others inside Sora's Nobody... I can't sort it out anymore. All I can do is pick up the pieces once what has to be done, is done.

Naminé: It's Sora... His memory has stopped.
DiZ: Stopped?
Naminé: Unless something is done, he'll never wake from his slumber.

It's pretty much the point of Days: that the chainlinks of memory Namine busted off inside Sora are draining through the 'other side of Sora's heart' mentioned in CoM, into Roxas, and then from him into Xion, and Namine needs those back to fix her mess. If Namine never screwed with Sora's heart, Roxas probably could have continued to exist alongside Sora just fine (he might have been a bit of a zombie though, depends whether his zombieness was fixed through gaining experiences and memories of his own, or through Sora's).


As for who wields what and how, this thread here is pretty interesting. I reckon it's worth a read, just for the interview quotes and interpretation debates alone :3

I see, that makes all so much sense, yup.
Also explains Naminé's partly lingering feelings of guilt due to her memory mess.
It also only shows again how utterly important CoM and Naminé's memory manipulation was for the whole series, so many messes and suffering came from that.

Memories are one of the most important elements in the KH-verse. After all, a heart is mostly made up of memories and without them can't really function.

That statement from Naminé after Riku asks "So what's the solution?" is one of my favorite quotes from her in Days. It shows perfectly the actual dilemma in the situation and that Naminé is fully aware of the severity to have to make a choice between two "evils"
(And Ven's heart wasn't even in the equation then).

About Roxas's zombie status that I can directly answer tough, it was compeletely fixed by Roxas slowly developing for himself and creating own memories, forming his independent, own sense of self which also was responsible for his, as Naminé put it, "fighting so hard to be his own person".
Sora's memories didn't start to flow into Roxas until Naminé started her memory-mess in CoM, which was around Day 25 in Days. Roxas had quite a bit developed at this point, due to Axel mentoring him and his interaction with other Org members.

Going by that, I would say if Naminé wouldn't have messed around with Sora's memories, Roxas would have existed just fine alongside Sora, yep. The biggest danger then would probably have been for Ven's heart, as we still know close to nothing about its current state and how Roxas using it to feel affected it.

Nice thread, lol, that was before my time but knowing myself I would also have totally hit into the fact that Roxas is not Ven.
I still fail to see why there's a problem with them looking like twins...I find it personally even amusing, lol.
And their wristbands actually serve to differentiate them:
Roxas: Wristband with thin, black edges.
Ventus: Wristband with thick, white edges.

Not to mention Roxas additionally has those two rings on his fingers.

 

[alexis.anagram]

Well, can you see how 'as I understand it' implies 'from my unobjective Western mindset', which will colour how you interpret the concepts and symbols presented in the game in ways you might not even realise?

You're assuming I'm approaching the game from an non-objective Western mindset. To begin with, I wasn't raised in a traditionally Western family (or, I suppose you could argue, I was raised in a more traditional "western" family, geographically speaking, than you're probably thinking of; regardless, I'm not Japanese, if that's what you're aiming to clarify). Secondly, you're assuming that I'm not taking other perspectives on these matters into account. I am. I'm just primarily concerned with how the elements the story are manifest within the game.

Not to mention, I think the information presented in the games is not objective. I think, the manner and extent to which a concept etc. will be described in a story is part of the context of the culture of the people who wrote it and the audience it was written for. For example, they will assume what they can leave out explaining due to common knowledge, emphasise things they know won't be the dominant reading, and play and twist common conceptions in interesting ways knowing the audience will understand what they are referencing.

But Kingdom Hearts was written for both Western and Eastern audiences. I can see it borrowing Eastern concepts, but I can't see Nomura leaving them unexplained and therefore uninterpretable to anyone who isn't immediately familiar with them.

I won't argue this is a huge factor in general in Kingdom Hearts because it obviously has huge Western influence and input compared to other Japanese games, but if Nomura himself has said Westerners/Disney didn't understand a particular concept (here heart/body/soul), then it's worth keeping in consideration.

He also specifically altered the idea of having Sora's Heart exist before he was born specifically because it was suggested to him that the concept wouldn't follow based on Western thought patterns. I suppose I don't see the correlation between what you're saying, what's occurring within the story and what I'm formulating my arguments based upon. I understand precisely what Nomura has said with relation to the definition of the Soul and Body in Kingdom Hearts and it is from that perspective that I am speculating upon their incorporation into the series.

Besides, it's always interesting to read about other cultures and stuff :3

It is and I do. :3

The point is that in order to have the complete perspective in a discussion on how these elements of a being operate in KH, you necessarily have to consider the influences (Eastern, Western, or anything else). In order to know what they do, you have to understand what they are. In order to understand what they are, it is important to discuss the thought process, the influence that goes into that conception. Otherwise things won't translate well in a cross-cultural story. You're right that a story's concepts should be "rationalized" in the story, but often there are concepts which are based on a certain culture/method of thinking/etc that may be apparent to one group but not to another (eg things being lost in translation).

I think you and goldpanner have both conveyed this message beautifully. I agree. I really have nothing else to say on the matter except perhaps to assure you that I intend to do precisely that.

So for instance, we might have a few Nomura quotes and in-game dialogue on a certain concept, and make our own interpretations (or assumptions) on what these mean but you cannot know whether or not the answer you arrive at is biased/restricted (toward the West or in some other way), until you broaden your perspective and look past what is readily presented before you. I mean, nothing wrong with your own interpretations, and yeah, certainly no one is forcing you to put this much effort into understanding a video game series (anything I've done in this area is scratching the surface at best), but yeah, you should keep that in mind.

I have to disagree somewhat with this assessment, however. While keeping in mind that external influences are relevant, I don't believe that, with regards to Kingdom Hearts, they are overbearing to the extent of forbidding a thorough foreign comprehension of the material. Most of the KH universe is an original construct centered around themes and concepts borrowed from common Disney (hence, Western) story machinations. Nomura has explained the usage of Japanese-influenced concepts to the extent that they are relevant. This is not a story containing analogies and metaphor which require intensive research into another culture in order to ascertain the meaning behind them.

Emotions, thoughts, memories, they have all been shown to be capable of taking on a corporeal form and having physical effects (changing appearance, animating things, etc). That's.... all I was getting at. More abstract concepts like light (not the scientific version) and darkness are given physical form. Soooo, with that in mind, yeah, it is not hard to imagine.

We agree, then.

Ok? And I was just showing you that gp said the same thing and then going on my spiel (I know some of that is not relevant to our discussion, I just wanted to talk about it because I found it interesting).

I was agreeing with you. I suppose it was a bit more roundabout than that, but that's what I was intending to do.

We're talking about the fundamental force at work here, which is love, or friendship, or whatever word you want to use to describe that special bond. And that bond is powerful enough to work miracles. Idk why you would say it's not the same thing when, you know, these stories are all contained in KH. The main story intentionally emulates some of these Disney themes.

Thematically, yes, of course we are. In terms of the function of the story, no, we aren't. Friendship is thematic; light is a functioning story mechanism. Friendship is why; light is how. The Disney stories in KH are all self-contained and have no bearing on its overarching plot devices or the logical coherence of its universe aside from common themes. Ergo, the magic the fairy uses to turn Pinocchio into a real boy does not carry over to the reason why Jack is a walking, talking skeleton which does not carry over to how Kairi brought Sora back from being a Heartless. They are each aspects of the natures of their own respective universes.

And deus ex machina =/= no explanation/rationalization. There can definitely be no explanation and that can help foster the "deus ex machina" effect, but yeah. I mean, I don't know how you can't think that it is, it's Sora being saved by the literal power of love/friendship/etc, that is textbook deus ex machina.

I'm going to commit the ultimate crime and quote Wiki to handle this:

A deus ex machina...is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

...it does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief

I'm not sure about you, but I certainly expected Kairi to save Sora in some way; furthermore, the act functions perfectly within the story's internal logic and therefore does not contradict suspension of disbelief. It was a clearly coordinated story point within the continuity of the game. Furthermore, she didn't save Sora with love and friendship, she saved him with her immense light, which we have already established is a tangible force in the KH universe. You claim I am taking the matter too literally but I would argue that you are consigned to arguing figuratively where there need be little to no confusion. There is symbolism behind the act, yes, but it is, first and foremost, a reasoned event which progresses the plot.

I never implied that Sora's body is a necessary vessel for Ven's heart to reside in. It is where it ended up involuntary.

Neither contradicts the other. My point is simply that Ven's Heart could not exist in Sora's Body without Sora's Heart, whether it would have theoretically remained there voluntarily or not.

As for Point A): Ven's heart was affected by the Keyblade of Hearts indirectly. The keyblade unlocked Sora's heart (not Kairi's, nor Ven's, because they were inside Sora's heart).

How was it affected? Kairi's Heart wouldn't have been affected because it's a pure Heart of light and, as you clarified, the Keyblade of Hearts unlocks the darkness in people's Hearts. We don't know what happened to Ven's Heart because it remained with Sora's and, if it's a pure Heart of light still, the Keyblade of Hearts wouldn't have affected it any more than it did Kairi's. My point was that it would have still been released, which is supported by two facts:
A) It was inside Sora's Heart, which was released.
B) So was Kairi's, and Kairi's was released.
You speculate that it would have been kicked out of Sora's Heart once the darkness took over, but that doesn't make sense. Ven's Heart would have been more vulnerable to the darkness and more easily consumed-- unless it was pure Heart of light, in which case the darkness would hold no threat for it.

Sora's heart got overtaken by its darkness in the process, Kairi's heart fled back into her body, Ven's heart was left behind because it sleeps and can't function fully.

How does Ven's Heart being asleep mean it wouldn't be released by the same process Sora's Heart and Kairi's Heart were?

As I said, it has nothing to do with the Keyblade of Hearts, it only unlocked Sora's heart which in turn got overtaken by darkness, kicking both Kairi's and Ven's heart out and then Sora's and Kairi's hearts left Sora's body, giving birth to Roxas and Naminé.
The keyblade of hearts doesn't release hearts, it only unlocks them and exposes them to their own darkness.

Except that Sora's Heart didn't "kick" Kairi's Heart out, Kairi's Heart left Sora's to rejoin with her Body of its own will, something Ven's Heart couldn't have done because it wasn't conscious and had no will.

Yes, Roxas has, in essence, all parts to be a full person, but these parts aren't his, that's what makes the difference.

Yes, I grasp this. That doesn't mean he isn't an incomplete being, only that he is a composite (but complete) being of other people. It's not an important point, though, so I won't argue it further.

No, he would not and cannot have Ven's memories nor take on his "sense of self" because exactly this sense of self, the being that is "Ventus" is asleep and inactive. Ven's memories are sealed away as well as his keyblade because his heart is still damaged, just not as severe as it was when he sought out Sora at the end of BBS.

Fair enough.

The heart has recuperated to a point where it could be sustained without having to be directly in Sora's heart, but still not enough to function properly again. Just like during the 4year-gap between BBS-Prologue and BBS (I get on that also a few paragraphs later).

But Ven's Heart never stopped needing Sora's light during that 4-year gap. In fact, in order for Ven's Heart to survive, it continued relying on Sora's light through the end of BBS and may well be relying on it now, provided Vanitas hasn't rejoined with him and completed his Heart.

Naminé was born using Sora's body and soul as an intermediary,

That doesn't mean or explain anything.

explaining why she's slightly influenced by Ven (hair), but Sora's body itself was alone kept by Roxas.

...I'm going to let you finish, but...

Naminé is, as observed by Ansem the Wise, a total paradox, she has no body, no soul and (apparently) no heart, yet she still exists.
That's one of the biggest points and mysteries about Naminé, Sora's body wasn't "shared"

This is, as far as we know, technically not true. I think I may know why you follow this logic, and unless you're referring to information I don't have, I'll try to explain why I believe Namine does indeed share Sora's Body.

I'm presuming the information you have comes from the Secret Ansem Reports (because you quote Ansem the Wise). Here is what Ansem actually writes:

from Report 9;

Kairi produced no Heartless, and instead of vanishing, her body remained in the realm of light. In other words, both the Nobody called Naminé and the Heartless—proof of a lost heart—are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to produce a Nobody.

So, yes, at this point, Ansem is speculating that Namine does not have a Body. However, he has only just started researching her. Later on, he arrives at a separate conclusion:

from Report 10:

I have arrived at a hypothesis. I believe that Naminé was born as a special type of Nobody when Sora attacked himself with the Keyblade, causing his and Kairi's hearts to leave their bodies simultaneously. Naminé emerged as Kairi's Nobody...but the body and soul necessary to exist as a Nobody belonged to Sora.

He capitulates on his stance that Namine does not have a Body and instead infers that she borrowed the Body and Soul of Sora, just as Roxas did. Essentially, he changed his mind. This is further inferred in Ansem Report 12:

Naminé is Kairi's Nobody, but came into being via Sora's body and soul.

So, unless you have definitive evidence that Sora's Body was not shared, the indication is that it was, in fact.

But that's exactly the point, Roxas was born from Sora's heart and didn't look exactly like Sora only with blonde hair because Ven's heart remained with him. It was there and influenced the shape of Sora's body because it was the only heart left in the vessel.

Again, this logic is only consistent presuming Namine didn't share Ven's Heart.

I will clear this up in short order with the interview bits as you apparently can't see it clearly enough from in-game stuff because you insist on Ven's heart having to remain with Sora's which is in this case, as I pointed out, not only impossible but also unneccessary.

Yay!

You don't get my point. Roxas could wield two keyblades later because he was connected to Sora's heart through their link and had Ven's heart with him.
If Roxas didn't have Ven's heart inside him he could not have wielded any keyblade at all, because a heart must be physically present in order to summon and wield the keyblade.

We don't know that, in the event of a Nobody's Somebody existing simultaneously alongside them, that rule could not be circumvented. Besides, that still doesn't make sense as to how he could wield two Keyblades. If a Heart must be present and only Ven's Heart was in his Body, he could only wield one; if a Keyblade can be wielded essentially by proxy, then Ven's Heart doesn't have to be in his Body at all. It doesn't make any sense that you have to have a Heart to wield one Keyblade, but you can wield two as long as you're merely connected to another Heart.

but basically you need a “heart” to be able to wield one.

That doesn't specify "carrying" a Heart or having it present within your Body. It only states that you need one. Roxas would have had a connection to Sora regardless. Sora's Heart is his Heart; a missing puzzle piece. That may have constituted a legitimate proxy.

I can’t say more than that, since it would go into whether or not Roxas has a heart.

So he's saying that he won't say whether Roxas has a Heart for the time being. That isn't confirmation of anything. :/

The first bolded part practically spills it out already:
The second keyblade (Ven's) was awakened within Roxas, meaning from Ven's heart inside Roxas.
When Xion "died" and was absorbed, Roxas had an emotional breakdown which was so hard he shortly gained full access to Ven's injured heart, activating/pulling out Ven's keyblade.

That's not what that means. Roxas was wielding Xion's, not Ven's, Keyblade at the end of Days. When she disappeared, Xion was absorbed into Roxas and her ability to wield the Keyblade was awakened within him. The question even specifies "Xion's Keyblade" and Nomura responds definitively that Roxas inherited her Keyblade.

Ven's heart wasn't "restored" with Vanitas because it didn't need to be. What happened was that Ventus destroyed Vanitas, finally ending the forced fusion between their hearts which he never wanted, evidenced by Vanitas fading and the reformed platform not showing any trace of Vanitas anymore in contrast to the earlier one where Van's invading heart made up half of the platform. Ventus repelled Vanitas's attempted invasion and with the X-blade destroyed him as well.

I've already discussed this elsewhere, but I'm confident this isn't what happened. Ven's Station of Awakening alters in appearance after Vanitas is destroyed, indicating that Ven's Heart has been fully restored, which could only happen if Vanitas rejoined with him. The only reason Vanitas's image was present on the Station of Awakening during their battle was because it was a contest of wills to see who would dominate the Heart and take over; if Vanitas had won, then all traces of Ven from the Station of Awakening would have been erased. Keep in mind that Vanitas was not present on Ven's Station of Awakening at the beginning of the game, when his Heart belonged completely to him, nor at any point in the game prior to their last battle, when Vanitas's Heart was separate. Once they fused, the Heart was going to belong to one of them completely again; the battle was simply to decide who that would be. Vanitas would have completed the X-Blade. Ven won and chose not to. Either way, one of them was always going to be absorbed into the other at the end of that battle.

Both is wrong at the specific time period in KH 1. During the 10 years that passed, Ven's heart indeed needed to be fully inside Sora's, because only there it could start to recuperate with indirect help from Sora.
When the time came where Sora made the sacrifice though, the recuperation was already advanced enough for Ven's injured heart so that the connection was now sufficient enough again to at least "hold the current state". If Ven's heart could slowly recuperate more while with Roxas is subject to debate, but I would assume it may be possible as well due to the connection with Sora's heart which is still very deep, only slower.
Yeah, Ven needs Sora's heart, but as I pointed out above now, by the time Roxas was born the heart-connection was already sufficient again.

But Ven's Heart didn't have that connection during the time that Sora was a Heartless. His light went out and that would have caused Ven's Heart to collapse. You're simply conforming the strengths and weaknesses of Ven's Heart to match your argument, which doesn't support your speculation.

Even better, I give you the snippets in question, it's from the BBS Ultimania and proves not only that Roxas had a heart but also that it was Ven's:

Spoiler Show

Q1: Why do Roxas and Ventus look alike?
A: Because inside Sora, which is Roxas’ body, is Ventus’ heart.

As was shown in the opening to BbS and the ending to Last Episode, Sora and Ventus’ heart are linked (P.646). And so Roxas, who is a part of Sora, was affected by that and looks just like Ventus.

Q3: Is it possible that Roxas has a heart?
A: It is thought that it could be Ventus’ heart.

In KHII FM there were clues to him having a heart, and in Days we saw Roxas crying--proof that he could have a heart. As was said in Q1, he has taken a lot of himself from Ventus. But perhaps when Sora and Roxas were separated, Ventus’ heart stayed in Roxas?

These are questions from the series which seem likely or plausible. The first answer is not a confirmation that Roxas has Ven's Heart; it's simply explaining why Roxas looks like Ven, which is because of his connection with Sora, who has Ven's Heart in his Body, which also serves as Roxas's Body. It is not specifically stating that Roxas has Ven's Heart, or else it wouldn't wonder later on whether or not Roxas might have Ven's Heart.

When Sora touched Ven's heart in the Prologue of BBS he didn't repair it, he only prevented it from fading away and, in your own words, turned the state of "disrepair" into one of "repairable".

No, he repaired it. He used his light to temporarily "fill in" the part of Ven's Heart that was broken. Ven's Heart never repaired itself from that fragmenting; it couldn't. That would literally mean that it would have permanently filled in the part where Vanitas's darkness is supposed to go, meaning Vanitas could not return to Ven's Heart, meaning their Hearts could not fuse, which they did.

It is true that Ven's heart can't heal by itself, but in conjunction with other hearts.
With the first injury it was not Sora's alone though.
Ventus's heart was still injured to a degree after Sora's newborn saved him and helped him to awake, not heal him fully, as his eyes were still blank and he was only semi-conscious.
When Master Xehanort then took him back to keyblade graveyard he was totally helpless when Vanitas started to physically abuse him and beat him up.
After that, when MX decided to give him to Eraqus because he couldn't train them both we see Ven's still pitiful state in the flashback where he first meets Terra and Aqua and goes comatose under their questions because of his sealed away memories (the heart is still damaged).
Over the course of the 4 years between Prologue and BBS Terra, Aqua and Eraqus care for Ven and nurse him slowly back to health, his heart is formed again as confirmed by Nomura:

Spoiler Show

-- Ventus awakens with Sora's help, but at first his eyes are blank, and when he first meets Terra and Aqua he falls asleep under their barrage of questions.

Nomura: At that time, although Ventus has awakened, his heart is not fully formed. The imagery is the same as the first week after Roxas entered the organisation in "KH Days", when he was spacing out.

No. Ven was still recuperating from having his Heart damaged so heavily, even though it was repaired. It's like slowly recovering from a bad illness, even though the illness itself has left. Ven's Heart still needed to recuperate because it was still weak after the trauma it underwent. The fact that Ven doesn't remember anything isn't proof of his Heart's status: this is actually proven by the fact that, even after he recovers from the comatose state, he doesn't remember any of the events that occurred. At that point, his Heart is strong again (still patched with Sora's light), but the memories continue to be painful to him because the wound became like a scar which flared up when those memories arose. The quote from Nomura doesn't contradict this: Ven's Heart wasn't fully formed when he was taken to live with Eraqus. It couldn't be fully formed until it rejoined with Vanitas, because Vanitas was the missing link necessary to reform his Heart completely.

You seem to forget that for the forging of the x-blade two hearts are needed. Vanitas has his own heart. In the BBS Novels it even gets decribed as a newborn heart.
Vanitas doesn't need Ven to survive and vice versa.
The main reason Ven's heart was in such a bad shape were MX's brutal methods and the fact Ven's heart was already weakened from heartless-attacks.

I never said Vanitas required Ven to survive or vice versa. However, both were incomplete without the other: Vanitas is Ven's darkness, Ven is Vanitas's light. They aren't naturally occurring separate, pure beings, they're one person's Heart split into two portions.

In the end of BBS Ven rejected Vanitas, remember?

No. He rejected Vanitas's insistence that they should form the X-Blade. He said, "How about I destroy you both?" By destroying Vanitas, Ven's Heart should have been completed. By destroying the X-Blade, Ven's Heart was shattered.

Totally correct, and you are also correct with saying that then Ven's heart needed to fully rely on Sora's heart and remain with it.
The only step remaining now is taking the things (and the interview snippet) above and apply them to Ven's more grave wounds and the longer time period until Sora stabbed himself.

But there's no evidence that Ven's Heart ever healed itself, so this isn't a logical process.

Say connected with a heart corrupted by darkness and we are there where I want to be.
Ven's heart is in Roxas, still injured enough to not function properly, but not so much that it needs to be inside Sora's the whole time.

Again, you're working the strengths of the Heart to your advantage and then claiming it's too weak when it works in your favor as well. Strong enough to support itself, too weak to be released. To begin with, it couldn't support itself if it wasn't conscious, which is your argument as to why it wouldn't have been released.

It doesn't have to be sustained on a longer peroid because the connection between the hearts is still intact, it still depends on Sora's heart, but not anymore from inside of it, get it with all the stuff from above? ^___^

I'm still not totally convinced, surprisingly. I still think you're most likely right, in the end, I just don't believe there's hard evidence to confirm it yet.

That depends on how you define "existence", in terms of the spiritual/metaphysical layer you're absolutely correct, Roxas is a completely new, independent existence that developed/evolved over time, as his mind, sense of self and memories are uniquely his own.
In terms of the physical layer and his actual composition as a "person" though he's a Ven-Sora hybrid (2/3 Sora and 1/3 Ven).

Provided he has Ven's Heart.

Thanks, yeah, it's really fun..

I agree! Fun, fun, fun. :3

Hoperfully my long essay gives you some answers this time by putting it all together.

Well, I certainly appreciate the interview material, although it wasn't as definitive as I had hoped. And thanks for a good debate, on the whole! :3

 

[DropDistance]

Wait, so if Roxas had to give Ven's heart back, would he still be able to feel emotions or no, since the source of his emotions is gone?