Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.
That is literally one of the biggest problems (or mysteries) Nomura gave us with the thirteen seekers. For the seven lights, we have actually too many candidates and we don't know yet who in the end it will be while for the thirteen it seems we have too few right now.
1. Master Xehanort
2. Xemnas
3. Ansem SoD
4. Xigbar
7. Saix
12. Young Xehanort
are the only truly confirmed members.
a version of Riku (either past or the Replica) and Vanitas are highly probable, but that also only brings us up to eight.
A version of Terra-Xehanort (Terra controlled against his will) is also highly hinted at, which would make nine, still leaving four seats vacant.
From the old Org members, Ienzo and Aeleus are shown to have been "switched sides" or at least don't follow MX anymore. Even and Dilan are said to be still "unstable" (Xaldin had the pointed ears while Vexen was in charge of the Replica project) so they are an either-or possibility.
Out of the others Luxord is the most likely to be another darkness simply because he was the last one together with Saix you had to fight before reaching Xemnas in KH 2. Marluxia and Larxene were sent to Castle Oblivion specifically because they were deemed as unfit and as "Traitors" much like Axel and Roxas would be later on.
So, even if we count Even, Dilan and Luxord, there would still be one seat left, and the only other possibility would be Demyx...out of all people that useless twit who's too lazy to even lift a finger? I can't imagine why Xehanort would want that guy to be in his cohort...that's like as if he would include Pete.
Then still though, who's still there that could be used? Eraqus against his will? Pretty farfetched considering not only is his heart within Terra's, but also considering that his body got destroyed by MX and Xehanort needs bodies to control as his puppets, not hearts. If a heart is already in that body he tries to subdue and enslave it, but a heart alone without a body is useless for Xehanort's purposes.
Ansem the Wise? Like Naminé has not really shown any combat abilities and sits in the RoD without memory right now.
I am not totally opposed on "dropping" (or sidelining) characters for an extended amount of time if the plot can justify it (and makes it even better if those characters can come back later), but that should be done with characters who are already developed far enough so that they don't need excessive amount of screentime anymore. Well developed characters can "endure" a break from spotlight better than underdeveloped ones do.
It would definitely make the characters we already have more worthwhile, instead of introducing even more characters to add to the heap of half-developed people.
Who's more interesting is also always a matter of personal taste, yet objectively spoken Larxene is effectively only Marluxia's henchwoman, who is himself only a "filler" villain. What they forced Naminé to do, and the consequences of those actions, impact the story in fact way more than their actual goal. What was their goal again? Taking over the Organisation? Yea? And then? There wasn't really any elaboration on why they even wanted all this beyond simple greed for power.
But I digress, our original topic was the overall significance of them to the series' plot, and while they do have more significance in CoM and are in general more important than both Luxord and Demyx, they are still far cry from actual major characters throughout the entire series.
For Maleficent one has to give her also the props in KH 2 that she was awfully short on resources, especially with Saix and Xemnas often taking the few stuff she had left as well.
Yeah it definitely is one of the biggest mysteries left for us to solve, I’m sure it’s solvable though. We currently have 4 slots we really don’t have any real hints about. I’d actually have to agree with Roxas1563 that
Venitas could possibly be one of the missing 4, afterall he very much like Terranort or Rikunort in a sense. Though I don’t think he’s number 13 as he’d probably already be included before they attempted to take over sora’s body. I think it’s actually possible that 13 will be a new character that could play a role in the next Saga.
I actually can’t see Luxord fill that kind of role, he didn’t strike me as being one to do this kind of thing and showed no signs of Xehanortification. Also he was kept out of the loop just as much as the others that would have been taken over. The fact that he was one of last could hint at it, but I’m still not expecting him to be one it just doesn’t fit with how I see the character.
From what I got, Saix had intended for all of them to be eliminated, so I’m not so sure about any of the CO members to be included, though I think we can’t really exclude Even completely.
I’d actually rank Pete higher than Demyx sas he at least manages to accomplish some things and isn’t lazy just somewhat incompetent which hopefully will change in the future.
The choice out side of the Org members is even more limited for one because there aren’t a lot of original characters and some of them haven’t been shown to be able to fight. Which rises the question should Disney and Final Fantasy characters be completely left out as possible candidates?
I don’t think the characters need to be well fleshed out to be sidelined and come back, e.g. if Laxene would show up for the next few games and then in KH5 or a unnumbered title of the next saga made a big appearance as a important character and go developed better that would work too. In other words you can easily save developing other minor characters for later in the series in favor of developing the main characters as well. But yes characters that are well developed to stand the test of time better.
Yes it really is a matter of taste, but I kind of feel like she was better developed as a character than he was. I wonder if we’ll ever learn why exactly they wanted to take over the Org and what they hoped to gain from doing so, I do hope it was a little more than just wanting to have more power.
They are definitely not major players in the whole scheme of things, but they are some of the more meaningful original Organisation members.
She did manage quite well considering the circumstances, but I do feel she could have done better.
Yep, but the little screentime he had was worthwhile. Luxord is to a certain extent "classy" and it seems that he does amoral things not because he actively likes to see other people suffer (like Xehanort or Larxene) but more like because he likes to play games with high bets where ethic and moralistic concerns would only cheapen or hinder the challenge. With a bit more development and more focus I could imagine Luxord becoming something similar to a mix of Setzer (from the original FF VI, not the KH version) and David Xanatos from Gargoyles.
Good to know, lol. It's also not that I hate the character, I'm just personally annoyed by his way too overblown/overdramatic personality (as you say) and don't understand why so many fans put so much emphasis on this useless twit. He's not only the most insignificant Organisation member of all, but also emphasizes something of a freeloader and lazy ass, always looking to dump his own tasks on others and even leaves Roxas alone to fend for himself on missions because "work means sweating", man, goddamn sissy, do you need your manicure or what? Normally I have no problems with some characters acting "girly" or more sensitive, but that guy is way overdoing it and combined with his other traits I just find him a waste of time.
That said, I wouldn't go into rage-mode or bitch if he gets a scene in future KH titles, but I also won't be missing anything if Nomura decides to leave that nincompoop out. Out of all the underdeveloped characters he is certainly the one I am interested in the very least.
That's exactly what annoys me the most, the constant downplaying of the shit the Organisation pulled, but that's not only the case with the Organisation alone. Many people who are fans of the villains tend to handwave the suffering and misery they caused in order to swoon over their (allegedly) "oh so saaad" backstory and how they must be forgiven, pitied, pandered and met with understanding even if they show zero remorse or acknowledgement of the crap they pulled. It's like flipping the table on who's victim and who's culprit on purpose.
I can understand more sympathetic notions towards individuals who show that they truly feel bad for what they've done and actively try to make up for it, like DiZ/Ansem the Wise does. I won't deny that I absolutely despise his actions during Days and the KH 2 Prologue, but Ansem has shown more than once now that he truly greatly regrets this and tries to make amends even if he cannot ever take away the pain he caused completely.
Riku is on the same boat, but I have yet to see anyone else of the "true" villains to show any remorse. Not anyone of the direct "Xehanorts", nor Xigbar, Saix, Vanitas or anyone else of the members of the Original Org except Lea.
Xehanort trying to pull a trick with playing the remorseful I can actually see him playing easier than him truly feeling it. This fits better with Xehanort's character and his fixation on his own importance and disregard for other hearts.
Xemnas tried that as well already, lol, and Sora didn't buy it then, so I doubt it would be much different here.
An outcome like that would surely create some tension, especially when Xehanort pulls even more crap in KH 3 which causes even more pain and suffering in the short term. The only fitting result with Xehanort being "forgiven" and let go would be if he's stripped of any power he ever had and condemned to make up for his crap the rest of his life, although that would leave us still with the problem that he's still around, therefore really withholding closure.
Well, there are several fans out there who will readily tell you that Xion's entire character is in the end just a mixed carbon copy of Roxas' and Riku Replica's suffering from the get go with a gender swap to mix things up a little.
In the end though, even when TAV and NRX are looked at individually and the circumstances of their suffering varies, they have all in common that they are all in pain and unable to proper exist atm. Roxas, Xion and Naminé lack a physical existence as a whole, Ventus' heart is injured and dislocated from its rightful place, Aqua is trapped inside the RoD and Terra inside his own body/Xehanort's darkness.
The only case one could make against Naminé is that she didn't stand up to Marluxia and Larxene from the beginning and refuse to alter Sora's memories (later when Marluxia ordered her to erase Sora's memories she did resist and was willing to disappear for her defiance), but at that time not only did she feel incredibly lonely and longed desperately for a friend, she also didn't know just how grave the consequences of this memory meddling would be. Right before Sora, Donald and Goofy go to sleep she tells them with confidence that she will be able to put their memories back together even if it takes some time. She didn't expect there so many complications coming up, which she also discussed with Riku in a scene during Days.
Manipulating Sora's memories and "experimenting" with the Keyblade hero was within the original plan of the Organisation (ergo Xehanort's), as the Days Ultimania shows:
They originally planned to use both Roxas and Sora, so in the end Xehanort is again responsible, as without him planning the whole stuff Naminé would not have needed to restore Sora's memories and destroy Roxas' and Xion's existences in the process, nor would DiZ have needed to put on pressure to hurry up because time was running short nor would Marluxia have been able to hijack the original Castle Oblivion plan for his rebellion.
It is pointless. The point is that they all suffer, to say that, i.e. "but Aqua is suffering more than the others" is just bland favoritism and trying to put one of the suffering characters over the others, as if saying X is hurting more than Y makes the pain of X somehow more "legit" than the pain of Y or that Y doesn't "deserve" to be saved because he/she suffers "less" than X.
That Xion is received better by those who started out with Days is not that surprising, it's the same with those who didn't start with KH 1. Most who did start out with the first game tend to be way more critical and/or unforgiving with the later entries than fans who jumped in midway.
With the HD Remixes we're going to get a whole new type of KH fans into the fold, that's going to be very interesting and it can become pretty awesome if the majority of the older fans does not behave like an elitist group and berates new fans just because they see Days as an integral part of the story from the beginning or anything similar directed at an entry in the series (when the second HD Remix is out) that isn't the first title.
I am completely honest when I say that sometimes I get so fed up that I really wish all those who needlessly bash the development of the series would just take their dearly beloved perfect KH 1, treat it as a stand-alone title and ignore the rest if it bothers them this much.
It was a rough concept already, yes, and Nomura has stated that he has the general framework of the story already complete. Fleshing it out to complete story status though happens gradually, as i.e. if someone says that Ventus wasn't thought of by the time of KH 2 that's a lie, Nomura already thought of TAV while working on KH2, the only thing he wasn't yet sure about if Ventus should look like Sora or Roxas, but even that decision was made when KH2 Final Mix came around.
On the other hand though it wonders me anyways that some people keep bitching at Nomura that he hasn't everything planned out. NO big story that goes over several volumes is 100% planned out from the start, and in actuality when you look at the Director's Secret Report and other supplementary material from KH 2, Days, Coded and BBS, pretty much of the stuff revealed in DDD (except the time travel) was actually foreshadowed and hinted at before.
Heh, I've imported quite some books from the US already, and it wasn't that expensive. Now importing the 10th Anniversary Fan Selection Soundtrack from Japan was expensive due to stupid EU customs and taxes.
I could definitely see Luxord develop into the role of an amoral character, who would help Sora and Co. in certain occasion and play against them in others.
Yeah Demyx’ overblown personality is quite annoying and with girly I didn’t really mean his personality or the way he acted, seeing I’d describe it more as cowardly and wimpy, but the way he looks, there’s just something very feminine about it and I think that appeals to some people.
I wouldn’t be thrilled if they included him again, but yeah I wouldn’t start complaining all over the internet that they included him.
A sad backstory is no excuse for what they do, most heroes actually tend to have just as sad backstories as the Villains and they aren’t doing all these terrible things.
I think sympathizing with a villain is fine as long as people don’t forget that they’ve done terrible things with no real remorse and that no matter what happened to them it rarely justifies their deeds. It’s important to know even if they have an understandable motive that their means is wrong and they need to be stopped.
I wouldn’t really consider DiZ a real villain to begin with he seems more like an anti-villain (Type 3) to me and Riku only really did questionable thing in KH and even then he was also more an anti-villain or anti-hero than an actual villain. Anyways, yes it’s important for a character to show remorse and regret, as well as actively try and undo the harm they’ve caused otherwise it wouldn’t really be justified to forgive them.
If Xehanort would ask for forgiveness it would definitely be a ruse and not sincere. I don’t see them falling for it, even if Sora were to fall for it this time I don’t think Riku or any of the others would.
Well depending on how it’s done it, they could actually leave him alive without forgiving him. He would just have to suffer his own fate worse than death, which I’d feel would give us just as much closure and also be a fitting end to him.
I would have to disagree with those fans, seeing she had a lot more conflict than just a mix of those two.
There’s no denying that they each are suffering and that in certain ways they’re sufferings are similar and yet very different in others.
Like I said she was a victim of her circumstances, the fact that she was lonely probably did have was the reason she didn’t have the strength to stand up until she met Sora and finally had a friend which gave her the strength to stand up to Marluxia and Larxene.
She couldn’t have known about the memories leaking through Roxas, she probably didn’t even know of his existence until later on, after all I don’t imagine them telling her to much.
Well it does seem like there was more of a reason to send the members to CO. I also think it’s interesting how initially they seemed to have wanted to get 3 keyblade wielders as Xion had already been created before the whole CO event took place.
Well we know that Xehanort is really behind most of what’s going wrong so it’s no surprise that he’s also behind the memory mess.
Agreed.
Well when you enter a series can have an influence on how one views the things in the series, but it also has a lot to do with the individual seeing I started with the first game and don’t really think the other entries are bad, in fact BBS has become my favorite entry in the series. Though I have to admit that there are certain thing that they haven’t done since the first entry that I’d like to have make a return, such as the dalmatian sidequest and the trinities symbols.
I really hope they are accepted without people feeling the need to play elitist or try to convince them that this and that about the series isn’t good.
I agree that people that really think the series has gotten terrible after KH1 should give it a rest.
It’s quite likely that Nomura actually has a rough Idea of most of the KH story, especially the untold events that happened within the year the story takes place and where it’ll lead to in the next saga. I just think it’s sad that he didn’t even slightly allude to Xion in KH2FM, seeing by then they probably had developed the story and by extension her character far enough to throw something little in.
It’s would be weird to have a completely planned out story for a saga that’s told over a 10 years time span and that could get an offer for an additional entry at any given time.
Most things in DDD were alluded to or appeared in another form before, even time travel was know to be possible since though the rules and method used changed in DDD.
Well the things I import over amazon tend to cost twice as much as they would for people ordering in the US.
Oh, I didn't even know yet that you read it, lol.
It of course also depends on the scope of the written word in question. Material such as Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter is pretty heavy on stuff that's covered so that even over-length films cannot grasp the whole thing (like LotR) or they need to make two movies for one book (like the last Harry Potter) in order to not leave out too much important stuff. In the earlier Potter-films it also shows that they have dumped much of the material from the book.
Video Games may however have it even worse in that regard because you need to dedicate much space to gameplay, flashy effects and gimmicks like Multiplayer.
The guides we get around here are also often dedicated to be as "spoiler-free" as possible while the Ultimanias go actually more in-depth about the story. I guess that's just a different weighing of priorities between the west and Japan.
Lol yeah, that's actually describing Evangelion spot-on, as it can and does scare off new readers/viewers, but also hooks up some more who see it as a challenge to actually get into the material. I am also pretty confident that, compared to Evangelion, KH is actually one if not two levels easier in terms of mind screw. Both are surely not lightweight titles at all, but EVA still outperforms KH, as does Metal Gear Solid most likely (I didn't follow MGS that closely).
I don't think we'll going to lose Nomura that fast, lol.
I’m reading it at the moment, I’ve pretty much caught up now, only have the last chapter to read, which I’ll probably do tonight.
Well the disadvantage of a film and game is also that they cost a lot to make, so they have to cater more to the mainstream audience and have to do things they probably don’t necessarily want but have to. In the movies case that usually means adapting an already successful book, comic or franchise, which usually results in them having to dump it down a little. I think the movie could probably shine the best if it was telling a story made for it’s format, I think that’s one of the reasons star wars is so successful.
In the videogames case they need to include gimmicks and other things, which usually results in subtracting from their story to apiece the gamers and make a good provide for their companies.
The differences between the mentalities of these two areas are quite interesting.
Honestly I think that a combination of the two would probably be the best, having the actual gameplay guide part be more or less spoiler free and the information part full of spoilers.
I can really imagine stories that are complex and have mind screws in them having these effects on people.
That series does seem like a very interesting story from what I’ve heard so far, if I ever get the time to watch it I probably will.
I hope not.
Well, that's their own fault then for taking an interpreted headcanon already as canon in a still ongoing work. If a story isn't finished yet you have to expect new developments that may expand on already known facts. Assuming that Nobodies don't have hearts is in fact still true, even the glossary in DDD still says that. That they can grew a new heart however wasn't known so far and kept secret by Xemnas, Xehanort and Xigbar (Ansem the Wise found out, but refused to believe it until later when his machine overloads in KH2). As you say though, there were enough hints already towards this during the whole series, heck, when Axel says "Hey, I'm enjoying this." in Chain of Memories he actually puts his hand on his chest where the heart would be, the subtle foreshadowing is everywhere.
I guess the question which Org members actually did develop a heart besides Axel, Xemnas, Naminé and Roxas will spark many debates.
That's what I said, three special cases (Xemnas, Naminé and Roxas) as well as one Replica (Xion). Replicas already have a heart as shown with Replica Riku, so out of the five "confirmed" Lea/Axel is actually the only one who could be considered a "normal" case.
Yep, they fooled practically everyone with it and it is another testament to Xehanort's manipulative powers and charisma (which Xemnas inherited quite a bunch of) that they managed to figuratively brainwash people for so long and let the other Org members keep denying their own selves.
Indeed, Xehanort would want something unripe there in order to keep the body stable and to have something for his heart seed to take over, but nothing more than a husk would be needed for that, any nurturing that goes too far would be counterproductive as it would increase resistance to Xehanort's control.
That's also why Young Xehanort described Roxas as a worthy candidate originally. In his "Zombie"-mode without any true sense of self shortly after being born he would have been easy prey for Xehanort's plan.
Now that's a bit extreme, lol.
But I agree that it can hinge heavily on the art-style in question.
It would be already a good help if Nomura does not spread out the story of the next saga as much as he did with this one. If they really have to go more consoles again, they should decide on one handheld and one home console and then stick with it.
If we go by the premise not only having character interaction between themselves but also with Sora, having them as party members would be the best bet as I cannot really see Sora as a party member in another characters party (except if they would go full player control so that you can even choose who will be your party leader and main controllable character).
Vanitas' role might be more active in the one game we saw him so far than Kairi had in several games, yes, and we get a more clear glimpse on his personality, but Kairi got parts of this as well in KH 1 and 2. Otherwise they've been handled pretty similar, which is actually another proof on how wrongly Kairi was handled, as she's a supposed main character like Riku and Sora or TAV, while Vanitas is in essence "only" a supporting major antagonist like Xigbar (main antagonist is Xehanort, and for KH 1 and 2 Ansem and Xemnas).
That would probaly not sit well with many male fans, the "bad" or "uncaring" label being associated mainly with the male sex and the opposite with the female. Having Ventus as the exact opposite of Vanitas actually shows of this effect better with using the same gender, proving that the gender actually doesn't matter.
I also remember that there were some fans who stated that they were even somewhat unhappy that all the pure hearts of light are female, indirectly indicating the male sex of being incapable of purity, which was why they welcomed Ventus as a contrasting example even if it was made artificially.
That being said, Larxene and Maleficent are both female, but already adults. It would be neat to have an "evil"/bad character around who is female and actually around Kairi's or Xion's age (without being just another "clone") of them.
Exactly, some more humility would work wonders around some parts of fandoms, not only in KH.
Headcanon is something tricky, If too many people agree on a headcanon it sometimes gets hard to distinguish it from actual canon. I even sometimes have to question whether somethings are actual canon or just headcanon that’s been so accepted by the fandom that it almost feels like it’s canon.
Though the heart thing was kind of too strongly hinted at in the series to not have been at least considered and I think most did think that it would be possible after days.
It probably could.
Hm, if you think about it Xigbar and Saix probably also already had hearts in them, though I guess that they too could be considered special because it’s not their own.
It was definitely a well executed deception, which I think we can kind of expect from Xehanort and his various incarnations by now.
Well Xemnas did say that the creation was an attempted to get the body to reject a sense of self, so I guess his ideal Nobody would be a lot like Roxas was in his early days, would make taking over the body be a lot easier. I’d also guess that the Replica project on some level served a similar goal.
Yes it is and it does heavily depend on the art style.
Personally I’d like the series to stick with the Sony home consoles and the Nintendo handhelds, though I wouldn’t mind if they chose the Sony handhelds seeing they tend to be more powerful and generally kind of better imo. I’d also like to have two to three unnumbered title pre Saga for the handhelds, I really enjoy getting to play the Kingdom Hearts games on the train ride to work or home.
I could actually see him as a party member of anothers team, if the story was mainly about the other character and their journey and Sora would join them for a certain time period or just a fight.
There’s plenty of proof of how poorly Kairi has been handled in the series so far.
In my opinion the problem isn’t that there isn’t enough female villains but that there are too few female characters in the series in general, sure DDD kind of explained why the Organisation mainly consisted out of men, but still we have an extremely uneven ration between the genders. I’m all for an evil teen girl character, especially if she’s as psycho as Vanitas or Larxene, I love villains like that.
Not just in fandoms, people in general should start showing a little more humility.
I can see where this comes from, and I would definitely not say no to this, although I personally certainly treat this as a "nice-to-have", not a "must-to-have". It would be neat if they address this, but I don't feel it as being high in the priority list considering some more glaring flaws the series has to adhere to.
Well, Marluxia is already pretty androgynous at first sight and I heard of several fans mistaking Riku for a girl in KH 1 due to the hair and eyelashes (young KH original characters in general have pretty luscious eyelashes, even Terra!) at first until they notice his body build.
Ventus and Roxas however, despite looking somewhat delicate from some angles are easily identificable as male.
Who knows? Maybe the seven Princesses will actually call him their "Prince", rofl.
Right now it really looks like Xehanort will dictate all the circumstances, but I doubt that all will go as he envisioned. His plans need to fail finally as no one can make always flawless plans that work every time. Even Emperor Palpatine, a master schemer, got duped in the end.
Funny thing is we have more candidates for the seven lights, which is the smaller group, than for the thirteen seekers right now. For the seekers, we have to even count people who most likely don't want to fight for that side, like Terra and (if he's included) the Riku Replica.
Yep, they would then just be brought back to be cannon fodder for Xehanort, which would be pretty lame especially since they already were pawns and cannon fodder before that and are in such torment right now because of what Xehanort already did.
Well I’d be happy if they just did a little there sure the other flaws such as the lack of character development for main characters has a higher priority, but there’s no reason for them not to attempt to treat these flaws in the same game.
Well Marluxia's was originally planned to be a woman, so it makes sense in his case. I actually questioned Sora’s gender when I first played KH’s opening, because I only knew his name as a girls name at the time.
That would be funny. I’d love it if a someone would drop such a remark, maybe Kairi could as if he was like a Prince of Hearts.
I’m pretty sure this will be the game where his plans come crumbling down and I’m looking forward to it.
I wonder, if Nomura did that intentionally. I definitely wouldn’t put it past him.
Yeah even them doing a heroic sacrifice to seal him away for ever would be cheap after all this. Also I want to play as them again in future games.
