• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Status
Not open for further replies.

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,523
Awards
37
Location
Germany
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I find Nomura's trolling quite amusing. Also by him doing it this way, we get more to speculate over and discuss.
I just don't quite get why his heart did that instead of becoming a heartless, might have to do with how his heart left his body.
So you think it's more likely that Eraqus and Terra just hindered Xehanort of banishing Terra's heart, which then led to him falling into the gate and losing his memories?

Sadly, several large parts of the fandom, especially the more casual fans and the most notorious KH 3-whiner don't see it that way.
Because Riku's heart didn't succumb to its own darkness or was captured by other Heartless, it was simply banished and ended up in the dark realm.
I do not make many assumptions on this mystery of the story as there are too many variables unknown right now, although I do heavily suspect that Xehanort failing to banish Terra's heart is either due to Terra's and Eraqus' combined influence or just Eraqus alone.
As we learn in DDD the memory loss wasn't that severe (or the very first experiments of Ansem the Wise actually lead to them being restored very quickly) and the dark portal was opened by the Guardian. How and to which extent Eraqus and Terra were involved in this or if it was just Xehanort losing control over the immense darkness for a short time I won't dare to say with conviction. It could also be that Xehanort was doing this on purpose in order to lure Aqua into a trap to get rid of her.

Yeah he got a glimmer of hope and went for it, sadly that led to tragedy for both him and Aqua.
Ansem was quite surprised. He even stated it was impossible. He really seemed to have been sure he won and that Riku was under his control.

Yeah, but by letting others help him his ties to them also grew stronger.
Great way to deal with your darkness, go shut it into other people! xD
But really I see his journey in dealing with it while be quite different from Riku's. Also he'd have Riku that could help him on this journey.

Oh okay. Yeah Aqua definitely had more on her plate then Sora did. While Sora did display similar forms of distrust and wariness I think he had a little more trust in Riku, then Aqua had in Terra.

Well she didn't fail out of lack of trying, she gave it her all, it just wasn't good enough. Though mainly because of the circumstances, if she hadn't been knocked out she might have been able to save Ven, but it still would have probably been to late for Terra.
I wonder who actually got the worse fate Terra or Aqua.
After all Aqua gave it her all and always came so close. She gave up her freedom to save a friend, who she will learn was responsible for a lot of pain and suffering in the universe. Also she had to witnes that the worlds she tried to protect had fallen into darkness and later on she learned that none of her friends came to their rescue but another boy with the keyblade in hand. Worse if she remembers her encounter with Sora, she'd learn that the boy she wanted to spare the fate of fighting his best friend ended up doing just that.

Well, it was sort of the point that BBS would end on a bleak note, so that was unavoidable.
So that seems to prove our assumptions correct, unlike Master Xehanort, who hold his guard up the whole time, Ansem got a tad overconfident because Riku let him in willingly at first. He didn't count on Riku's bonds with Sora and Kairi still being so strong that he would be able to rebel this effectively. That's probably also the main reason why Ansem banished Riku's heart out of its own body afterwards, he wanted to make sure such an incident won't hamper him again.

It goes also very well with the continuous theme of strong bonds between hearts in the series. Just because Sora is the one who can do this the easiest and does it most often doesn't mean other characters cannot do the same.
Yea, although Terra wasn't so thrilled about it in BBS, it's nonetheless a great offensive technique. rofl.
If he even still needs that, Terra's words in Blank Points indicate heavily that he already learned a bunch and having this inner struggle with MX for so long surely shaped his senses for this stuff better. For the final steps though, also for using his darkness for good in the future, Riku is probably the best teacher available for this task.
Heck, even Mickey was highly impressed as he said in CoM.

Yep. That may be explainable with Aqua's flawed views she got from Eraqus though, as Sora was never really exposed to the absolutist views for such a long time. Sora is also more instinct-driven and has no higher-placed duties to adhere to while Aqua goes more on logic and has her "Master-duties", which conflicts with her concern for her friends sometimes.
Nonetheless, you probably can be the darkest, biggest asshole around, if you're willing to atone and make amends both Sora and Aqua will probably give you a chance (even if he/she doesn't forgive your dark deeds).

That's why "circumstances" is the main point in this argument, one could make more points about why she let Braig get away instead of finishing him off and as the best magic user (after Xehanort) around didn't use fire magic to melt the ice Ven was encased in, but that would only detract from the main issue.
I don't compare people's sufferings against each other, all three got fates worse than death and that is enough. I hate such debates "but X suffered more than Y", getting your heart (which is practically the proof of life in the KH-Universe) nearly completely shattered (twice) is horrible, being imprisoned in your own body which is used as a puppet by your own worst enemy is as well just as being dumped into a world of darkness without any possibility to do something to help.
Terra wasn't responsible for anything happening after BBS, that was all Xehanort's doing, and to Aqua it was looking like Terra was about to regain control, so she saved "Terra-Xehanort" with the best intentions, probably hoping that when Terra finally regained full control he would take care of Ven and finally search for her.
That this all didn't come to pass and what she learns from Ansem the Wise will surely get her spirits down, just like the news of Eraqus' end, Ven's state after the final battle and the state of the Land of Departure as she finally saw it, but she will pull through that, because she always has.
The tears she sheds at the end of Blank Points after hearing Sora's name are tears of hope, not despair.

Yes it would appear so.

Yeah though I think Riku would have liked to have approached Roxas differently, if the circumstances were better. But he had to act fast, unlike with Xion where he could take his time and let it be her decision. If they didn't stop him then and there, Roxas would have gone through with his plan and probably would either get captured or worse. This does not however change the fact that they ignored that right, though DiZ was convinced he had no such right, so maybe that played into it.
But Roxas also stated he acknowledged it had to be Sora. If it were the other way round things would have gone differently and probably in a worse way. One of the biggest differences between Roxas and Sora in my opinion is Sora's ability to connect to anyone, which is needed for the story to come and for the kh2 story to an extent otherwise the people of the worlds we visited would have been off quite a bit worse. I think Riku and Namine realized that Sora was needed and because of that decided to do such a thing, sure they also had more feelings for Sora but I do think they had more trouble doing such a thing.
Namine definitely seemed to be the one that struggled the most with these decisions. She actively tried to make the transition easier for both Xion and Roxas.
While they didn't have the moral high ground, they were more troubled by it and not as indifferent, or so it seemed to me. I'm sure Xion also considered Roxas' wishes, but knew it was important for Sora to wake up.

RAX is definitely the best developed trio, I mean you could actually tell that Xion and Axel were friends, that they cared for, trusted and liked hanging out with each other. I feel the Aqua-Ventus relationship was better explored than Riku-Kairi. After all With Ven and Aqua we know they have a Big Sister - Little Brother kind of relationship and that she is quite protective of him. Let's just hope that in KH3 will have a lot of development of Kairi and Riku's friendship, sure KH1 and 2 had some nice moments, but not really enough to define what their relationship is.

By the way what do you think of the list I posted? Did I forget anyone?

Lol.

Well, granted, although even without all this Roxas has made it very clear several times that he wants to be his own entity. He wanted to know about where he came from, what his past was (Sora), but he never intended to give everything up for that.
That Roxas went on a rampage and attempted to destroy the Organisation together with the fake Kingdom Hearts was also at least partly Xion's fault because she asked him to do that. Roxas getting captured or worse could also have been easily prevented if Riku (and even Mickey) would have decided to lend a hand.
DiZ was a revenge-blinded jerkass at that time, something Riku recognized and despised, so his explanations have to be taken with a very big grain of salt.
Yeah, because afterwards, Roxas realized what Ansem the Wise also realized and explained to Riku at the end of DDD. When Sora explains about that he deserves to have his own existence, Roxas gets the confirmation that Sora really has the potential to revive those who lost their existence.
Riku's main motivation was to see Sora restored no matter what, a big part of this also being his determination to make up the crap he did to Sora during KH 1 while Naminé was mainly concerned with repairing the mess she herself created, which made the erasure of Roxas neccessary in the first place. Had Naminé not messed with Sora's memories none of those would have even been in Roxas, so they could have co-existed just fine (in this case however disregarding what this would have meant for Ven).
Indeed, I recall Naminé in Days even making a remark to Riku about how impressed she is with Roxas and Xion fighting so diligently to be their own individuals, which made the whole issue even harder for her. Naminé already felt so much guilt over what she did to Sora in CoM, and to remedy that she had to create more suffering in turn, which her data-self in Coded points out as well. In this light, I guess it is somewhat lucky that Naminé didn't knew that Roxas and Xion had grown their own hearts, making them effectively people in their own right.
Due to both Riku and Naminé being main characters as well, it is of course designed to a degree that they are more sympathetic.
Naminé's actions can be interpreted differently, as it was after all her who brainwashed Roxas in order to keep him from rebelling or running away and lied to him about not disappearing when that was in fact what happened, but I do believe her actions and attitude are meant more from a more sympathetic side. Riku has two or three lines throughout Days and KH 2 which imply that he at least feels pity towards Roxas, and I think we don't need to discuss DiZ, his apology at the end of KH 2 and him now providing the data to make amends (and his speech in Blank Points) show enough about his attitude back then.
It is interesting though also on another layer when looking at Riku and Axel, both wanted their best friend back but could only do so in expense of the other. It would surely have been interesting to see a Riku vs Axel over this issue, lol.
As for Xion considering Roxas' wishes I dunno, I don't remember her ever even asking as she was always concerned with her own problems and kept him in the dark about everything.

Aqua-Ventus being better than Riku-Kairi is not a big deal though, as the relationship between Kairi and anyone besides Sora lacks decisively.

For that, I need to re-read the whole thing first. ;P

@AdrianXXII - And all of that is why I feel she's likely to "pull an Eraqus" at some point in KH3, most likely blaming herself for not being aggressive enough against Darkness in BBS, believing if she was then MX may not have had his way with her friends.

That, and she may subconsciously want revenge on MX and his legacy (mostly associated with Darkness) for everything that's happened, although she may not realize it until the end.

Surprisingly similar to Godot from Ace Attorney, actually.

There we go again. <__<

I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, but I have to admit that in all honesty your constant preaching about Aqua becoming a villain at every slightest opportunity is slowly starting to get on my nerves.
Notwithstanding that this also hasn't anything to do with the topic at hand.

Eraqus terrably overreacts once and regrets it almost immediately afterwards and now there's already a "pull and Eraques"...

I can't see Aqua hating the darkness she spent 11 years in darkness, she kinda had to except it's existance. If anything I can see her fall into a deep depression... she already almost did at the end of BBS.

It's nothing new from that front.

This, and Aqua isn't stupid, she's portrayed as one of the most clever and level-headed characters out of the main trios. It has been discussed to death already that Aqua going nuts and starting a rampage would be terribly out of character for her, so I won't open that barrel again, as this also isn't the topic!

Monster-post is monstrous...:eek:
 

Zettaflare

Shibuya
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
11,724
Awards
4
Location
California
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Sadly, several large parts of the fandom, especially the more casual fans and the most notorious KH 3-whiner don't see it that way.
Because Riku's heart didn't succumb to its own darkness or was captured by other Heartless, it was simply banished and ended up in the dark realm.
I do not make many assumptions on this mystery of the story as there are too many variables unknown right now, although I do heavily suspect that Xehanort failing to banish Terra's heart is either due to Terra's and Eraqus' combined influence or just Eraqus alone.
As we learn in DDD the memory loss wasn't that severe (or the very first experiments of Ansem the Wise actually lead to them being restored very quickly) and the dark portal was opened by the Guardian. How and to which extent Eraqus and Terra were involved in this or if it was just Xehanort losing control over the immense darkness for a short time I won't dare to say with conviction. It could also be that Xehanort was doing this on purpose in order to lure Aqua into a trap to get rid of her.



Well, it was sort of the point that BBS would end on a bleak note, so that was unavoidable.
So that seems to prove our assumptions correct, unlike Master Xehanort, who hold his guard up the whole time, Ansem got a tad overconfident because Riku let him in willingly at first. He didn't count on Riku's bonds with Sora and Kairi still being so strong that he would be able to rebel this effectively. That's probably also the main reason why Ansem banished Riku's heart out of its own body afterwards, he wanted to make sure such an incident won't hamper him again.

It goes also very well with the continuous theme of strong bonds between hearts in the series. Just because Sora is the one who can do this the easiest and does it most often doesn't mean other characters cannot do the same.
Yea, although Terra wasn't so thrilled about it in BBS, it's nonetheless a great offensive technique. rofl.
If he even still needs that, Terra's words in Blank Points indicate heavily that he already learned a bunch and having this inner struggle with MX for so long surely shaped his senses for this stuff better. For the final steps though, also for using his darkness for good in the future, Riku is probably the best teacher available for this task.
Heck, even Mickey was highly impressed as he said in CoM.

Yep. That may be explainable with Aqua's flawed views she got from Eraqus though, as Sora was never really exposed to the absolutist views for such a long time. Sora is also more instinct-driven and has no higher-placed duties to adhere to while Aqua goes more on logic and has her "Master-duties", which conflicts with her concern for her friends sometimes.
Nonetheless, you probably can be the darkest, biggest asshole around, if you're willing to atone and make amends both Sora and Aqua will probably give you a chance (even if he/she doesn't forgive your dark deeds).

That's why "circumstances" is the main point in this argument, one could make more points about why she let Braig get away instead of finishing him off and as the best magic user (after Xehanort) around didn't use fire magic to melt the ice Ven was encased in, but that would only detract from the main issue.
I don't compare people's sufferings against each other, all three got fates worse than death and that is enough. I hate such debates "but X suffered more than Y", getting your heart (which is practically the proof of life in the KH-Universe) nearly completely shattered (twice) is horrible, being imprisoned in your own body which is used as a puppet by your own worst enemy is as well just as being dumped into a world of darkness without any possibility to do something to help.
Terra wasn't responsible for anything happening after BBS, that was all Xehanort's doing, and to Aqua it was looking like Terra was about to regain control, so she saved "Terra-Xehanort" with the best intentions, probably hoping that when Terra finally regained full control he would take care of Ven and finally search for her.
That this all didn't come to pass and what she learns from Ansem the Wise will surely get her spirits down, just like the news of Eraqus' end, Ven's state after the final battle and the state of the Land of Departure as she finally saw it, but she will pull through that, because she always has.
The tears she sheds at the end of Blank Points after hearing Sora's name are tears of hope, not despair.



Lol.

Well, granted, although even without all this Roxas has made it very clear several times that he wants to be his own entity. He wanted to know about where he came from, what his past was (Sora), but he never intended to give everything up for that.
That Roxas went on a rampage and attempted to destroy the Organisation together with the fake Kingdom Hearts was also at least partly Xion's fault because she asked him to do that. Roxas getting captured or worse could also have been easily prevented if Riku (and even Mickey) would have decided to lend a hand.
DiZ was a revenge-blinded jerkass at that time, something Riku recognized and despised, so his explanations have to be taken with a very big grain of salt.
Yeah, because afterwards, Roxas realized what Ansem the Wise also realized and explained to Riku at the end of DDD. When Sora explains about that he deserves to have his own existence, Roxas gets the confirmation that Sora really has the potential to revive those who lost their existence.
Riku's main motivation was to see Sora restored no matter what, a big part of this also being his determination to make up the crap he did to Sora during KH 1 while Naminé was mainly concerned with repairing the mess she herself created, which made the erasure of Roxas neccessary in the first place. Had Naminé not messed with Sora's memories none of those would have even been in Roxas, so they could have co-existed just fine (in this case however disregarding what this would have meant for Ven).
Indeed, I recall Naminé in Days even making a remark to Riku about how impressed she is with Roxas and Xion fighting so diligently to be their own individuals, which made the whole issue even harder for her. Naminé already felt so much guilt over what she did to Sora in CoM, and to remedy that she had to create more suffering in turn, which her data-self in Coded points out as well. In this light, I guess it is somewhat lucky that Naminé didn't knew that Roxas and Xion had grown their own hearts, making them effectively people in their own right.
Due to both Riku and Naminé being main characters as well, it is of course designed to a degree that they are more sympathetic.
Naminé's actions can be interpreted differently, as it was after all her who brainwashed Roxas in order to keep him from rebelling or running away and lied to him about not disappearing when that was in fact what happened, but I do believe her actions and attitude are meant more from a more sympathetic side. Riku has two or three lines throughout Days and KH 2 which imply that he at least feels pity towards Roxas, and I think we don't need to discuss DiZ, his apology at the end of KH 2 and him now providing the data to make amends (and his speech in Blank Points) show enough about his attitude back then.
It is interesting though also on another layer when looking at Riku and Axel, both wanted their best friend back but could only do so in expense of the other. It would surely have been interesting to see a Riku vs Axel over this issue, lol.
As for Xion considering Roxas' wishes I dunno, I don't remember her ever even asking as she was always concerned with her own problems and kept him in the dark about everything.

Aqua-Ventus being better than Riku-Kairi is not a big deal though, as the relationship between Kairi and anyone besides Sora lacks decisively.

For that, I need to re-read the whole thing first. ;P



There we go again. <__<

I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, but I have to admit that in all honesty your constant preaching about Aqua becoming a villain at every slightest opportunity is slowly starting to get on my nerves.
Notwithstanding that this also hasn't anything to do with the topic at hand.



It's nothing new from that front.

This, and Aqua isn't stupid, she's portrayed as one of the most clever and level-headed characters out of the main trios. It has been discussed to death already that Aqua going nuts and starting a rampage would be terribly out of character for her, so I won't open that barrel again, as this also isn't the topic!

Monster-post is monstrous...:eek:
I think he sees potential for aqua to become a villain because she has a bias against the darkness, similar to how xehanort has a bias against the light. For aqua, its kind of understandable, given how much the darkness has ruined her friends life, her masters life, destroyed her home, and took away her freedom. So i suppose its no surprise why she currently has negative feelings of the darkness. But i would imagine thats not enough to make her an antagonist. Hopefully riku can change the way she views the darkness
 

AdrianXXII

Dyslexic rambler
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
2,991
Awards
15
Location
Switzerland
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Sadly, several large parts of the fandom, especially the more casual fans and the most notorious KH 3-whiner don't see it that way.
Because Riku's heart didn't succumb to its own darkness or was captured by other Heartless, it was simply banished and ended up in the dark realm.
I do not make many assumptions on this mystery of the story as there are too many variables unknown right now, although I do heavily suspect that Xehanort failing to banish Terra's heart is either due to Terra's and Eraqus' combined influence or just Eraqus alone.
As we learn in DDD the memory loss wasn't that severe (or the very first experiments of Ansem the Wise actually lead to them being restored very quickly) and the dark portal was opened by the Guardian. How and to which extent Eraqus and Terra were involved in this or if it was just Xehanort losing control over the immense darkness for a short time I won't dare to say with conviction. It could also be that Xehanort was doing this on purpose in order to lure Aqua into a trap to get rid of her.

They're lose, it keeps the series more alive in my opinion.
Well did Sora succumb to his own darkness or have his heart captured by another Heartless, not to my knowledge and still he became a heartless upon release of his heart into the world.
I could totally see Xehanort doing that to trap her. If he did that he's even a sneaker than I thought he was.

Well, it was sort of the point that BBS would end on a bleak note, so that was unavoidable.
So that seems to prove our assumptions correct, unlike Master Xehanort, who hold his guard up the whole time, Ansem got a tad overconfident because Riku let him in willingly at first. He didn't count on Riku's bonds with Sora and Kairi still being so strong that he would be able to rebel this effectively. That's probably also the main reason why Ansem banished Riku's heart out of its own body afterwards, he wanted to make sure such an incident won't hamper him again.

It goes also very well with the continuous theme of strong bonds between hearts in the series. Just because Sora is the one who can do this the easiest and does it most often doesn't mean other characters cannot do the same.
Yea, although Terra wasn't so thrilled about it in BBS, it's nonetheless a great offensive technique. rofl.
If he even still needs that, Terra's words in Blank Points indicate heavily that he already learned a bunch and having this inner struggle with MX for so long surely shaped his senses for this stuff better. For the final steps though, also for using his darkness for good in the future, Riku is probably the best teacher available for this task.
Heck, even Mickey was highly impressed as he said in CoM.

Yes, but it doesn't make it less tragic.
I guess it would. I find it funny that he wouldn't assume that his bond to at least Kairi was still strong, after all Maleficent and him did seem to encourage Riku's almost obsession like fixation on find and saving her. Though it was for his own means after all he knew Kairi was a princess, I feel he helped Riku in this regard.
I think another reason was because he didn't want to have a fight within his own heart he seemed too know how those worked out.

Well we saw in DDD that Riku is just as capable of making friends though he does it in his own way and the bonds might not grow as strong.
eh, Terra will get used to it.
Yeah, but it's hard to say seeing he just hints at it, he easily could also be planing on overpowering the darkness with a strong inner light. Even so there's no denying he must have learned something having probably resisted Xehanort for so long. Yes Riku would definitely be the best teacher we know of. I also think it would be important for him to learn how to develop the resistance that Riku developed.

Yep. That may be explainable with Aqua's flawed views she got from Eraqus though, as Sora was never really exposed to the absolutist views for such a long time. Sora is also more instinct-driven and has no higher-placed duties to adhere to while Aqua goes more on logic and has her "Master-duties", which conflicts with her concern for her friends sometimes.
Nonetheless, you probably can be the darkest, biggest asshole around, if you're willing to atone and make amends both Sora and Aqua will probably give you a chance (even if he/she doesn't forgive your dark deeds).

I agree Aqua's view as definitely influenced by her up bringing by Eraqus, but her logical thinking probably also had some alarms going off based on what she saw.
I find it interesting how both can be very caring people but have such different personalities. Like you said Sora doesn't seem to think too much about what he's going to do or what's happening before he acts. Aqua definitely isn't like that.
I feel her feelings of obligation to her master are also something that sometimes come in the way of her friendship with the boys.

That's why "circumstances" is the main point in this argument, one could make more points about why she let Braig get away instead of finishing him off and as the best magic user (after Xehanort) around didn't use fire magic to melt the ice Ven was encased in, but that would only detract from the main issue.
I don't compare people's sufferings against each other, all three got fates worse than death and that is enough. I hate such debates "but X suffered more than Y", getting your heart (which is practically the proof of life in the KH-Universe) nearly completely shattered (twice) is horrible, being imprisoned in your own body which is used as a puppet by your own worst enemy is as well just as being dumped into a world of darkness without any possibility to do something to help.
Terra wasn't responsible for anything happening after BBS, that was all Xehanort's doing, and to Aqua it was looking like Terra was about to regain control, so she saved "Terra-Xehanort" with the best intentions, probably hoping that when Terra finally regained full control he would take care of Ven and finally search for her.
That this all didn't come to pass and what she learns from Ansem the Wise will surely get her spirits down, just like the news of Eraqus' end, Ven's state after the final battle and the state of the Land of Departure as she finally saw it, but she will pull through that, because she always has.
The tears she sheds at the end of Blank Points after hearing Sora's name are tears of hope, not despair.

Yes, also I feel their are good reasons for most.
Well I can understand that, but I personally sometimes wonder what would feel worse... but in the end I feel they all went through terrible things and will grow from those experiences.
Even if he wasn't do it directly. I still can see Aqua feeling a little guilty for what Xehanort has done, even if it wasn't her fault. After all like you stated she thought Terra had come through.
This is pretty much confirmed by her reaction to Ansem the Wise. And yeah I don't see these thing doing more then just getting her down a little or making her depressed for a short time, but as you stated she seems to be someone who can pull through, as she seems to have a fighting spirit in her.
Yes they were definitely tears of hope. I have the feeling she might have even remembered him by her reaction. Honestly seeing how she's the only one who saw all of SRK I'm looking forward to her reaction when she sees them again only a few years younger than she is.


Well, granted, although even without all this Roxas has made it very clear several times that he wants to be his own entity. He wanted to know about where he came from, what his past was (Sora), but he never intended to give everything up for that.
That Roxas went on a rampage and attempted to destroy the Organisation together with the fake Kingdom Hearts was also at least partly Xion's fault because she asked him to do that. Roxas getting captured or worse could also have been easily prevented if Riku (and even Mickey) would have decided to lend a hand.
DiZ was a revenge-blinded jerkass at that time, something Riku recognized and despised, so his explanations have to be taken with a very big grain of salt.
Yeah, because afterwards, Roxas realized what Ansem the Wise also realized and explained to Riku at the end of DDD. When Sora explains about that he deserves to have his own existence, Roxas gets the confirmation that Sora really has the potential to revive those who lost their existence.
Riku's main motivation was to see Sora restored no matter what, a big part of this also being his determination to make up the crap he did to Sora during KH 1 while Naminé was mainly concerned with repairing the mess she herself created, which made the erasure of Roxas neccessary in the first place. Had Naminé not messed with Sora's memories none of those would have even been in Roxas, so they could have co-existed just fine (in this case however disregarding what this would have meant for Ven).
Indeed, I recall Naminé in Days even making a remark to Riku about how impressed she is with Roxas and Xion fighting so diligently to be their own individuals, which made the whole issue even harder for her. Naminé already felt so much guilt over what she did to Sora in CoM, and to remedy that she had to create more suffering in turn, which her data-self in Coded points out as well. In this light, I guess it is somewhat lucky that Naminé didn't knew that Roxas and Xion had grown their own hearts, making them effectively people in their own right.
Due to both Riku and Naminé being main characters as well, it is of course designed to a degree that they are more sympathetic.
Naminé's actions can be interpreted differently, as it was after all her who brainwashed Roxas in order to keep him from rebelling or running away and lied to him about not disappearing when that was in fact what happened, but I do believe her actions and attitude are meant more from a more sympathetic side. Riku has two or three lines throughout Days and KH 2 which imply that he at least feels pity towards Roxas, and I think we don't need to discuss DiZ, his apology at the end of KH 2 and him now providing the data to make amends (and his speech in Blank Points) show enough about his attitude back then.
It is interesting though also on another layer when looking at Riku and Axel, both wanted their best friend back but could only do so in expense of the other. It would surely have been interesting to see a Riku vs Axel over this issue, lol.
As for Xion considering Roxas' wishes I dunno, I don't remember her ever even asking as she was always concerned with her own problems and kept him in the dark about everything.

Yes, but I still think he would have had an easier time excepting it, if he knew what was at stake. Also I couldn't see Roxas being okay with Sora being in a coma just so he can live his live.
Yes, it is partly Xion's fault, though she didn't mean for Roxas to do it immediately... Yes they could have tried to prevent it, but the numbers of Org members where still quite high and escaping would have been quite hard. I think it made more sense to stop it before it even happened.
Even if they had to take it with a very big grain of salt, they couldn't deny he was an expert in that area of research and they didn't know anything to prove it wrong.
Yes and I feel he that actually made him come to terms with living on within Sora, for that time being.
I don't know, just think how Riku acted around Xion. He didn't force her or anything, he even stated that he didn't hate her for taking his friend away, though not really remembering him might have helped. But yes both he and Namine wanted to undo the harm they did to Sora in the past. I wonder if she even knew she had her own heart.
Is Namine really a main character I see her more as an important supporting character.
Did Namine really lie to him about not disappearing after all he did continue to exist with in Sora like she said.
It would have definitely been interesting to see them interact that way. I actually find it interesting that they seemed like they ended up having some sort of working relationship going on, seeing Axel didn't do anything about them in CO and he took in Namine after Riku was suppose to take her out, if I recall correctly.
I think she probably did, because he'd be going through something similar and I'm sure she knew that he desired to be his own person, didn't she desire the same? She just later decided to bite the bullet for the greater good.

Aqua-Ventus being better than Riku-Kairi is not a big deal though, as the relationship between Kairi and anyone besides Sora lacks decisively.

For that, I need to re-read the whole thing first. ;P

Yeah, it as sad truth... I really hope this changes it doesn't seem fair to her character.

I thought I re-posted it recently... apparently not

Seen and Confirmed
01 Master Xehanort
02 Xemnas
03 Ansem Seeker of Darkness
04 Braig / Xigbar
05 Isa / Saïx
06 Young Xehanort

Confirmed but not seen
07 Terra-Xehanort * MX implied this

Seen in 3D but not confirmed
08 Vanitas
09 Riku lookalike (Possesed Riku / Riku Replica)

Unknown
10 ?
11 ?
12 ?

13 N/A was suppose to be Riku then Sora


Unikely Original characters potential candidates
- Aeleus
- Ansem the Wise
- Ienzo
- Master Eraqus
- Roxas * Same reason as Sora.
- Sora * He's only on the list because he disappeared at the end but is veeeeeeeeeery unlikely
- Xion * Because we don't know what Xemnas did to her off screen

More likely characters potential candidates:
- Demyx
- Dilan / Xaldin
- Even / Vexen
- Riku Replica / Riku-Ansem
- Ventus-Vanitas
- Larxene
- Luxord
- Marluxia



It's nothing new from that front.

This, and Aqua isn't stupid, she's portrayed as one of the most clever and level-headed characters out of the main trios. It has been discussed to death already that Aqua going nuts and starting a rampage would be terribly out of character for her, so I won't open that barrel again, as this also isn't the topic!

Monster-post is monstrous...:eek:

Exactly Aqua is one of the most level-headed character. That's one of the reasons I like her so much.

It seems we've created some monsters in this thread.
 

Smithee

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2012
Messages
608
Awards
3
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

@AdrianXXII - I couldn't resist:
1.jpg
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,523
Awards
37
Location
Germany
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I think he sees potential for aqua to become a villain because she has a bias against the darkness, similar to how xehanort has a bias against the light. For aqua, its kind of understandable, given how much the darkness has ruined her friends life, her masters life, destroyed her home, and took away her freedom. So i suppose its no surprise why she currently has negative feelings of the darkness. But i would imagine thats not enough to make her an antagonist. Hopefully riku can change the way she views the darkness

The problem is that this is the only thing he sees about Aqua ignoring her other traits.
Aqua is one of the most focused and level-headed characters out of the main cast.
Comparing her to Xehanort is a bit bold though as her "bias" against darkness isn't nearly as strong as Xehanort's obsession. Not even Eraqus is as extreme as Xehanort is.
Like Adrian said, Eraqus overreacted once and tried to do something horrible, which he already regretted soon after while Xehanort does horrible things on a daily base.
The so-called "darkness bias" of Eraqus (and by extension Aqua) is often blown way out of proportion, often by but not always by darkness fans who seek to relativize Xehanort's evil by painting Eraqus evil as well.
Negative feelings about the darkness are not uncommon anyways because they all are beings of the Realm of Light. Light is all of their birth elements. I have yet to see any good character who actually embraces or "welcomes" the darkness. Even Riku in DDD makes pretty clear that he stands on the side of the light, rebuking Ansem's temptation to set his darkness free to rescue Sora. He agrees to not hold the darkness in anymore, but only to consume it and return it to light.
Yen Sid and Mickey also make it pretty clear during their discussions and explanations that their main concern is to protect the light and the world order, so there is nothing Aqua would actually disagree with.
So your second to last statement is completely correct, there isn't enough of a base to turn Aqua into an antagonist.

They're lose, it keeps the series more alive in my opinion.
Well did Sora succumb to his own darkness or have his heart captured by another Heartless, not to my knowledge and still he became a heartless upon release of his heart into the world.
I could totally see Xehanort doing that to trap her. If he did that he's even a sneaker than I thought he was.
I agree on that one, lol, but opinions are opinions. ;)
Yes, Sora DID succumb to his own darkness because that is what the Heart Unlocker-Keyblade he used for Harakiri does, it exposes your heart to your own darkness and causes it to overlfow.
After DDD we must be ready to expect nearly everything from Xehanort. He's a master schemer close to the caliber of Emperor Palpatine or David Xanatos.


Yes, but it doesn't make it less tragic.
I guess it would. I find it funny that he wouldn't assume that his bond to at least Kairi was still strong, after all Maleficent and him did seem to encourage Riku's almost obsession like fixation on find and saving her. Though it was for his own means after all he knew Kairi was a princess, I feel he helped Riku in this regard.
I think another reason was because he didn't want to have a fight within his own heart he seemed too know how those worked out.

Well we saw in DDD that Riku is just as capable of making friends though he does it in his own way and the bonds might not grow as strong.
eh, Terra will get used to it.
Yeah, but it's hard to say seeing he just hints at it, he easily could also be planing on overpowering the darkness with a strong inner light. Even so there's no denying he must have learned something having probably resisted Xehanort for so long. Yes Riku would definitely be the best teacher we know of. I also think it would be important for him to learn how to develop the resistance that Riku developed.
Of course, that's also what sometimes bothers me a little when people tend to swoon so much over how tragic Xion's fate is, nearly completely forgetting the BBS-Trio who are suffering for ten years.
Even if Ansem assumed that, remember that he was attempting to kill Kairi, Donald and Goofy when Riku finally managed to intervene. Even if Riku didn't came back to his senses, the cultivated fixation on her as you pointed out would drive him to rebel against Ansem harming her as well.

Not only Riku, we can see that with nearly every main character in the series, even Terra befriended the lost boys, Peter Pan and Stitch and Ventus is probably the biggest friendship-freak in the entire series besides Sora.
That's for sure, lol, I wonder if we'll see some more fleshed out and more individualized battle styles of all the main trios in the next saga. Like if Riku keeps his strong darkness-based style, Terra's style becomes less-darkness focused with more earth elements.
From what I gathered Terra seemed to be mainly concerned to endure and bide his time to wait for an opportunity to strike at Xehanort when he doesn't expect it. Terra isn't the character personality-wise to make broad and complex strategic plans, his strengths are situated more on the tactical level. It is possible though that he formed a sort of long-term strategy with Eraqus depending on how active Eraqus' heart actually is.
Sure, learning that resistance might be a boon for any character that hasn't a heart of pure light, as DDD showed us that even if you're good-natured to the core and only want to help like Sora, others can exploit that to make your heart fall to the darkness due to pure stress and torment. Data-Naminé warned about that possibility already in Coded.


I agree Aqua's view as definitely influenced by her up bringing by Eraqus, but her logical thinking probably also had some alarms going off based on what she saw.
I find it interesting how both can be very caring people but have such different personalities. Like you said Sora doesn't seem to think too much about what he's going to do or what's happening before he acts. Aqua definitely isn't like that.
I feel her feelings of obligation to her master are also something that sometimes come in the way of her friendship with the boys.

Correct, it is a mixture of those things, that's why I pointed out that Aqua's so-called "bias" against darkness is often blown out of proportion. Yep, her alarms may have going off but she failed to properly explain her concerns, so Terra at first completely misunderstood her true intentions.
They are both caring people indeed, but they act from different first moves: Sora acts emotional, with pure thoughts, as Ansem the Wise explains to Riku in DDD, while Aqua at first acts rational, more distanced and evaluating due to her training.
This was one of the focal points for her character though, being a model student whose sense of duty gets in conflict with her feelings for her friends. In the end, she manages to balance both out to a degree, but then the damage is already done.

Yes, also I feel their are good reasons for most.
Well I can understand that, but I personally sometimes wonder what would feel worse... but in the end I feel they all went through terrible things and will grow from those experiences.
Even if he wasn't do it directly. I still can see Aqua feeling a little guilty for what Xehanort has done, even if it wasn't her fault. After all like you stated she thought Terra had come through.
This is pretty much confirmed by her reaction to Ansem the Wise. And yeah I don't see these thing doing more then just getting her down a little or making her depressed for a short time, but as you stated she seems to be someone who can pull through, as she seems to have a fighting spirit in her.
Yes they were definitely tears of hope. I have the feeling she might have even remembered him by her reaction. Honestly seeing how she's the only one who saw all of SRK I'm looking forward to her reaction when she sees them again only a few years younger than she is.

*shrugs* I find all of their fates equally unpleasant. Ventus is incapable of doing anything with huge pain to boot which Sora can feel even worlds away, needing to find a resting place or face to fade completely away. Terra is a prisoner in his own body, and while he can "do" more than Ven is capable of, he is restricted to his own heart and has to deal with the big bad himself. Aqua may have full freedom of movement and control over her body (unlike the two boys), but all this doesn't mean anything because she's in a place where this is totally useless.
Getting her depressed would inevitably lead to one of Sora's famous cheer-up sequences, not to mention Aqua being a focused character would drop this very fast and get "to business" when she learns that Sora is protecting Ventus' heart inside himself and plans to free him from his torment.
I'm looking forward to more interaction between the three main trios in general. A meeting between Roxas and Ventus can turn out to be heartwarming, awkward and funny at the same time while Riku & Terra will definitely be a highlight, just like Sora and Ventus finally meeting face-to-face. After all, their hearts are very tightly linked since Sora's birth.


Yes, but I still think he would have had an easier time excepting it, if he knew what was at stake. Also I couldn't see Roxas being okay with Sora being in a coma just so he can live his live.
Yes, it is partly Xion's fault, though she didn't mean for Roxas to do it immediately... Yes they could have tried to prevent it, but the numbers of Org members where still quite high and escaping would have been quite hard. I think it made more sense to stop it before it even happened.
Even if they had to take it with a very big grain of salt, they couldn't deny he was an expert in that area of research and they didn't know anything to prove it wrong.
Yes and I feel he that actually made him come to terms with living on within Sora, for that time being.
I don't know, just think how Riku acted around Xion. He didn't force her or anything, he even stated that he didn't hate her for taking his friend away, though not really remembering him might have helped. But yes both he and Namine wanted to undo the harm they did to Sora in the past. I wonder if she even knew she had her own heart.
Is Namine really a main character I see her more as an important supporting character.
Did Namine really lie to him about not disappearing after all he did continue to exist with in Sora like she said.
It would have definitely been interesting to see them interact that way. I actually find it interesting that they seemed like they ended up having some sort of working relationship going on, seeing Axel didn't do anything about them in CO and he took in Namine after Riku was suppose to take her out, if I recall correctly.
I think she probably did, because he'd be going through something similar and I'm sure she knew that he desired to be his own person, didn't she desire the same? She just later decided to bite the bullet for the greater good.


Yeah, it as sad truth... I really hope this changes it doesn't seem fair to her character.

I thought I re-posted it recently... apparently not


Exactly Aqua is one of the most level-headed character. That's one of the reasons I like her so much.

It seems we've created some monsters in this thread.


Of course, in the end he was selfless enough to accept that sacrifice, even if it was forced on him and he wasn't given a choice unlike Xion, who did get a choice, which in regards to Sora's state was actually a bit reckless on Riku's part. That however on the other hand could be an indicator that Riku actually did see Xion as an individual on her own and didn't want to use force because he knew that in essence this would have been wrong.
Just for the argument's sake let's go down the radical route: Why should Roxas care if Sora stays in a coma or not? It wasn't his fault that Sora ended up like this, Naminé messed this up AND on top of it expected him to give up his life to fix HER mistakes.
Doing this in reverse no one cared if Roxas would be put in a total coma inside Sora just so Sora can live his life.
Sure, one can say that none of them knew at the time about Roxas having his own heart (except DiZ, who found out but kept silent because he didn't want to acknowledge it), but they also didn't know about Sora's super-connection powers during the time of Days/KH 2, so it remains a double-edged sword.
This very babbling of Xion in her last moments is really iffy anyways, as if it was just put in there to give a reason for Roxas to go on his rampage. What did Xion even intent with informing Roxas of this as her last wish but fails to mention "oh, but don't do it right now"?
Xemnas' and Xigbar's web of lies was really well woven, as even Yen Sid got fooled. Still, there were obvious hints like crying, which is impossible without a heart and Ansem the Wise even admitted later at TWTNW that he found out things but refused to acknowledge them.

Well, it's not like Roxas had any other option as to come to terms with the status quo since it was already too late. Although that situation certainly cannot be called "living" as Roxas' consciousness, as indicated by Axel in their farewell scene in KH 2 Final Mix is forced into sleep, therefore his and Sora's roles are swapped and it is the primary reason why Sora can only see and interact with Roxas while dreaming. He isn't really living but in an eternal coma inside Sora's heart, just like Xion.
On that note, Young Xehanort's remark about a "prison" isn't totally off the mark despite Sora never intending any harm.
This behaviour of Riku I attribute partly to the impression that he might truly have seen more in Xion than just a puppet, and as he also voiced pity for Roxas more than once this can indicate that he was as uneasy with his actions as Naminé was despite not showing it as openly as she did.
We don't know if Naminé knew about the growing hearts-part, but her statements towards Roxas in KH 2 suggest otherwise. The only characters who knew about this during the time period of Days/CoM/KH 2 for sure were Xemnas, Xehanort and Xigbar while Ansem(DiZ) may have known but refused to see it.
True, she may not be as important anymore as the BBS-Trio, Lea or Roxas, but during CoM she clearly was on main character status.
This depends on how you define "existing". The journal and chronicles in DDD clearly say that Roxas "ceased to exist" and being in a forced coma inside another heart, I dunno if that can count as a true "existence".
In CO Axel had no real reason to do anything against Riku or Naminé as there wasn't really any immediate danger for him or his agenda from them.
That Riku allowed Naminé to go with Axel was actually his "payback" for Axel laying low on them in CO, as stated in the Final Mix-exclusive cutscene. Riku also didn't want to take out Naminé as wished by DiZ because he was already disgusted on how badly DiZ had treated Roxas and that he wanted to use Sora and himself as a tool in his revenge plans.
Xion definitely desired to be her own individual, as Naminé commented to Riku that she was impressed on how both Roxas and Xion were fighting for their independence.

The needed attention to Kairi failed nearly the whole saga so far except KH 1 and 2. I just hope they don't rush some half-hearted stuff in for her in KH 3 or diverge so much focus on her that she becomes the Xion of KH 3, sucking away too much spotlight from the other important characters and plot points.
I would have preferred it if they kept genuine and thought-out development for the next saga instead of cramming up the finale if this one with even more stuff.

As for the list, nope, looks not like you forgot anyone, even the less likely options like Marluxia, Larxene and Demyx are included.

This is a monster as well, I really need to somehow shorten my explanations, rofl.
 

Roxie1563

Actress/Healer in Persona: Icebound
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Messages
4,367
Awards
20
Age
30
Location
Nix
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

You guys are so interesting to read/watch.. I don't think I would explain everything in this post, lol.

But I do know one thing for sure: Xehanort's going down, baby!!
 

Smithee

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2012
Messages
608
Awards
3
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

You guys are so interesting to read/watch.. I don't think I would explain everything in this post, lol.

But I do know one thing for sure: Xehanort's going down, baby!!

I'm looking forward to seeing what his own fate worse than death will be.
 

Zettaflare

Shibuya
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
11,724
Awards
4
Location
California
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

7 lights vs 13 darknesses. The fight to prevent the second keyblade war. This is going to be epic. I wonder if donald, goofy and yen sid are going to participate
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,523
Awards
37
Location
Germany
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

7 lights vs 13 darknesses. The fight to prevent the second keyblade war. This is going to be epic. I wonder if donald, goofy and yen sid are going to participate

Donald and Goofy: Very likely, as are the other allies who won't be one of the seven lights (mainly Roxas and Xion if Lea is indeed a light)

Yen Sid: Unlikely, he's retired.
 

Zettaflare

Shibuya
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
11,724
Awards
4
Location
California
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Donald and Goofy: Very likely, as are the other allies who won't be one of the seven lights (mainly Roxas and Xion if Lea is indeed a light)

Yen Sid: Unlikely, he's retired.
Your probably right about yen sid. Which is a shame because i really wanted to see him in action. Oh well, hopefully we get to see his keyblade in kh3.
 

Reagan Rayden

Exploding Man
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Messages
7,085
Awards
6
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

His keyblade is probably the Star Seeker keyblade that Mickey now uses.
 

Zettaflare

Shibuya
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
11,724
Awards
4
Location
California
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

His keyblade is probably the Star Seeker keyblade that Mickey now uses.

I doubt that, the star seeker is mickeys own keyblade, that he inherited from yen sid. When aqua and terra inherited the keyblade from eraqus, their keyblades didnt resemble his. The same with xehanort and ventus. Also keep in mind that when lea inherited the keyblade from yensid, his didnt not match the star seeker, if that is indeed yensid's keyblade.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,523
Awards
37
Location
Germany
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I doubt that, the star seeker is mickeys own keyblade, that he inherited from yen sid. When aqua and terra inherited the keyblade from eraqus, their keyblades didnt resemble his. The same with xehanort and ventus. Also keep in mind that when lea inherited the keyblade from yensid, his didnt not match the star seeker, if that is indeed yensid's keyblade.

That's because performing the ceremony does not cause anyone to inherit an actual Keyblade from the master. Only the power/ability to wield one is passed down and the person in question still has to be chosen by a Keyblade itself, the initial standard form being not decided by who is the Master that performed the ceremony.

Yen Sid performed the ceremony with Lea, granting him the ability to wield a Keyblade since Lea's heart was qualified enough. But Lea didn't gain a Keyblade from Yen Sid. The training Lea received from Merlin and the three fairies was actually a sped up process in order to increase the odds of Lea manifesting a Keyblade faster.
He didn't gain his own blade until the hilarious scene in the ending of DDD however.

We don't know if Mickey's Star Seeker isn't only a keychain for Mickey's personal blade, just like it is for Sora.
Theme-wise the Star Seeker would fit as Yen Sid's standard keychain.
 

Roxie1563

Actress/Healer in Persona: Icebound
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Messages
4,367
Awards
20
Age
30
Location
Nix
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I'm thinking Master Yen Sid will probably be Mickey's adviser during the second Keyblade War between Xehanort, seeing he has more knowledge of Xehanort's past and his plans.

However, I'm not entirely sure if I'm right or not; it all depends on what we will see in KH3.
 

Zettaflare

Shibuya
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
11,724
Awards
4
Location
California
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

That's because performing the ceremony does not cause anyone to inherit an actual Keyblade from the master. Only the power/ability to wield one is passed down and the person in question still has to be chosen by a Keyblade itself, the initial standard form being not decided by who is the Master that performed the ceremony.

Yen Sid performed the ceremony with Lea, granting him the ability to wield a Keyblade since Lea's heart was qualified enough. But Lea didn't gain a Keyblade from Yen Sid. The training Lea received from Merlin and the three fairies was actually a sped up process in order to increase the odds of Lea manifesting a Keyblade faster.
He didn't gain his own blade until the hilarious scene in the ending of DDD however.

We don't know if Mickey's Star Seeker isn't only a keychain for Mickey's personal blade, just like it is for Sora.
Theme-wise the Star Seeker would fit as Yen Sid's standard keychain.
I would imagine that yen sid's keyblade would be star themed, but not resemble the star seeker. Come to think of it, the only heroes who dont have keyblades at this point are donald and goofy. Maybe they should get ones in kh3
 

Roxie1563

Actress/Healer in Persona: Icebound
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Messages
4,367
Awards
20
Age
30
Location
Nix
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I would imagine that yen sid's keyblade would be star themed, but not resemble the star seeker. Come to think of it, the only heroes who dont have keyblades at this point are donald and goofy. Maybe they should get ones in kh3

No, I don't think so about Donald and Goofy.. Just no. I'm fine with King Mickey having one. But that.. That is just too much; I would rather have Donald use his Magic while Goofy use his Shield to bash some Heartless, Nobodies, and Unversed.
 

AdrianXXII

Dyslexic rambler
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
2,991
Awards
15
Location
Switzerland
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

@Alan Smithee - there be monseters here indeed.

The problem is that this is the only thing he sees about Aqua ignoring her other traits.
Aqua is one of the most focused and level-headed characters out of the main cast.
Comparing her to Xehanort is a bit bold though as her "bias" against darkness isn't nearly as strong as Xehanort's obsession. Not even Eraqus is as extreme as Xehanort is.
Like Adrian said, Eraqus overreacted once and tried to do something horrible, which he already regretted soon after while Xehanort does horrible things on a daily base.
The so-called "darkness bias" of Eraqus (and by extension Aqua) is often blown way out of proportion, often by but not always by darkness fans who seek to relativize Xehanort's evil by painting Eraqus evil as well.
Negative feelings about the darkness are not uncommon anyways because they all are beings of the Realm of Light. Light is all of their birth elements. I have yet to see any good character who actually embraces or "welcomes" the darkness. Even Riku in DDD makes pretty clear that he stands on the side of the light, rebuking Ansem's temptation to set his darkness free to rescue Sora. He agrees to not hold the darkness in anymore, but only to consume it and return it to light.
Yen Sid and Mickey also make it pretty clear during their discussions and explanations that their main concern is to protect the light and the world order, so there is nothing Aqua would actually disagree with.
So your second to last statement is completely correct, there isn't enough of a base to turn Aqua into an antagonist.

And Xehanort is actually proud of what he does.

I agree on that one, lol, but opinions are opinions. ;)
Yes, Sora DID succumb to his own darkness because that is what the Heart Unlocker-Keyblade he used for Harakiri does, it exposes your heart to your own darkness and causes it to overlfow.
After DDD we must be ready to expect nearly everything from Xehanort. He's a master schemer close to the caliber of Emperor Palpatine or David Xanatos.

I forgot that the sword did that I just remembered it unlocking ones heart, forgot that the unlocked heart also succumbs to darkness...
Yeah Xehanort is giving Xanatos a run for his money and he has a lot of it. I can't see the next Saga's villain being able to keep up.


Of course, that's also what sometimes bothers me a little when people tend to swoon so much over how tragic Xion's fate is, nearly completely forgetting the BBS-Trio who are suffering for ten years.
Even if Ansem assumed that, remember that he was attempting to kill Kairi, Donald and Goofy when Riku finally managed to intervene. Even if Riku didn't came back to his senses, the cultivated fixation on her as you pointed out would drive him to rebel against Ansem harming her as well.

Not only Riku, we can see that with nearly every main character in the series, even Terra befriended the lost boys, Peter Pan and Stitch and Ventus is probably the biggest friendship-freak in the entire series besides Sora.
That's for sure, lol, I wonder if we'll see some more fleshed out and more individualized battle styles of all the main trios in the next saga. Like if Riku keeps his strong darkness-based style, Terra's style becomes less-darkness focused with more earth elements.
From what I gathered Terra seemed to be mainly concerned to endure and bide his time to wait for an opportunity to strike at Xehanort when he doesn't expect it. Terra isn't the character personality-wise to make broad and complex strategic plans, his strengths are situated more on the tactical level. It is possible though that he formed a sort of long-term strategy with Eraqus depending on how active Eraqus' heart actually is.
Sure, learning that resistance might be a boon for any character that hasn't a heart of pure light, as DDD showed us that even if you're good-natured to the core and only want to help like Sora, others can exploit that to make your heart fall to the darkness due to pure stress and torment. Data-Naminé warned about that possibility already in Coded.

It's true, they all had to suffer sad fates, each fate is worse than death in it's own way.
Yeah I think that was one of Ansem's biggest mistakes at that moment, he tried to kill the person Riku was fixated on saving.

That's true. Aqua even became somewhat of a replacement mother to the lost boys, if memory serves right. Yeah I think Ven actually helped Sora develop that personality trait/ability.
I'd love them to each have their own style it would make multiple scenarios more rewarding.
Um... what's the difference between strategical and tactical? Anyways how much Eraqus' heart is truly active is really one of the big mysteries going on in that heart conflict. I think it's probably quite dorment as we didn't see him at all.
Yeah everyone aside of Kairi and Ven kind of needs the resistance, maybe Riku needs to open up a school... Joking aside DDD did prove that being to emotional and to an extend caring too much can lead to falling to darkness.

Correct, it is a mixture of those things, that's why I pointed out that Aqua's so-called "bias" against darkness is often blown out of proportion. Yep, her alarms may have going off but she failed to properly explain her concerns, so Terra at first completely misunderstood her true intentions.
They are both caring people indeed, but they act from different first moves: Sora acts emotional, with pure thoughts, as Ansem the Wise explains to Riku in DDD, while Aqua at first acts rational, more distanced and evaluating due to her training.
This was one of the focal points for her character though, being a model student whose sense of duty gets in conflict with her feelings for her friends. In the end, she manages to balance both out to a degree, but then the damage is already done.

*shrugs* I find all of their fates equally unpleasant. Ventus is incapable of doing anything with huge pain to boot which Sora can feel even worlds away, needing to find a resting place or face to fade completely away. Terra is a prisoner in his own body, and while he can "do" more than Ven is capable of, he is restricted to his own heart and has to deal with the big bad himself. Aqua may have full freedom of movement and control over her body (unlike the two boys), but all this doesn't mean anything because she's in a place where this is totally useless.
Getting her depressed would inevitably lead to one of Sora's famous cheer-up sequences, not to mention Aqua being a focused character would drop this very fast and get "to business" when she learns that Sora is protecting Ventus' heart inside himself and plans to free him from his torment.
I'm looking forward to more interaction between the three main trios in general. A meeting between Roxas and Ventus can turn out to be heartwarming, awkward and funny at the same time while Riku & Terra will definitely be a highlight, just like Sora and Ventus finally meeting face-to-face. After all, their hearts are very tightly linked since Sora's birth.

Yeah it was obvious that she wasn't able to really tell them what she meant and both kind of ran off before she could explain herself better.
I have the feeling her model student role has led to conflict in their past as well. It's really to bad that by the time she found a way to balance it out with her friendship, it was to late. Well at least she'll get a second chance.

Yeah, they definitely all have a fate worse than death, that I wouldn't wish upon anyone.
That's actually something I'd really like to see, it would give us a really nice interaction between Sora and Aqua. I see her wanting to return to CO as soon as possible to save Ven, so yeah her depression wouldn't last long.
Yeah all reunions will be interesting. But my personal favorite will probably be Aqua and Kairi. Though Sora and Ven's will be particularly interesting considering their bond has existed ever since Sora was born. I think the reunion between Lea and Ven should be funny.

Of course, in the end he was selfless enough to accept that sacrifice, even if it was forced on him and he wasn't given a choice unlike Xion, who did get a choice, which in regards to Sora's state was actually a bit reckless on Riku's part. That however on the other hand could be an indicator that Riku actually did see Xion as an individual on her own and didn't want to use force because he knew that in essence this would have been wrong.
Just for the argument's sake let's go down the radical route: Why should Roxas care if Sora stays in a coma or not? It wasn't his fault that Sora ended up like this, Naminé messed this up AND on top of it expected him to give up his life to fix HER mistakes.
Doing this in reverse no one cared if Roxas would be put in a total coma inside Sora just so Sora can live his life.
Sure, one can say that none of them knew at the time about Roxas having his own heart (except DiZ, who found out but kept silent because he didn't want to acknowledge it), but they also didn't know about Sora's super-connection powers during the time of Days/KH 2, so it remains a double-edged sword.
This very babbling of Xion in her last moments is really iffy anyways, as if it was just put in there to give a reason for Roxas to go on his rampage. What did Xion even intent with informing Roxas of this as her last wish but fails to mention "oh, but don't do it right now"?
Xemnas' and Xigbar's web of lies was really well woven, as even Yen Sid got fooled. Still, there were obvious hints like crying, which is impossible without a heart and Ansem the Wise even admitted later at TWTNW that he found out things but refused to acknowledge them.

Yeah it was risky on Riku's part, but I feel he personally needed to do it that way. I'm pretty sure he did see her as an individual, after all he saw his own replica as an individual as well.
Good point, but on an irrational side, If I knew my being awake would force someone else to be in a coma I'd feel bad about it. I could see Roxas feeling similar especially because he has ties to Sora, sure I doubt that he'd want to switch places.
I don't know if it was they didn't care, they were told this is how it's suppose to be. I see that as thre reason to why Namine went back to Kairi, she felt that's how it was suppose to be.
Yeah it's iffy, but if he'd been rational he'd have realized himself that he shouldn't just rush in.
Yes, that's another thing Xemnas and Xigbar had everyone fooled, well excepts Ansem who wouldn't accept it.

Well, it's not like Roxas had any other option as to come to terms with the status quo since it was already too late. Although that situation certainly cannot be called "living" as Roxas' consciousness, as indicated by Axel in their farewell scene in KH 2 Final Mix is forced into sleep, therefore his and Sora's roles are swapped and it is the primary reason why Sora can only see and interact with Roxas while dreaming. He isn't really living but in an eternal coma inside Sora's heart, just like Xion.
On that note, Young Xehanort's remark about a "prison" isn't totally off the mark despite Sora never intending any harm.
This behaviour of Riku I attribute partly to the impression that he might truly have seen more in Xion than just a puppet, and as he also voiced pity for Roxas more than once this can indicate that he was as uneasy with his actions as Naminé was despite not showing it as openly as she did.
We don't know if Naminé knew about the growing hearts-part, but her statements towards Roxas in KH 2 suggest otherwise. The only characters who knew about this during the time period of Days/CoM/KH 2 for sure were Xemnas, Xehanort and Xigbar while Ansem(DiZ) may have known but refused to see it.
True, she may not be as important anymore as the BBS-Trio, Lea or Roxas, but during CoM she clearly was on main character status.
This depends on how you define "existing". The journal and chronicles in DDD clearly say that Roxas "ceased to exist" and being in a forced coma inside another heart, I dunno if that can count as a true "existence".
In CO Axel had no real reason to do anything against Riku or Naminé as there wasn't really any immediate danger for him or his agenda from them.
That Riku allowed Naminé to go with Axel was actually his "payback" for Axel laying low on them in CO, as stated in the Final Mix-exclusive cutscene. Riku also didn't want to take out Naminé as wished by DiZ because he was already disgusted on how badly DiZ had treated Roxas and that he wanted to use Sora and himself as a tool in his revenge plans.
Xion definitely desired to be her own individual, as Naminé commented to Riku that she was impressed on how both Roxas and Xion were fighting for their independence.

Well he could still have not excepted it, wouldn't have changed anything, but still he'd have the option not to come to terms with it.
Yeah I guess you're right. I always believed that as KH2's ending suggested that he and Namine were still somewhat awake... This makes their scene in TWTNW kinda meaningless, seeing it wasn't true, unless their dreams can connect. I wonder if he and Xion can interact?
Well prison is a little extreme it's not like he's imprisoning them 2/3 of the hearts came to him willingly.
Yeah, personally I see her now being on Yen Sid's level of importance, so still important but not that important. Hm, I wouldn't mind if she'd become his apprentice/assistant after all she was a "witch" so it would kind of fit.
As I stated above he definitely saw more in her than a puppet. Yeah I guess you're right, Riku never was really good at showing how he feels so it's very likely.
Yeah, she probably hand waved her emotions away with the simple fact that she is special. Yeah it would seem so, seeing even Yen Sid thought they had no hearts.
Well it's not like the being that is Roxas has dissapeared, he's just sleeping in Sora's heart waiting to be awaken.

Well I'm sure the Org. would have wanted him to do something against them, but yeah on a personal level they were no threat to him.
Yeah it's been a long time since I saw those scennes so I forgot what they said in them. But yeah that would make sense. I'd also suspect that Riku personally didn't want anything to happen to Namine.
Let's hope Xion's wish is granted in KH3.

The needed attention to Kairi failed nearly the whole saga so far except KH 1 and 2. I just hope they don't rush some half-hearted stuff in for her in KH 3 or diverge so much focus on her that she becomes the Xion of KH 3, sucking away too much spotlight from the other important characters and plot points.
I would have preferred it if they kept genuine and thought-out development for the next saga instead of cramming up the finale if this one with even more stuff.

As for the list, nope, looks not like you forgot anyone, even the less likely options like Marluxia, Larxene and Demyx are included.

This is a monster as well, I really need to somehow shorten my explanations, rofl.

I'd say they even failed in KH2 to be honest. Yeah it wouldn't be right for them to focus to strongly on her, but I wouldn't mind if she were the deuteragonist or tritagonist of KH3's story.
Let's hope the next saga is more generous to our female heroes.

Yeah we seem to make a lot of these. They're fun but take forever to responed to. Also such long posts knock Firefoxes spellcheck out.

No, I don't think so about Donald and Goofy.. Just no. I'm fine with King Mickey having one. But that.. That is just too much; I would rather have Donald use his Magic while Goofy use his Shield to bash some Heartless, Nobodies, and Unversed.

Agreed, They should stay the way they are.
 

Chaser

Not KHI Site Staff
Staff member
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
23,050
Awards
70
Location
Australia
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Yes, Sora DID succumb to his own darkness because that is what the Heart Unlocker-Keyblade he used for Harakiri does, it exposes your heart to your own darkness and causes it to overlfow.
Who ?
 

Reagan Rayden

Exploding Man
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Messages
7,085
Awards
6
Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.


Harakiri is a form of suicide. Usually performed with a long blade or katana.

He is referring to Sora stabbing his heart in Hollow Bastion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top