Should Isa be killed, or saved?

[Samhain]

Except I'm not arguing that Saix is innocent. I'm arguing that he hasn't done anything worse than Axel, who never had to go through a redemption arc. He poofed back into existence and suddenly he was on the good guys team.

The same goes for the apprentices in KH DDD

Are we really suppose to believe the apprentices are good guys now? Give me a break. Dilan, Even, Aeleus, and Ienzo were all pieces of shit imo.

 

[Hakan Xatos]

Except I'm not arguing that Saix is innocent. I'm arguing that he hasn't done anything worse than Axel, who never had to go through a redemption arc. He poofed back into existence and suddenly he was on the good guys team.

Well that goes back to the part where Axel sacrificed himself to save Sora, opened the portal and told Sora where Kairi was. He didn't know that he would "poof" and be alive again, but he tried to do something good to make atonement. So when he did come back the logical option for Axel would be to continue striving to do good in order to redeem himself.

 

[Elysium]

He "atoned" (if you want to call it that, because I don't) to Sora--who wasn't even the target of his major crimes.

The same goes for the apprentices in KH DDD

Are we really suppose to believe the apprentices are good guys now? Give me a break. Dilan, Even, Aeleus, and Ienzo were all pieces of shit imo.

I agree. They are p.o.s. and so is Axel.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Except I'm not arguing that Saix is innocent. I'm arguing that he hasn't done anything worse than Axel, who never had to go through a redemption arc. He poofed back into existence and suddenly he was on the good guys team.

Except that Axel did realize he fucked up over the course of KH 2's story and at least partly tried to make amends, just like Ansem the Wise did as well. The difference for both of them being that it didn't get that much attention as Riku's prolonged version got. So he certainly did not just "poof back into existence" and suddenly was on the good guys team, this way was already started back in KH 2 as his mindset definitely changed.
Isa so far did not even once showed an ounce of remorse or feeling uneasy with the shit he pulled, but with him the main question remains if he does not because he does not want to or because he can't since he has no full control over himself.

Being eligible to being saved or not is not solely tied to the condition of having had a lengthy redemption arc, but also if the person in question not only acknowledges what they have done but also if he/she is willing to make up for it as far as it is possible.

Well that goes back to the part where Axel sacrificed himself to save Sora, opened the portal and told Sora where Kairi was. He didn't know that he would "poof" and be alive again, but he tried to do something good to make atonement. So when he did come back the logical option for Axel would be to continue striving to do good in order to redeem himself.

Exactly, it was also clear that by that time Axel regretted getting Kairi involved at all and thus he already was on a "redeeming path" there, which if I recall correctly was even before we get to know that DiZ/Ansem the Wise had a change of heart too.

 

[Hakan Xatos]

He "atoned" (if you want to call it that, because I don't) to Sora--who wasn't even the target of his major crimes.


I agree. They are p.o.s. and so is Axel.

So now you're nitpicking on the fact he didn't apologize to Ienzo and Evan? It may have be insinuated that he has, but they didn't make a cut scene of it. Who cares? Let's not forget that Axel's major crimes also helped those two become Somebodies again. That's all what Zexion and Vexen wanted although it came in an unorthodox way.

 

[Elysium]

Except that Axel did realize he diddlyed up over the course of KH 2's story and at least partly tried to make amends, just like Ansem the Wise did as well.

I'm not sure where you get that from. The only thing he apologizes for is kidnapping Kairi to try and get Roxas back. He didn't quit the Organization because he suddenly felt differently about his behavior, but because he didn't want to kill Roxas like he was ordered to do.

Who cares?

Nobody. That's why Saix does not need a redemption arc either.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Let's not forget that Axel's major crimes also helped those two become Somebodies again. That's all what Zexion and Vexen wanted although it came in an unorthodox way.

Yeah, but that certainly wasn't his intention at the time. Everyone was still under the assumption that getting destroyed as a Nobody was permadeath.

If I remember right, Axel offed Vexen and Zexion on Saïx's implied orders. It was part of their little plan to take over the Org, and Axel was clearing the way to the top for Saïx.

And yeah, no one NEEDS a redemption arc. It's not criteria for turning "good." But from what I've seen, you need something like it to convince the audience that the idea works. :I

 

[Hakan Xatos]

Yeah, but that certainly wasn't his intention at the time. Everyone was still under the assumption that getting destroyed as a Nobody was permadeath.

If I remember right, Axel offed Vexen and Zexion on Saïx's implied orders. It was part of their little plan to take over the Org, and Axel was clearing the way to the top for Saïx.

I understand that fully. The point I was making was that after Ienzo and Evan discovered they came back as Somebodies they probably couldn't think of another way that Axel could make it up to them except maybe a simple apology.

And yeah, no one NEEDS a redemption arc. It's not criteria for turning "good." But from what I've seen, you need something like it to convince the audience that the idea works. :I

Exactly. It's not necessary to have a story arc for redemption, but it's the simple fact that Lea has shown that he's tried to change in the series where Isa has not.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I'm not sure where you get that from. The only thing he apologizes for is kidnapping Kairi to try and get Roxas back. He didn't quit the Organization because he suddenly felt differently about his behavior, but because he didn't want to kill Roxas like he was ordered to do.

And that's exactly what brings about the start of change in Axel as before he was all "I always follow orders, Marluxia."
Even during Roxas' prologue he was still following the Organisation's orders.

It doesn't matter that this specifically the "only" thing Axel apologizes for but that he does admit to wrongdoing on his own part at all, as it serves as a starting point.

And yeah, no one NEEDS a redemption arc. It's not criteria for turning "good." But from what I've seen, you need something like it to convince the audience that the idea works. :I

That's why I pointed out earlier that it does not necessarily have to be a fully fledged out redemption arc, but the person in question acknowledging what they have done and showing a visual situation of him/her willing to make up for it as far as possible.

Of course there is also some subjective viewpoints in it as i.e. both DiZ and Isa/Saix have mainly hurt and wronged major "good guys" and beloved main characters while Axel "only" killed off the KH-equivalent of Professor Hojo, a mad scientist involved in heinous human experiments and a manipulative little son of a bitch who tried one hell of a mindrape against Riku after beforehand trying to use him as a puppet, thus many see that as two despicable villains getting their deserved comeuppance and the only people "upset" about it are rabid Organisation XIII fans and/or Axel haters.

 

[LingeringVanitas]

What do you mean saved? Their human versions don't even exist anymore.

 

[Elysium]

The fact that he would have been okay killing someone else, but not Roxas doesn't equate to him being good. I don't fall into the mentality that murder is okay as long as you kill people nobody cares about (ie, Vexen). I feel sorry for anyone with that kind of skewed morality.

 

[VoidGear.]

What do you mean saved? Their human versions don't even exist anymore.

Uhm...yes, they do?
They turned back to "humans" or...are you talking about something else?

 

[BlackOsprey]

What do you mean saved? Their human versions don't even exist anymore.

They do now. Saw em lying facedown in Radiant Garden during DDD.

The fact that he would have been okay killing someone else, but not Roxas doesn't equate to him being good. I don't fall into the mentality that murder is okay as long as you kill people nobody cares about (ie, Vexen). I feel sorry for anyone with that kind of skewed morality.

Axel was pretty much staying in-character: putting his own needs and plans ahead of anyone else's and being a morally grey wildcard. Oh, and doing his job as the Organization's designated assassin.
Obviously, you can't say that Axel is a "good person." But he's not really a horrible or evil guy either. And yeah, murder isn't right, but the victims in question weren't exactly innocent either...

I'm not declaring whether his actions were right or not, but those sorts of things do affect how those scenes are interpreted.

 

[Audo]

The fact that he would have been okay killing someone else, but not Roxas doesn't equate to him being good. I don't fall into the mentality that murder is okay as long as you kill people nobody cares about (ie, Vexen). I feel sorry for anyone with that kind of skewed morality.

I mean, we are talking about a fairy tale videogame. Is Sora an irredeemable person because he killed Organization members? Because he'll kill Xehanort? The Apprentices (including Vexen) killed dozens of people, destroyed their own world, and then experimented on children and harmed various other worlds, too. They are not exactly "good" people.

Also, the way people feel and talk when analyzing fiction isn't exactly 1:1 representation of their real-world morality, either.

 

[Elysium]

The victims don't have to be innocent for the act to be wrong--what in the world. And let's not even address the fact that both of their deaths were some of the most gruesome in the series and Axel reveled in it. Vexen being slashed across the back of the head (or burned to death in Re:CoM) and Zexion being absorbed into RR.

@Audo: Sora isn't wrong to kill someone because he's doing it to save people and because they are actively fighting against him. Axel killed people out of ambition, people who were not trying to kill him. Not the same by any stretch of imagination.

 

[Audo]

The victims don't have to be innocent for the act to be wrong--what in the world.

In the real world, that is definitely true.

But I have to wonder how you play any video game if you feel this strongly about that idea when it comes to fiction. Murdering other people and things is pretty much mainstream gaming's only verb.

 

[Hakan Xatos]

Let's not forget that he has no emotions, including guilt. So in his mind it would be "eh, I just rid the world of another lowlife" instead of "oh man, I just took someone's life." If Lea was in this situation his heart may evaluate the circumstances, conclude it would something he'd regret and not kill them.

 

[BlackOsprey]

I mean, we are talking about a fairy tale videogame. Is Sora an irredeemable person because he killed Organization members?

Most people would justify that by either bringing up his rather unstable mental state during CoM, or how the whole "they're Nobodies, they can't feel" thing that he believed during II. (The latter is pretty sketchy and I don't really like it, but that's how the game justifies it...)

 

[Elysium]

I edited my post because I hadn't seen Audo's post prior, so I'll post it again: Sora (or any hero really) isn't wrong to kill someone because he's doing it to save people and because they are actively trying to kill him and others. Axel killed people out of ambition, people who were not trying to kill him. Not the same by any stretch of imagination.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

What do you mean saved? Their human versions don't even exist anymore.

Uh what?
I'm not really sure from where you get that notion.

The fact that he would have been okay killing someone else, but not Roxas doesn't equate to him being good. I don't fall into the mentality that murder is okay as long as you kill people nobody cares about (ie, Vexen). I feel sorry for anyone with that kind of skewed morality.

I do not recall anyone actually designating Axel as being thoroughly "good" in this thread. I merely pointed out that he did began a stance change and we did not really see it further fleshed out.
DDD was a rushed procedure in any case so there might be some things that have been cut after all, as one can clearly see that the whole issue with Lea and Ienzo acting at least like workmates with each other was awkward at best when one knows the whole backstory.

Objectively spoken it is a skewed way of looking at things but it happens very often in fictional works as I've observed. Killing off people comes over as "ok" as long as they're villains or assholes and depending on how despicable they have acted throughout the whole work their demise might even be cheered upon.
I.e. who didn't cheer when Darth Vader finally threw the Emperor into the chasm in the Death Star or when King Joffrey finally bit the dust in Game of Thrones?

Even this very thread about Isa oozes with this.