Should Isa be killed, or saved?

[BlackOsprey]

Objectively spoken it is a skewed way of looking at things but it happens very often in fictional works as I've observed. Killing off people comes over as "ok" as long as they're villains or assholes and depending on how despicable they have acted throughout the whole work their demise might even be cheered upon.
I.e. who didn't cheer when Darth Vader finally threw the Emperor into the chasm in the Death Star or when King Joffrey finally bit the dust in Game of Thrones?

Even this very thread about Isa oozes with this.

Yeah... the main difference between the people who want him dead and the people who don't is pretty much built upon whether he was interpreted as a despicably unredeemable type or not.

 

[Audo]

Personally, I don't think he is inherently irredeemable. And as Tartarus points out, if you look at the story from Isa's perspective, yeah, a guy given a second chance to be less awful and make up for whatever shit he did isn't inherently a bad message to send. But I don't think we're meant to look at Isa from that sense. I think we're meant to see Isa as an extension of Lea and Lea's story. And in that case, I don't think it sends a good message that you should stick with people who abuse you (in the novels, Saix literally beats Axel to near-death towards the end, and this takes place before Axel's sacrifice (allegedly you can even see evidence of it in that battle as Axel's animations and stances portray him as severely weakened)) because, in the end, your love and friendship will make them better people. That's a pretty harmful message and it is one that is sent in a lot of media which is bullshit. I don't think the potential harm of that message outweighs the potential good of the other message (especially since that other message has already been shown a few times in the series through other characters, and done much better).

Again, I also think Lea/Isa works as a good counterpoint against the series' primary theme, which is something that is needed. We should have examples of friendships that fall apart, of relationships where friendship can't save everything, that there can be bad and harmful sides to friendships and so on. And having Isa get saved undermines that.

I also think having Saix's actions being handwaved away as Xehanort Influence also undermines his character, and those themes and I wouldn't like that development either. (I also don't think, so far, there is enough basis for that either. As Xigbar is shown to have free will, and Saix himself even actively plots against Xemnas/Xehanort. If he was being controlled by Xehanort that obviously would not happen lol)

It's just very clear to me that Lea is meant to be the focal character (the protagonist) and Isa is a foil for him. It is Lea's story. Axel is the one who grows and changes, who goes from an amoral selfish jackass, to one who resists orders, who finally stands for something, and sacrifices himself (and then, as a human, works to try and save the people he cares about). Saix, on the other hand, does not grow or change. He is a character that exists to support and influence Axel/Lea's story and not the other way around. And so when we're looking at what message is being sent, I think the message from the perspective of Lea's story is the one to focus on.

 

[Hakan Xatos]

That is pure awesomeness Audo! Nice breakdown

 

[Samhain]

Except that Axel did realize he fucked up over the course of KH 2's story and at least partly tried to make amends, just like Ansem the Wise did as well. The difference for both of them being that it didn't get that much attention as Riku's prolonged version got. So he certainly did not just "poof back into existence" and suddenly was on the good guys team, this way was already started back in KH 2 as his mindset definitely changed.
Isa so far did not even once showed an ounce of remorse or feeling uneasy with the shit he pulled, but with him the main question remains if he does not because he does not want to or because he can't since he has no full control over himself.

Being eligible to being saved or not is not solely tied to the condition of having had a lengthy redemption arc, but also if the person in question not only acknowledges what they have done but also if he/she is willing to make up for it as far as it is possible.



Exactly, it was also clear that by that time Axel regretted getting Kairi involved at all and thus he already was on a "redeeming path" there, which if I recall correctly was even before we get to know that DiZ/Ansem the Wise had a change of heart too.

Explain the apprentices then. How the hell are they suppose to be considered good guys? I mean, really?

 

[Elysium]

(in the novels, Saix literally beats Axel to near-death towards the end, and this takes place before Axel's sacrifice (allegedly you can even see evidence of it in that battle as Axel's animations and stances portray him as severely weakened))

Your point doesn't follow with what's actually shown in the games. The novels are great, but what actually happens onscreen is what's canon.

I don't agree that the series ever frames Isa as a villain of "Lea's story"; Lea never takes enough focus to have a story. Sora, Riku, Roxas, and TAV are the only characters who ever step into the main role.

 

[Audo]

The novels are great, but what actually happens onscreen is what's canon.

And it could very well change, I agree. But, it's hard to make that argument with KH2 in particular, where several of the novel scenes became canon cutscenes in KH2:FM+. The general rule is that secondary canon can be considered as such so long as the game doesn't contradict it. Plus, as I said, there is potential evidence to this in the battle itself, and Axel afterwards, in the game, also references the scene, too. There's also Saix's "we'll make sure he receives the maximum punishment". Like there is enough in the games to support the novel scene.

Plus that was only one example.

I don't agree that the series ever frames Isa as a villain of "Lea's story"

I never said he was a villain, I just said he wasn't the focal point. Lea and Axel are. (And I'm not sure why you think Saix doesn't take on an antagonistic role against him? It's present in Days a fair bit.) It's clear he has his own story, and I'm not sure why you'd argue otherwise. He has development, his own motivations and goals and changes through the story? He is considered a key character. He never becomes the player character or the sole focus of a game or anything like that, but that isn't to say he doesn't have his own story?

 

[Elysium]

And it could very well change, I agree. But, it's hard to make that argument with KH2 in particular, where several of the novel scenes became canon cutscenes in KH2:FM+. The general rule is that secondary canon can be considered as such so long as the game doesn't contradict it. Plus, as I said, there is potential evidence to this in the battle itself, and Axel afterwards, in the game, also references the scene, too. There's also Saix's "we'll make sure he receives the maximum punishment". Like there is enough in the games to support the novel scene.

And yet they chose not to include a beatdown of Axel by Saix. And to go back to an earlier point of yours--Saix follows orders of those above him to punish Axel = irredeemable/bad message, but Axel committing evil actions because of orders is fine?

EDIT: And following this same logic, Axel is a grey character and not a good person, so therefore anything bad done to him is also fine.

 

[Audo]

And yet they chose not to include a beatdown of Axel by Saix.

With a limited budget, you make concessions on what can be included.

And again, there is still evidence to it in the games themselves. How else do you explain Axel being maimed in the battle?

And to go back to an earlier point of yours--Saix follows orders of those above him to punish Axel = irredeemable/bad message, but Axel committing evil actions because of orders is fine?

I never said it was fine? Plus we don't actually have evidence that those were orders of those above him, and Saix is practically gleeful when he says he'll do it, lol. You were the one who argued intent being crucial, and Saix shows no remorse or internal conflict on beating his supposed best friend to death. Besides, my whole point has never just been individual acts and whether they are bad or good, whether or not Saix is "iredeemable" (I even said he wasn't?). My focus is on their relationship and the message that sends. And "stick with people who abuse you because you love for them will set them free" is never not going to be a bad message lol.

This isn't a case of Axel being a good or bad person, or Saix being a good or bad person. It's about their relationship to each other, and what messages that will send.

EDIT: Anyway, I feel like I've made my stance clear -- for me it's all about the relationship -- and it's pretty clear where this discussion is headed, so I'm just gonna opt-out now. Cheers.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Yeah... the main difference between the people who want him dead and the people who don't is pretty much built upon whether he was interpreted as a despicably unredeemable type or not.

Indeed, and, to quote Balthier of FF XII "I think the jury is still out on that one." as so far Isa's story (and his ultimate stance) can go either way, that's why I personally reserve any "judgement" on the character until we (hopefully) get a clearer picture in KH III.
I started out hating both Riku in KH I and DiZ/Ansem in KH II and yet got to warm up to both of these characters while explicitly not excusing all the shit they pulled or trying to sweep it under the rug so with Isa/Saix I'm going for a more neutral stance from the get go.

Explain the apprentices then. How the hell are they suppose to be considered good guys? I mean, really?

Last time I checked no one except rabid Organisation XIII fans actually considers them truly "good guys" at all, but they nonetheless have a chance for redemption just like Riku, Axel/Lea or DiZ/Ansem do depending on how their story is developed further (if there is anything developed at all that is).

And yet they chose not to include a beatdown of Axel by Saix.

Just because something is done off screen doesn't mean that it doesn't happen or is explicitly non-canon. Even the manga, which is lower in canon tier compared to the novels, does depict that very scene and Axel does look hunched over and has the "damaged" animations when he finally comes and fights alongside Sora in the game itself.

 

[Elysium]

This isn't a case of Axel being a good or bad person, or Saix being a good or bad person. It's about their relationship to each other, and what messages that will send.

The only thing bad Saix has done to Axel is supposedly beating him up offscreen (which is never even referred to onscreen) which Saix is ordered to do. I'm just using your logic on previous points to understand how this means Saix is an "abuser" considering you said 1.) That doing something bad to someone who isn't good anyway is okay. At the point Saix and Axel have this supposed beatdown, they aren't even friends anymore, because Axel already nixed their friendship for Roxas.

 

[KeybladeOrder]

I voted no in the poll but in reality I'm a little split. I want him to be saved but I also want him to be immediately killed off after. I understand why some people don't feel Isa should be saved, but because of how Xehanort implanted a piece of his heart into him, the line between Isa's true personality and the corrupted Xehanort-influenced side of him is pretty blurry. I feel like Isa should be saved only so he can have a "Dying As Yourself" moment. I want them to be able to remove the piece of Xehanort's heart in him just so he can die free of the old man's influence. (While writing my own KH3 prediction fanfic, I came up with the idea that Xehanort had implanted a fail-safe in each piece of his heart that would kill whoever it was inside if anyone other than him tried to remove it).

 

[Hirokey123]

He should be saved....but Xion should get to beat on him a little first and maybe Lea to but Xion is more deserving of Saix face pounding time. Roxas already got his face pounding time in Days.

 

[Tsunayoshi]

The optimistic side of me says "yes", but my natural pessimism says "hell no!". All I ask for if that Lea teams up with Sora for Isa's final bout. It wouldn't feel right if Lea doesn't get to have a death battle with Isa to settle their plot. ;c

 

[Krysta]

100% should be saved !!! ^^
I think, he is a misunderstand/tragic character that deserves to be saved and that there must be a reason for what he has done (I hope we get some answers in KH3). And not to forget that he (and the former Organization XIII) was tricked by Xehanort (maybe a litlle brainwashed, too) and believed the lie.
[Also I think that he is similiar to these Characters who has their own agenda / reasons to act like they do: Miles Edgeworth (Ace Attorney), Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia), Archer (Fate/Stay Night:UBW), Gin Ichimaru (Bleach), Snape (Harry Potter) and it`s unfair/wrong not to be saved, because of misunderstandings/unsolved mysteries.]
And I really hope/want to see Isa and Lea as friends again like they were in KH: Birth By Sleep. ^_^

 

[Empress Mitsuru]

Saix being saved would drastically reduce the impact of his character, I really hope he stays as a villain.

 

[Empress Mitsuru]

If Isa's saved, I'll be really disappointed.

 

[Krysta]

I will be disappointed if Isa won`t be saved. He should be saved along with Terra.
If Riku can be saved, then Isa and Terra could be saved, too.
I think that originally Isa was a good guy (just as Riku and Terra was) until Xehanort brainwashed/manipulated him and being possessed by darkness. So he deserves to be saved in the end.

 

[Morgenstern]

I have mixed feelings on this. Regardless, I do want to to see Lea and Saix battle it out during the climax, preferrable set to a KH-inspired remix of Final Fantasy XIII's Eclipse.

I'm currently leaning towards no, or rather that his being saved does not immediately cause his absolution and him living to the end. I feel like a "Redemption Equals Death", "Dying as Yourself" or simply dieing as an extension of Xehanort's will would be much more appropriate an end to him and his story

Regarding Ansem's apprentices, they at least have the excuse of being corrupted by Xehanort, (On the other hand the excuse in question holds no water since they didn't appear in Borginisation XIII's HQ where Lea saved Sora and that Isa was also in this scenario) With that said, I don't find them rather trustworthy yet and the whole time travel thing might throw another curveball at us.

Speaking of Eclipse, I would also find it a little fitting for him to wield the Lunar Eclipse or Total Eclipse keyblades, but I think that opens a different can of worms probably best saved for another thread

 

[Chocobo]

I do believe he was easily led like the sheep in the hurd, maybe he gives up his own life to save Lea

just a thought but weirder things have happened in the series

 

[Empress Mitsuru]

One of the reasons I don't want Isa to be saved is I feel it would drastically lessen the impact of his character.