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allenleonardo

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Perhaps when I'm not at work I'll try to sit down and respond but I'm gonna drop the novelization here and we can just compare the intent between Sora's reunion with Kairi and his reunion with Riku.

I wonder how that reunion would look with Kh3 grafic because at least in the games itself Sora does not look joyful. Even in the FM version he barely smiles at all. A big difference to his big smile afterwards.

I will look forward to seeing how the KH3 novel will cover all of this.
 

MelodicEnigma

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Perhaps when I'm not at work I'll try to sit down and respond but I'm gonna drop the novelization here and we can just compare the intent between Sora's reunion with Kairi and his reunion with Riku.

Code:
They defeated more and more Heartless, but wave upon wave replaced them, 
gushing endlessly out from the dark. Swinging her Keyblade, Kairi slashed through them 
until the last one remaining in front of her had dissolved into nothing.

"Wow! Nice work, Kairi!"

At the praise from Donald, she paused, then slowly faced them with a smile spreading on her face.

Sora, Donald, and Goofy were staring at her in undisguised awe.

"Kairi...It's so good to see you." Sora grinned back.

At the sight of his joyful expression, Riku's eyes narrowed as he smiled, too.

"You and Riku never came home, so I went looking for you," said Kairi.

"Sora and Kairi stepped closer to each other in tandem.

"I'm sorry," he murmured. Riku still wasn't back...

Just as he averted his eyes, Kairi launched herself at him.

"You're not a dream..." Her arms wrapped tightly around him.

Sora stalled in confusion for the briefest moment before his own arms returned the hug.

Looking on, Donald and Goofy couldn't help but grin.

But there was one more person—Riku—who turned away and started walking off.

He couldn't linger with them anymore. He didn't want Sora to see him like this and realize it was him.

"Wait—Ansem!" Letting go of Kairi, Sora called after the man in black. "I mean, 
Xehanort's Heartless—I never thought for a second we'd ever see [I]you[/I] again. 
Just thinking about all of the things you did make[s] me so angry..."

Riku's steps came to a halt. 

"But...but you saved Kairi, didn't you?" Sora went on. "I have to be grateful for that. So—thanks."

Instead of looking back, Riku resumed his steps with his head lowered.

Kairi ran up behind him and flung her arms around him. "Riku! Don't go!"

Sora froze. "Kairi...What did you just say?"

She tugged the man's arm and said the name again. "Riku."

"I'm no one. One a dweller of the darkness." He gently brushed Kairi away and tried again to escape.

"Sora, come over here," Kairi pleaded. "Say something to him."

Mystified, Sora approached Riku.

"Here—you'll understand." Kairi took Sora's hand and joined it with Riku's. "Close your eyes."

He did as she said, and in the darkness, he cold feel the warmth of their hands.

An image floated up behind his closed eyes...Riku. It was him.

"...Riku..." Sora looks up, holding tight to his friend's hand. "It's Riku...Riku is [I]here[/I]."

He knew that it was Riku's hand he clasped. It was bigger than the one he'd held a 
thousand times before, but in his heart, Sora felt it.

A knot of something he could barely define swelled in his chest. Clinging to that hand, 
to Riku's hand, Sora fell to his knees.

"I was looking for you...!" Tears spilled over and flowed down his cheeks as he pressed 
Riku's hand against his face.

How long had he been searching? How badly had he wanted to see Riku, to talk to him again?

And Riku was here. Here at last.

[I]I found you. Finally. I missed you. I've missed you for so long...[/I]

They'd been separated on Destiny Island, then they ended up fighting, and then they'd 
gone through that door together from opposite sides...and he'd been searching, searching 
for Riku all the while.

"C'mon, Sora," Riku chided him lightly. "Keep it together."

He looked up, his sight blurred with tears into the face that wasn't Riku's. It was Ansem's—no, 
Xehanort's face. But there was no doubt. He felt Riku's presence through their clasped hands.

"I looked [I]everywhere[/I] for you...!"

Riku stared down at Sora, still kneeling, still clutching his hand. "I didn't want you to find me."

Stung, Sora lowered his eyes again.

"But it was him helpin' us all along, wasn't it?" Goofy said cheerfully.

Baffled, Donald cocked his head. "[I]Quack?![/I]"

"Y'know, all those clues we kept findin'. The photo and the sea-salt ice cream...I bet it was Riku."
Goofy watched him for a reaction.

[I]The photo, the ice cream...And that probably wasn't all[/I], Sora thought. [I]I felt Riku in the Land of
Dragons and in the Beast's castle.[/I]

[I]For so long, I didn't know if he was alive, if I'd get to see him again.[/I]

"I was staring to worry you guys would never catch on, Riku said with a touch of amusement.
"Even with all of my hints, it was still you three, after all..."

"What's [I]that[/I] s'posed to mean?!" Donald protested.

Sora got to his feet and blurted, "But why didn't you let me know you were okay?!"

Riku averted his eyes, unable to meet the demanding stare Sora fixed on him. "...I told you.
I didn't want you to see me. Not...like this." He looked don at his open hands. "I fought
Ansem's—or Xehnort's darkness when it invaded my heart. And I won. But to use 
the power of that darkness, I had to become him myself..."

"Does that mean you can't change back?" Kairi sake cautiously.

"This fight isn't over yet," said Riku. "Until it is, I still need the power of darkness."

"Then let's finish it!" Sora's voice was full of determination. He flashed a smile at 
his friend in a different from. "You're still Riku, no matter what."

[I]It doesn't mater what he looks like. Riku is okay. I'm so glad he's okay. And I
found him again.[/I]

More tears were welling up in his eyes. Trying not to let Riku notice, he turned 
to Donald and Goofy. "So, how 'bout it? Are we ready for one last rumble together?
The king's waiting!"

"Yeah!" Donald agreed a bit louder than necessary. "Let's get going!"

He hugs Kairi in confusion. That about lines up with his reaction in KH2.

(BUY THE NOVELS! SUPPORT THE OFFICIAL RELEASE!)

And this only seems to continue on both in KH2 and KH3. Sora is one of the most emotionally intelligent characters in the series, so his reactions make no sense if he is meant to be in love.

If this is meant to suggest that romance is not an accompanying factor of the representation of Sora and Kairi's relationship, this isn't entirely correct.

For Sora and Kairi, there are many things that could be inferred here from the meaning of his confusion-whether by the sudden, off-guard hug the moment he averted his eyes, or by the words she muttered as she hugged him. Either way, Donald and Goofy grinning at the sight, same as Riku who expresses his own smile at the sight of Sora's joy, the scene represents a joyful reunion even if one had expected more. Simply not emphasizing the romance aspect of their relationship in this moment with explicit romantic action doesn't negate its relevance completely between the characters. The inclusion of romantic subtext brought upon this value into their relationship, this previously being just a close, intertwined friendship prior to something more romantically concrete to be understood. So, until another deviation (which would have to be a proven fact of platonic only feelings between them) is introduced, we can still reasonably assume that expression is still a part of their overall relationship. Besides, even in the novel, there are other moments that still show that Sora can be shy or bashful when it comes to his interactions or thoughts of Kairi-not all of these are described with confused emotional responses.

And for Sora and Riku, this emotional response is still fitting in vein of their friendship, obviously showing the distress of his search for Riku this whole time. Which, is pretty reasonable considering the last place he knows he for sure saw him. The deviation or romantic nature is represented here, but it does support their best friend as a close, emotional bond that in comparison to some media, isn't even shown between guys because of "masculinity" reservation. I'm happy that it was that impactful.

So, I would ask, how does this show a deviation into romance, rather than being explainable by their friendship?

It's also important to note that, while I do consider the novels as relevant sources of information, there are some moments that express more than what was conveyed in the game, thankfully—but, it also takes away certain expressions as well that were better implemented in the game. Whether this is for the sake of moving the story along at certain places or not is debatable.

On the other hand nearly all the scenes that have Kairi in it show how she cares deeply about Sora. She writes letters to him, she wants to protect him, she is the one that started the paopu scene. She holds him together through her power (even if its sadly in a passive way) and seemingly only hoped that Sora would make it. When they see each other in the light tunnel and Sora comments how he feels strong with her she is kinda flustered and then takes his hand. (She is truly the one that most of the time even starts these scenes, not Sora)

Again I am not saying that there were never hints of them in the games. The problem is that Kh3 stopped this from Soras side.

Combine this with Nomura not being sure if he should use the fruit sharing scene between them at all and you suddenly wonder if maybe Sora has grown out of his teenager love.

Because why would Nomura fear how people might see this scene? We have Rikus VA that does say that sharing a fruit is kinda romantic, which is the reason why Soras VA said that its not. So we already have an example where someone sees sharing a fruit as something completely romantic, especially between those two. So if Nomura wanted them to be a couple why not use the scene exactly for this? Why be afraid that it might be taken the wrong way? Even going to so far to nearly taking the whole scene out? The only reason where it would make sense is, if he sees them as only friends and feared that people would take this as romance. (Which quite a few did) Because if SoKai was the endgame then why would that be bad? Wouldnt that work as a great way to show their feelings?

I'm a bit confused here.

All those moments that show Kairi's connection with Sora aren't explicitly romantic actions. Yet, you recognize it as romance. I will just say that this is a part of my point in the first place. You recognize this simply because of romance has become a factor of the representation of their relationship—this effectively being a part of their characterization. (which to be more specific, we're talking about the nature of romance—this doesn't confirm that they're dating, as it doesn't have to for romance to exist) So, this means that when we see meaningful actions expressed between the characters, we know that it is a reflection of their relationship, which because of the romantic subtext, we know now includes elements of romance/friendship. The actions in and of themselves not being explicitly romantic doesn't change this meaning as it reflects the relationship, which reflects both of the aspects mentioned prior.

Just strictly talking about the actions themselves—you talk about Sora not initiating anything, but how does this reflect his change when he is still involved in these exchanges? Does it matter then who held whose hand first? Or who initiates the sharing of the Paopu fruit? If Sora had declined holding her hand, or declined even the action that has also been a representation of their relationship, then you'd be on to something that shows a deviation from the current relationship they have. But, this isn't the case, and in those moments, along with the ending show plenty that Sora cares much for Kairi as well. I'm not sure what it is you're meaning to conclude here.

As for the Paopu Fruit, I don't know man. Most of it is going to be speculation as to the ultimate reason why this was something he had to debate. But, I would compel that this was simply just to show that the specific action of sharing a Paopu Fruit, which can be done with anybody or the fruit itself represented by anybody (aka, BBS trio), isn't inherently romantic. That's it. The way that I personally see it, if the overall goal wasn't this, but instead to emphasis the strictly platonic emotions between Sora and Kairi as friends only, there are much better ways this would've been done and expressed in the game. Taking out the scene wouldn't change anything unless the change itself was actually integrated in the context. (as I said above, the context would need a deviation from romance being a null factor in their relationship to accomplish this) Otherwise, every other moment, including that scene, still works in tandem of the overall current representation of their relationship that, hasn't shown any change since romantic subtext was initiated in light of their interaction. In response to your earlier inquiry, this is why I'm using other games as example—the examples I give are the explicit romantic nods at their disposition with one another. KH3 doesn't retain clear examples of actions affiliated exclusively in romantic sense. (though, for what I can tell with my eyes, it seems one of their joined hands had interlaced fingers when they reunited in the ethereal-like space—which is more often than not an exclusive romantic way of holding hands with another person, but I digress)

Just to say, the VA's are not a voice of authority despite working with the directors, it has been proven time and time again, in different companies even, that VA's are fans too, and they'll have their own opinions about different aspects of the game. This doesn't necessarily determine that what they say is to be taken as fact, but just like other things, it can still be considered depending on the statement and situation. Since the game itself didn't specifically make the romantic factor of their relationship void specifically, there's no reason to consider it isn't relevant anymore. I think speculations on this meaning of change and how this plays out is fair, for any of the relationship dynamics between the characters, but it will remain as such until more context is given.
 
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allenleonardo

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I'm a bit confused here.

All those moments that show Kairi's connection with Sora aren't explicitly romantic actions. Yet, you recognize it as romance. I will just say that this is a part of my point in the first place. You recognize this simply because of romance has become a factor of the representation of their relationship—this effectively being a part of their characterization.

Just strictly talking about the actions themselves—you talk about Sora not initiating anything, but how does this reflect his change when he is still involved in these exchanges?

As for the Paopu Fruit, I don't know man. Most of it is going to be speculation as to the ultimate reason why this was something he had to debate. But, I would compel that this was simply just to show that the specific action of sharing a Paopu Fruit, which can be done with anybody or the fruit itself represented by anybody (aka, BBS trio), isn't inherently romantic.

Just to say, the VA's are not a voice of authority despite working with the directors, it has been proven time and time again, in different companies even, that VA's are fans too, and they'll have their own opinions about different aspects of the game.

I have stated that there had been romantic hints before in the games which could have made them the canon pairing but for me DDD and KH3 have dropped this for Sora while still having Kairi 99% of the time to care just about him. She is still feeling like the possible love interest but Sora does not feel that way anymore. Thats why I wrote once that I feel that this has turned one-sided and that maybe it was Sora that grew out of it. (I mean he does state that he does not understand love completely in the pirate world)

And nothing in KH3 has made them any more canon or near it. For me it has made it even more impossible for them to get romantically together because imo this could have been the game to finally show it but he didnt do that.

Well yes seeing how he does initiate contact with other people, I feel that it should not just be Kairi doing most of the stuff in this game. Heck even at the end of KH2 it was her that hugged him. I mean if it would not have been for Kairi they probably would not have shared a fruit either.

But as you said: If Kairi and Sora are meant to be seen as romantic even now in Kh3, then why should he have feared how people would take the scene with them? I mean its not like we have other characters who are about to share a real fruit so why be so strange about that? If SoKai is meant to happen then it makes sense to make the paopu scene into something romantic. If he is still on the fence with them or might not want to write romance for them then it makes kinda sense that he would not be sure how this comes over because it can create a certain hype about them.

Also it might be true that VA dont get to know everything but why should Soras VA not tell the truth about Nomura and about them voicing two different scenes?

So to make it short (because I ramble too much): I could see a possible romance in the past (even if it was completely fair to also just see them as pure friends) but with the end of KH2 and the hug and with DDD and KH3 I dont see that anymore and imo just because they once shared this does not mean that this has to be a thing or a theme for them forever. And thats why I believe that there is no true hint of SoKai in KH3 because for that you need both sides and I dont feel like Sora is in this anymore in a romantic way.

Of course they still could end together but for me it was never that well written from the start (even with the hints still there) and if they are sometime in the future truly 100% confirmed without them showing us a better friendship and relationship first then I will see this as a badly written romance.
 

MelodicEnigma

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I have stated that there had been romantic hints before in the games which could have made them the canon pairing but for me DDD and KH3 have dropped this for Sora while still having Kairi 99% of the time to care just about him. She is still feeling like the possible love interest but Sora does not feel that way anymore. Thats why I wrote once that I feel that this has turned one-sided and that maybe it was Sora that grew out of it. (I mean he does state that he does not understand love completely in the pirate world) And nothing in KH3 has made them any more canon or near it. For me it has made it even more impossible for them to get romantically together because imo this could have been the game to finally show it but he didnt do that. Well yes seeing how he does initiate contact with other people, I feel that it should not just be Kairi doing most of the stuff in this game. Heck even at the end of KH2 it was her that hugged him. I mean if it would not have been for Kairi they probably would not have shared a fruit either. But as you said: If Kairi and Sora are meant to be seen as romantic even now in Kh3, then why should he have feared how people would take the scene with them? I mean its not like we have other characters who are about to share a real fruit so why be so strange about that? If SoKai is meant to happen then it makes sense to make the paopu scene into something romantic. If he is still on the fence with them or might not want to write romance for them then it makes kinda sense that he would not be sure how this comes over because it can create a certain hype about them. Also it might be true that VA dont get to know everything but why should Soras VA not tell the truth about Nomura and about them voicing two different scenes? So to make it short (because I ramble too much): I could see a possible romance in the past (even if it was completely fair to also just see them as pure friends) but with the end of KH2 and the hug and with DDD and KH3 I dont see that anymore and imo just because they once shared this does not mean that this has to be a thing or a theme for them forever. And thats why I believe that there is no true hint of SoKai in KH3 because for that you need both sides and I dont feel like Sora is in this anymore in a romantic way. Of course they still could end together but for me it was never that well written from the start (even with the hints still there) and if they are sometime in the future truly 100% confirmed without them showing us a better friendship and relationship first then I will see this as a badly written romance.

I definitely do not agree that Sora alone not initiating certain contact is the sign that those feelings aren't there. They simultaneously reach out for each other when they reunite in the ethereal space (as well as simultaneously lingering with one of their hands), they are both willing holding each other's hands at the very end (don't know who started it), and, he also willingly hugs her to protect her in the Keyblade Graveyard. If we're speaking about the merit of actions alone, this still carries the weight of their bond regardless who initiates what. Personally, that's just picking at straws. Besides, who initiates contact is not really an ultimate rule to abide by when making that type of conclusion as him still willingly being involved in those intimate interactions, along with the moments in which he initially shows emotional responses that displayed his care for her (for example outside of above, showing him reaching for her in the first "death", in his comments about her in the ethereal space, her death the second time, and his description of his journey about her at the end)—Sora still retains the relevance to the representation of their relationship here in KH3. The deviation of it changing from that is still a moot point outside of your personal way of seeing those scenes that happened. But if you're sticking with your personal outlook, that's fine. Agree to disagree anyway.
 
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allenleonardo

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For me its just that suddenly he never thinks about her even when he is with real couples. (So many scenes where he could just mention her) He does not mention her in the loading screen too, he does not get teased at all about his love for her. We see no reaction to her change and on top of all of that he reacts completely off at the fruit scene and is not once the one that goes out of his way to do anything romantic with her.

All of the other actions like protecting her from an attack does not necessarily feels romantic. He goes quite far to protect his friends and Kairi is one of his best friends. If it was meant to show romance then honestly that would just make Kairi even more into just a plot device there to show stuff.

So in the end we will see what Nomura will do with them. I at least doubt that we will get real romance with them now and I would honestly be happy with that. Because if I could chose I would have all of them just be very good friends and take the time to show their bonds of friendship. And let Kairi be her own character and not a plot device for Sora to save.

But yeah this will always be of course a subjective topic. But still thanks for the deep discussion even if we dont see eye to eye in this. :)
 

Face My Fears

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You're using a lot of fancy schmancy big words here, but what your argument boils down to is that... the underlying romance in earlier games implies that Sora is straight. Except... nowhere in your post do we actually see some kind of subtextual romance. The rest of your post, and your argument, falls apart when you consider that at no point in any Kingdom Hearts game is it implied that Sora and Kairi's relationship is anything but platonic. We simply assign romantic subtext to scenes without any because we feel like that's what we're supposed to do. We see a male and a female character who clearly care a lot about each other, but there's absolutely no sexual tension, or romantic tension there at all. Only what we project onto the characters. As Oracle has said many times in this thread, Sora has taken similar actions towards Riku that he's taken towards Kairi. It's just that many people, used to heteronormative relationships, see Riku and Sora as "just friends". Kairi and Sora were childhood best friends as well. If Sora and Kairi can go from best friends to a romantic pairing, why can't Riku and Sora? What "romantic content" has Sora displayed towards Kairi that he hasn't towards Riku? For both of them, he cries over their disappearances, worries about their safety. He thinks about them when they're not with him. He holds their hands.

And seriously Eel, I'm disappointed. Just because Kairi is, as you say, "a GIRL" doesn't automatically make her a love interest for Sora.

I seriously ask you, if you intend to prove that there is romantic subtext in Sora and Kairi's relationship, and build your argument from there, please provide examples of clear and present proof.

There is way more evidence in-game that Sora is not gay/bi. Of course he has no confirmed sexuality because KH is not a game/story about romance/sex, so getting confirmations on a character's sexuality is probably never going to happen. Even if Sora got with a female character, we would never know if he were bisexual.

What compels me to say that Sora is straight is the evidence in game that he likes Kairi AND the fact that this game is run by Square Enix/DISNEY. There is no way either of those companies would ever have an out gay main character.

I liken the Sora/Kairi relationship to the ENGLISH DUB relationship between Yugi/Tea or Joey/Mai from Yugioh. The creator of that series said that the show was about friendship, so he never wanted to go into romance, but it was CLEARLY there even though characters never said it or didn't show as much "affection".
 

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So, when we see Sora missing Kairi, or crying over her, or holding her hand, or expressing emotion for her—the context has set this meaning to abide by the nature of the current relationship (its current meaning), which has been established to be in the realm of friendship/romantic expression as of now. Of course, there are some actions that are more exclusive in the expression of romantic nature, true, but this not being displayed as of yet for the purpose of being concrete and on "the surface" doesn't negate or devalue the relevant elements between them that still represent the affiliating tones set for them right now.
I'm sorry, but a canon relationship is always concrete. If you don't think so, tell that to every Disney movie ever. Or every other Nomura romance for that matter. Yuna and Tidus' relationship, for example, is not vague in any sense whatsoever. KH2 was lacking in romantic scenes and undertones in comparison to KH1. Even with both KH1 and KH2 as a backdrop, KH3 is even more lacking in providing a romantic context to the scenes there are between Sora and Kairi than KH2 was. I honestly don't believe you or anyone else really if you're going to argue that the scenes between Sora and Kairi in KH3 would be written the way they are rather than something more explicit if we're intended to see them in a romance with one another.

The foundation for a romance between Kairi and Sora was set in KH1. That I agree on. It's the reason I expected SoKai to be blatantly confirmed in KH3--it wasn't. We are nearly 20 years and around 7+ games later. The series has been altered entirely--in the way it utilizes Disney characters/worlds, in its graphics, its world design, entire aspects being dropped almost entirely (original worlds / Final Fantasy characters). To me, it's a pretty flimsy argument that KH1 alone confirms the basis for a romance that still has never transpired at this point. It seems obvious that Nomura has dropped romance as a plot/theme entirely, instead focusing on friendship only. That explains the preponderance of trinities everywhere, even where they don't need to be (like with the mystery girl between Isa and Lea). It's a perspective other people argued to me over the years when I said I was resigned to SoKai being confirmed outright in KH3. Since that didn't happen, now I know they were right.
 

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I'm sorry, but a canon relationship is always concrete. If you don't think so, tell that to every Disney movie ever. Or every other Nomura romance for that matter. Yuna and Tidus' relationship, for example, is not vague in any sense whatsoever. KH2 was lacking in romantic scenes and undertones in comparison to KH1. Even with both KH1 and KH2 as a backdrop, KH3 is even more lacking in providing a romantic context to the scenes there are between Sora and Kairi than KH2 was. I honestly don't believe you or anyone else really if you're going to argue that the scenes between Sora and Kairi in KH3 would be written the way they are rather than something more explicit if we're intended to see them in a romance with one another.

The foundation for a romance between Kairi and Sora was set in KH1. That I agree on. It's the reason I expected SoKai to be blatantly confirmed in KH3--it wasn't. We are nearly 20 years and around 7+ games later. The series has been altered entirely--in the way it utilizes Disney characters/worlds, in its graphics, its world design, entire aspects being dropped almost entirely (original worlds / Final Fantasy characters). To me, it's a pretty flimsy argument that KH1 alone confirms the basis for a romance that still has never transpired at this point. It seems obvious that Nomura has dropped romance as a plot/theme entirely, instead focusing on friendship only. That explains the preponderance of trinities everywhere, even where they don't need to be (like with the mystery girl between Isa and Lea). It's a perspective other people argued to me over the years when I said I was resigned to SoKai being confirmed outright in KH3. Since that didn't happen, now I know they were right.

This is what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you can think the romantic elements are not there just because they're lacking but when the series does put emphasis on it when it becomes the focus, you just ignore it outright or make excuses, especially in KH2 when it literally told right in front of you in a lot of different scenes.

Badly written is one thing but lacking is a strong word; meaning barely there at all. Which it is very much there, thats why a lot fans defend it when others jusy to deny it and use Noruma's bad writing as an excuse for their personnal perspective when thats not whats objectively happening.

Even KH3, were its the worse its ever been written, is not changed in this regard since there are several scenes that can be taken as such and anyone denying I feel like just have blinders on.

Also, people need to say they think is the defination of confirmed. To me its an obvious attraction and nothing else. For others, it has to be kissing full on the mouth in order for people to quit arguing about it, which the latter will probably not happen until the series is done.
 
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Face My Fears

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I'm sorry, but a canon relationship is always concrete. If you don't think so, tell that to every Disney movie ever. Or every other Nomura romance for that matter. Yuna and Tidus' relationship, for example, is not vague in any sense whatsoever. KH2 was lacking in romantic scenes and undertones in comparison to KH1. Even with both KH1 and KH2 as a backdrop, KH3 is even more lacking in providing a romantic context to the scenes there are between Sora and Kairi than KH2 was. I honestly don't believe you or anyone else really if you're going to argue that the scenes between Sora and Kairi in KH3 would be written the way they are rather than something more explicit if we're intended to see them in a romance with one another.

The foundation for a romance between Kairi and Sora was set in KH1. That I agree on. It's the reason I expected SoKai to be blatantly confirmed in KH3--it wasn't. We are nearly 20 years and around 7+ games later. The series has been altered entirely--in the way it utilizes Disney characters/worlds, in its graphics, its world design, entire aspects being dropped almost entirely (original worlds / Final Fantasy characters). To me, it's a pretty flimsy argument that KH1 alone confirms the basis for a romance that still has never transpired at this point. It seems obvious that Nomura has dropped romance as a plot/theme entirely, instead focusing on friendship only. That explains the preponderance of trinities everywhere, even where they don't need to be (like with the mystery girl between Isa and Lea). It's a perspective other people argued to me over the years when I said I was resigned to SoKai being confirmed outright in KH3. Since that didn't happen, now I know they were right.

Just because it hasn't happened in KH3, doesn't mean that it won't happen. Xion is literally forgotten by everyone and she returns. RIKU REPLICA, of all people, reappeared in KH3 when plot wise his return was never even alluded to in games prior to KH3. I would agree with you that Nomura's writing style is erratic and "all over", but that doesn't mean something basically confirmed in KH1 is dropped because there wasn't a kiss or an "I love you" in KH3.

How can KH1 confirm Sora/Kairi being canon by having them both want to share the papou fruit... but when they actually DO share the papou in KH3 - that's not confirmation? Or does the relationship lose all canon confirmation because "it's been 20 years and +7 games etc etc etc" and sharing the papou isn't good enough anymore due to some unspecified statute of limitations on canon relationships in video games?
 

kaseykockroach

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All this talk of canon and I'd rather just watch Sora and Kairi get shot out of a cannon.
 

SuperNova

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If Kairi’s future is just being a delegated love interest I rather she just stay as a benchwarmer so I’m not disappointed again when KH4 inevitably lets me down with her writing.
 

Elysium

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This is what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you can think the romantic elements are not there just because they're lacking but when the series does put emphasis on it when it becomes the focus, you just ignore it outright or make excuses, especially in KH2 when it literally told right in front of you in a lot of different scenes.

Did I ignore it? :confused: No, I didn't. I acknowledged there are romantic elements in KH1*. In KH2, there's the dancing fantasy where Sora blushes afterwards. There aren't any blatant romantic scenes in KH3, despite the fact that there should be if Nomura wanted SoKai to be canon.

* Many of which have been given different meaning later on than they had then, which seems like another example of the shift away from romantic elements altogether by Nomura. The paopu fruit is the main example. KH1 broadstrokes the paopu fruit as a romantic gesture; this is part of the threat Riku makes to Sora, over who will share the paopu with Kairi first, etc. In 3D, they decide to make the Paopu fruit a symbol that's a part of Riku and Sora's shared Keyblade, which seems to take away the previous depiction of it as a purely romantic symbol (at least in consideration of the fact that a slash pairing like SoRiku is impossible in a mainstream game).
 

MelodicEnigma

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I'm sorry, but a canon relationship is always concrete. If you don't think so, tell that to every Disney movie ever. Or every other Nomura romance for that matter. Yuna and Tidus' relationship, for example, is not vague in any sense whatsoever. KH2 was lacking in romantic scenes and undertones in comparison to KH1. Even with both KH1 and KH2 as a backdrop, KH3 is even more lacking in providing a romantic context to the scenes there are between Sora and Kairi than KH2 was. I honestly don't believe you or anyone else really if you're going to argue that the scenes between Sora and Kairi in KH3 would be written the way they are rather than something more explicit if we're intended to see them in a romance with one another.

The foundation for a romance between Kairi and Sora was set in KH1. That I agree on. It's the reason I expected SoKai to be blatantly confirmed in KH3--it wasn't. We are nearly 20 years and around 7+ games later. The series has been altered entirely--in the way it utilizes Disney characters/worlds, in its graphics, its world design, entire aspects being dropped almost entirely (original worlds / Final Fantasy characters). To me, it's a pretty flimsy argument that KH1 alone confirms the basis for a romance that still has never transpired at this point. It seems obvious that Nomura has dropped romance as a plot/theme entirely, instead focusing on friendship only. That explains the preponderance of trinities everywhere, even where they don't need to be (like with the mystery girl between Isa and Lea). It's a perspective other people argued to me over the years when I said I was resigned to SoKai being confirmed outright in KH3. Since that didn't happen, now I know they were right.

If actions that are, in nature, shared between the spectrum of romance and platonic are given meaning then by those who perform them, then there’s nothing left to discuss here. The meaning is set by the context, which in this particular case, is the aspect of what has been established as the representation of Sora and Kairi’s relationship, which is still defined in the parameters of friendship and romance that have been shown throughout the series. KH1, actually, doesn’t set the tone of romance specifically as much as it does that their bond is distinguishable from the others—this was what the legend of the Paopu Fruit served to do in the first game. It's the other moments in CoM and KH2 that shed a specific light of romance onto the two characters already strong connection established in KH1.

Concentrating on either the friendship or romantic aspect, when both are a part of the representation, does not negate the other unless the other is purposely made to be void in a moment that signifies this change. Nomura choosing to emphasize the friendship aspect more for all characters, which was never a bad idea to begin with, doesn’t immediately negate the trait of romance to the particular relationships that reflected this—the contrary to this as some type of logical necessity isn’t a good approach in understanding this application man. Even having the meaning of the Paopu applied to other characters was also not a bad idea either, showing that "intertwined" hearts can be applied to multiple types of relationships. Not showing explicitly romantic actions such as kissing (on the lips), dating, or confessions of romantic love yet between two characters doesn’t negate the other romantic undertones implemented in the past. I’m being rather blunt here, but there’s no other way to state this.

On a personal level, I see it as trivial. If your whole point of romance not being a representation of their relationship anymore is concluded by the lack of explicit behavior, then what value then does all their actions in the game have? Why configure this recognition for yourself to be purely platonic for the sake of it not being explicitly romantic? What does this say for commonly used characters who have strong friendships but exhibit behavior that shows they have a crush on each other? I would most certainly argue that if the intention was to show explicit platonic or explicit romantic connotation, the scenes in KH3 we received and the interactions displayed between them would have been different in general, with the intention to show they are explicitly friends—which is not the reflection of their established relationship prior to KH3. But, they didn’t do that, and it didn’t change the state of what we already knew. For you, all it did was leave you unsatisfied and unbelievable to the specific romantic emphasis not placed. Which is fine, and if your whole outlook on their overall relationship is to have it analogous to the romantic development of other characters who focus on that aspect primarily, then your dissatisfaction is reasonable. I get it as it failed your expectations, but at the same time, I think it's unwarranted to then conclude it isn't still set as a trait between them. Nothing has changed.

Nomura showing that friendship, the close bond that they share in symbolism of the Paopu Fruit legend is a very important thing for Sora and Kairi. This shows that their closeness is more than just the romantic undertones that have been used in the series. I don’t see what is so wrong with emphasizing this over emphasizing the romance as, in a way, it goes against the grain of traditional spearheading of romantic value in male/female relationships. With it being introduced though, we want to see the romantic emphasis and the romantic development between these characters because it was introduced. And, that’s a reasonable expectation. But, some authors do what they do for the sake of the overall tone of a series. If Nomura’s goal is to make friendship the stronger force between the characters in the series, then so be it. But, this doesn’t devalue the other details that represent each individual relationship until the context decides to set it's existence out.

Either way, you’re entitled to that for yourself, but, it’s going to take more than just your or anyone else's individual outlook on this matter to have this be negated in the immediate story in full, outside of your own satisfaction. For it to be confirmed that romance is no longer a factor on the representation of their relationship, the context is going to have to show this change, and again, we’ll have to wait and see if it does.
 

Elysium

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Not showing explicitly romantic actions such as kissing (on the lips), dating, or confessions of romantic love yet between two characters doesn’t negate the other romantic undertones implemented in the past. I’m being rather blunt here, but there’s no other way to state this.
Then I'll also be blunt and say you're circling the drain. This does nothing to deflect from the point I made 3 pages ago that if SoKai was intended to be romantic at this point, KH3 was the moment when it would have culminated considering KH3's role as the bow on top of the Xehanort saga. That also makes it the bow on top of these initial romantic elements from those early games that you're hanging your entire argument on. Nomura chose not to bring those moments full circle. Why do you think that is? What is the natural conclusion to take away from the absence of a blatantly romantic scene in this game taking into account KH3's role?

You're free to hold whatever opinion you want in regards to ships, but SoKai is not canon at this point. That's what this whole discussion is about, isn't it? What's canon? True, it still is the most likely ship to ever become canon, but by the end of KH3, no romance has been confirmed between any characters.
 

MelodicEnigma

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Then I'll also be blunt and say you're circling the drain. This does nothing to deflect from the point I made 3 pages ago that if SoKai was intended to be romantic at this point, KH3 was the moment when it would have culminated considering KH3's role as the bow on top of the Xehanort saga. That also makes it the bow on top of these initial romantic elements from those early games that you're hanging your entire argument on. Nomura chose not bring those moments full circle. Why do you think that is? What is the natural conclusion to take away from the absence of a blatantly romantic scene in this game taking into account KH3's role?

Your expectation of KH3 being the moment of climactic, romantic confirmation is the basis of your argument—which I have proven isn't reflective on what is still currently integrated between the specified relationship. If Sora and his friends journey was never meant to be concluded in the Xehanort Saga, why do you retain this expectation?

The only natural conclusion that is supported by the story is that those feelings between them still haven't had their full recognition in the series, that's it. Everything else you're saying is speculation and your perspective on failed, self-applied expectations. I'm not saying anything here that is contrary to what is known within the story at this present time.
 

Elysium

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You haven't proven anything. Your only argument here is that there will be more games after KH3, therefore KH3 can't be seen as the "conclusion" of anything--when in fact it is undeniably intended as the conclusion of the Xehanort saga and everything that happened within that saga. What comes next are new plotlines.

Perhaps Nomura will pick romance back up in KH4, but that's difficult to believe considering he hasn't touched it since 2005. And not even in a game like KH3 where he had the perfect opportunity to echo the romantic elements in KH1 if he had any intention to anymore.
 

MelodicEnigma

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You haven't proven anything. Your only argument here is that there will be more games after KH3, therefore KH3 can't be seen as the "conclusion" of anything--when in fact it is undeniably intended as the conclusion of the Xehanort saga and everything that happened within that saga. What comes next are new plotlines.

Where did I say it can't be seen as the conclusion of anything?

Don't twist my words man.

KH3 is the conclusion of the Xehanort plot line specifically, this does not mean that it is the conclusion of the bonds between the characters—this being significant of the characters having more story to be told past this arc's ending. If KH3 was intended to be the last game featuring these characters, I would agree that this game's necessity of tying up loose ends would be warranted. But, as the characters are carrying over into the next plot line, so is their characterization and character relations, which are still susceptible to growth and change. If you want to believe that it won't be hit on, that's fine, but this holds no bearing on it still being a relevant factor there to be dealt with still.

__________________________________________________

(TLDR: Sora/Kairi's potential romantic development is fine in my eyes, Nomura's writing is strange at times, and I'm out of this, but this was good chats)

Anyway, to add as a final note for myself in this thread, I just don't see why ultimately, it is such a huge issue here in this gauge of the aspect of what we're considering canon in appliance of the word. The usage of "canon" and "confirmation" for Sora and Kairi being by the action of dating or the actions/dialogue that clearly state a conscious acknowledgement between both parties of romantic feelings for each other—this is honestly reasonable, actually. Especially if the expectation is that of traditional romantic stories that usually results in these type of climactic, concrete expressions. But, the usage of "canon" also applies to how Sora and Kairi's distinguishing friendship has shown moments/signs of specific romantic implication about them in the series multiple times, including even just a simple paralleled credit scene in 2.8. Romantic subtext being used to represent their relationship deems this statement true, whether one personally finds those moments to be a big deal or not. It is also true, that KH3 didn't emphasize explicit romantic actions between them. Can't deny that either technically, especially if abiding by the expectations above. Yet, another truth, is that KH3 didn't emphasize explicit platonic actions or fully negate the existing romantic undertones that have been associated with their relationship up to this point. We're still stuck in the same state their relationship has been in, and from my perspective, KH3 did a good job in representing this current bond regardless of whether one wants to see their interactions as an emphasis of friendship or romantic nature.

I for one believe its great that the moments between Sora and Kairi are actions/dialogue that fit along the spectrum of both romantic and platonic meaning, as this fits the current expression of their relationship of friendship+romantic undertone meaning. One could spend hours and days here arguing and analyzing all the contextual/subtextual moments between them in KH3—whether some moments reflect common romantic tones used in storytelling for how the scenes played out, or, if their moments were all, without a shadow of a doubt, strictly platonic actions. I have no interest in doing this back and forth anymore, but I will stand my ground, strictly speaking to the moments expressed between them, that these two characters represented their current bond quite well from the interactions or dialogue they do have about each other (aka, including where each other isn't present). All their moments, all the way up to their final scene together and how it was structured doesn't negate the openness of romantic possibility that has already been set to them by the context—the context of their specific relationship giving us the understanding that these actions between them are open to romantic influence. I know very well that some people would argue that the tone/atmosphere in their final scene was conducive of common romantic motifs as they watched it unfold—both basked against the sun as they sat on the tree where they shared a moment that signified that their hearts are "intertwined" (which, the actual scene supports this meaning in both japanese and english text, still, the Paopu Fruit isn't strictly romantic or platonic), their hands in contact with each other as they sit there, a close up of Sora adjusting and securing his hold onto her hand as they retain eye contact until he disappears, Kairi left showing tears and dejection from this. A lot of people would have no problem recognizing this scene as being influenced by romanticism, being convinced that this, at the very least, has every right to be open to romantic interpretation if the context deemed it to be fitting. Then, some are convinced everything about this scene is purely, without a doubt, platonic in nature since the actions themselves aren't strictly platonic or romantic, and Sora has held other people's hands in different contextual situations all together. Then of course, some don't give a shit at all about any of this because everytime they see Kairi now their eyes turn bloody red with rage at her overall usage in the story—romance or platonic means nothing if this is what her character amounts to in the story. It's all over the place with the KH online community, expectantly so, and there are certain amounts of merit to all cases.

With Kairi and Sora's relationship still being static with friendship+undertones of romance status, personally, I find this scene to be an acceptable way of emphasizing the closeness the two characters share—this being the very least of what I could say about it along with the other scenes between them. I will stand that in my personal perspective, it just doesn't make any coherent sense that if Nomura's goal was to make Sora and Kairi's relationship in this game strictly platonic, with no doubt of romance not existing between them, that all of their scenes together in this game would've played out the way that they did—with actions that aren't strictly platonic in nature, and without addressing the change and negation of any romantic feelings anymore between them in the context of the game. I can't fathom that line of thought or writing "consistency". It makes no sense to me. The only way that I can understand this with the information that we have in certain truths of the context is that it possibly was the act of sharing a Paopu Fruit itself—and in extension, the overall Paopu Fruit representation that other characters now share since KH1 (BBS trio, Sora and Riku—both under platonic nature by the context)—that Nomura was particularly worried about receiving a strictly romantic tone in an absolute sense. That, rather than completely setting their specific relationship to not having any romantic undertones at all anymore. If that was the case, it'd make more sense considering that, unlike all the other actions displayed between Sora and Kairi, sharing a Paopu Fruit has been commonly deemed as a strictly romantic action by a good chunk of the fanbase since this action alone is represented by Sora and Kairi primarily. With how much has changed since KH1, being attentive to the Paopu Fruits overall meaning and presentation seems warranted at this point.

(Also, quick note about the Paopu Fruit representation of Sora and Riku, because I didn't respond to it earlier: Their connection with the Paopu Fruit and Dearly Beloved is still explained by the best friend nature of their relationship—none of these two things represent a strictly romantic value or deviation from platonic meaning. Dearly Beloved, which title-wise represents love in general, being used to represent their hearts being in tune with one another doesn’t imply a change from them being best friends (Mickey even implies this is due to their friendship anyway), this being the same way that eating a Paopu Fruit, which signifies their hearts being intertwined, wouldn’t change a friendship either since it isn't strictly romantic. For Sora and Riku, these two ideas seem to purposely correlate with each other by showing that their combined (intertwined) Keyblades have the Paopu Fruit keychain—showing how their hearts are indeed connected just as the legend says, and just as Mickey pointed out with the usage of Dearly Beloved. However, when it comes to the act of sharing a Paopu Fruit, this is still something that is mainly represented by Sora and Kairi.)

Overall, about all that and his writing: I don't know. And, Nomura needs to be better at writing. Maybe these are truths too. Ugh. Anyway, the overall meaning of their relationship entering KH3 remains the same going out of KH3. It didn't shift, all we got was more showings and interactions of their close bond—which this isn't bad, but it isn't necessarily advancing them past the current status either. Rationalizing that they have shifted from their established relationship just because Sora didn't do the exact same damn things he did in previous games, like think about her on the journey, has no bearing on what HAS been done between the two of them in the game. It's like confirmation bias is guiding that sense of judgement in Sora and Kairi's disposition. No. If their relationship is represented in a way in a story narrative, this doesn't change unless the change itself is signified—this is literally applicable to any and all unique relationships. With all the interactions that Sora/Kairi do have in the game, there's no rational reason to believe the change of complete omit of romantic feelings in their relationship has already occurred. Whatever change is (or won't) happen to their current relationship, hasn't happened yet, which isn't implying that it won't at all. Simply stating that a character CAN change does not mean it has happened yet, or even, that change is even expected by the context. It's simply going to be a series of speculation until the story shows us more.

There are multiple perspectives, multiple angles of rationalization that all fans will have to personally understand, describe, and feel about these scenes between them. And, that is fine, and completely necessary for the expression of self thought. I'm cool with it. But, no matter what I think, no matter what you think, no matter what Jim down the street thinks—there are still certain truths that the context retains besides our own thoughts, and right now, it's that the friendship and romantic aspects of their relationship is still open to be dealt with by Nomura as the story and characters carry on into the next saga. Free to be expressed, free to be completely negated out of existence of possibility per the context. Or, free to be ignored with no change whatsoever, which sounds very much so like him. Even then, this would still only mean that their relationship has continued to only reach a limit to being represented by a strong, tethering bond of friendship and subtle romantic portrayal. Ultimately, especially with Nomura's writing style and ability, we'll see how everything plays out at a later time. I've enjoyed this conversation, but I just can't add any more with this just being the extension of my side on all this.

This was good though, at least to me anyway.
 
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allenleonardo

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Nomura chose not to bring those moments full circle. Why do you think that is? What is the natural conclusion to take away from the absence of a blatantly romantic scene in this game taking into account KH3's role?

I agree. Just because there had been romantic hints between them in the first game (and partly in Kh2 and CoM) does not mean that this romance is set in stone. As long as they are not ingame confirmed by direct actions (be it through words or things like a kiss) we cant just say that this is how its always going to be. People change and that is even more true for 14 year old teenagers that may have had a restricted view of the world. They had a crush on each other, but you can outgrow it and it should be on the writer to show us that the crush is still there and turns into real romantic love. Yet in KH3 he did not do that and even had done a scene where they would not even share a fruit.

(And writers change too. We had Nomura that once saw Sora as his own son, who now cant relate to him at all. So in the end nobody truly knows how he will do them but he never had a problem of showing these hints in the older games through Soras thoughts. Yet he stopped here. He had no problem with showing how Sora thought about Riku and if he did not want to include Kairi in scenes because of time, then he could have given more hints through the loading screen, where Sora again mentions his friends like Riku but never once Kairi)
 
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