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So how come there's no pure light male's?



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Taochan

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...Or it could be because the PoH are the Disney princesses and therefore special in that regard. Has nothing to do with just them being female. Don't turn this into a social justice issue.
I agree that the actual reason is just because Nomura was trying to incorporate Disney princesses to connect the series more to Disney, but even that reason doesn't really negate that there IS an issue with how female characters are treated overall in KH. That's not a social justice issue, just a fact. Lol.
 

BlazeHeatnix

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I agree that the actual reason is just because Nomura was trying to incorporate Disney princesses to connect the series more to Disney, but even that reason doesn't really negate that there IS an issue with how female characters are treated overall in KH. That's not a social justice issue, just a fact. Lol.

Regardless of this "fact" it has no place in this thread. If you want to make a political thread talking about how feminism can fix KH, be my guest, but don't go shoving it in here.
 

Taochan

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Regardless of this "fact" it has no place in this thread. If you want to make a political thread talking about how feminism can fix KH, be my guest, but don't go shoving it in here.
Wow. Alright, first off that line of conversation fits in with this thread's OP perfectly fine so no, it does not need another thread. You do not make the rules here so I would appreciate if you would politely calm down and not try to dictate how things work.

And second, no one is "shoving feminism". If anything, you are the one individual who seems to have a problem with legitimate criticisms on how the series handles not only their male characters but their female characters as well. It's not even an issue of "feminism" as it is just an issue which is why it was mentioned.

There is no need for such hostility.
 

BlazeHeatnix

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Wow. Alright, first off that line of conversation fits in with this thread's OP perfectly fine

Except no, it doesn't. That's my problem. OP asked why there were no pure light males. The answer is simple: the only ones who are pure of light are the Princesses of Heart, which are simply there because they're the Disney princesses. That's the reason they are born pure light of heart, not because they were female, but because that was their fate. I think we can apply Occam's Razor here and say it is not Nomura's fault that the Princesses of Heart are the way they are. There's no convoluted story explanation for it, and I'd prefer it be kept that way lest things get too weird. So if you want to point any blame at anyone when it comes to this, point it as Disney. Not SE.

Ventus's heart became pure light after Xehanort ripped out his darkness, but this left his heart broken as hearts are made up of both light and darkness. It wouldn't make any difference if it was Aqua instead, her heart would be broken as well. So in terms of becoming pure light instead of being born that way, it makes no difference the gender, it would still be extremely dangerous.
 

KingdomKey

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Re: so how come there's no pure light male's?

The way I see it it was Nomura's way of putting in some Disney princesses and make them actually relevant in KH1 which they wasn't sure would go further than one game.
Keeping it only them is pretty much the only way disney princesses, at least the six he picked (Kairi is original), are involved in some way.

^ Speaking of that, why does Alice count as one of the Princesses of Heart? In the movies, she's not really a Disney princess. Ariel would've of made more sense, because she's a princess, even though she can't walk on land like the others. Although, you could argue the same thing of Kairi, since she's original and all. I know this diverts from the topic slightly, but it's something that bugs me. And the more I think on it... probably cause Alice is from Disney. Therefore they could get away with it.

As for the question at hand:

I agree with the concept of Nomura giving the Disney princesses of heart a greater role instead of simply being damsels in distress. Plus, it's an easy choice to make on who to give that role to. Whereas it concerning Sora wouldn't feel right and the plot of KH wouldn't be the same. Sora was given a choice to fight on the side of Light or Darkness. If he were made of pure light... I don't think he would have that option nor do I know how that would affect the Kingdom Key going to him. If anything at all, I think Nomura would have to define what it means to be of pure light. Otherwise, I like everyone else's answers the best.
 

alexis.anagram

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Except no, it doesn't. That's my problem. OP asked why there were no pure light males. The answer is simple: the only ones who are pure of light are the Princesses of Heart, which are simply there because they're the Disney princesses
Sounds to me like you're trying to shut down a viable dialogue to be had between fans of the series simply because you personally don't enjoy the implications it underscores. In terms of the storyline, the Princess of Heart are not "Disney princesses;" that concept is moot if we're discussing the internal narrative structure at hand. Nobody here, that I can see, has set the blame squarely on anyone's shoulders-- neither Nomura's nor Disney's. The archetypes in question are pervasive and can be seen in many myths, legends, and fairy tales throughout history. Trying to get at the root of why they find their way into the communal discourse that is storytelling, rather than merely taking them at face value, is higher level critiquing.

You're not wrong, by the way, and I don't think there's any merit in disagreeing with your core argument: Nomura clearly wanted a way to make the Disney Princesses relevant in a Disney influenced game, and this was his device for doing so. But the fact remains that he chose this particular vehicle to convey them from Disney princesses to Princesses of Heart within the KH canon. How that might inform and reflect his writing of female characters throughout the series is worth thinking about.

As for an in-universe explanation for this, it's hard to surmise or even theorize about without knowing the mechanics (or magics) of the Pure Hearts themselves. Do they choose a host, much like the Keyblade chooses a Master? Are the Princesses really just average women and girls who, like Sora, were tasked by a power beyond themselves? I tend to think so. It's why a girl like Alice, who isn't technically of royal lineage, can harbor one. Why all girls? Perhaps it's coincidence: 12 out of 13 of the most powerful humanoid Nobodies we know of were male. That was, apparently, coincidence.

The only other answers we might be left with reference a kind of gender essentialism we don't find to hold true anywhere else in the story. Keyblade wielders can be of any gender. Both men and women can prove powerful in forces of darkness and light. And yet this fact apparently holds true across many Worlds, throughout the KH mythos. Is there a specific reason that hearts of pure light would seek out female hosts (or be born into them, or whatever happens to get them there)? I can't think of one, other than it being somehow ritualistic. Perhaps there's a natural balance to be metered out by giving a protective force to girls in a universe where, albeit not all of them, many of the most powerful competing forces have been seen to be men (Xehanort, Eraqus, likely their Master, Terra, Sora, Riku-- even Donald, Goofy and Mickey run off without delay to combat the forces of darkness while Daisy and Minnie keep house at Disney Castle).
 

BlazeHeatnix

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You're not wrong, by the way, and I don't think there's any merit in disagreeing with your core argument: Nomura clearly wanted a way to make the Disney Princesses relevant in a Disney influenced game, and this was his device for doing so. But the fact remains that he chose this particular vehicle to convey them from Disney princesses to Princesses of Heart within the KH canon. How that might inform and reflect his writing of female characters throughout the series is worth thinking about.

What do you expect him to do? Have them all wielding Keyblades and fighting? Had he portrayed them in any other way than "pure maidens" who are damsels in distress and don't want to fight, not only would that go completely against their characters (They didn't choose this life and in accordance with the fairytales they're based on, they were most likely raised to be "proper ladies" and thus not fight, unlike Kairi who grew up around boys fighting with toy swords) but it would piss Disney off since the Disney princesses, and how they are portrayed in Disney media, are *extremely* strictly protected. And since the Princesses of Heart were established in the very first game, Nomura probably did not want to do anything particularly drastic with the Disney media in the game, since this was a risky project to begin with and wasn't even intended to have a sequel.

Say what you will about Nomura, he DID NOT have a choice here. People are grossly underestimating the control Disney has over their properties, including KH.
 

wolfshadow

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Actually Belle in kh2 fought of Xaldin to get the rose back to the Beast. And the latest disney movies with a female princess protagonist didn't need protection (i.e. Brave, Frozen).
 

Ruran

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What do you expect him to do? Have them all wielding Keyblades and fighting? Had he portrayed them in any other way than "pure maidens" who are damsels in distress and don't want to fight, not only would that go completely against their characters (They didn't choose this life and in accordance with the fairytales they're based on, they were most likely raised to be "proper ladies" and thus not fight, unlike Kairi who grew up around boys fighting with toy swords) but it would piss Disney off since the Disney princesses, and how they are portrayed in Disney media, are *extremely* strictly protected. And since the Princesses of Heart were established in the very first game, Nomura probably did not want to do anything particularly drastic with the Disney media in the game, since this was a risky project to begin with and wasn't even intended to have a sequel.

Say what you will about Nomura, he DID NOT have a choice here. People are grossly underestimating the control Disney has over their properties, including KH.

The topic at hand really isn't one about pro feminism per se, it's more about understanding the conventions implemented in the series and why. It just so happens to include gender roles since KH DOES implement some very old and very common archetypes and tropes. I chalk it up mostly to KH having a "fairytale-like" quality, but as I mentioned before, KH is infatuated with the "Eternal Feminine Archetype".

Eternal feminine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's the concept that has namelessly been brought up a couple of times to describe the perception that women are inherently "more pure" than men. Regardless if one agrees with it or not, it is for a fact an active (though indirectly addressed) concept in KH.

No, the princess characters didn't have to go around kicking ass, but they didn't have to have their prominence as pure, docile beings that half exist to be protected either. No one is blaming Nomura, or anyone period. As I mentioned before, The Eternal Feminine Archetype is an old concept that's been around since forever and is just not the sort of thing that most people consciously think about when writing. I agree that to an extent Nomura has to work within certain boundaries. He can't go too far off the mark because he's working with already established Disney characters. What is interesting to discuss and think about is why certain concepts were chosen from a virtually infinite pool and how they work in the series.

Which yes, is going to include gender roles to an extent. When talking about the concepts in a work, so long as gender exists, it's practically an inescapable topic.
 

Elysium

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You're not wrong, by the way, and I don't think there's any merit in disagreeing with your core argument: Nomura clearly wanted a way to make the Disney Princesses relevant in a Disney influenced game, and this was his device for doing so. But the fact remains that he chose this particular vehicle to convey them from Disney princesses to Princesses of Heart within the KH canon. How that might inform and reflect his writing of female characters throughout the series is worth thinking about.
I agree, which is why I made the post I did. He chose to make the Disney princesses and Kairi relevant by making them passive objects. In other words, not really relevant, which is why they haven't had much of a purpose outside of creating the Keyhole in Hollow Bastion in the first game. Not trying to make it into a "social justice thing," but it is what it is.

As for why the PoH could be explained in-story, perhaps the original lights were women and their souls have reincarnated in women every generation? (Although, now that I think of it, I don't think reincarnation follows gender lines.)
 

Davidsawr

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I agree, which is why I made the post I did. He chose to make the Disney princesses and Kairi relevant by making them passive objects. In other words, not really relevant, which is why they haven't had much of a purpose outside of creating the Keyhole in Hollow Bastion in the first game. Not trying to make it into a "social justice thing," but it is what it is.

As for why the PoH could be explained in-story, perhaps the original lights were women and their souls have reincarnated in women every generation? (Although, now that I think of it, I don't think reincarnation follows gender lines.)

Kairi has a keyblade and is one of the guardians as well as a PoH sooo not so passive. Disney princesses probably wouldnt be able to do more if Nomura wanted to, Disney would never allow it. Nomura can change the story of the worlds to allow for Sora and the heartless and whatnot but to make a disney princess anything other than what they were in the original story would never happen, so if you look at a video game with beloved childrens characters and see a problem blame Disney.
 

Taochan

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Nomura has more control with the series than most people seem to realize.

Also, yes to everyone who is saying that no one is necessarily complaining about there being princesses that don't fight but rather that the male characters and female characters tend to fall into very stereotypical roles.

It's not even arguable. There are only Princesses of Heart and no Princes of Heart because the only 7 beings in the universe with pure hearts are women? Then you look at the villains in the series, and barring Disney villains (only counting original villains) there is only one female. As for Keyblade wielders? We only have three female Keyblade wielders and Xion honestly hardly should count as one due to her currently being a replica aka an empty shell that was a canister for memories.

It's not very ideal nor does it make sense except from how Ruran has pointed out that this is very much like a classic fairytale.
 
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Joker'sHeartless

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As for why the PoH could be explained in-story, perhaps the original lights were women and their souls have reincarnated in women every generation? (Although, now that I think of it, I don't think reincarnation follows gender lines.)
As far as I know (which, now that I think about it, is next to nothing outside Avatar the Last Airbender rules) it doesn't.

Maybe there have been Princes of Heart before. We know there are always seven pure lights, and if BbS is any indication, the flow of time is PoH worlds seems to be at least a bit slowed in relation to other worlds. Who knows, maybe there was a pure male light five years before BbS, but then Kairi was born and for the next decade and a half (or more, counting time dilation), they're all female and the majority of them are royalty.
Badaboom, now we're callin' 'em Princesses!

Original real world reasons aside, with a little speculation (and about thirteen metric tons of pixie dust), we can solve anything.
 

BlazeHeatnix

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It's not even arguable. There are only Princesses of Heart and no Princes of Heart because the only 7 beings in the universe with pure hearts are women? Then you look at the villains in the series, and barring Disney villains (only counting original villains) there is only one female. As for Keyblade wielders? We only have three female Keyblade wielders and Xion honestly hardly should count as one due to her currently being a replica aka an empty shell that was a canister for memories.

You'll forgive me if I look at this and see nothing but senseless whining that a series is not as "progressive" as it could be. You are arguing things like if Vexen or Zexion for example were female, not changing anything of their characters at all save for their gender, that the game's story would benefit from it. Which is ludicrous, and by definition sexist. Nobody relates to a character or finds them interesting simply because they are your gender. I'm so tired of this idea that every game made today MUST have equal representation of gender, race and sexuality lest they be labeled racist/sexist/homophobic.

Me personally, I don't see many characters in this series that are so clearly masculine or feminine that they couldn't be filled by either gender, which you can't say about most modern games, not even most RPGs. That means characters are defined by who they are, not what. Seriously, how many characters besides Riku, the brooding antihero, and Kairi, the innocent teenage princess, play stereotypically male/female roles? Sora does not count, because his role as a child protagonist dragged into an epic adventure is a trope that's been done with both male and female characters throughout history. The Organization also does not count save for Xemnas and Lexaeus, since their backstories and personalities are kept pretty neutral. (This is how Marluxia's gender was changed mid-development) Complaining about there not being enough actively-rolled women in the cast is only truly valid when the cast is either a "sausagefest" (IE manly characters doing manly things) or there are literally no female characters at all.

Of course it is also valid if there are no women in the cast that are not being anything but damsels in distress, which USED to be true for KH if you look at Kairi, but as of 3D this is no longer the case, so it's a moot point. I wouldn't classify Namine as a damsel in distress either, and especially not Aqua. That there not being any other female Keyblade wielders is also blatantly untrue given χ. So the only other female characters this really applies to are of course the Princesses of Heart, which again are established Disney characters, as discussed earlier, it would be extremely difficult to have them play a bigger role without violating both their characters and the meddling law.
 

Elysium

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Original real world reasons aside, with a little speculation (and about thirteen metric tons of pixie dust), we can solve anything.
That's true. I think it's something that could be swept under a rug in-universe if necessary, that's why I never asked this question myself.

Kairi has a keyblade and is one of the guardians as well as a PoH sooo not so passive.
Maybe that'll be the case in KH3, but that game won't be out for at least another two years? So far, the only thing I've seen her do is make a seashell charm and get tackled by Heartless. Oh, and she read the letter at the end of KH2.

Nobody relates to a character or finds them interesting simply because they are your gender.
I think that's a false assumption, considering most video game series are populated mostly by male characters marketed at male players. If gender has nothing to do with it, then where are the women? Your post comes off much more "political" than anything I said to begin with. I gave a post on why I thought there were no male pure lights and how that's affected by the portrayal of the female characters we have (the PoH), while you're complaining about some kind of affirmative action. Maybe you're the one who's off-topic.

Btw, how would having more original female characters in a series with a ratio of 20+ to 5 be "sexist" again???
 

Ruran

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You'll forgive me if I look at this and see nothing but senseless whining that a series is not as "progressive" as it could be. You are arguing things like if Vexen or Zexion for example were female, not changing anything of their characters at all save for their gender, that the game's story would benefit from it. Which is ludicrous, and by definition sexist. Nobody relates to a character or finds them interesting simply because they are your gender. I'm so tired of this idea that every game made today MUST have equal representation of gender, race and sexuality lest they be labeled racist/sexist/homophobic.

Please stop putting words in people's mouths. Taochan said nothing about the game benefiting if some of the male characters had been female or anything akin to that. Your dragging your baggage in here about how games these days are pressured into being more progressive when no one here is really arguing about that. The conversation in regards to gender roles and gender stereo types in KH has been very matter of fact.

Me personally, I don't see many characters in this series that are so clearly masculine or feminine that they couldn't be filled by either gender, which you can't say about most modern games, not even most RPGs. That means characters are defined by who they are, not what. Seriously, how many characters besides Riku, the brooding antihero, and Kairi, the innocent teenage princess, play stereotypically male/female roles? Sora does not count, because his role as a child protagonist dragged into an epic adventure is a trope that's been done with both male and female characters throughout history. The Organization also does not count save for Xemnas and Lexaeus, since their backstories and personalities are kept pretty neutral. (This is how Marluxia's gender was changed mid-development) Complaining about there not being enough actively-rolled women in the cast is only truly valid when the cast is either a "sausagefest" (IE manly characters doing manly things) or there are literally no female characters at all.

Oh, I beg to differ. One of my main issues with Kairi in particular is that she's a character whose near entire role depends on what she is. She's a princess character to Sora's and Riku's dark and white knight respectively who spends the majority of the series being a DiD. Fortunately though, the issue mostly ends with her.

Namine was literally a princess (witch) in a tower waiting for her hero to save her. She was a DiD as well although I think she was handled a lot better than Kairi. Ultimately though she was a plot device important because Sora thought she was important.

Xion identifies as female but biologically she's questionable. Her entire story revolves around her identity as a "doll" and pushing Roxas' story forward. She was originally going to go crazy and try to kill Roxas, but the staff decided against it because she was written to be pure and they wanted her to remain a good girl until the end.

Aqua is the only one who broke the mold a bit and her popularity actually surprised Nomura. He didn't think she'd be very well received because "she wasn't like the other girls". A big part of her character was that her heart was so pure without actually being devoid of darkness, that she was a potential competent for the X-Blade in the old recipe.

Over all, I think calling KH out on being a sausage fest is actually pretty valid. There are several female characters in the series, but KH typically addresses the large cast in small groups at a time so you'd be lucky to get two main female characters at once. In a cast of over two dozen characters, only seven notable characters are female and four are actual main characters. Per game there are about two to five main male characters and zero to two main female characters. Personally, I count KH as a "sausage fest".

Of course it is also valid if there are no women in the cast that are not being anything but damsels in distress, which USED to be true for KH if you look at Kairi, but as of 3D this is no longer the case, so it's a moot point. I wouldn't classify Namine as a damsel in distress either, and especially not Aqua. That there not being any other female Keyblade wielders is also blatantly untrue given χ. So the only other female characters this really applies to are of course the Princesses of Heart, which again are established Disney characters, as discussed earlier, it would be extremely difficult to have them play a bigger role without violating both their characters and the meddling law.

KH only has four main female characters, half of which usually get stuck in the DiD position. It took seven games and over a decade to get Kairi to where she is and she's still at the bottom of the totem pole. The other three female characters are currently waiting to be saved leaving us with just Kairi for now. Chi isn't even canon as a whole, just certain parts. The only characters that may be canon are the foreseers which would then bring the roster of female characters to six depending on how relevant they become.

If you're satisfied with how the story and characters have played out and see no problems, that's fine. Many people are either unsatisfied with certain aspects or at least see that some things are iffy and want to discus it. What I can't understand is why you're so adamant about getting others to cease because you don't like what's being said. In fact, most of the conversation in this topic isn't even complaining about these issues, just reflecting on what's been done. The OP asked about the purity of male characters in KH and in broad strokes the answer came down to the old idea that females are perceived as "more pure" than males and by extension, males weren't capable of being pure enough. It's not even really speculation, it's an idea present within the series, just not directly addressed.

Again, no one is really complaining or finger-pointing. Just matter of factly pointing out certain tropes within the series to answer the OP that happen to do with gender.
 
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