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Some don't want Disney in the next Kingdom Hearts games anymore



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Alpha Baymax

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Another point to consider is the fact that Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II were released when Michael Eisner was the CEO of the Walt Disney Company. He had a notorious reputation of being problematic and one of those problematic things was not respecting the creativity of the creatives at Disney.

I think Disney's current monitoring of their intellectual properties is a result of the brand damage that was caused by not caring about the ideals of what a particular Disney brand represents. There's a reason why Disney Direct-to-DVD sequels are no longer being made despite the easy money they can make.
 

MATGSY

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So am I the only one here wanting more Disney/less originals? KH1 basically had it perfect with only 4 original characters to focus on being all you needed & Disney characters actually driving the main plot. Why couldn't the series have stayed like that?
 

Rydgea

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The Disney characters have the advantage of already being established, iconic characters with fully realized character arcs. The problem isn't that (a mass of) original characters are there, they're just more often than not poorly developed and at a trickle-drip's pace.
 

kirabook

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I have nothing against the Disney properties. My problem is when they choose unfitting worlds, or when they do choose fitting worlds, it's one of Disney's cash cows so Nomura and team can't do what they want with it like they typically can. You all know the one.

In my opinion, if Nomura and team can't have more say in what happens there or the ideas are poopy, then it shouldn't be in the game. I think Pixar did a pretty good job incorporating their properties into a KH format even though sometimes it felt a bit drawn out. Disney, imo, does not put that amount of effort in their properties (yes I know they're technically the same company but they're also technically not)

There are some new Disney movies that fit the KH theme SO well, but is it worth including them if Disney is going to railroad them to just badly retelling the Disney movie over???

Thing is, I'm not playing this game FOR Disney. I'm playing this game because it's a Disney, FF, and original spin crossover. If I want to rewatch the Disney movie, I can do that. I'm playing KH cause I want to see all the bizzaro KH logic injected into it and to see OC and FF characters interact with them.

Kingdom Hearts isn't Kingdom Hearts without that mix (which is why the absence of FF in KH3 was just so.... )
 

Absent

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This thread just made me sad. I don’t think what Kingdom Hearts 1 did will ever be replicated or attempted again.
 

kirabook

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I think Toy Story and Monster's Inc. got the closest of the recent titles. Pirates too I suppose? The Disney characters having a direct effect on the bad guys hasn't been happening a lot lately (can't think of any in DDD or BbS)

But, I feel like not enough is being done with the Disney worlds and characters to extend their stories outside of their worlds.

For example, for KH1, we have:
- King Triton knowing about the other worlds and threatening Sora over it
- FF crew + Cloud appearing in multiple places and having stories with the Disney character (I guess BbS did this with Zack. He was the last one)
- The whole situation with Monstro, Pinocchio, and Ge....Gestapo??? .... No, that can't be right. Lol. Multiple worlds all integrated
- All the Disney villains scheming with one another in person, not just Maleficent going place to place (Happened in KH3 briefly)
- Beast being Beast
- Dalmatians

Now, it feels like no one knows there's worlds outside. I know it's supposed to be a secret and all, but SURELY SOME people in these other worlds have to have a clue?

It's like even the Disney worlds aren't connected anymore. Nothing from world to world is being carried throughout. They're all self contained adventures which I think is detrimental. I'll try to think of some examples for some of the KH3 worlds.

- Gothel was a sorely underused villain. She's supposedly a very knowledgeable person. If we go by the expanded Disney TV show, she's also a witch. Surely someone like her would know about other worlds? Maybe she came from another world??? Wouldn't it have been cool if she encountered Sora, knowing he came from somewhere else, and told him to get out of their worldly business? Instead, they have some of that stuff to Marluxia and as much as I liked seeing fancy pants Marluxia, it did not benefit the story having him pulling strings.

- Big Hero 6. In Big Hero 6, it's arguably or even confirmed that that alternate space Hiro and Baymax went into at the end of the movie was "in-between worlds" by KH logic. You know, the place you drive your gummy ship through. Or was it darkness? Either way, they could've totally brought that up with genius kid Hiro and maybe he could've provided Sora with information that would later help him in the story? Especially with what happened to Aqua who is pretty similar to Baymax?

- Not even going to touch Frozen. It needs a huge rework imo

So I guess, those are a few I can name off the top of my head. And this is without FF characters. I feel like the FF characters played a huge role in tying these Disney stories together.
 

disney233

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I think Toy Story and Monster's Inc. got the closest of the recent titles. Pirates too I suppose? The Disney characters having a direct effect on the bad guys hasn't been happening a lot lately (can't think of any in DDD or BbS)

But, I feel like not enough is being done with the Disney worlds and characters to extend their stories outside of their worlds.

For example, for KH1, we have:
- King Triton knowing about the other worlds and threatening Sora over it
- FF crew + Cloud appearing in multiple places and having stories with the Disney character (I guess BbS did this with Zack. He was the last one)
- The whole situation with Monstro, Pinocchio, and Ge....Gestapo??? .... No, that can't be right. Lol. Multiple worlds all integrated
- All the Disney villains scheming with one another in person, not just Maleficent going place to place (Happened in KH3 briefly)
- Beast being Beast
- Dalmatians

Now, it feels like no one knows there's worlds outside. I know it's supposed to be a secret and all, but SURELY SOME people in these other worlds have to have a clue?

It's like even the Disney worlds aren't connected anymore. Nothing from world to world is being carried throughout. They're all self contained adventures which I think is detrimental. I'll try to think of some examples for some of the KH3 worlds.

- Gothel was a sorely underused villain. She's supposedly a very knowledgeable person. If we go by the expanded Disney TV show, she's also a witch. Surely someone like her would know about other worlds? Maybe she came from another world??? Wouldn't it have been cool if she encountered Sora, knowing he came from somewhere else, and told him to get out of their worldly business? Instead, they have some of that stuff to Marluxia and as much as I liked seeing fancy pants Marluxia, it did not benefit the story having him pulling strings.

- Big Hero 6. In Big Hero 6, it's arguably or even confirmed that that alternate space Hiro and Baymax went into at the end of the movie was "in-between worlds" by KH logic. You know, the place you drive your gummy ship through. Or was it darkness? Either way, they could've totally brought that up with genius kid Hiro and maybe he could've provided Sora with information that would later help him in the story? Especially with what happened to Aqua who is pretty similar to Baymax?

- Not even going to touch Frozen. It needs a huge rework imo

So I guess, those are a few I can name off the top of my head. And this is without FF characters. I feel like the FF characters played a huge role in tying these Disney stories together.
The fact that two worlds, two PIXAR worlds got the closest right to the formula of that perfect mix of Disney and original is the reason why...I can't say I have much hope for whatever the hell's coming for the next installments.

Here's another thing you're forgetting about the Disney worlds. The main thing that really STRINGS the whole thing together that. FIGHTING. THE DISNEY. BOSSES. There is absolutely no doubt that many of the worlds in the past series are memorable because you get to fight your favorite Disney villain. KH1 we had the literal big guns as boss fights. I don't think we'll forget Dragon Maleficent or Giant Ursula.

KH3 had so little bosses that are so memorable. Hell, even after 2 the bosses have gotten so...stale. The only memorable fights with the Disney villains are the Titans and Davy Jones. That's it. Who the hell is going to remember the fact that Marshmallow was a boss? And Dark Baymax was too lacking to even make me give a shit.

This also really ties in with the world choices. You can't really find an engaging boss battle with Gothel and Hans than you would THE FUCKIN' SHADOW MAN, FACILIER! OR BIGASS BOSS FIGHT WITH TE FETI AND MOB FIGHTS WITH THE KAKAMORA! Like...GAHHH!

HELL, The Pixar Worlds would've been perfect IF WE FOUGHT ZURG OR RANDALL With the respective Heartless you fight in Toy Box and Monstropolis. Like...BRUH!

It's like...Disney and Pixar are ACTIVE trying to suck out the magic that made Kingdom Hearts. Which is ironic, ain't it?
 

redcrown

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I would definitely not mind if Disney took more of a back seat in the future games. Tbh I'm personally burned out of how the newer Disney elements have been utilized lately, just very surface level and shallow (Fairy Godmother is a strong exception to this, she's actually facilitating things happening while actually having a personality at the same time). KH3 honestly felt like a timely farewell to it's heavy Disney involvement in the series with D&G helping defeat Xehanort and it's ending.

I would honestly look forward to the series again if it focused more on it's long neglected FF/TWEWY elements, it would definitely feel like a good change of pace instead of repeating Disney worlds ad nauseam. Let's admit it; they aren't going to use the Disney movies as worlds people actually want, or if they do they won't be used well. This isn't to say I want Disney to disappear from the series entirely, just used minimally yet smartly.
 
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Danrye001

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As long as they don't choose other anime worlds. Final Fantasy and The World Ends With You are fine with me.
 

HakaishinChampa

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I think what we need is the return of a Disney Castle/Town type world.

A world with tons of old-school disney characters, a world that can be important to the plot, a world that is connected to Donald, Goofy and Mickey.

Mickey's world is really vast if you've seen all the different movies/cartoons he's starred in, they could build on that a bit more. There's also characters and plots that they can take from other disney films featuring Donald & Goofy. The Goofy Movie, Ducktales, the three caballeros, etc.

They could even include a portal to the Epic Mickey Wasteland place,.

I think it would be a bit different and bring interest to people getting tired of Disney
 

Sephiroth0812

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This proposal pops up like every three months or so somewhere in the periphery around the KH series so it is nothing new, yet the core issue remains the same.

The Disney characters have the advantage of already being established, iconic characters with fully realized character arcs. The problem isn't that (a mass of) original characters are there, they're just more often than not poorly developed and at a trickle-drip's pace.
Indeed, although the original characters being underdeveloped and not getting enough focus (apart from a select few such as Riku and Xehanort) is not primarily the fault of the Disney properties and characters themselves but how Nomura and the KH staff are distributing the available space in a a single game and how they lack the creativity and sometimes boldness to effectively combine those aspects to enrich both the original and Disney characters, but that is a problem that predates KH 3 itself.

The combination aspect may be however more recently indeed partly to blame on Disney due to their, as Spockanort mentions, somewhat hamfisted approach to their properties in the past few years.

Seriously? The Frozen world in KH 3 was so underused and, for lack of better words, unimportant that the game could have functioned much the same without it.
Imagine if we had a visit to Radiant Garden instead of Frozen which incorporated a) Saix as a world organisation member and boss battle, b) assistance from the FF cameos, c) involvement of Lea and Kairi as Guest party members, d) cameos of Tron and the Chamber of Repose as another link to the "save Aqua" plotline as well as gain more info on Xemnas and Xehanort and last but not least e) a small side plot on both Kairi's childhood and Lea/Isa's past to set up future plotlines for them without resorting to mere exposition cutscenes during the final battles.

The problem is not the Disney properties taking too much space, but how they are used, or rather not used, same as it is with the original properties including the characters.
It's not Disney stealing their thunder, it's Nomura and co. not putting enough care into coherent scenario writing, connections via world building and characterisation letting all characters (original and Disney) playing off each other and letting them develop via that.
Because big plot arcs with grand flashy gestures (and battles) as well as twists and "surprises" are more important instead of fleshing out stuff.

It jumps only evermore into one's eyes recently because with Disney exerting tighter control over their brands some Disney parts of the KH series feel even more detached and superfluous to the KH-verse as a whole.
 

MrFranklin95

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Yeah, no.

It's not happening. Sorry guys, I don't know how to break this to you but Kingdom Hearts isn't Kingdom Hearts without Disney or Final Fantasy. Its... kind of the point. And it makes up a signicant portion of this world that you can't really drop either.

Without them, Kingdom Hearts becomes a completely different franchise because they way too integrated into the franchise at this point. They can't abandon them now for no narrative or financial reason at all. It wouldn't make any sense. Which is why many people were up in arms when FF characters and storylines were dropped and were reduced to pretty much name drop cameos in KH3 and that was one of the things they immediately fixed when Re: Mind came out. And besides, it was weird to just drop them out of the blue but Moogles, for some reason, were still here. Plus, KH takes a lot gameplay elements from FF. And, considering the direction FF is in right now, its kind of vice-versa.

And that's really main problem here. We wouldn't be having this argument if the Disney and Final Fantasy stuff was treated a lot better then it actually is. Disney and Final Fantasy are so non-existent to the main plot at this point that you start to wonder why its even here. So I don't blame people for feeling the way they feel but to completely drop them isn't a viable solution either. Espeically in the case of Disney.

Like, for as much I hate it (especially now that I've become a big FF fan), I understand Noruma putting FF characters in the shelves. Its a dumb decision and its wasted potential, which is why I think they went back on it for Re: Mind, so the fate of FF characters is still in the air at this point but he can't do that with Disney. Not at all.

90% of this universe is littered with Disney characters and worlds. They can't just drop it. The only way I can see it happening is if the OC characters to transport to Yozora's world permanently, which would not make any sense at all or they do a hard reboot and break away from Disney entirely. Which, again, would make it a completely different franchise then what it is right now.

Neither of which I ever see happening for financial and narrative reasons. Disney and Final Fantasy are as big part of this universe's lore as much as the original stuff is. FF is maybe a little less so but elements are still there and even besides that, there's no way in hell you can remove Disney without taking something integral away from the franchise.

Honestly, the roles the Disney worlds play is perfectly fine with me. I just think the Disney world need to be more integrated into the main story on a thematic level and have something that involves moving the plot forward, not remake the films and tell a new story, more OC characters being involved, inspiring character growth and that's literally it. KH1 and some parts of KH3 showed that Disney worlds playing that role is all fine and good to me, it just needs to not waste its potential. And that involves Disney not being so protective of their properties so much that they won't take changes with them. This includes party members and boss battles.

For the life of me, I don't understand the problem with fighting Randall in the Monsters Inc world. Or Elsa fighting along side you in Frozen. Nothing. Nothing at all. Disney really does need to let Noruma have a little bit more creative freedom when it comes to the Disney side of things.

With Final Fantasy, its just mostly neglect then anything else honestly. It would be different if the FF crew didn't have storylines we were following that just got dropped or are not explained well after the fact. But they do. And honestly, now that I've played these FF games the characters come from, seeing different interpretations of them and seeing them interact with Disney or other FF characters from an entirely different universe is half the fun of these games. Like, you know how much I would scream and jump for joy if characters from FF6 came into a KH game!? It would be a waste to drop it and not do something interesting with instead just making "Yozora world" to appease a certain section of the fanbase or so that Noruma can be self indulgent with his own seperate story instead of just improving on the one he has in front of him. Or if he doesn't want to do that, just give the franchise to someone else and move on. But that's a whole different conversation when talking about Noruma and this whole Yozora thing that involves speculation at best so... eh, still putting a pin on that one until the next game comes out.

And I mean... that's just pretty much it. Like a lot of things in KH, it just needs to be done better lol but completely dropping Disney and FF from the franchise is not a viable solution for this universe where too many elements from both franchises make up a large portion of KH's world and gameplay as a whole.

The series would need a hard reboot... which is why Yozora and his whole deal... worries me a bit. Or not a bit... like, a lot.
 
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MATGSY

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What if instead of just simply cutting Disney they like split the series in 2: the all original subseries & a more Disney driven subseries. Both can still be in the same continuity, just focusing on separate sets of characters.
 

Chie

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Why are people still writing essays about why this won't happen when everyone here is already in agreement that it won't happen.
 

kirabook

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It's still nice to really think about and indulge in why such a situation wouldn't work, and the proper things that have gone wrong/need to be fixed. Writing my two posts help me further think about what the issue actually seems to be and express it sloppily in text form. Now it has entered the public domain for others to sometimes see, think about, and either agree or disagree.
 

Chie

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I guess I am mostly talking about stuff like these things in MrFranklin's post: "It's not happening. Sorry guys, I don't know how to break this to you", "We wouldn't be having this argument if"...
 

MrFranklin95

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I guess I am mostly talking about stuff like these things in MrFranklin's post: "It's not happening. Sorry guys, I don't know how to break this to you", "We wouldn't be having this argument if"...

Well, I write long posts (mostly to get my general thoughts out) and I'm a cheeky shit about certain topics sometimes too because... eh, I just am. So that's mainly on me 😆 but I never mean to be mean about it, so I apologize.

This has a been topic for quite sometime, so much so that a lot of fans have been wanting and/or speculating that Disney might be phased out entirely. But I guess everyone is in agreement that it's never gonna happen but honestly, who knows? The future is wild these days.
 

Rydgea

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Indeed, although the original characters being underdeveloped and not getting enough focus (apart from a select few such as Riku and Xehanort) is not primarily the fault of the Disney properties and characters themselves but how Nomura and the KH staff are distributing the available space in a a single game and how they lack the creativity and sometimes boldness to effectively combine those aspects to enrich both the original and Disney characters, but that is a problem that predates KH 3 itself.

Not sure how much of your input was actually directed at me, my post was a response to the folks wanting less original characters removed than Disney ones. Disney will never not be in a KH game. It's so far-fetched that I don't even see the point in fantasizing about it. The great thing about Disney characters in the context of KH is whatever doesn't get outright explained to us in-game, we can fill in the gaps with just knowing and having grown up with these films. (KH primers, tbh.) We don't get that luxury with the other loosely written characters.

And of course, I agree that their involvement should have no bearing on the development of the original characters - that is to say, the originals should be getting development I am not seeing. If I can root for Ariel, The Beast and Hercules by the time their respective hour and a half movies are over, then I should be able to do that with all the original characters over the course of 10 games. There are quite a few that still feel barren of substance. And again, that is on the team at Square. If Disney is being too rigid for the OCs to develop within the confines of Disney's properties, worlds, it at least needs to happen in the original worlds and cutscenes.

This is also why I was severely disappointed with the lack of FF in KHIII. They are strange, hybrid creatures in terms of KH. They are something borrowed (Disney) and something new (Sora, Riku, etc). All of their personality traits are carried over into these new Disney-fied vessels, but they have these new lives and histories which leave us speculating for more. We were growing with them in each mainline game until III.

Do I want Disney out of KH? No. For the same reason I don't want FF (or originals) out of KH. It can all be done! I do want Corporate Diznee to get with it and let these devs do what they need to do to make KH a properly enriching experience. *looks at MCU*
 
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The_Echo

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There will never be a KH game that doesn't involve Disney but personally I would not mourn the loss were such a hypothetical game to exist.

I have no nostalgia or care for Disney properties, and their presence in the series has only ever been as backdrops and fluff to begin with. Stand-ins for your typical JRPG pit stops on the way to the final boss.
KH has become so much more than the baffling crossover it started as, and in the same way Nomura felt the FF cast was a "crutch," I think we could easily do away with much of the Disney presence and pivot into a more fully-realized original work.

That said I don't mind the Disney worlds. It's still a unique concept to adapt a variety of films together into a single game, and that variety translates into a consistently dynamic in-game experience. However, working under the thumb of Big Mouse has some obvious drawbacks that consistently work to the detriment of the franchise, and I'd love to mitigate that as much as humanly possible. Especially after how heavily it impacted KHIII's development.
 
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