[SPOILER] Vanitas - the opposite part of Roxas?

[Zyrax]

Those of you who saw the new trailer from JEMP FESTA knows what I-m talking about: The cloaked man at the end of the trailer, seeming to be young MX with Vanitas. I have a theory who it could be:

You remember when MX split Ven's heart in pre-BBS? We know that Ven connected his heart to Sora's because his one was fractured. But, can we be sure that Vanitas, the other being born in this process didn't do the same? What if he connected his heart to another person's one? What if this person was MX?

Then Ven and Vanitas fused their hearts at the end of BBS and afterwards split them, since Ven won the fight. Now, Ven's heart went to Sora, the person to whom he connected it. What if Vanitas heart went to the person, he connected his heart to? To MX?

Now, we know that MX unlocked his heart. Sora did the same in KH1. And what was the result of that? Roxas, his nobody. What I think is that MX left a nobody behind, possibly without really knowing about it. And that nobody received the heart, which was originally connected to the complete being one's, so that MX's nobody bears Vanitas heart inside him. That could be the person who appeared at the end of the trailer and the reason of his existence, which would mean that he's kind of "the opposite part of Roxas." Since Vanitas heart wasn't fractured his memories remained.

Maybe this being (MX's nobody + Vanitas' heart) could also be MF? That would axplain his weapons and his fighting style. Who knows?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

That Vanitas's heart could be connected to Xehanort's like Ven's is to Sora has been already theorized.
Yep, that's a possibility that has to be kept in mind, also since Vanitas has the indicators for a close Xehanort-connection (the golden eyes).
If he also has the pointy ears like Braig/Xigbar and Saix have couldn't be confirmed yet, but may also apply.

MX did unlock his heart to possess Terra though...and that was before Ven defeated Vanitas so his heart couldn't be with MX already.
Later on, when Terra-Xehanort lost his heart and created Ansem SoD there already was a nobody born: Xemnas.
I do see a small logical error here since no person ever spawned two nobodies.

 

[Zyrax]

Well, maybe it could be possible since MX and TX / AX aren't really the same being

 

[Horizon's Knight]

That Vanitas's heart could be connected to Xehanort's like Ven's is to Sora has been already theorized.
Yep, that's a possibility that has to be kept in mind, also since Vanitas has the indicators for a close Xehanort-connection (the golden eyes).
If he also has the pointy ears like Braig/Xigbar and Saix have couldn't be confirmed yet, but may also apply.

MX did unlock his heart to possess Terra though...and that was before Ven defeated Vanitas so his heart couldn't be with MX already.
Later on, when Terra-Xehanort lost his heart and created Ansem SoD there already was a nobody born: Xemnas.
I do see a small logical error here since no person ever spawned two nobodies.

We also don't know what happened to MX's old Body+Soul. That being said, MX never turned into a Heartless, so...

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Well, maybe it could be possible since MX and TX / AX aren't really the same being

That still doesn't change the fact that there isn't really an opportunity for a nobody with Vanitas's heart inside it to be born, as when MX released his heart Vanitas was still around fighting Ven and when AX released his heart we already have the nobody Xemnas.

We also don't know what happened to MX's old Body+Soul. That being said, MX never turned into a Heartless, so...

Yeah, but that possible "being" whatever it is can't possibly hold Vanitas's heart as when it was created Vanitas's heart was still busy fighting Ven's.

The only possibility is that Vanitas's heart went later on, just like Ven's, back to the other heart it was connected with by following that connection. However, the goal would then be MX's heart which is then part of Apprentice Xehanort, not the new "being" that could possibly have spawned from MX's old body and soul.

 

[JTD95]

But Ven had to connect his heart with someone because his heart wasn't functioning, Vanitas on the other hand had a heart that were functioning and didn't need to connect to someone.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

But Ven had to connect his heart with someone because his heart wasn't functioning, Vanitas on the other hand had a heart that were functioning and didn't need to connect to someone.

That was because MX split Ven's heart in a total brutal manner and the trauma combined together with Vanitas taking too much power caused a horrible injury, but here with Vanitas's heart it is theorized that it was more of a fail-safe mechanism thought of by MX.

He connected Vanitas's heart with his own so in case that his plan would really not function (which it did due to Ven and Aqua trashing Vanitas) he would not lose the heart of pure darkness.
See it more like a retreat for Vanitas in case of failure then as a measure to help him survive.

 

[Zyrax]

The only possibility is that Vanitas's heart went later on, just like Ven's, back to the other heart it was connected with by following that connection. However, the goal would then be MX's heart which is then part of Apprentice Xehanort, [...]

That would mean, that AX had Vanitas' heart. And when AX left behind his heartless and his nobody, Xemnas received Vanitas' heart as Sora did with Ven's heart. Now, since Xemnas and ASoD faded away, their complete being is reborn - AX with Vanitas heart, the being from the trailer. And this being is in the RoS and needs to be "awakened".

 

[alexis.anagram]

Along with some of the other logical problems that have been indicated, I don't feel like it would be in either Xehanort's or Vanitas's nature to want to connect hearts with each other. Sora offered to share his light with Ven as an act of kindness and compassion; while I can see the argument that Xehanort would do the same with Vanitas as a backup plan of sorts, I don't think Xehanort would be willing to let someone else into his heart, which he coveted so obsessively. Especially with an anomaly like Vanitas, there are too many potential, unknown risks associated with linking hearts. I can't imagine Xehanort would act that rashly. There's also the question as to why, if Vanitas was present in AX, Terra never sensed him residing within Xehanort the same way Xehanort could sense Eraqus.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

That would mean, that AX had Vanitas' heart. And when AX left behind his heartless and his nobody, Xemnas received Vanitas' heart as Sora did with Ven's heart. Now, since Xemnas and ASoD faded away, their complete being is reborn - AX with Vanitas heart, the being from the trailer. And this being is in the RoS and needs to be "awakened".

That could be a possible explanation. Terra's (with Eraqus's inside) and MX's hearts were literally fused together into one, so that heart-"conglomerate" went to Ansem SoD. When Ansem SoD then was destroyed at DiZ's Encoder exploding Terra's heart somehow managed to latch onto Riku's, explaining the "part of Terra" that Riku holds.
Vanitas's heart, after the destruction of the x-blade as badly wounded and crippled as Ven's, remained stuck inside Apprentice Xehanort's (originally Terra's) body which was then inhabited by Xemnas.
That would explain for one why Xemnas could only feel negative and bad emotions (hate and rage, his own words in KH II) and his obsession with finding Ventus would become an other meaning beside Terra's memories.

The only error with this I see is that if Xemnas had Vanitas's heart and it was the only one his hair would have needed to become black, not Xehanort-silver.
After all, Roxas also gained Ven's golden blonde hair instead of Sora's brown.

---

@Alexis:

Regarding Terra sensing Vanitas's heart, do you really think that Terra's senses are as good as MX's? Especially with MX being the dominant force?

BtW, Xehanort has no qualms connecting his heart with others as we already have seen multiple times (Braig, Saix, yep, and also Vanitas => golden eyes, pointy ears). He will do that if it gains himself a benefit somehow and MX also has not a single problem dominating Vanitas...especially if his heart was badly wounded after Ven destroyed the x-blade.
That's the big difference between how Sora and Xehanort use their heart-connection powers: Sora uses it to help others while Xehanort only does it for his own gain.

 

[Absolute]

That could be a possible explanation. Terra's (with Eraqus's inside) and MX's hearts were literally fused together into one, so that heart-"conglomerate" went to Ansem SoD. When Ansem SoD then was destroyed at DiZ's Encoder exploding Terra's heart somehow managed to latch onto Riku's, explaining the "part of Terra" that Riku holds.
Vanitas's heart, after the destruction of the x-blade as badly wounded and crippled as Ven's, remained stuck inside Apprentice Xehanort's (originally Terra's) body which was then inhabited by Xemnas.
That would explain for one why Xemnas could only feel negative and bad emotions (hate and rage, his own words in KH II) and his obsession with finding Ventus would become an other meaning beside Terra's memories.

The only error with this I see is that if Xemnas had Vanitas's heart and it was the only one his hair would have needed to become black, not Xehanort-silver.
After all, Roxas also gained Ven's golden blonde hair instead of Sora's brown.

Darn, that 'Vanitas heart in Xemnas' theory was sounding really good and was connecting pretty well until the appearance problem came up. Ven's heart was enough to turn Sora's body into a near duplicate of Ven's body, so in theory, Vanitas in Xemnas should have done the same. Although, it was fitting nicely with Xemnas' actions: forming Kingdom hearts which is related to the X-Blade which Vanitas wanted for salvation, calling Aqua's armor old friend takes on another tone if it was Vanitas (since Vanitas is technically Ven)knowing only negative emotions which Unverse were.

 

[alexis.anagram]

Regarding Terra sensing Vanitas's heart, do you really think that Terra's senses are as good as MX's? Especially with MX being the dominant force?

I don't know that Terra is as helpless against Master Xehanort as people assume he is. Terra undergoes a major shift in composure which we see in Blank Points; I don't know that Terra would immediately identify Vanitas, specifically, but I definitely think he would have been capable of sensing another heart inhabiting the space they shared.

BtW, Xehanort has no qualms connecting his heart with others as we already have seen multiple times (Braig, Saix, yep, and also Vanitas => golden eyes, pointy ears).

When did he connect his heart to Braig or Saix?

He will do that if it gains himself a benefit somehow and MX also has not a single problem dominating Vanitas...especially if his heart was badly wounded after Ven destroyed the x-blade.

It's not a question of him being able to dominate Vanitas, but rather a question of what would happen considering what Vanitas's heart is. Pure darkness, functioning entirely on negative emotion like hate and rage, capable of spawning monsters like the Unversed. Vanitas's heart is chaos incarnate, and I don't think Xehanort would link with it because the effects would be unpredictable, even for him.

 

[Absolute]

It may not be easy for Terra to sense Vanitas. Ironically, while Terra's objective in his story was to find Vanitas, the only time he even meets him face to face is at the end of the game and in that miniboss fight before fighting MX. So his exposure to Vanitas' heart is really low.

 

[alexis.anagram]

It may not be easy for Terra to sense Vanitas. Ironically, while Terra's objective in his story was to find Vanitas, the only time he even meets him face to face is at the end of the game and in that miniboss fight before fighting MX. So his exposure to Vanitas' heart is really low.

Which is why I said he might not immediately recognize Vanitas, specifically.
I mean, this is all speculative and hypothetical because we don't even really know how "sensing" darkness and hearts and whatnot even really works. I just think a whole other being existing in coherence with Xehanort would come across to Terra pretty quick. I don't think he would have been as collected as he was in Blank Points.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Darn, that 'Vanitas heart in Xemnas' theory was sounding really good and was connecting pretty well until the appearance problem came up. Ven's heart was enough to turn Sora's body into a near duplicate of Ven's body, so in theory, Vanitas in Xemnas should have done the same. Although, it was fitting nicely with Xemnas' actions: forming Kingdom hearts which is related to the X-Blade which Vanitas wanted for salvation, calling Aqua's armor old friend takes on another tone if it was Vanitas (since Vanitas is technically Ven)knowing only negative emotions which Unverse were.

Yep, but that's why it is only a theory. *ggg*.
Xemnas not having Vanitas's black hair is really a big flaw in the whole construct except if there is something Xehanort-related in Xemnas that has priority over Vanitas's most likely totally crippled heart.

Well, calling Aqua's armor "friend" was more like due to the memories of Terra that Xemnas had, this can be traced back to that and makes more sense than Vanitas since while he was made from Ven (from Ventus riven, O-tone MX), he does not share any of Ven's characteristics or traits.
He's a new heart formed from a part of another heart, so he can't be really compared to Roxas in that regard as Roxas is a hybrid-being formed out of elements from both Sora and Ven.

The only knowing negative emotions for Xemnas would be very fitting for him though...also since he thinks that hearts are only made up of negative feelings (Vanitas's heart is that as well).

I don't know that Terra is as helpless against Master Xehanort as people assume he is. Terra undergoes a major shift in composure which we see in Blank Points; I don't know that Terra would immediately identify Vanitas, specifically, but I definitely think he would have been capable of sensing another heart inhabiting the space they shared.


When did he connect his heart to Braig or Saix?


It's not a question of him being able to dominate Vanitas, but rather a question of what would happen considering what Vanitas's heart is. Pure darkness, functioning entirely on negative emotion like hate and rage, capable of spawning monsters like the Unversed. Vanitas's heart is chaos incarnate, and I don't think Xehanort would link with it because the effects would be unpredictable, even for him.

No one spoke about Terra being helpless against Xehanort, I only spoke about Terra's senses regarding other hearts not as refined as MX's.
Furthermore, Terra's heart was totally engulfed by Xehanort's darkness, so it would be easy for Xehanort to hide Vanitas's wounded dark heart away.
Remember, Yen Sid also couldn't sense Ven's heavily wounded heart and he is at Xehanort's level. After the x-blade's destruction both hearts were so badly injured they couldn't be sensed anymore except by those connected the closest to them, which in Ven's case was Sora.

We don't exactly know when, but Nomura explained to us that the golden eyes and pointy ears (on the example of Braig in the interview) indicate a very close connection to Xehanort.
And what connection is deeper than between hearts?
Braig/Xigbar, Saix and Vanitas all fulfill the criteria.
It's even seeable with Sora and Ven...due to their deep connection they have the exact same sapphire-blue eyes.

You seem to forget that after being trashed by Ven and the backlash of the destroyed X-blade Vanitas's heart should not be or just barely able to function at all. There would not be much risk for Xehanort that way, and he would have a sure-fire way to keep a pure dark heart around for later use.

 

[nubstyle]

I do see a small logical error here since no person ever spawned two nobodies.

Didnt Sora kinda spawn 2 nobodies?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Didnt Sora kinda spawn 2 nobodies?

Nope, Sora spawned Roxas.
Naminé was spawned by Kairi's heart using Sora's body and soul.
2 hearts involved.

 

[alexis.anagram]

No one spoke about Terra being helpless against Xehanort, I only spoke about Terra's senses regarding other hearts not as refined as MX's.
Furthermore, Terra's heart was totally engulfed by Xehanort's darkness, so it would be easy for Xehanort to hide Vanitas's wounded dark heart away.
Remember, Yen Sid also couldn't sense Ven's heavily wounded heart and he is at Xehanort's level. After the x-blade's destruction both hearts were so badly injured they couldn't be sensed anymore except by those connected the closest to them, which in Ven's case was Sora.

OK, I can see this.

We don't exactly know when, but Nomura explained to us that the golden eyes and pointy ears (on the example of Braig in the interview) indicate a very close connection to Xehanort.
And what connection is deeper than between hearts?
Braig/Xigbar, Saix and Vanitas all fulfill the criteria.

The pointy ears and yellow eyes are a result of exposure to the darkness; for Braig, he gained those when he accepted Xehanort's allegiance with the darkness (probably also aided by Terra's use of the darkness against him), for Saix it's presently unclear, although it's probably something similar. And Braig and Saix were both very close to Xehanort and Xemnas as affiliates within the Organization; however, stating definitively that he had linked hearts with them based on a vague statement from Nomura is far-fetched. Based on your assessment that Xehanort will link hearts with people so long as he stands to gain from it, how would he benefit from connecting with Braig or Isa/Saix?

It's even seeable with Sora and Ven...due to their deep connection they have the exact same sapphire-blue eyes.

Has this been confirmed as having anything to do with Sora and Ven's hearts being connected? If Sora has blue eyes because he and Ven are connected, why doesn't he have blonde hair, too? Anyway, I don't think you're wrong; Sora's blue eyes may have to do with his and Ven's hearts, but that doesn't confirm that Xehanort ever linked hearts with Braig or Saix, so it's not exactly relevant.

You seem to forget that after being trashed by Ven and the backlash of the destroyed X-blade Vanitas's heart should not be or just barely able to function at all. There would not be much risk for Xehanort that way, and he would have a sure-fire way to keep a pure dark heart around for later use.

But he would have had to have connected with Vanitas's heart prior to the formation and destruction of the x-blade (in the same way Sora connected with Ven's before any of that) so that Vanitas's heart would know to seek his out once it was shattered. So, Vanitas would have been fully functioning at the time Xehanort linked hearts with him. If connected hearts really do affect one another the way you've said they do, Xehanort would be playing a wild card with Vanitas's. I don't see it as being a safe enough route that he would choose to take it. I could be wrong, though.

 

[billyzanesucks]

The pointy ears and yellow eyes are a result of exposure to the darkness; for Braig, he gained those when he accepted Xehanort's allegiance with the darkness (probably also aided by Terra's use of the darkness against him), for Saix it's presently unclear, although it's probably something similar. And Braig and Saix were both very close to Xehanort and Xemnas as affiliates within the Organization; however, stating definitively that he had linked hearts with them based on a vague statement from Nomura is far-fetched. Based on your assessment that Xehanort will link hearts with people so long as he stands to gain from it, how would he benefit from connecting with Braig or Isa/Saix?

It was confirmed, actually, that it's a sign of a connection to Xehanort. Don't feel like finding it now, but I definitely remember it. I don't see it being very far-fetched. Changes like that in this series almost always come from some sort of strong connection to the heart. During MX's and Terra's conversation, MX said something like "You're just one of many paths I may choose to take. I made certain of that". It seems obvious what he would gain from it; extra forces, possible X-Blade material, and of course a back-up in case worse comes to worst.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

OK, I can see this.

Ok.

The pointy ears and yellow eyes are a result of exposure to the darkness; for Braig, he gained those when he accepted Xehanort's allegiance with the darkness (probably also aided by Terra's use of the darkness against him), for Saix it's presently unclear, although it's probably something similar. And Braig and Saix were both very close to Xehanort and Xemnas as affiliates within the Organization; however, stating definitively that he had linked hearts with them based on a vague statement from Nomura is far-fetched. Based on your assessment that Xehanort will link hearts with people so long as he stands to gain from it, how would he benefit from connecting with Braig or Isa/Saix?

No, this is not Star Wars here, that is an old misconception. If it was only the darkness, Riku and Terra as well as Pete would have needed the golden eyes too.
Funny thing is that Ansem the Wise, despite being close to darkness as DiZ, retained his orange eyes..because he's not closely connected with Xehanort.
How would he benefit? More new bodies at his disposal if Terra's fails. Xehanort has left "many roads open" and scattered some seeds.

Here's the statement in question just for reference, no indication in any form of "darkness"

Spoiler Show

-- Comparing the Organization members when they were human to when they were in the Organization, apart from Xehanort, only Isa and Braig have differently-shaped ears and differently-coloured eyes - why is this?

Nomura: It's a question of whether or not they're deeply connected to Xehanort. In Braig's case, comparing the scene where he's injured in his battle with Terra and flares up at Xehanort, his appearance afterwards changes, which hints that something happened with Xehanort in between.

Has this been confirmed as having anything to do with Sora and Ven's hearts being connected? If Sora has blue eyes because he and Ven are connected, why doesn't he have blonde hair, too? Anyway, I don't think you're wrong; Sora's blue eyes may have to do with his and Ven's hearts, but that doesn't confirm that Xehanort ever linked hearts with Braig or Saix, so it's not exactly relevant.

Not exactly outright said, but it is easily seeable that Sora's and Ven's eyes are exactly the same. I.e. Kairi's and Terra's blue is a darker shade and Aqua's eyes are lighter, there can a difference be seen, not so with Sora and Ven.
Because hair is apparently not affected by a close heart connection, Saix also didn't get Xehanort's silver hair nor do Braig or Vanitas.
True, it can't be proven yet but the similarities are there nonetheless.

But he would have had to have connected with Vanitas's heart prior to the formation and destruction of the x-blade (in the same way Sora connected with Ven's before any of that) so that Vanitas's heart would know to seek his out once it was shattered. So, Vanitas would have been fully functioning at the time Xehanort linked hearts with him. If connected hearts really do affect one another the way you've said they do, Xehanort would be playing a wild card with Vanitas's. I don't see it as being a safe enough route that he would choose to take it. I could be wrong, though.

That's true.
The only thing I said the connected hearts "affect" each other is partly in appearance. Sora hadn't any disadvantage by connecting with Ven's heart and was happily playing with Riku. Ventus, once his heart was fully healed due to the care of Eraqus, Terra and Aqua also seemed to be not affected at all by his connection with Sora's heart. I doubt it would be any different with Vanitas and Xehanort.
Remember also: Vanitas's heart was also always connected to a degree with Ven's because the core of his heart originated from there...Ven had not any negative impact from that either during the 4 years he was with Eraqus, Terra and Aqua.