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(SPOILERS) Union X: Breath of Darkness



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Zettaflare

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You know, if Darkness is still in Ventus's heart I wonder how that is going to effect the present day? I suddenly have a suspicious feeling if they are still in the Dark Realm, Ventus might be used to knock out Terra and Aqua and strand them there. Not really a original idea because again, Aqua has a villa home in RoD but it'll be interesting to see what this means for the future for Ventus.
Well it would make sense for Darkness to creep out in the RoD since he would naturally be stronger in his element.

Though I don't think he would be able to trap Terra and Aqua since they should have the means to come and go this time.
 

ShardofTruth

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If so then I would absolutely see Darkness as the good guy here or at least a third party, working against the MoM after Luxu told her the truth. Realizing that the MoM is an absolute psychopath and needs to be stopped.
I think your interpretation is the other extreme honestly. We know MoM did awful things but Darkness is no different with killing Strelitzia and using Ven to cover it up.
 

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In regards to Ava, maybe it is time to remember the deadly sin she's named after: Greed.

Maybe one group of Dandelions is not enough. There have to be multiple groups of them in each worldline and every generation.
And it is Ava's job to find them, bring them somehow together by playing "fate/destiny" and then prepare an ordeal for them to face.
This includes each group of "new" Dandelions getting confronted by a form of darkness in some horrible and trying events to "weed out the weak" and conserve the ones strong enough who withstood the incarnation of Darkness and those then are "sent off" to the next world incarnation.

Edit: Thinking more about it, maybe that's what the actual Keyblade War is! Each Keyblade "War" we get to see (the one in Browser Chi, the one in the finale of KH III etc.) is in truth one of multiple Keyblade "Battles" fought in the wider war but those participating don't know it is just one battle in a wider war, one fought across universes, world- and timelines, with only "Darkness" and the MoM seeing the whole "battlefield" and plotting entire war campaigns with everyone we know so far, including Xehanort and the Foretellers being just pawns in different theatres of war.
I think Sephiroth0812 and Spockanort ideas of how the series' plot will develop is interesting. This could pretty much be Nomura creating his own Avengers, meaning that KH3 wasn't Endgame, but rather Endgame Part I. I also have an idea that each Worldline has his own Sora and what the MoM is doing is weeding out every Worldline's Sora and make a sort of Power Rangers/Worldline Warriors team in order to get rid of darkness.

This is possibly how the MoM intends to get rid of Darkness forever: have various TRUE Guardians of Light fight the Darkness and end it forever.

That is LITERALLY the plot of Dissidia Final Fantasy, though. More specifically Duodecim and the Gacha game (which is really good, by the way).

.. Not that I don't see it happening, but to have the entire KH work as a setup for that.. I'm not sure if I like it. lol
 

Chie

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I think your interpretation is the other extreme honestly. We know MoM did awful things but Darkness is no different with killing Strelitzia and using Ven to cover it up.
That's not "no different". Killing someone is bad but hardly equivalent to destroying the whole world and manipulating countless people into killing eachother, never mind his emotional abuse of the foretellers who looked up to him.
 

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I think I have figured out the clock. It appears to be a red herring.

First, the talk about 6:00 was me misinterpreting the tail end of the minute hand as being the hour hand. You can ignore that.

Strelitzia said that she would wake up early and wait for the player at the fountain. She was doing that when her Chirithy told her that the player had been seen at the building. The player and Skuld had left even earlier to look for Gula. So, the whole thing must have happened early in the morning.

The tower seems to have (at least) two clock faces, presumably one on each side. On most (perhaps all) scenes in the game, the clock shows 6:25. It must have stopped at that time (really, it is the developers being lazy and always using the same image). Exception is the scene where the war starts, there the clock moves from 11:59 to 12:00, causing the bells to ring. This must be the other face. But the bells ringing is not normal, since Gula immediately understands the war has started. And the time actually being 12:00 does not make sense, because it is supposed to be early in the morning, so this clock does not work properly either. I think it too had stopped, and the keyblade strike was just pushed it forward by one minute.
 

Hirokey123

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I'm am like 90% certain sending TAV into the realm of darkness is specifically so Nomura could torment them with their own inner darkness because now all three have something inside of them.

Xehanort is gone but Terra still lived with Terranort as a thing for years, his dark memories of his time connected to Xehanort can easily manifest in the RoD as a mirage of Terranort. Aqua has her whole anti-Aqua thing she still hasn't in any capacity properly dealt with, we've seen first hand the trauma Aqua suffered is still in there and still able to cripple her. Ventus has "Darkness" inside him whoever or whatever it is not to mention Vanitas. If anything the RoD is the last place those three should be going together and we all know how evil Nomura is.

CoM: My name is Riku and I'm still struggling with the darkness in me but I'll make my way to the light and Mickey will be by my side.
Days/KH2: My name is Ansem (Riku), everything sucks, I failed against my struggle, I isolated myself from my friends, I will live in darkness forever.

Coded: I'm data Namine these memories inside of Sora are dangerous so I had to test him and make sure Sora be okay otherwise they could break his heart and cause him to fall into darkness, but you've proven Sora will be fine.
DDD: My name is Sora and Xehanort used the memories inside me to screw with my head and make me fall into darkness, Riku saved me but I lost a bunch of stuff in the process.

0.2: I am Master Aqua and after all these horrible troubles I've faced I'm traumatized but I won't fall, I'll keep moving on and be the light in the darkness to guide and help the next person who falls into here.
KH3: Hi Aqua I'm Xehanort allow me to force all your repressed trauma to the surface against your will so you fall to darkness and become a villain who tries to murder everyone out of bitterness, don't worry you'll be saved eventually though.


So when Riku worries about Aqua going back to the realm of darkness and she smiles telling us it will all be okay because she won't be alone this time....I'd trust that statement about as much as I'd trust Larxene with a journal containing my fears.

That's not "no different". Killing someone is bad but hardly equivalent to destroying the whole world and manipulating countless people into killing eachother, never mind his emotional abuse of the foretellers who looked up to him.

This, killing a person is a bad thing but it's not even remotely on a comparable level to what the MoM has done.
 

ShardofTruth

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That's not "no different". Killing someone is bad but hardly equivalent to destroying the whole world and manipulating countless people into killing eachother, never mind his emotional abuse of the foretellers who looked up to him.
And putting Ven through a murder is no emotional abuse or what? We know a lot less about Darkness than about the MoM. Maybe it killed thousands of people too and destroyed whole worlds, who knows? Maybe that's the reason the MoM wants it gone not because he can't accept the world changed. That part is pure speculation.

If anything Darkness proves that darkness is no passive force that is simply manipulated by power hungry individuals to further their goals. So it's probably not a matter of accepting the world as it but instead a struggle beween contradicting forces that is still going on.
 

Cumguardian69

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That's not "no different". Killing someone is bad but hardly equivalent to destroying the whole world and manipulating countless people into killing eachother, never mind his emotional abuse of the foretellers who looked up to him.
I disagree. The "manipulation" MoM did, or rather the lack of intervention, is not evil in itself. He set the rules and they refused to do any thinking for themselves. It's no different from IRL Christians, Jews, Islams taking their holy book and twisting it to sectarian fights and wars amongst themselves.

Anyone who views the Master's teachings with a critical eye would know to observe, watch, observe and act only whena bsolutely necessary. But the Clown Squad and all the kids therein chose an early demise
 

Chie

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And putting Ven through a murder is no emotional abuse or what?
It's an awful thing to do, but my key point here is that the Master of Masters was in a position of power over the foretellers. He took advantage of his position as their master and the trust they had in him to manipulate them. It's a very "real" form of abuse. Darkness on the other hand just does what he wants to do directly. It's cruel, but not in service of his own ego or to gain power over others. Although if Darkness is Ava this changes things quite a bit.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Ven being possessed and used by Darkness makes the most sense for how Strelitzia's death was to play out. Especially after the information we got from Re:Mind. Leading up to this update, I was pretty much thinking it was either going to be Darkness or Gula who did the deed.

By how update ended I think this'll just lead to the scene, that Ven recalled about being chosen as a Union Leader. I think it's too early to say, if Ava is Darkness or it just took her form.

I'm kind of curious as to how Ven factors into MoM's plans it's obvious he knew that Ven would take a spot among the Union Leaders and end up in the future, seeing he witnessed it all through the gazing eye. Is this all part of his plan?

To be honest I am still on the impression that Gula is involved somehow although I don't have a tangible theory yet on how.
I do have a hunch that Gula and Ven might be connected somehow, perhaps another sibling pair with Gula being the older brother?
A bit farfetched at the moment I know, yet I recently re-watched Back Cover and noticed Gula's pants under his robes:
Gula_and_Ava.png
They do look a little similar to Ven's and after now writing about Ven's self-esteem issues and his diffident outlock I realized that this could come as well from a) Gula and Ven being on their own and thus Gula technically being Ven's Guardian, b) Ven often left to himself because Gula is busy with Foreteller stuff, the Lost Page and similar stuff and c) being exposed to Gula's increasingly erratic and despairing behavior including the whole "Trust only yourself"-stuff. Ventus is a 12year old kid who is shown to on the inside wanting to have friends and be social, the exact opposite of what Gula is. If Ven gets increasingly exposed to Gula's rather toxic viewpoints in the rare cases he's around he would certainly start to doubt himself and be "a loner" because that's what his big brother is too and despite himself not liking it, it is the closest role model he has.

But that goes obviously somewhat more into psychological analysis rather than any true story hints.

As for Ven's factoring into MoMs plans it might have to do with the whole "too pure" and "too kind"-attributes that are so often mentioned in regards to Ven.
Blaine and Xehanort mention it, "Darkness" does in Re: Mind and if I recall correctly both Skuld and Lauriam also comment in some UX story updates about these traits.
It also seems that despite suffering so often and so much Ven still finds it inside himself to not give up or into despair throughout any of his appearances so despite it all his heart is pretty strong and has some strong will and inner resilience.

Who knows, all the gathered Lux in Browser-Chi must have ended up somewhere and Gula did want to summon KH. Maybe that failed but in order to preserve all that Lux he transferred it into Ven's heart?
Maybe all that Lux was also used by Darkness to conceal itself within Ven and then there is of course also still the issue of Xehanort seeing Ven as good material to try and use a shortcut to get the X-blade.

See, now this is so entirely my shit that I'm going to be really disappointed if this isn't true. Though obviously that scene where MoM talked about his past suggests so many huge things that it has to go SOMEWHERE interesting like this. (Right?)

Maybe some day I should make a thread explaining how Nomura seems to borrow from the Kill the Past series, which has similar themes.
It's right now a shot into the blue without any real hints or story beats to add credence to it, but I think the main scenario could eventually expand into this or something similar.
A war is never just one single battle, that would be either just a battle or a skirmish. A war is a series of battles that can involve different armies, theatres(locations) and even times so the frame would fit even if it would be a war expanded to involve more than worlds but entire worldlines or universes.

I think Sephiroth0812 and Spockanort ideas of how the series' plot will develop is interesting. This could pretty much be Nomura creating his own Avengers, meaning that KH3 wasn't Endgame, but rather Endgame Part I. I also have an idea that each Worldline has his own Sora and what the MoM is doing is weeding out every Worldline's Sora and make a sort of Power Rangers/Worldline Warriors team in order to get rid of darkness.

This is possibly how the MoM intends to get rid of Darkness forever: have various TRUE Guardians of Light fight the Darkness and end it forever.

Certainly one possibility, although there are several on how the actual "erasing" of Darkness could ultimately unfold. MoM states it involves lots of preparation but that too can have several different meanings.
For example, even the creation of entire new beings not by biological birth like Roxas, Xion and Naminé could be part of those preparations.

I think your interpretation is the other extreme honestly. We know MoM did awful things but Darkness is no different with killing Strelitzia and using Ven to cover it up.

Right now, even without knowing more about what else Darkness did I'd advise to be cautious about both of them. It is possible that they're both more on the awful side and I do not think that playing "who is the worst"-olympics will help anything and I doubt Sora & co would join either of them based on who of them caused less trauma and pain.

As much as I dread it, I'd say that even teaming up with Xehanort in the future might be the lesser evil instead of choosing either the MoM or "Darkness".

That's not "no different". Killing someone is bad but hardly equivalent to destroying the whole world and manipulating countless people into killing eachother, never mind his emotional abuse of the foretellers who looked up to him.

It's not only "killing someone" but also using and abusing Ven in several ways just like Xehanort did and as ShardofTruth pointed out we don't know what else possible atrocities and other heinous actions "Darkness" may have pulled elsewhere on other characters, worlds and possibly even worldlines.
The MoM is definitely in shady territory so it might be an "evil vs evil" situation or a "this universe's gods are jerkasses"-variant so that Sora, Ven and the others need to actually defeat/vanquish both the MoM and Darkness or these beings might simply operate on an entirely different scale of "morality" or what is actually "good and evil".

The fact that hearts and memories are immortal and with a bit of effort a being can be completely restored/reconstructed might also lower inhibitions in-universe quite some bit, regardless of the trauma and possibly lasting mental damage caused.
The latter two are frankly also all too often even ignored, belittled or even mocked in our own world often enough.
 

Xagzan

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I disagree. The "manipulation" MoM did, or rather the lack of intervention, is not evil in itself. He set the rules and they refused to do any thinking for themselves. It's no different from IRL Christians, Jews, Islams taking their holy book and twisting it to sectarian fights and wars amongst themselves.

Eh not to get off topic but that is a massive and somewhat misleading oversimplification of scriptural history and interpretation.

Anyway frankly I still don't think we know enough about what the hell is going on to firmly judge the Master yet. Because despite the cheeky meta cutscene between him and Luxu, it wasn't the fans who overcomplicated things.
 

Chie

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A war is never just one single battle, that would be either just a battle or a skirmish. A war is a series of battles that can involve different armies, theatres(locations) and even times so the frame would fit even if it would be a war expanded to involve more than worlds but entire worldlines or universes.
Well, in theory we have both Daybreak Town and the Keyblade Graveyard as locations, but what the Graveyard actually is is pretty unclear, since Daybreak turned into Scala instead of KG. I know it's been speculated that the KG is actually a remnant of a different "Keyblade War" but we do see Luxu watching it in 0.2, so even the main "Keyblade War" we know of we're missing some pieces.
 

the red monster

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Who knows, all the gathered Lux in Browser-Chi must have ended up somewhere and Gula did want to summon KH. Maybe that failed but in order to preserve all that Lux he transferred it into Ven's heart?
Maybe all that Lux was also used by Darkness to conceal itself within Ven and then there is of course also still the issue of Xehanort seeing Ven as good material to try and use a shortcut to get the X-blade.

This actually makes a lot of sense and such a nomura thing to do.
 

Eonstar890

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Not really. Both Xehanort and Eraqus seem to have memories of the UX time, and it's not limited to the player character alone.

Well we don't know that for sure with Eraqus. Yes they both said that thing that one time but that doesn't automatically mean Eraqus is having the same dreams and experiences Xehanort has been show to have. It is clear to see that Xehanort went to Wonderland in search of Darkness and from his conversation with the MoM it seems that seeing this darkness in the worlds is what led him to the conclusion that he needed to fix everything. The MoM agreed with his sentiment further pushing him towards thats goal.

My main point being that so far nothing darkness has done seems to directly or indirectly interfere with the MoM plan. From the secret reports in KH3 we know not even Luxu knows who this darkness is.

It is possible that Darkness is somehow being manipulated by the MoM but is trying to work against him but the questions still stands. Why get rid of Strelitzia? Why place Ventus among the leaders? Why stay in this boys heart all this time afterwards?
 

Noivern

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Well, in theory we have both Daybreak Town and the Keyblade Graveyard as locations, but what the Graveyard actually is is pretty unclear, since Daybreak turned into Scala instead of KG. I know it's been speculated that the KG is actually a remnant of a different "Keyblade War" but we do see Luxu watching it in 0.2, so even the main "Keyblade War" we know of we're missing some pieces.

This is unproven. Daybreak Town turning into Scala is purely a theory so far based on the fight in KH3 which, for all we know, happened inside Xehanort's heart, so it's not the true Scala. The town being underwater on the underside of the city could just be because of Xehanort's memories of that time, for all we know.
While there is basis to consider that to be the case, we have yet to see what really happened. Besides, UX happens before the worlds were split according to Kairi's Grandma backstory, so the Keyblade Graveyard could just be another part of Daybreak, really.


Well we don't know that for sure with Eraqus. Yes they both said that thing that one time but that doesn't automatically mean Eraqus is having the same dreams and experiences Xehanort has been show to have. It is clear to see that Xehanort went to Wonderland in search of Darkness and from his conversation with the MoM it seems that seeing this darkness in the worlds is what led him to the conclusion that he needed to fix everything. The MoM agreed with his sentiment further pushing him towards thats goal.

My main point being that so far nothing darkness has done seems to directly or indirectly interfere with the MoM plan. From the secret reports in KH3 we know not even Luxu knows who this darkness is.

It is possible that Darkness is somehow being manipulated by the MoM but is trying to work against him but the questions still stands. Why get rid of Strelitzia? Why place Ventus among the leaders? Why stay in this boys heart all this time afterwards?

Even if Eraqus doesn't have the memories of that time as well, it was show that Xehanort remembers the Union Masters as well, while player was nowhere to be seen in that scene. So his connection is not with the Player itself, but with that era as whole, it seems.
 

Hirokey123

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This is unproven. Daybreak Town turning into Scala is purely a theory so far based on the fight in KH3 which, for all we know, happened inside Xehanort's heart, so it's not the true Scala. The town being underwater on the underside of the city could just be because of Xehanort's memories of that time, for all we know.
There is a puppet theater like machine in Re:Mind that shows Daybreak turning into Scala and I'm like 52% certain Nomura even confirmed that Scala is modern day Daybreak town, this is not a theory.
 

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There is a puppet theater like machine in Re:Mind that shows Daybreak turning into Scala and I'm like 52% certain Nomura even confirmed that Scala is modern day Daybreak town, this is not a theory.
IIRC, the theater machine only shows the town rotating from Daybreak to Scala, which could just signify the home of the Keyblade Masters changing; That is, unless Nomura did confirm it somewhere.

It's not that I necessarily disagree with that possibility, I just don't recall it being canon anywhere in the games and I admit I don't keep track 100% with all of Nomura's interviews, but unless he made it pretty clear I'd rather not take only those hints as canon, seeing as currently we consider Scala and Land of Departure as different worlds as well.
 

kirabook

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Scala is pretty confirmed to be the ruins of Daybreak Town. I too remember Nomura briefly mentioning it. Even with "death of the author", there's the mural in Scala depicting "broken" Daybreak Town turning into Scala PLUS the fight in KH3 with the ruined tower under the water (which again, is exactly what the mural was depicting)

I must be honest, I'm a little bothered that people watched this cutscene and still believe Ven pulled the trigger/is evil and killed Strelitzia. How much more obvious could it be that not only was he controlled, but it seems he didn't even lift a finger or do anything to Strelitzia at all, he was just there to witness it?
 

Violet Pluto

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I believe Darkness is Vanitas, just with whatever little darkness Ven had influencing it. Vanitas did actually say in Remind that he was different from Ven, and when Sora dived into Ven's Heart which reabsorbed Vanitas in the end of BBS (the Vanitas we have in KH3 is following the time travel rules like everyone else) he found "Darkness" That apparently didn't want him in Ven's heart there. Updates like this only strengthen that theory.
It doesn't really redefine concept of darkness. None of the characters in the current timeline understood what Darkness was - KH2 made it clear that they have essentially baseless fears of dark beings, akin to racism, and that they refuse to understand darkness as a concept. This still goes hand in hand with learning to control PERSONAL darkness, which is understood to be weakness associated with feelings of hatred, rage, and other such things.

I wouldn't say Racism at all. Unlike racism Darkness is something within (mostly) everybody and people under it's influence continuously do horrible and evil things. This isn't to say that it can't be used for good, but there is a real and present danger associated with Darkness which is why people like Eraqus who have a great fear of Darkness aren't entirely wrong. Though his fear was partially because of already having a friend fall to Darkness before. I think you could say it's like having a gun. Anyone can have a gun. You can use the gun for good or ill, but people will obviously distance themselves from people who have it, and some will even disdain the wielder.
 

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Oy vey, that's a lot to unpack and reply to. So I'll just ramble on without quoting.

Scala ad Caelum is Daybreak Town, the Ultimania, the tower, and that thing in Breezy Quarter says it, not to mention the manhole cover that literally spells DAYBREAK. Speaking of, has anybody decoded the rest of the script yet?

Someone finally said it! How fights between 20 people count as a war confuse the heck out of me. They're battles at best. The only way it would've become a full-blown war is if Sora didn't use the Power of Waking, and continued on that first scenario where they all died and all the remaining wielders in hiding came out of the woodwork to the Graveyard to see what's going on.

I'm just gonna say it, though I think a lot of people already know it. That ark in Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion was most likely not the original thing. It's probably a reconstruction by the apprentices using Subject X's memory as a blueprint.

Clocktower says 6:00.

Strelitizia may have been searching awhile already before her Chirithy told her to check the empty house.

I don't know how young Ven is at this time. He could easily be ten or less for all we know. Wielders could be as young as four or something. That's a lot of child soldiers. I wouldn't say he's innocent though. At the very least, he IS an accessory.

This makes me curious though, what does a worldline look like if the war didn't happen. We know that the report says that peace is still just a dream, but how would that be known for sure? I'm calling it now, the world that has Shibuya in it is probably such a worldline, where the war didn't happen, but something else just as dangerous, if not more so, is going on.
 
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