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(SPOILERS) Union X: Breath of Darkness



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Clue.Less

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I could see Darkness changing by taking Ven's darkness. Vanitas does something like that by taking his present appearance when Ven's heart connects with Sora's and he does say that Sora 'defines' him in the same way that Ventus does.

I've probably asked this question countless times before but I still can't make sense of it: Ven's heart connects with Sora's AFTER Vanitas is split from Ven, so Vanitas can't take on Sora's appearance from contact with him (like Roxas looks like Ven because Ven's hearts was inside Sora's when the heartless/nobody split happened), can he? How does that work, then?
 
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I've probably asked this question countless times before but I still can't make sense of it: Ven's heart connects with Sora's AFTER Vanitas is split from Ven, so Vanitas can't take on Sora's appearance from contact with him (like Roxas looks like Ven because Ven's hearts was inside Sora's when the heartless/nobody split happened), can he? How does that work, then?
Well, even when separated, Ventus and Vanitas do have a sort of pyschic connection, in a BBS report Xehanort says Vanitas can feel some of what Ventus feels. And I guess this connection also allows Vanitas to take on Sora's appearance when his heart connects with Ven's, unless anyone has a better answer.
 

Clue.Less

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Well, even when separated, Ventus and Vanitas do have a sort of pyschic connection, in a BBS report Xehanort says Vanitas can feel some of what Ventus feels. And I guess this connection also allows Vanitas to take on Sora's appearance when his heart connects with Ven's, unless anyone has a better answer.

Okay, that works :D

The only thing is that Sora encounters Darkness within Ventus' heart while Vanitas is outside. So Vanitas can't 1:1 = Darkness.

But isn't the KH3 Vanitas a time-travelled heart? If so, it's not impossible to have Vanitas inside and Vanitas outside.

I don't think Vanitas = Darkness 1:1 either, I just need different pieces of evidence?
 

LoneFox

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There is one more thing that bothers me is why Ava gives the book to Strelitzia near the tower not on the hill?
She may have wanted to just get it done as fast as possible. She knew there wouldn't be much time before the war would start, and she couldn't do it earlier, because Strelitzia hadn't joined the Dandelions yet.

From this update, it looks like Ven's memory has been altered so that he has Strelitizia's memory because in previous update he remembers he did the same thing as Strelitizia
I like this idea. Something was clearly done to Ven's memory, because otherwise why didn't he remember the murder earlier? But false memories are supposed to be hard to create, Naminé was special because she was able to do it. An already existing memory from a different person would solve this issue. And then there are the foreign memories mentioned in Ven's character file. But I have to admit, I have a bias here, I want those to be Strelitzia's memories for reasons I have explained before in the shipping thread.
 

Chie

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But isn't the KH3 Vanitas a time-travelled heart? If so, it's not impossible to have Vanitas inside and Vanitas outside.
I wasn't sure since some of them aren't but apparently this is true. In which case this can make perfect sense. Though Darkness and Vanitas seem to talk totally different. I'd guess that when Darkness became Vanitas he took on elements of Ven's personality, and then went back to normal when he returned to inside of Ven.
 

yuyayuzu

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She may have wanted to just get it done as fast as possible. She knew there wouldn't be much time before the war would start, and she couldn't do it earlier, because Strelitzia hadn't joined the Dandelions yet.

But I still think it is strange that only Strelitizia got the book not on the hill. Well, we also don't know where Lauriam obtain the book and I wonder if he also got the book on the hill
 

LoneFox

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But I still think it is strange that only Strelitizia got the book not on the hill.
I agree, it can have some meaning...

Well, we also don't know where Lauriam obtain the book and I wonder if he also got the book on the hill
That is another item for the list of reasons why he doesn't belong. And I do want to see his reaction to being selected as one of the leaders, because I suspect it is quite different from the others.
 

Violet Pluto

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I like this idea. Something was clearly done to Ven's memory, because otherwise why didn't he remember the murder earlier? But false memories are supposed to be hard to create, Naminé was special because she was able to do it. An already existing memory from a different person would solve this issue. And then there are the foreign memories mentioned in Ven's character file. But I have to admit, I have a bias here, I want those to be Strelitzia's memories for reasons I have explained before in the shipping thread.
It's possible that Darkness only blocked Ven from remembering what happened in there, and when they were about to come out took on the form of Ava. Then everything from that point onward happened, but Ava being there was only an illusion. Not memory changing per say, but blocking and subverting with more important memories. Ven remembered becoming a leader more than he did going into the house, and thus didn't have to think about that moment in detail until later. When he did, the truth was revealed to him.
 

The_Echo

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I'd feel more inclined to this take myself, but Vanitas says rather curtly "What I am is Darkness" and mentions that "We're not the same like you think, I was just hidden inside of you for a really long time."
I just want to mention that that conversation, and specifically that line, are effectively rewritten from the original Japanese.
In JP, it's a conversation about having the freedom to choose and not being trapped by "what" you are, Ventus telling Vanitas he didn't need to be evil just because he was a dark heart.
What Vanitas originally says is "this is how I chose to live."
 

Cumguardian69

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In JP, it's a conversation about having the freedom to choose and not being trapped by "what" you are, Ventus telling Vanitas he didn't need to be evil just because he was a dark heart.
What Vanitas originally says is "this is how I chose to live."
That's the same thing as the ENG dub. Like...Ven says that they have the right to choose for themselves despite being sifted apart nice and neat. Ven is himself and Vanitas is himself, they aren't JUST light and darkness. Vanitas reaffirms that he did choose, and he chose to be darkness and all that entails. Ventus resigns himself, while SORA is the one that tries to fight against Van and Ven's resignation to their effectively predetermined roles.

Fellas just don't understand that Vanitas didn't say "I am Darkness (the character/entity)", and they are taking the ReMind cutscenes with the personality rewrite and Dark Inferno Chi way out of context
 

kirabook

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I was looking through my old posts and I suddenly saw something. Do you guys remember this? Think it has anything to do with what's going on with Ven?

WmYID0I.jpg
 

darknessofheart

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Oh god....I didn't even think about it but maybe the MoM really WAS telling the truth that he's too scared to ever take his off. But not because he's afraid of the darkness but rather in order to eradicate darkness just like Xehanort he'll have to wipe out all the hearts with darkness in them. Maybe his plan won't even allow him to choose who gets wiped out just that if there is darkness POOF they're gone. If that's the case then the MoM's actual reason for the coat can be interpreted "I'm to scared of Oblivion to take off my coat, I have to keep myself pure so I won't be eradicated when I execute my plan".

With the chess game you make a good point but I think it's more than just Sora. We have the MoM and his Foretellers remnants of a time in which darkness was the ultimate evil that needed to be crushed at any cost. Then we have Darkness who comes from a time in which the light created it then fearing what it created tried to wipe it from existence and that's sowed a belief that the darkness will never be safe so long as light persists and thus it seeks to wipe out the light. But then you have Sora's group who has been forged in light and darkness.

Sora is a light who never goes out but isn't above tapping into the darkness and doesn't hate the darkness. Kairi is a strong light as pure as they come but she's never feared the dark, be it hugging heartless Sora or jumping headlong into a corridor of darkness Kairi is light but without a fear and hate of the dark despite having every reason to. Riku is a being who exists in perfect harmony of light and darkness, bringing out the best of both and showing everyone who meets him another way than extremes.

Roxas, Xion, and Namine are beings born belonging to neither dark nor light and are aligned with neither. They are born from darkness but live in the light, they belong to the dark but they are good people who live amongst those of the light with little issue. They are an in between existence and their two other members Axel and Saix while born as people of light, have lived most of their life as in between beings which makes them able to understand both. Neither fear light nor dark they cross an intermingle with both forces. Just as the Sun sets and brings the dark and the moon is the light that lights up the dark.

Terra, Aqua, and Ventus were raised in a very light stringent home but in the end they've all learned the folly of that. It left Terra with deep self loathing issues and anger he could not control. It left Aqua with serious repression issues unable to handle it when her heart started to crack. It left Ventus feeling burnt out on the whole light and dark thing in general and just wanting to be a person of his own choice. Each of them fought against their darkness but it never solved the issue, instead it was their fight against the dark rather than an acceptance and dealing with it that lead them all to their tragedies they needed to be saved from. Now though they leap headlong into the darkest most dangerous realm we know, the realm of darkness, with a smile and almost eagerness.

Our heroes show the full spectrum of bad, good, and the middle area between the two. The follies of light and darkness as well as their strength and potential of unity. They are products of the world where light and darkness co-exist, they don't know another existence other than this one. Which is ultimately why they are a rejection of extremes, they together can create a balanced world where light and dark exist in harmony.
The other interesting aspect to these characters is many of them wouldn't exist without Xehanort and his various forms or wouldn't even know how to use the Keyblade.

Perhaps that's what MoM wanted Xehanort to do. Draw out the next generation of Keyblade wielders so he can then attempt to recruit them to destroy darkness. As you pointed out, this in itself would spell disaster for the universe. But I think it would be interesting if some of the heroes were initially persuaded to join the MoM before realizing the guy is off his rocker.

Everything that MoM does almost seems to be a test to weed out who he feels are the perfect guardians of light. He doesn't seem to feel that traditional training is enough to forge warriors: they need to be born and tested via true conflict and tragedy. We can even go a step further and say MoM is doing this on multiple worldlines with Yozora being a prime candidate in his reality.

So, now I'm picturing the chess board with three sets of pieces. MoM and his Foretellers on one side, darkness and its legions on another, and in the middle Sora and his allies rebelling both diluted sides.
 

Idreamaboutcats

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Probably reading too much into it. They’re illusions anyway that lead Aqua to somewhere. Maybe a trick of the RoD to get her to go deeper?

Ven’s status as an accessory or innocent aside (discounting the crime of stealing what shouldn’t be his even under outside influence), I’m more curious as to what the MoM is up to. He wants to defeat the darkness, but how? Going back to the reports, a worldline where the war didn’t happen still ended up undergoing some cataclysm. While in the current worldline (wherever and whenever that is since it seems a lot of people have been messing about with destiny, including Sora), he forced the hand of battle by writing down the book, which brought out projections of distant lands, encouraged the existence of the unions and the gathering of lux, not to mention the heartless that projected from said book even unto the Age of Prophecy when some worlds were still undergoing reconstruction, while also making a world of data to trap the kids in, and Maleficent too, manipulated the foretellers into distrusting each other until everyone was struggling to maintain the wrong balance and it all went to hell.

Darkness seems to know a lot about his plans for sure. How was it/she/whatever able to know even to the point where it knew that the seventh world of the princesses could not be projected to prevent Maleficent knowing more than she should? Then, why help her escape if it feared her gaining more knowledge? Was it just to shoo her away from the data world and the past?
 
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Darkness seems to know a lot about his plans for sure. How was it/she/whatever able to know even to the point where it knew that the seventh world of the princesses could not be projected to prevent Maleficent knowing more than she should? Then, why help her escape if it feared her gaining more knowledge? Was it just to shoo her away from the data world and the past?
Darkness wants to help Maleficent get back to the future so there is someone in the future who remembers them, which is necessary for Darkness and the other residents of the past to travel to the future themselves.
 

Sephiroth0812

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It's possible that Darkness only blocked Ven from remembering what happened in there, and when they were about to come out took on the form of Ava. Then everything from that point onward happened, but Ava being there was only an illusion. Not memory changing per say, but blocking and subverting with more important memories. Ven remembered becoming a leader more than he did going into the house, and thus didn't have to think about that moment in detail until later. When he did, the truth was revealed to him.

I agree with the notion that there were just some memories blocked rather than being changed or even replaced with other. Occam's Razor so to speak.
The heart is the seat of the memories and since Darkness seems to hide there them could have simply blocked some of Ven's memories. Now that Ven is actively trying to remember and Darkness no longer being present (as it is running around freely doing stuff) the memory can be accessed.
One thing I still find a bit suspicious is what exactly triggered the unblocking of the memories. In BBS Ventus had the headache-pain episodes of remembering something he formerly could not by both Master Xehanort (in the badlands) and Vanitas (on Destiny Islands) egging him on with some keywords. What was it this time? Brain's questions?
I was looking through my old posts and I suddenly saw something. Do you guys remember this? Think it has anything to do with what's going on with Ven?

WmYID0I.jpg
I dunno if it means something specific or if it was really just an oversight. We had this with Ventus-Vanitas' eyes being blue in a trailer during the opening as well.

Bit off topic but still, we know now that Terra is supposed to be around 19 and Ventus 16 so they're just 3 years apart age-wise yet either Terra has grown unusually tall or Ven is way too tiny for his supposed physical age!?
 

KeybladeLordSora

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I was looking through my old posts and I suddenly saw something. Do you guys remember this? Think it has anything to do with what's going on with Ven?

WmYID0I.jpg
No clue tbh. All I can guess is that it's an error on Ven's model but apparently KH3's novel has the same error.
 

LoneFox

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I agree with the notion that there were just some memories blocked rather than being changed or even replaced with other. Occam's Razor so to speak.
Assuming that the killer really is capable of disguising himself as Ava, this seems to be true. In fact, the simplest way to do it would be to summon Ven's Chirithy and order it to do the same procedure that was used to remove the Dandelions' memories of the Keyblade War. For it to work, either the killer's disguise must be good enough to fool the Chirithy, which I believe is much harder than fooling Ven himself, or the killer must be someone who the Chirithy obeys anyway (that is, one of the foretellers).

One thing I still find a bit suspicious is what exactly triggered the unblocking of the memories. In BBS Ventus had the headache-pain episodes of remembering something he formerly could not by both Master Xehanort (in the badlands) and Vanitas (on Destiny Islands) egging him on with some keywords. What was it this time? Brain's questions?
Perhaps it was the realization that he had been tricked?

Bit off topic but still, we know now that Terra is supposed to be around 19 and Ventus 16 so they're just 3 years apart age-wise yet either Terra has grown unusually tall or Ven is way too tiny for his supposed physical age!?
I guess it is a bit of both. Ven is about same size as Sora, and checking this is a good excuse to re-watch the cutest scene of the whole series, the one where they shake hands... :p
 
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