Star Wars: The Thread

[Dentim]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Spoiler Show

So I saw the movie (last saturday actually) and I liked it, though like Oracle I understand why others might not. The casino subplot could have been cut, that's true, but then again without (the failing of) that plot Poe would have remained the same at the end as he was at the beginning: a brash hothead that can't look at the bigger picture. The chain of command exists for a reason, and while sometimes it might be necessary to do so, just breaking it because you don't like the person in charge (who, in fairness, should have been a bit more forward with her exact plan) is no good at all.
On Snoke and Rey's parents: good job. And I mean that. Sure, I was curious too, but I really didn't need a Palpatine 2.0 (because that's all Snoke was, and I'm pretty sure TFA had some complaints concerning similarities to the OT). In the grand scheme of things he didn't matter: he was just there to provide a reason (or at least 1 of them) for Kylo's turn, and that's always been the case. Just like I never needed to know where Palpatine came from either, he was just there to facilitate Vader's turn.
Now Kylo could have been lying about Rey's parents but I hope he's not. We are talking about a series that takes place across several decades and star systems. Not everyone needs to be related to someone we already know. IMO they could do some better work with the characterization, but at least this allows people to look at Rey as herself, rather than an extension of some family.
I hate that some people (not talking necessarily about people here, so don't take this personal) keep theorizing and get ideas in their head of how the next movie "should be" and then get pissed off because it didn't happen to come true, it's something I've seen happen in several places over the last week There's nothing wrong with theorizing, but the film makers are absolutely not required to follow your line of thought.

Spoiler Show

The Prequel Universe, as it were, was mostly constructed (like the OT EU) after the fact, and builds on context which was already present in the saga proper. There's no requirement that a viewer watch TCW to make sense of what's happening in RotS: all of the key details from Palpatine's manipulation of the Republic (using the economic and political strains of war) to Anakin's feelings for Padme and fear of loss were suitably established throughout the films. TCW is great because it uses all of that to deepen the lore and mythos: Anakin's role as "chosen one," his self-reflective mentoring of Ahsoka (with all the shades of emotional vulnerability Sidious would appropriate in RotS to turn him), the fundamental catch 22 of the Jedi Order's structure and teachings (probably the one thing I wish the films had explored more directly, but it is present in both text and subtext), as well as some useful but non-critical insight into the goings-on in regions of the galaxy the films didn't visit.

That's different than...whatever happened with TFA. The system which is destroyed by Starkiller Base comes completely out of nowhere: there is zero indication given as to the extent of the damage done to the Republic in that moment because without reading these extra-cinematic materials one would never know the name of the planet or the significance of the people on it. That isn't "supplemental" information, that goes right to the heart of making sense of the scope and impact of the conflict. Were these random planets the FO was simply disposing of as proof of their might? Were they Republic strongholds or centers of government? Seats of power? Do they have carry personal import for our illustrious cast of new and old faces, such as when Leia witnesses her home planet destroyed in ANH? TFA never makes an internal effort to clarify what the audience sees in that moment, and that isn't a fluke: it's indicative of an egregious tendency in this new trilogy to dispense with any meaningful grasp on the universe as it stands and instead milk audience anticipation of a conflict they've already seen play out. After TLJ, the series is left with nowhere to go except right back where it started. Rebels vs the Empire-- for the sixth film running! Sensational.

Spoiler Show

"The FIRST ORDER reigns!

Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa's band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny, etc. etc."

From the opening crawl. The FO may or may not have achieved total domination (we, the audience, have no frame of reference for what that even means-- i.e. who belongs to the Republic, how many systems have already been captured), but the film makes it clear that Leia's small battalion of Resistance-ers is all that's left and that's why there's such danger to the galaxy. Leia even concedes at the end of the film when they try to send out a distress signal (to whom, we are again left wondering) and receive no response that it's all over and the FO has won, pretty much overnight. So, at best, the FO was on the verge of total victory somehow despite losing their massive planet lazer which was the crown jewel of their tyrannical efforts and the events of TLJ a few hours later solidified their supremacy. No matter how you slice it, that makes the scale of the conflict feel either absurdly limited or rushed.

Spoiler Show

1) This isn't in the film and therefore can't be used in defense of the film. Its internal logic fails or stands on its own merits.
2) This doesn't go to answering anything, anyway. The Republic is in total disarray? Why? Because of SKB? The planets it destroyed were that critical to the functioning of the government? Where is that information contained? In the Visual Dictionary? Oh boy. Again, it's not my job to go out of my way to make sense of the film by reading books and doing headstands. I will happily indulge extra-cinematic material which increases my understanding of elements of the film which are already present and spoken for, but one can't make the case that the films benefits from failing to incorporate important context which is nevertheless present elsewhere in the canon.

Spoiler Show

Sorry, but I have to nitpick here. During Hux's Nazi speech in TFA he said quite clearly what they were going to do. In his words: "This fierce machine which you have built, upon which we stand will bring an end to the Senate, to their cherished fleet! ALL REMAINING SYSTEMS WILL BOW TO THE FIRST ORDER!!! AND WILL REMEMBER THIS AS THE LAST DAY OF THE REPUBLIC!!!"
Then they fire and lo and behold: several planets get blown up. I'm sure he didn't mean to make that speech to his men and then decide to fire on some random planets. From context it was pretty clear what they did there. Now, I'll admit that maybe they could have done a better job portraying the Republic being in disarray, but then again when your government planet and fleet are literally blown up in one fell swoop what is there to show? Should we have gotten some shots of random citizens on assorted other planets, looking up at the sky with an angry look in their eyes and waving their fists saying: "Oh if only the First Order hadn't already blown up our fleets, someone could do something about them"?
They said they were going to destroy the government and their fleet, and they did. I'm pretty sure that the entirety of their government was located on 1 or more of those specific planets that got reckt, because I'm pretty sure trying to run a galaxy from across several different systems would be a logistical and impossible nightmare.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Spoiler Show

The Prequel Universe, as it were, was mostly constructed (like the OT EU) after the fact, and builds on context which was already present in the saga proper. There's no requirement that a viewer watch TCW to make sense of what's happening in RotS: all of the key details from Palpatine's manipulation of the Republic (using the economic and political strains of war) to Anakin's feelings for Padme and fear of loss were suitably established throughout the films. TCW is great because it uses all of that to deepen the lore and mythos: Anakin's role as "chosen one," his self-reflective mentoring of Ahsoka (with all the shades of emotional vulnerability Sidious would appropriate in RotS to turn him), the fundamental catch 22 of the Jedi Order's structure and teachings (probably the one thing I wish the films had explored more directly, but it is present in both text and subtext), as well as some useful but non-critical insight into the goings-on in regions of the galaxy the films didn't visit.

That's different than...whatever happened with TFA. The system which is destroyed by Starkiller Base comes completely out of nowhere: there is zero indication given as to the extent of the damage done to the Republic in that moment because without reading these extra-cinematic materials one would never know the name of the planet or the significance of the people on it. That isn't "supplemental" information, that goes right to the heart of making sense of the scope and impact of the conflict. Were these random planets the FO was simply disposing of as proof of their might? Were they Republic strongholds or centers of government? Seats of power? Do they have carry personal import for our illustrious cast of new and old faces, such as when Leia witnesses her home planet destroyed in ANH? TFA never makes an internal effort to clarify what the audience sees in that moment, and that isn't a fluke: it's indicative of an egregious tendency in this new trilogy to dispense with any meaningful grasp on the universe as it stands and instead milk audience anticipation of a conflict they've already seen play out. After TLJ, the series is left with nowhere to go except right back where it started. Rebels vs the Empire-- for the sixth film running! Sensational.

Spoiler Show

Not exactly zero since, as Dentim points out, General Hux outlined in his speech what the target was, explicitly mentioning the Senate so it is somewhat obvious that they were to target the Republic's capital and thus the entire upper echelon of the government bureaucracy.
Since Starkiller doesn't just destroy a planet but the entire targeted Star System with everything in it, the Republic's main home fleet was also annihilated (and while not confirmed anywhere, it can be deduced that the casualties included the bulk of the Republic High Command, possibly even a vast chunk of the Republic's Admiralty, leaving the remaining Local Sector Defense forces and Sector fleets without proper leadership).

The Visual Dictionary of TFA also doesn't give any detail on the current status of the Republic after the Starkiller attack (I dunno if the Visual Dictionary of TLJ does this, haven't read it), yet it gives us the name of the star system (Hosnian) and the name of the primary planet (Hosnian Prime, which at the time of TFA is the current capital of the New Republic).

Among the people shown there reacting with terror to the red beams approaching are many Senators and also the current Chancellor, Lanever Villecham, which is a not so subtle wordplay on real world British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and tells the audience everything it needs to know about how this Chancellor runs the New Republic and his stance on the First Order.
More interesting though is the single black woman shown there with a Resistance uniform, who is Korr Sella, a loyal follower and friend of Leia who served as an envoy of the Resistance to the New Republic, futilely trying to convince the Senate and Chancellor to take the First Order seriously and start to set the military on alert.

These are not "crucial" information, but as your example with Alderaan shows including them in TFA proper would perhaps have explained the context better.

Spoiler Show

"The FIRST ORDER reigns!

Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa's band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny, etc. etc."

From the opening crawl. The FO may or may not have achieved total domination (we, the audience, have no frame of reference for what that even means-- i.e. who belongs to the Republic, how many systems have already been captured), but the film makes it clear that Leia's small battalion of Resistance-ers is all that's left and that's why there's such danger to the galaxy. Leia even concedes at the end of the film when they try to send out a distress signal (to whom, we are again left wondering) and receive no response that it's all over and the FO has won, pretty much overnight. So, at best, the FO was on the verge of total victory somehow despite losing their massive planet lazer which was the crown jewel of their tyrannical efforts and the events of TLJ a few hours later solidified their supremacy. No matter how you slice it, that makes the scale of the conflict feel either absurdly limited or rushed.

Spoiler Show

Ah, that one, yeah, now I can see where the confusion comes from. In this case both TFA and TLJ certainly fail to give an oversight on the bigger picture, but to get this it would require quite some amount of expository infodumping, something that was criticized as overdone in the prequels and since Disney seems to try and do generally always to opposite to everything the prequels did, it was likely omitted.
To better understand the background between one needs not only the Visual Dictionary of TFA, but also the novel "Bloodline" and the Aftermath-trilogy of novels as those delve into how the New Republic functions and what its state is up to six years before TFA starts.
Core facts are as such:
1. The New Republic, while the resident dominant galactic government and sole "superpower" by the sequels, is smaller in territory than both the Galactic Empire of the OT and the Old Republic of the prequels, but due to its (mostly) fair and egalitarian policies (former slaves could sue their former masters for compensation in the NR court for example) they have very friendly relations to many smaller neutral powers.
2. Wanting to rule out oppression and another switch to dictatorship, the NR has a strict disarmament policy and while its fleet outnumbers the First Order and is the largest present in the galaxy, they have few modern Capital ships (some fleets still using material from the Rebel Alliance) and in total numbers the New Republic military is smaller than what the Old Republic had in the Clone Wars. Now with Starkiller blasting the main fleet and High Command apart, the Republic fleet no longer has a numerical advantage, no central leadership and the First Order has higher quality stuff.
3. Trying to prevent the mistakes and exploitation present in the Old Republic, the capital isn't seated on Coruscant anymore but rotates via vote every few years between member worlds.
4. By the time of the sequel trilogy, the Senate is already as useless as it was in the Old Republic due to mismanaging Chancellors and two main parties/blocs which bicker with each other instead of actually ruling the galaxy.
These parties are on one hand the Centrists, who favor a more centralized government and a strong military (extremists in this group essentially worship the Empire and want something similar back, but without lunatics like Palps and Vader in charge)
and on the other hand the Populists (of which Leia was a member until she resigned from the Senate) who favor all executive power lying with the individual member worlds and the military being organized mostly in peacekeeping local forces (extremists of
this group essentially want the pre-Clone Wars Republic from The Phantom Menace back).

As for the Distress signal, Leia states something about "allies in the outer rim", which could include various neutral parties and possibly some remnant local Republic fleets from outer sectors, but them not answering can have a multitude of reasons.
Luke says to Kylo shortly before the end that "The war has just begun" which implies the First Order hasn't yet seized a majority of the galaxy, so there is still time to rebuild and use the still intact infrastructure of the rest of the galaxy to face the First Order on something more solid than just a small bunch of people crammed into the Falcon.
If I had to think up a parallel I'd say it's much like Nazi Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Initially they made huge gains and the Soviets had terrible losses, but eventually they bounced back and in the end outnumbered the Nazis.
While powerful, the First Order does not have the huge numbers the Empire had and has in terms of loyalty probably the majority of the galaxy against them. Alderaan did have exactly the opposite effect to what the Empire hoped and Starkiller is even worse, so in time a similar effect may occur.
Spoken in military terms, what is now needed is to slow the Juggernaut of the First Order down and increase morale, things that are both portrayed in the finale of TLJ. Kylo being rather unhinged and probably not a popular leader who has the true loyalty of the upper command of the FO (Hux doesn't seem too fond of him) may also cause internal strife within their ranks, buying further time.

Spoiler Show

1) This isn't in the film and therefore can't be used in defense of the film. Its internal logic fails or stands on its own merits.
2) This doesn't go to answering anything, anyway. The Republic is in total disarray? Why? Because of SKB? The planets it destroyed were that critical to the functioning of the government? Where is that information contained? In the Visual Dictionary? Oh boy. Again, it's not my job to go out of my way to make sense of the film by reading books and doing headstands. I will happily indulge extra-cinematic material which increases my understanding of elements of the film which are already present and spoken for, but one can't make the case that the films benefits from failing to incorporate important context which is nevertheless present elsewhere in the canon.

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Point conceded, for someone just watching the movies themselves it is close to impossible to connect the dots.

Yes, as explained above, Starkiller destroyed an entire star system and as Hux states in his speech, this system holds the Senate, thus is the capital of the New Republic.
That these planets also include the High Command of the Republic military and the fleet stationed there being destroyed negating the numerical advantage the Republic once had (it is stated that several hundred ships are destroyed in the disaster) is only in the VD, yes, so again context.
I'm also not sure why such context isn't included, but maybe the directors think that detracts from the drama and the focus on the characters.

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It's a misunderstanding if there was clarity within the cinematic universe and myself and others were simply losing track of it due to our own poor recall (speaking for myself, I can be terrible at retaining narrative so I stay wary of that) or even some jumbled work on the part of the films: that's a far cry from, "The FO exists but we're not going to tell the story of how or why, so live with it, and when something doesn't make sense maybe we'll write a book about it."

If an individual viewer doesn't care or isn't interested in the origins and means of the FO, or the state of the galactic government and how that politicizes our protagonists, that's OK. Everyone gets their kicks somewhere. But if we're going to accept the stated narrative as a function of moving the story and radicalizing our characters through conflict, that goes to purpose. What are they fighting for? How do they win? What does it mean to lose and why does it matter so much that they don't? These are the central questions which have gone unanswered in this arbitrary universe. Instead, TLJ is all thematic smoke and mirrors. Rey matters because she's nobody! Anybody can be nobody, so nobody can be a Jedi! And there's a silent cut near the end.

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I guess that what these so-called "multi-media" projects are, as one gets the same problems with Kingdom Hearts or the .hack franchise, much stuff is only addressed in different media in order to make more money.
That the First Order more or less already holds at least half (or one quarter, depending on interpretation) of the galaxy due to having its powerbase in a region of the galaxy that was beforehand only known as unexplored was indeed never mentioned in TFA or TLJ, was it?
Then there's also the issue with Emperor Palpatine spearheading the exploration and mapping of that region (Grand Admiral Thrawn from Star Wars Rebels actually comes from that region), including sending his personal Super Star Destroyer, the Eclipse (which is the sister ship of Vader's Executor shown in ESB and ROTJ) there to await further orders and the so-called "Contingency"-plan which is a post-mortem order of Palpatine which reads that in the event of his own death, the Empire is to be declared unworthy and to be destroyed while his most loyal followers are to retreat to the unknown regions and build a new, better Empire (which is what we know as the First Order). Those things come all from the Aftermath-novels and the video-game Battleront II.

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Right on. I won't give Lucas more credit than he's due because he has undeniable deficits as a filmmaker, but following through on a larger conceptualization of his universe always seemed to be a priority for him and I like that. Vision, properly measured and materialized, is what SW thrives on: TFA had none, while TLJ overdoses.

On Kylo: I read his arc more as a depiction of his desperation to be someone significant. I don't think he killed Snoke in the hopes of being "redeemed"; I think he viewed it as lighting a flame to past and present, and mistook Rey for a more interesting sort of character who might secretly harbor similarly subversive inclinations. Her rejection refutes his own headcanon where she comprehends his unstoppable might and gets on board, so now he'll throw a galactic hissy fit like in TFA and kill a bunch of people and Rey will have to be a strong woman and clean up his mess and rescue him from himself. 'Cause that's what female leads do now!

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Maybe it is as Mark Hamill said in a recent interview, for Disney it isn't important if the movie's quality is good or if the lore is coherent and understandable, but how much money it brings.

An interesting interpretation, this would paint Kylo more like a deranged anarchist rather than a religious zealot with fucked up views. In this case, the chances of him clashing with other high First Order commanders and getting trouble actually leading it are even higher.
Rey has proven to be very resourceful, like i.e. snatching the old Jedi books without Luke even noticing (and then Yoda helping her cover it up by trolling Luke and burning the tree himself) and her being "Nobody" I feel is a strong message towards that one doesn't need to be from a "great" heritage/Dynasty to become something special and important.
Her main objective being now cleaning up Kylo's present and future messes sounds so incredibly cliché, but I agree that the premise for such a story may be laid out.

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Antilles' actor declined to be in the new saga (rather harshly IIRC), but del Toro's part could have gone to Billy Dee Williams without a hitch. smh
The Ackbar send-off felt unearned. An off-the-cuff moment delivered by a one-note plot device of a character? Please. Somebody get this purple haired ComiCon attendee off my bridge.

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The more you know, lol. Perhaps he made the right decision.
Yea, except the betrayal part as that would have been a total ESB rehash and while a bit shifty, Lando isn't an ass. Speaking of it, the whole movie feels a little like a study/presentation of failure/loss and how to move on/come back from that.

Having Ackbar make the Hyperspace-Kamikaze run is actually a pretty neat idea. It would have given him a powerful send-off and preserved that purple-haired Admiral for some more exploration later.

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Haha, I have no familiarity with this character, but a perpetually underwhelmed and unhelpfully sarcastic Dame Dench might just give the pile of smoldering rubble that is Episode IX a bit of a kick.

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That's not something to be concerned about as she's doesn't have many scenes in the films themselves and while she plays a major role, it's a background one.
You can see her in one scene during Return of the Jedi and several times in Rogue One, her scenes in Revenge of the Sith where she has several conferences with Bail Organa and Padmé were cut, but still count as canon.
Beside that she has some scenes in The Clone Wars and Rebels and is said to be Leia's political mentor.

She's the woman in white with the short auburn hair, stated to be Emperor Palpatine's arch-enemy in the political sphere.

In the new canon, she has apparently the questionable honor to be the only Chancellor of the New Republic who was remotely competent.

Leia Organa: "After Palpatine, nobody wanted to hand over that much power again, so we don't have an executive, only a chancellor with no real authority.
Mon Mothma got things done through sheer charisma, but almost every chancellor since her has been..."
Han Solo: "Useless."

 

[Absent]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Spoiler Show

1) This isn't in the film and therefore can't be used in defense of the film. Its internal logic fails or stands on its own merits.

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It actually is, early on in the film. Rey basically quotes the visual dictionary, claiming that the FO will have control over key sectors in a matter of weeks. That's one of her arguments to get Luke to join.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

i'm just saying. my boi Finn is for Poe or Rey

Every word you said in that sentence was right.

 

[Lonbilly]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

I've had a lot of thoughts on the movie since I saw it, and then when I saw it again the next day, but I will say that honestly, that second viewing REALLY helped improve my rating and opinion of the movie. I like the fact that it's going for a everybody is failing and everything that could go wrong can and that what we think we know isn't true but I'm not quite sure if it executed it as well as it wanted to.

I still think the whole Canto Bight subplot is dumb. I adore Finn and I like Rose, but this should have either been a separate movie OR been handled better OR cut. Tbh, I think if this was cut, the needless Leia flying through space (there were so many other ways to show she had the Force officially other than this explosion sitch/putting her out of commission), and the... odd mutiny that Poe does that goes nowhere, the film could have had time to explore more of the Snoke/Ben/Luke sitch which really should have been shown.

I could forgive killing Snoke if we at least knew his story, but overall, he's a waste and it makes no sense. But hey, that Kylo and Rey team up was fandiddlyingTASTIC and while I don't ship them in the slightest, seeing them team up was so diddlying gratifying.

But Luke's death was dumb tbh, while it makes sense. I just wish they would have adjusted the ending, had Carrie be the one to destroy the ships instead of whatsherface, and had Luke's trick against Kylo work but still have him live and finally pass on in the next one. But oh well.

I still have a lot MORE thoughts but those are just my main ones. Oh, wait, and Phasma's fight was pathetic. I read the Phasma novel and diddlying LOVED it and was so excited to see Finn kick her ass, but that fight was way too short and now she's possibly (probably) dead again with no payoff.

Also, what Launchpad said.

 

[Absent]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

i'm just saying. my boi Finn is for Poe or Rey

 

[alexis.anagram]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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So I saw the movie (last saturday actually) and I liked it, though like Oracle I understand why others might not. The casino subplot could have been cut, that's true, but then again without (the failing of) that plot Poe would have remained the same at the end as he was at the beginning: a brash hothead that can't look at the bigger picture. The chain of command exists for a reason, and while sometimes it might be necessary to do so, just breaking it because you don't like the person in charge (who, in fairness, should have been a bit more forward with her exact plan) is no good at all.
On Snoke and Rey's parents: good job. And I mean that. Sure, I was curious too, but I really didn't need a Palpatine 2.0 (because that's all Snoke was, and I'm pretty sure TFA had some complaints concerning similarities to the OT). In the grand scheme of things he didn't matter: he was just there to provide a reason (or at least 1 of them) for Kylo's turn, and that's always been the case. Just like I never needed to know where Palpatine came from either, he was just there to facilitate Vader's turn.
Now Kylo could have been lying about Rey's parents but I hope he's not. We are talking about a series that takes place across several decades and star systems. Not everyone needs to be related to someone we already know. IMO they could do some better work with the characterization, but at least this allows people to look at Rey as herself, rather than an extension of some family.
I hate that some people (not talking necessarily about people here, so don't take this personal) keep theorizing and get ideas in their head of how the next movie "should be" and then get pissed off because it didn't happen to come true, it's something I've seen happen in several places over the last week There's nothing wrong with theorizing, but the film makers are absolutely not required to follow your line of thought.

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Sorry, but I have to nitpick here. During Hux's Nazi speech in TFA he said quite clearly what they were going to do. In his words: "This fierce machine which you have built, upon which we stand will bring an end to the Senate, to their cherished fleet! ALL REMAINING SYSTEMS WILL BOW TO THE FIRST ORDER!!! AND WILL REMEMBER THIS AS THE LAST DAY OF THE REPUBLIC!!!"
Then they fire and lo and behold: several planets get blown up. I'm sure he didn't mean to make that speech to his men and then decide to fire on some random planets. From context it was pretty clear what they did there. Now, I'll admit that maybe they could have done a better job portraying the Republic being in disarray, but then again when your government planet and fleet are literally blown up in one fell swoop what is there to show? Should we have gotten some shots of random citizens on assorted other planets, looking up at the sky with an angry look in their eyes and waving their fists saying: "Oh if only the First Order hadn't already blown up our fleets, someone could do something about them"?
They said they were going to destroy the government and their fleet, and they did. I'm pretty sure that the entirety of their government was located on 1 or more of those specific planets that got reckt, because I'm pretty sure trying to run a galaxy from across several different systems would be a logistical and impossible nightmare.

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Not nitpicky at all! You and Absent informed me of a couple of quotes I hadn't picked up on that do give something like context to what's happening. So credit where credit is due.

However, a couple of lines of dialogue (one bit of villainous hyperbole and the other delivered by a walking mannequin) don't quite make up for a failure to portray in relatable terms the central dynamic fueling both sides of the saga's overarching conflict-- exposition is a poor substitute for confirmation. It's not just that the scale and specifics of the war are significant in the ways they set up the plot, rather they go to the heart of how the audience learns to comprehend the behaviors of the protagonists and thus gain empathy for them and begin to take their own sides in the conflict. These lines don't answer fundamental questions like: what is the Republic? What are its moral prerogatives? How do we reconcile its "righteousness" against the encroaching "evil" of the First Order if we have no basis for comparison? My expectation is that we are intended to recognize that the agents of these different factions are indicative of their values systems: Kylo for anarchic absolutism, Rey for light-side, detached diplomacy. But wait: Rey is driven to join the Resistance through happenstance and a series of events which largely don't effect her. Jakku is a planet on the outskirts of the system, generally removed from the conflict. So why does she believe in the Resistance? What does she see in the Resistance that motivates her to fight on its behalf? Han Solo is a washed up smuggler (or something) who ditched the struggle to go look for his favorite car. Leia is stoically sidelined. Luke has been missing for years nursing a self-inflicted psychological wound with unimpeded narcissism while the galaxy has fallen into turmoil. There's no sense that this New Republic is a thing worth fighting for. Meanwhile, Kylo is subservient to a holographic, furless sloth who growls dark platitudes about power and the expendability of human life, but we have no idea why Kylo thinks this guy is hot stuff. We're told Kylo has "too much of his grandfather in him"-- whom he also idolizes, inexplicably. He's evil because he's...evil? C'mon.

Admittedly, TLJ helps a bit with Kylo. Yet whittling this galactic competition down in order to provide these two characters with a little poetry is myopic: it doesn't serve their purpose to rob the audience of the wider vision of things, because in order for their primary roles to play against one another we need the backdrop. After TLJ, the question I think myself and many others are asking basically boils down to: why should we care? A bunch of people died, and? We don't know who they were: we don't know who any of these characters are in the ways that matter. In the ST, abrupt, unearned statements of good and evil give way to a kind of silent heroism, unrecognizable but for the rote familiarity of the plot's moving parts, and the trials and self-sacrifice which follow are totally muted.

That silent cut is actually pretty telling.

[Much good information.]

I don't mean to be rude by cutting your post short again, I did read all of it. All I really gotta say is, wow. All that stuff sounds like prime material for a series of SW movies! I can't wait to see those ideas implemented when the first ST film comes out in...oh...wait...

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Maybe it is as Mark Hamill said in a recent interview, for Disney it isn't important if the movie's quality is good or if the lore is coherent and understandable, but how much money it brings.

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Uhhhh, I just realized there were cameras filming this. Maybe I shouldn't have gotten that specific!

:'D :'D :'D
Never change Luke.

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An interesting interpretation, this would paint Kylo more like a deranged anarchist rather than a religious zealot with diddlyed up views. In this case, the chances of him clashing with other high First Order commanders and getting trouble actually leading it are even higher.
Rey has proven to be very resourceful, like i.e. snatching the old Jedi books without Luke even noticing (and then Yoda helping her cover it up by trolling Luke and burning the tree himself) and her being "Nobody" I feel is a strong message towards that one doesn't need to be from a "great" heritage/Dynasty to become something special and important.
Her main objective being now cleaning up Kylo's present and future messes sounds so incredibly cliché, but I agree that the premise for such a story may be laid out.

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Well, he's more like a fulfillment of Anakin's spiritual journey to the dark side. Anakin wanted to overthrow Palpatine as well, and invites Padme to join him in this almost immediately after becoming his apprentice. There's a slight inversion here: Anakin's primary motivator is a desire and need for security-- from the unknown, from loss and from death. The dark side holds promise for him because it is the unknown, and if he can master it he can master death and prevent the loss of those he loves. The moral quandary for Anakin is one of means: by embracing the light-side and the natural order of life, he could choose to recognize that at the end all beings become one with the Force again and thus are never truly lost; but through the dark side, he can affect material control over the mortal plane and prevent or delay the flow of time. Kylo is...not really as complex; he makes moves to imitate Anakin's moral ambition but, like many, mistakes it for a drive towards authoritarian grandeur and the concentration of individual potentiality. The paradox of Anakin is that he was, even in the midst of all his vanity, ultimately sefless: he turned in order to save Padme and worked towards what he honestly felt was in the best interests of the galaxy-- a repressive model of peace through forced subjugation-- even if it meant giving of his very soul and compromising every value he held dear. That was the bit of light that Luke saw in him: Anakin's "dark side" was not born of hate but of, in Yoda's own words, fear. Exploitable, dangerous, but ultimately human-- redeemable. Kylo's dark side, OTOH, is heavily implied to be born of hate. Inexplicable, uncontrollable, alien. Whereas Anakin saw the dichotomy in the struggle, and was thus capable of acknowledging others as valuable, Kylo is a unifier: he'll burn down the whole diddlying thing if he has to in order to get his way.

It's worth acknowledging that the dialogue between Kylo and Rey in the throne room strongly mirrors that of Anakin and Padme on Mustafar, down to the fire symbolism. But whereas Anakin appealed to Padme's goodness-- her ability to be a benevolent ruler with him at her side-- Kylo offers one thing: total destruction. In his vision, he and Rey must kill everything and everyone else and tear down history itself as an assertion of dominance. Anakin wanted his enemies to surrender; Kylo wants to make them bow. It's that fundamental disdain for that which is regarded as good which enables him to usurp Snoke and bring full circle the "legacy" of Darth Vader.

And yeah, Rey Cliche basically gets to play his shadow and chase after all that chaos and repair it with her vulnerable purity for a whole movie now. Our protagonist everybody.

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Having Ackbar make the Hyperspace-Kamikaze run is actually a pretty neat idea. It would have given him a powerful send-off and preserved that purple-haired Admiral for some more exploration later.

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I feel very strongly Admiral Holdo could have been left out of this movie in a million different ways and any number of other characters could have taken her place as kamikaze pilot. And nothing would have changed. There's nothing there to explore in her: she shows up to stifle other characters, extend the run time, and provide Rian with an excuse for some flashy cool "real film" stuff. She's an algebra equation, like much of the movie: reverse engineered plotting.

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It actually is, early on in the film. Rey basically quotes the visual dictionary, claiming that the FO will have control over key sectors in a matter of weeks. That's one of her arguments to get Luke to join.

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I spoke to this earlier, but I just want to acknowledge and appreciate that you clarified this. I have a really hard time paying attention to Daisy so the more people can tell me about her character the better it is for me.

 

[Recon]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

I finally saw the movie and thought it was decent. I'm not the type that condemns a movie for a few bad scenes *cough* metacritic *cough* but it wasn't all too superb. What I liked most about the film was the land/space action battles, flying through the crystal (ruby?) cavern, all the comical moments, and Snoke/Rey/Kylo showdown.

Questionable scenes:

1) Carrie floating back to the ship in space. To me, it seemed the direction was to have Carrie float back into this blown up space ship with a little help from the Force. It was supposed to be this majestic scene like "There's still hope she can live!" but I just found it very corny. It just defied all laws of physics and gravity (albeit Star Wars) to the point where I didn't think this was a good example of what the Force can do.

2) As many mentioned, the casino scene was a waste of time. Don't get me wrong, Del Toro (who is in the scene) made it magical for me, but other than his role of being a code breaker, it was just cheesy. Rose's frustrations about the rich funding the First Order was interesting, but the scene was wayyyy too focused on destroying the town than trying to find the code breaker in minimal time. To top t all off, the plan failed after all of this was shown. It was a bit of an unnecessary time sink.

Complaints

1) I wish Snoke was still alive. He barely had any screen time, his death was sort of lame, and I still don't know who he really was. I thought he was a good villain, but to me, I hardly knew him. I wanted to know more about his intentions and the guy seemed quite the tactical thinker. I just wish I could learn more about him.

2) Poe is overzealous leader. Poe, we get it. We get you want to save people, do good, beat the First Order, but the man has NO chill. I get that he's not the type that just sits around, but taking matters into his own hands was a result in failure, and worse; he endangered more people. I get this is a lesson the movie was trying to pass on to its viewers, but god damn, it did Poe no good. He did redeem himself near the end however.

3) I don't mind all the animal introductions/scenes, but they'll never be memorable. Arctic fennec fox was cool tho.

 

[Phantom]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

I saw the film few weeks ago and though it was alright. I liked most of the stuff.

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The casino stuff felt irrelevant to the plot, but I personally didn't mind it.

Only things I didn't like were Leia floating back to the ship (it was supposed to be dramatic, but I just found it silly) and the fact that Snoke got killed off: I felt he had a lot of potential to be a great villain and it's a shame we didn't learn more about him. Oh, and Phasma is another character that felt wasted.

 

[Absent]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

So Solo comes out in 5 months and we still don’t have a teaser. I got a bad feeling about this.

 

[Hakan Xatos]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

So Solo comes out in 5 months and we still don’t have a teaser. I got a bad feeling about this.

I wouldn't worry too much. My money is on a Super Bowl commercial.

 

[Deleted member 36435]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

rewrite the finn and rose scenes to be less campy bullshit and you have yourself a top 3 star wars film

 

[Launchpad]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

rewrite the finn and rose scenes to be less campy bullshit and you have yourself a top 3 star wars film

yee the two of them destroying the casino felt like some Episode 2 shit

 

[Grizzly]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

So Solo comes out in 5 months and we still don’t have a teaser. I got a bad feeling about this.

I'm with you on this one, all we have is a logo. Rumor I've heard is that Disney expects it to bomb.

I wouldn't worry too much. My money is

on a Super Bowl commercial.

That's when I expect to get it, but still not having one at this point is somewhat of a concern. It's like recasting a character the original actor wanted dead permanently and having to fire a director wasn't a good idea.

 

[Hakan Xatos]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

That's when I expect to get it, but still not having one at this point is somewhat of a concern. It's like recasting a character the original actor wanted dead permanently and having to fire a director wasn't a good idea.

Yeah, I mean I really enjoyed Rogue One. Honestly liked it more than the new numbered titles, but a Han Solo back story? It's too easy to screw this up especially if they send the wrong messages with his character or make it a goofball buddy comedy. I'm excited about Donald Glover being Lando and that's about it.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

I don't mean to be rude by cutting your post short again, I did read all of it. All I really gotta say is, wow. All that stuff sounds like prime material for a series of SW movies! I can't wait to see those ideas implemented when the first ST film comes out in...oh...wait...

Spoiler Show

:'D :'D :'D
Never change Luke.

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Well, he's more like a fulfillment of Anakin's spiritual journey to the dark side. Anakin wanted to overthrow Palpatine as well, and invites Padme to join him in this almost immediately after becoming his apprentice. There's a slight inversion here: Anakin's primary motivator is a desire and need for security-- from the unknown, from loss and from death. The dark side holds promise for him because it is the unknown, and if he can master it he can master death and prevent the loss of those he loves. The moral quandary for Anakin is one of means: by embracing the light-side and the natural order of life, he could choose to recognize that at the end all beings become one with the Force again and thus are never truly lost; but through the dark side, he can affect material control over the mortal plane and prevent or delay the flow of time. Kylo is...not really as complex; he makes moves to imitate Anakin's moral ambition but, like many, mistakes it for a drive towards authoritarian grandeur and the concentration of individual potentiality. The paradox of Anakin is that he was, even in the midst of all his vanity, ultimately sefless: he turned in order to save Padme and worked towards what he honestly felt was in the best interests of the galaxy-- a repressive model of peace through forced subjugation-- even if it meant giving of his very soul and compromising every value he held dear. That was the bit of light that Luke saw in him: Anakin's "dark side" was not born of hate but of, in Yoda's own words, fear. Exploitable, dangerous, but ultimately human-- redeemable. Kylo's dark side, OTOH, is heavily implied to be born of hate. Inexplicable, uncontrollable, alien. Whereas Anakin saw the dichotomy in the struggle, and was thus capable of acknowledging others as valuable, Kylo is a unifier: he'll burn down the whole diddlying thing if he has to in order to get his way.

It's worth acknowledging that the dialogue between Kylo and Rey in the throne room strongly mirrors that of Anakin and Padme on Mustafar, down to the fire symbolism. But whereas Anakin appealed to Padme's goodness-- her ability to be a benevolent ruler with him at her side-- Kylo offers one thing: total destruction. In his vision, he and Rey must kill everything and everyone else and tear down history itself as an assertion of dominance. Anakin wanted his enemies to surrender; Kylo wants to make them bow. It's that fundamental disdain for that which is regarded as good which enables him to usurp Snoke and bring full circle the "legacy" of Darth Vader.

And yeah, Rey Cliche basically gets to play his shadow and chase after all that chaos and repair it with her vulnerable purity for a whole movie now. Our protagonist everybody.

Spoiler Show

I feel very strongly Admiral Holdo could have been left out of this movie in a million different ways and any number of other characters could have taken her place as kamikaze pilot. And nothing would have changed. There's nothing there to explore in her: she shows up to stifle other characters, extend the run time, and provide Rian with an excuse for some flashy cool "real film" stuff. She's an algebra equation, like much of the movie: reverse engineered plotting.

Nah, it's ok since I tend to go into essay-mode more often than not. ;P
Except they don't show all that in the movies, courtesy of the type of medium possibly can't show all this in detail during the movie's runtime, because while it is all interesting and certainly wonderful worldbuilding which gives depth, it would result in again lots of talking and expository camera shots, something the prequels were widely reviled and criticized for (remember the "the prequels are all about boring politics, too much talking, bad CGI and whiny Anakin"-spiel from the early 2000's?).
This is something Disney wants to avoid at all costs and as a side "bonus" (for them) if you put all this stuff in extra side material you can make more money!

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Mark Hamill is gold, yup.
As was Carrie Fisher. ^__^

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Also an interesting take on Kylo, it seems that Snoke's assessment of him being just an unstable child isn't that wrong.
Part of me also thinks that he goes by the whole "kill the past" and everything connected to it because he feels burdened and constricted/trapped by the boundaries and situations the past left the present.
The flashback to Luke's one short fatal misjudgement however also point to a heavy dose of fear being involved on Ben's/Kylo's part. If I recall correctly Luke even states that he had the eyes of a frightened child, not of a murderous dark side monster.

Now going off on that to massacre the entire Jedi school and join a bunch of fanatic fascist scumbags who are (ideology wise) even worse than the Empire they aim to succeed is quite a leap though and unlike the motivations you mention about Anakin, we don't (yet) know what Kylo's underlying motives where to go that far.
Just to "punish" Luke for his apparent betrayal?
To "punish" Leia for seemingly abandoning him he decides to help destroying the Republic which she worked so hard to help create?

One of the things I realized when watching the Yoda scene again is that with the Sequel-trilogy Disney/the Lucasfilm Story Group apparently goes with the "try it three times to get it right"-plot device here as in
1. the cast of the prequel trilogy, including the Jedi, try to do good and make the galaxy a better place, but due to own mistakes and hubris fall short of the mark and tragically unintentionally make things worse.
2. the cast of the original trilogy clears up the mess made by the prequel cast and gets rid of the bastard who exploited them and profited from their mistakes (Palpatine), acknowledging the mistakes made back then but going about undoing them in the wrong way.
3. the cast of the sequel trilogy will have to use the groundwork laid by the two previous generations to finally get something helpful done that lasts a little longer.

It also has some interesting parallels to the Sengoku-period of japanese history and the "three great unifiers", Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu who each laid a part of the groundwork for the unification of Japan, with Nobunaga (representing the prequels in SW) seeing a need for change, but falling short of the mark and initially making things worse, Hideyoshi (representing the originals) accomplishing the task but due to lack of foresight and unlucky circumstances having it last only for a single generation and Ieyasu (representing the sequels) finally getting the success to last.

Now however Kylo wants to smash the groundwork that was laid out instead of learning from it and improving. It begs the question of what Kylo actually wants.
Bringing "Law and Order" (with a military junta terrorits organisation? wut?) is most likely only a front/propaganda, not to mention that Kylo is only "Supreme Leader" as long as he can hold on to the position by force. He has no true allies within the First Order's structure except maybe the other (six?) Knights of Ren and General Hux already despises him so he will jump at any opportunity to get rid of Kylo.
It's also ironic (and hypocritical) that Kylo speaks about "killing the past", including the Jedi, the Sith and the Republic (or what it represents), but exempting the Empire/First Order from the equation despite it and what it represents also being a thing of the past.

No matter what some deluded Empire-fanboys in the fandom may spew out the Empire wasn't an improvement over the Old Republic, both have severe flaws in different areas and are incapable of providing a safe galaxy for a longer period of time, although in this area the Old Republic even beats the Empire by a huge margin as despite all its admittedly existing flaws and faults, the Old Republic managed to survive for more than 1000 years even in the new canon (with the rampant corruption and inefficiency only appearing in its last decades) while the puny Empire lasted merely 23 years.
The New Republic seems to more or less repeat the errors of the Old Republic because they focus too much on not repeating the errors of the Empire when both should be taken into account.
Even in the old Expanded Universe (now Legends-brand) where the NR was much more competent than the version of the new Disney canon, it took only one "bad" chancellor taking office coinciding with an extra-galactic invasion (the Yuuzhan Vong) to bring it close to collapse there as well which happens interestingly also roughly 30 years after RotJ.

If anything it saddens me because it is sort of a waste of the character/possible role of Rey as a whole. She could be the progenitor/founder of a New Jedi Order that, while honoring the good the old one undoubtly did as well, learns from their mistakes and becomes a more flexible and healthy organisation of galactic protectors instead of just chasing after a single ax-crazy guy who by the end of "The last Jedi" has chosen evil more than twice of his own volition.

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Design- and personality wise I actually found Holdo to be rather interesting and with potential to be build into a more sound character over time, but for that she would have needed to survive.
The voice actor of Admiral Ackbar recently died and he's one of the old guard so having him doing it would have made dozens more sense instead of just killing him off like an extra in the earlier bridge attack scene.
Heck, Holdo could have even become the new civilian leader of the Resistance/Remnants of the Republic after the passing of Carrie Fisher since Leia is no more available and Poe is certainly mainly a military-only guy.

-------

On a general side note though,

I find all this bitching and disappointment over the apparent "waste" of Snoke totally hilarious.
Just because the fandom overhyped (something that reminds me of KH honestly) and people went wild with a bunch of interesting but ultimately unfounded theories doesn't mean that the movies have to actually [I]answer[/I] anything in regards to it.

As a friendly reminder:
Before the Prequels existed Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious was literally not that much different from Snoke.
They both have only a single hologram scene in their first appearance (actually Snoke got more in TFA than Palpy got in ESB) and get axed in their first physical appearance in the following film.

 

[Absent]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

I recommend watching this. it goes over great detail of the easter eggs and some of the behind the scenes of TLJ. Plus there's Pablo Hidalgo.

BTW this is by Lucasfilm.

[video=youtube;p09c0MXDxto]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p09c0MXDxto[/video]

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

New Trailer for the Finale of Rebels dropped:
[video=youtube;-jWIDwq44ZI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jWIDwq44ZI[/video]

And holy diddlyin' shit, it's Sheev "The Senate" Palpatine personally making an appearance alongside the other old Clone Troopers and references to the Mortis-crew from "The Clone Wars".

And even better, the Emperor is apparently voiced by Ian McDiarmid himself, who also portrayed Palpatine in the movies!

 

[Hakan Xatos]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

As a random thought did anyone else kind of compare

Spoiler Show

Hamill as Eraqus about to nonsensically kill his young pupil Ventus to Hamill as Luke about to nonsensically kill his young pupil Ben? Difference is that Eraqus in the end actually went through with it before being stopped. However, Luke was going to do it in Ben's sleep which may be even worse. In the end though it makes both of Hamill's characters seem cowardly towards darkness.

 

[Absent]

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Please make Ahsoka the daughter. Please make Ahsoka the daughter. Please make Ahsoka the daughter.

Please make Ahsoka the daughter. Please make Ahsoka the daughter. Please make Ahsoka the daughter.



Calling it! Ol' Palpy is messing with Ezra through old Sith Sorcery like he did with Yoda in S6 of Clone Wars. The blue fire is very reminiscent of the what he did with Dooku, which gives Feloni an excuse to use Palpy without them meeting physically.