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Terra's Heartless?



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Seighart

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You're the one who was so concrete about the separation of the three primary components in the first place:

So really, what you're saying now is basically what I've been arguing the whole time. The main difference is that you're depending on Terra transferring not only his mind, but his soul, to the LS. We have not heard anything of the LS containing a soul, nor of Xehanort transferring his soul into Terra alongside his heart. We have no good reason to suspect he would have even wanted to carry his soul over, since the soul is only an energy source for the body, as far as we know.

While I can now acknowledge the possibility of your theory, I still can't give it much credence, because it provides little reason to doubt the default hypothesis.

It's called speculation, and you're being very disrespectful regarding the way he thinks and presents his ideas. He's given sound facts(Xehanort Report) that backs up his theory. No the "mind" concept hasn't been introduced, but it doesn't stop speculation. I've heard a lot more off the wall theories.
 

billyzanesucks

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then riddle me this: where was this nobody all this time
I haven't even acknowledge that he did create a Nobody, although Nomura has admitted to the possibility that MX created something at that time. The current explanation we have for the creation of a Nobody is that it occurs when a person loses their heart to darkness. Xehanort did not become a Heartless at that time.
and why does MX look not a day older in kh3d than he did in bbs?
At the end of 3D, we see Ven in the Chamber of Waking. Ven's body clearly didn't grow much older over the past eleven years.
It's called speculation, and you're being very disrespectful regarding the way he thinks and presents his ideas. He's given sound facts(Xehanort Report) that backs up his theory. No the "mind" concept hasn't been introduced, but it doesn't stop speculation. I've heard a lot more off the wall theories.
If by "Xehanort Report" you mean the Secret Ansem Report he quoted on the heart, body and soul, he's contradicting that now. Originally, he used it to show that the heart, body and soul are completely individual and the only components of a person. After I had pretty much debunked that concept, he suddenly said that I was the one who needed to be more flexible about it.

Anyway, I was pretty respectful about it. I acknowledged the possibility of his theory, but I pointed out that the default hypothesis - that Xehanort only transferred his heart to Terra and Terra only transferred his mind to the LS - would be more likely. A good theory should give good reason to doubt the default hypothesis and attempt to make itself fit in well with what we already know. That's the basis of Occam's Razor.
 

Korai

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I haven't even acknowledge that he did create a Nobody, although Nomura has admitted to the possibility that MX created something at that time. The current explanation we have for the creation of a Nobody is that it occurs when a person loses their heart to darkness. Xehanort did not become a Heartless at that time.

At the end of 3D, we see Ven in the Chamber of Waking. Ven's body clearly didn't grow much older over the past eleven years.
If by "Xehanort Report" you mean the Secret Ansem Report he quoted on the heart, body and soul, he's contradicting that now. Originally, he used it to show that the heart, body and soul are completely individual and the only components of a person. After I had pretty much debunked that concept, he suddenly said that I was the one who needed to be more flexible about it.

Anyway, I was pretty respectful about it. I acknowledged the possibility of his theory, but I pointed out that the default hypothesis - that Xehanort only transferred his heart to Terra and Terra only transferred his mind to the LS - would be more likely. A good theory should give good reason to doubt the default hypothesis and attempt to make itself fit in well with what we already know. That's the basis of Occam's Razor.
I was pretty respectful about it.
that was my favorite part.

What, do you want me to seriously consider a theory that doesn't match up with the in-universe logic? If a theory is not plausible, it is a myth.


EDIT: Really? REALLY!?
doesn't get more respectful than that, does it?
You're the one who was so concrete about the separation of the three primary components in the first place
I decided to take into account your thoughts when you started talking about sub-components. what is it called when someone does that again? oh yeah:
If part of your theory is based on a concept that isn't almost universally accepted, that you haven't explained well enough for others to accept it, then you should continue arguing, reconstruct your theory, or move on.
i reconstructed my theory
While I can now acknowledge the possibility of your theory, I still can't give it much credence,
you don't have to give it any credence, i could honestly care less what you think about it, but you don't have to call it a myth either. I spent a long time thinking this theory up, and if you won't give it any credence, it would be nice if you at least gave it some respect.
it provides little reason to doubt the default hypothesis
there is no "default hypothesis." that moment on top of the plateau was very quick and not very well explained in the game. Everyone can have their own idea of what happened, wether you can understand it or not. thank you
 
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billyzanesucks

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doesn't get more respectful than that, does it?
I was stating the truth. At the time, you only attempted to ignore everything I had pointed out wrong with your theory. I used as much respect as your lack of acknowledgement demanded.
I decided to take into account your thoughts when you started talking about sub-components. what is it called when someone does that again? oh yeah:

i reconstructed my theory
Well as long as we're having a quote war...
-___- sparks fly lol
i do have a strong foundation, it just requires you to look at the whole soul/body/heart thing a bit more flexibly than you are
You pretty much said that your original theory made sense, while at the same time moving towards your "reconstructed" theory:
i didnt say that the foundation is flexible. i said you have to think of the different components of a person as being more flexible and not set in stone, as in, maybe the mind isnt attatched to any part, but can still travel from host to host either on its own or with another part. maybe the mind can split into two like a cell undergoing mitosis and go to two different places. maybe the memories in the heart can be copied and etched into the soul or just plain transferred etc.
You never actually acknowledged the flaws in your original theory or acted like what you said contradicted the original at all. Next time you reconstruct your theory, please express that that's what you're doing in the first place.
you don't have to give it any credence, i could honestly care less what you think about it, but you don't have to call it a myth either. I spent a long time thinking this theory up, and if you won't give it any credence, it would be nice if you at least gave it some respect.
I called your original theory a myth. Your "reconstructed" theory is okay. My issue with it at the moment is that it doesn't seem to fit in particularly well with what we already know.
there is no "default hypothesis." that moment on top of the plateau was very quick and not very well explained in the game. Everyone can have their own idea of what happened, wether you can understand it or not. thank you
It has been explained [and shown] before that MX's heart entered Terra's body. We can be sure of that much. We watched the common symbol of a heart, a sphere of light, enter Terra's body. We watched Terra's hair turn white, his eyes turn yellow, his voice change, his keyblade appear as MX's, his armor get up with his own keyblade to fight back. We can certainly be sure that Xehanort's heart possessed Terra. However, there was no similar sign of Xehanort's soul. We saw nothing other than that sphere of light enter Terra. MX was alive in 3D, so the body logically should have retained its soul. The soul has not been shown to remain with the heart rather than the body in similar situations. Therefore, the default or null hypothesis is that MX transferred nothing other than his heart to Terra's body.
 

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I was stating the truth. At the time, you only attempted to ignore everything I had pointed out wrong with your theory. I used as much respect as your lack of acknowledgement demanded.

Well as long as we're having a quote war...

You pretty much said that your original theory made sense, while at the same time moving towards your "reconstructed" theory:

You never actually acknowledged the flaws in your original theory or acted like what you said contradicted the original at all. Next time you reconstruct your theory, please express that that's what you're doing in the first place.

I called your original theory a myth. Your "reconstructed" theory is okay. My issue with it at the moment is that it doesn't seem to fit in particularly well with what we already know.

It has been explained [and shown] before that MX's heart entered Terra's body. We can be sure of that much. We watched the common symbol of a heart, a sphere of light, enter Terra's body. We watched Terra's hair turn white, his eyes turn yellow, his voice change, his keyblade appear as MX's, his armor get up with his own keyblade to fight back. We can certainly be sure that Xehanort's heart possessed Terra. However, there was no similar sign of Xehanort's soul. We saw nothing other than that sphere of light enter Terra. MX was alive in 3D, so the body logically should have retained its soul. The soul has not been shown to remain with the heart rather than the body in similar situations. Therefore, the default or null hypothesis is that MX transferred nothing other than his heart to Terra's body.
i was about to respond to this, but then i realized how sick im getting of this. If you're going to post in this thread, I kindly ask that you keep it on the topic of the guardian being Terra's heartless. Thank you.
 

Sephiroth0812

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In addition to all of that, we know that Nobodies retain memories of their previous lives - another component of the heart. Now, maybe it's just me, but it seems a little odd that the mind would be synonymous with or part of the soul - which has basically been said to act as an energy source for the body - and not a part of the heart, which contains a person's memories and emotions. Why not place the mind or will under the same category as the other parts of the psyche?

Just to shortly interject with this to maybe clear up something.

The Soul in the KH Universe is really just an energy battery and nothing more as far as we know. It is certainly not synonymous or interchangeable with "mind" or "spirit" because that's what the Heart in the KH Universe is. Several of the functions we normally associate with the soul rest within the heart in KH.

In Japanese, when characters speak about "Hearts", they say "Kokoro", which means not only "Heart" but also mind, spirit and essence of the individual.
The Lingering Will is practically nothing but a piece of animated armor held together by some of Terra's discarded thoughts and his strong hatred of Xehanort. There isn't actually anything tangible inside the armor itself, as Terra's mind itself is clearly still within his heart or he could not have conversed with Master Xehanort in Blank Points where he vows to show him the door one day.

I personally doubt though that the Guardian is Terra's Heartless because it was explicitly stated to be Xehanort's shadowy other and it is contradicted by the fact that we already see it before in the final battle in Birth By Sleep, also inside the golden dimension where Aqua and Terra can fight the Guardian together.

However, to elaborate for me the primary question would be if Terra even can have a Heartless. As a Heartless is born when the heart is either consumed or captured by the darkness and then lost from the body. However this never happened to Terra, his heart always remained in its body fused to Xehanort's after BBS, and the entity born when Apprentice Xehanort (the conglomerate of Xehanort's, Terra's and Eraqus' hearts) lost his heart is already well known as it is Ansem SoD.
You only spawn a Heartless if you lose your Heart and lose it to Darkness. Terra did not lose his heart, it was clouded with Darkness, yes, but it was captured and controlled by Xehanort to an extent, so the premise for the birth of a Heartless is not given.
 

Korai

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The Soul in the KH Universe is really just an energy battery and nothing more as far as we know.
but nobodies are capable of thought even when they don't have a heart.
explicitly stated to be Xehanort'sshadowy other
yes, it was. but that is not a very specific statement. Shadowy other? what does that mean? it could be that they were avoiding being too specific so that it could be a good plot twist in kh3. also, they didnt even have to mention the "shadowy other" they could have just said "defeat Xehanort!" if its not important to the story, then why wasn't the guardian in the battle from the start? why would they make a point of stopping halfway through the battle to show it coming out of terranorts chest? before the battle started, terranort said "terras heart has been extinguished; smothered by the darkness within him!" maybe his heart wasn't "extinguished", but maybe it was smothered by his darkness, and it had become a heartless. also, the part of the scene at the end of kh3d where the guardian grabbed riku and mickey and donald and goofy came in to save them was almost pointless, unless it was too get the players to notice the guardians presence with ansem.
inside the golden dimension where Aqua and Terra can fight the Guardian together.
oh yeah! I meant to address this a lot earlier in the thread but i got sidetracked. I think that this part of the battle was more symbolic than literal. perhaps the gold shining in the background represents terras light, the pink sphere his heart, terras character model his mind, and the guardian the darkness of his heart. note that you can only get to the go to the gold dimension when the guardian grabs you, terranort doesnt have to be anywhere near you when you are grabbed for you to go there.
As a Heartless is born when the heart is either consumed or captured by the darkness and then lost from the body. However this never happened to Terra, his heart always remained in its body
You only spawn a Heartless if you lose your Heart and lose it to Darkness.
i dont remember hearing that you have to lose your heart to become a heartless. although that is what almost always happens, that doesnt mean that it has to be lost. they often say "consumed by darkness" and when they say "lost to darkness" i dont think they mean it that literally, but more like "lost control of it to darkness"
xehanort is very skilled with controlling darkness. his heart could have used this skill to call out to the darkness in terras heart and turn him into a heartless, which doesn't necessarily have to exist outside of a body. ansem SOD was a heartless and he existed inside riku's body for a very long time.
but this brings up a question: if terra was a heartless, how come his heart was normal looking in blank points?
after you beat terranort, he says "get out of my heart!" and then stabs himself. he was trying to remove terras heart, but obviously failed. however, the guardian did appear behind him, and then collapse into a pool of darkness which led to the realm of darkness. perhaps when xehanort tried to remove terras heart, he half-succeeded. maybe he separated terras heart from the darkness which made it a heartless, and that darkness is what appeared behind him, but without a heart being part of it's composition, it was just darkness which could no longer hold itself together, thus collapsing and creating a portal to the realm of darkness as a side effect.
*pant, pant*
 
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Launchpad

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At the end of the day, on the subject of loss of soul = death, these characters are still human.
If Sora had jumped into the crocodile's mouth, he would've been eaten and killed.
If he got shot in the head by Barbossa, he would've died.
Every time you run out of HP, you can assume Sora is dead.

But in the story, no OC characters really HAVE died. Terra may very well be manifested within the Guardian, but KH tends to pull explanations out of nowhere anyway, so intensely debating is only going towards speculation, and not tentative fact.
 

Vanitas666

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oh yeah! I meant to address this a lot earlier in the thread but i got sidetracked. I think that this part of the battle was more symbolic than literal. perhaps the gold shining in the background represents terras light, the pink sphere his heart, terras character model his mind, and the guardian the darkness of his heart. note that you can only get to the go to the gold dimension when the guardian grabs you, terranort doesnt have to be anywhere near you when you are grabbed for you to go there.

I think your right and I just watched the cutscene before you fight Terranort as Terras sentiment and it hit me exactly what he is.
There's a orange wall showing up around them when Terra wake up and I think his mind is just connected to his armor through the heart. Just like the heart is connected to the keyblade as shown in Blank Points (or maybe it was the fm secret ending) and just like Ventus body is still connected to his heart as shown in the 3D ending or how all the organisation members in KH II where connected to Xehanorts heart in KH.
The armor probably don't contain any heart or soul or even will it's just connected through the heart at a distance.
The orange wall is probably caused by Terra and only exist in their mind.

I know it's not what the thread is about but it was mentioned before and you made me realize it so I thought I'd mention it.
Maybe a lot of people were already aware of this but I wasn't
 

Sephiroth0812

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but nobodies are capable of thought even when they don't have a heart.
That's because they have the memories from their human life from before. Memories are an integral part of the heart (and therefore the spirit) and help the Nobodies to form their personalities.

Roxas and Naminé are the only excpetions to this and that's also why they are so different from their original personas. They had to develop completely from scratch and create their own sense of self by creating own memories. That is seen in the very first part of Days when Roxas is "Zombie-like" and at first can't even speak.

yes, it was. but that is not a very specific statement. Shadowy other? what does that mean? it could be that they were avoiding being too specific so that it could be a good plot twist in kh3. also, they didnt even have to mention the "shadowy other" they could have just said "defeat Xehanort!" if its not important to the story, then why wasn't the guardian in the battle from the start? why would they make a point of stopping halfway through the battle to show it coming out of terranorts chest? before the battle started, terranort said "terras heart has been extinguished; smothered by the darkness within him!" maybe his heart wasn't "extinguished", but maybe it was smothered by his darkness, and it had become a heartless. also, the part of the scene at the end of kh3d where the guardian grabbed riku and mickey and donald and goofy came in to save them was almost pointless, unless it was too get the players to notice the guardians presence with ansem.oh yeah! I meant to address this a lot earlier in the thread but i got sidetracked. I think that this part of the battle was more symbolic than literal. perhaps the gold shining in the background represents terras light, the pink sphere his heart, terras character model his mind, and the guardian the darkness of his heart. note that you can only get to the go to the gold dimension when the guardian grabs you, terranort doesnt have to be anywhere near you when you are grabbed for you to go there.

Without jumping directly into the realm of speculation, it means at least that it is a part of Xehanort. That's what the description gives us at point blank value.

I won't deny that the Guardian may have some story significance, yet it coming only half-way through the final battle is usual Square-procedure of a final Boss having several forms. Story-wise, Xehanort realized that he couldn't overcome Aqua with just his Keyblade and that she was trying to help Terra take back control, so he decided to up the ante in the battle as he clearly summoned the Guardian of his own volition.
That Terra's heart was "extinguished" was a lie on Xehanort's part anyways as we not only see it fighting back later during the battle, nope, we even see Terra's heart conversing with Xehanort's in Blank Points, which is also an indication Terra didn't became a Heartless because Heartless are not able to talk. Sora also couldn't talk as a Heartless and Ansem SoD isn't really a Heartless per se as evidenced by the Ansem Reports from KH 1:
Ansem Report 12 said:
I have transcended to an existence of only the heart. I should have come back as a Heartless, but there is no sign of such a transformation.

That Terra's heart was drenched in Darkness is out of the question, but it is highly questionable if it could be turned into a Heartless since it was captured by Xehanort's heart.
The creation of a Heartless includes the rejection of the body, as otherwise the Heartless could not spawn.
The scene with Donald and Goofy can have multiple reasons, including the one you mentioned, comic relief and giving them some more screentime so I won't rule that out.

Rather than symbolic I took it always as a dive to the heart, with the golden dimension actually being an awakening with Aqua and Terra working together to expel Xehanort's darkness (in the form of the Guardian) from Terra's heart with their dual limit. This is also reinforced by the Guardian having the same HP bar as Terra-Xehanort.
The Guardian is always connected to Xehanort and never detaches itself for good, so it represents the darkness that is holding Terra's heart and body captive, the invading darkness of Xehanort, so it's logical for Terra and Aqua to both target it in order to try and expel Xehanort. At least that's what I took from the scenes when I played BBS.

i dont remember hearing that you have to lose your heart to become a heartless. although that is what almost always happens, that doesnt mean that it has to be lost. they often say "consumed by darkness" and when they say "lost to darkness" i dont think they mean it that literally, but more like "lost control of it to darkness"
xehanort is very skilled with controlling darkness. his heart could have used this skill to call out to the darkness in terras heart and turn him into a heartless, which doesn't necessarily have to exist outside of a body. ansem SOD was a heartless and he existed inside riku's body for a very long time.
but this brings up a question: if terra was a heartless, how come his heart was normal looking in blank points?
after you beat terranort, he says "get out of my heart!" and then stabs himself. he was trying to remove terras heart, but obviously failed. however, the guardian did appear behind him, and then collapse into a pool of darkness which led to the realm of darkness. perhaps when xehanort tried to remove terras heart, he half-succeeded. maybe he separated terras heart from the darkness which made it a heartless, and that darkness is what appeared behind him, but without a heart being part of it's composition, it was just darkness which could no longer hold itself together, thus collapsing and creating a portal to the realm of darkness as a side effect.
*pant, pant*

For a Heartless to even come into existence the body needs to be rejected/the Heart expelled, that's what is meant to "turn" into a Heartless. You can lose your Heart without becoming a Heartless, like Riku and Ventus, but you can't become a Heartless without separating Body and Heart.
The Ansem Reports from KH 1 give also an answer to this as well as to the fact that the soul always remains with the body:
Ansem Report 13 said:

Heart and soul are separate, and the soul remains in the body. But can we assume that the remaining body and soul perish?

Certainly when the heart changes into a Heartless, the body disappears.

I agree that Xehanort can control Terra's body through the darkness and may even get partly control over his heart with it, but that doesn't equal turning it into a Heartless. Going by that logic, any of Xehanort's vessels would have to be a Heartless.

Exactly, Terra's heart in Blank Points also does not add up with the theory of him being a Heartless. As for why Xehanort failed to expel Terra's heart, we have no definitive information about that but a common fan-interpretation is that Eraqus's heart may have had a hand in it somehow.

All in all, I won't say it is completely out of the question, but with the current information available I personally find it to be unlikely.
 

Korai

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we even see Terra's heart conversing with Xehanort's in Blank Points, which is also an indication Terra didn't became a Heartless because Heartless are not able to talk.
i already addressed this:
but this brings up a question: if terra was a heartless, how come his heart was normal looking in blank points?
after you beat terranort, he says "get out of my heart!" and then stabs himself. he was trying to remove terras heart, but obviously failed. however, the guardian did appear behind him, and then collapse into a pool of darkness which led to the realm of darkness. perhaps when xehanort tried to remove terras heart, he half-succeeded. maybe he separated terras heart from the darkness which made it a heartless, and that darkness is what appeared behind him, but without a heart being part of it's composition, it was just darkness which could no longer hold itself together, thus collapsing and creating a portal to the realm of darkness as a side effect.

I have transcended to an existence of only the heart. I should have come back as a Heartless, but there is no sign of such a transformation.
its possible that he IS describing himself as a heartless, he just doesnt realize he is one because the only heartless he had ever seen were monstrous in appearance and nature.
but you can't become a Heartless without separating Body and Heart.
Is there actually any evidence that this is a rule? this is what happens under normal circumstances, but you've gotta admit, the whole terranort thing is far from normal conditions. Xehanort literally wrote the book on darkness (his various reports). he knows more about it than anybody in any of the games. im guessing that if he has access to someones heart, he can turn them into a heartless, as long as there is enough darkness in that heart. if there isnt, he could probably even use his own.
Heart and soul are separate, and the soul remains in the body. But can we assume that the remaining body and soul perish?
Certainly when the heart changes into a Heartless, the body disappears.
these are natural circumstances, or at least simulated, yet uncontrolled circumstances. in the case of terranort, xehanort is controlling the situation. he probably has enough skill to turn terras heart into a heartless and keep it inside terras body, and if there must be a separation, maybe terras heart was made heartless the just before it popped out of terranort.
Going by that logic, any of Xehanort's vessels would have to be a Heartless.
how? xehanorts heart is commanding terras body. all he has to do to have full control is suppress terras heart, which he does. im just saying saying that MX could have turned terras heart into a heartless because it was fighting back more than he expected, (likely due to the presence of eraqus) and he can better control terras heart if it is a heartless, a being of darkness, as darkness is xehanort's forte. but because of terras strong resistance, eraqus's aid from the inside, and aquas help from the outside, terra could have reverted from a heartless, much like sora did when kairi helped him from the outside. i didnt mean to imply that terra had to be a heartless in order for MX to control his body, the two are unrelated, except that since MX was struggling, it made it easier
 
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billyzanesucks

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How exactly would turning Terra into a Heartless help Xehanort fight against him if it didn't affect Terra's heart?
 

Sephiroth0812

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i already addressed this:

its possible that he IS describing himself as a heartless, he just doesnt realize he is one because the only heartless he had ever seen were monstrous in appearance and nature.

Is there actually any evidence that this is a rule? this is what happens under normal circumstances, but you've gotta admit, the whole terranort thing is far from normal conditions. Xehanort literally wrote the book on darkness (his various reports). he knows more about it than anybody in any of the games. im guessing that if he has access to someones heart, he can turn them into a heartless, as long as there is enough darkness in that heart. if there isnt, he could probably even use his own.

Going by what you wrote there, the Guardian would have to be required to "collapse" in any further appearance it was in, yet it didn't.

Uh, I know you're eager to defend your theory, but do you realize that you made a highly contradicting statement here regarding Xehanort?
At first you presume that Xehanort describes himself as a Heartless but not realizing he is himself one, despite having researched those things a whole year prior? It's not only the appearance that makes a Heartless (and besides, the Guardian is monstrous as well).

Well, we have not yet seen any case or hint that this isn't a rule, as each and every person who became a Heartless did lose his/her body, even Sora and Ansem SoD, who are the most special cases out of all.
Now here in the second paragraph you then turn the tables around to say that Xehanort "wrote the book on Darkness" and knows more than anyone else regarding it, even so much that he can turn Hearts into Heartless without actually using the procedure necessary for it? This contradicts on how Xehanort according to you "didn't notice" that he is a Heartless. Either he does know all that or he doesn't.


these are natural circumstances, or at least simulated, yet uncontrolled circumstances. in the case of terranort, xehanort is controlling the situation. he probably has enough skill to turn terras heart into a heartless and keep it inside terras body, and if there must be a separation, maybe terras heart was made heartless the just before it popped out of terranort.

how? xehanorts heart is commanding terras body. all he has to do to have full control is suppress terras heart, which he does. im just saying saying that MX could have turned terras heart into a heartless because it was fighting back more than he expected, (likely due to the presence of eraqus) and he can better control terras heart if it is a heartless, a being of darkness, as darkness is xehanort's forte. but because of terras strong resistance, eraqus's aid from the inside, and aquas help from the outside, terra could have reverted from a heartless, much like sora did when kairi helped him from the outside. i didnt mean to imply that terra had to be a heartless in order for MX to control his body, the two are unrelated, except that since MX was struggling, it made it easier

These are all only "probablys" and "ifs" and "whens" though, there is no hint or evidence that makes the Guardian being Terra's Heartless more likely than it being the Darkness of Xehanort, something of Eraqus or maybe something entirely else.
Terra's heart also never "popped out" of Terra-Xehanort's body. The only time when Terra's heart was truly lost (alongside Xehanort's and Eraqus') was when Ansem SoD and Xemnas were created a year after BBS.

Xehanort's heart is also commanding the bodies of the other vessels, and we do not know if Xehanort ever even achieved full control, as everytime we saw him there was still something of Terra resisting.
Now in DDD, it is implied that Xehanort even abandoned Terra's body as his main host while still holding some dominance over the body to have it act as one of the Thirteen.
Nomura said:
Q: What happened to Terra's heart and body?
A: In this game, Master Xehanort does not appear in the form of Terra-Xehanort when he transferred his heart, but as the old man he was before he took control of Terra's body. During the revival, what happened to Terra's body, and Terra's heart that was in opposition to Xehanort's control? In Kingdom Hearts, Birth by Sleep, it is to be considered that it was thought the whereabouts of the heart of Terra's master, Eraqus rested within his body.

Having Terra's heart drenched in Darkness Xehanort already got his forte, I don't see why he would go the same again, he seems also pretty chill during their conversation in Blank Points, and if Terra got "reverted" from being a Heartless by Eraqus' and Aqua's efforts he would only be a Heartless for the battle of the Final Episode, which doesn't really mean much and also goes against it then being the Guardian, as we see the Guardian ten years later again controlled by Ansem, where it even turned into the World of Chaos for once.
 

Korai

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as we see the Guardian ten years later again controlled by Ansem, where it even turned into the World of Chaos for once.
he could have become a heartless again at the same time ansem was made.
Having Terra's heart drenched in Darkness Xehanort already got his forte, I don't see why he would go the same again
thats what xehanort thought, but the presence of eraqus made it much harder than anticipated.
he seems also pretty chill during their conversation in Blank Points
thats because their hearts were "locked away", so they couldn't do anything. This also caused Terranort's amnesia
he would only be a Heartless for the battle of the Final Episode, which doesn't really mean much
If anything, it would make it easier for terra to fight xehanort in blank points, but their hearts were locked away.
Well, we have not yet seen any case or hint that this isn't a rule
thats not reason enough to assume that it is.
Terra's heart also never "popped out" of Terra-Xehanort's body
watch this video from 6:02 to 6:12. if the guardian is terras heartless, then it happened right here
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by rjk42
i already addressed this:

its possible that he IS describing himself as a heartless, he just doesnt realize he is one because the only heartless he had ever seen were monstrous in appearance and nature.

Is there actually any evidence that this is a rule? this is what happens under normal circumstances, but you've gotta admit, the whole terranort thing is far from normal conditions. Xehanort literally wrote the book on darkness (his various reports). he knows more about it than anybody in any of the games. im guessing that if he has access to someones heart, he can turn them into a heartless, as long as there is enough darkness in that heart. if there isnt, he could probably even use his own.

Going by what you wrote there, the Guardian would have to be required to "collapse" in any further appearance it was in, yet it didn't.
and why is that? I wasn't even talking about the guardian there
[QUOTE
 
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Sephiroth0812

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he could have become a heartless again at the same time ansem was made.

thats what xehanort thought, but the presence of eraqus made it much harder than anticipated.

thats because their hearts were "locked away", so they couldn't do anything. This also caused Terranort's amnesia

If anything, it would make it easier for terra to fight xehanort in blank points, but their hearts were locked away.

thats not reason enough to assume that it is.

watch this video from 6:02 to 6:12. if the guardian is terras heartless, then it happened right here

and why is that? I wasn't even talking about the guardian there

How convenient, but Ansem was the being made from when Apprentice Xehanort lost his heart, which is actually Terra's and Xehanort's heart glued together. Xehanort uses Terra's darkness as an "ark" to sustain his own heart and keep control of the body, by turning Terra's heart into a Heartless he would destroy the ark he inhabits and the body would fade away.

And yet Xehanort wasn't in any hurry or indicated that he needs to adjust his plans, he calmly acknowledges Eraqus' interference and proceeds to tell Terra he's patient and has all time in the world to settle their dispute.

In fact it is very heavily implied since DDD that Terra-Xehanort faked his amnesia, and they were both still stalking each other looking for an opening to take control, they just weren't fighting with their weapons anymore, but with their wills.

Being a Heartless would not have made anything easier for Terra, on the contrary because he would be just a mindless beast then.

For most people it apparently isn't, and why should it not be assumed as such when the games or even Nomura's interviews never show the creation of a Heartless in any other manner? For the sake of twisting stuff around so the Guardian has to be Terra's Heartless?

What exactly does happen at that point in the video though? Xehanort only summons the Guardian with no indication what happened inside, the trinity archives also speak only of Xehanort's darkness bursting forth.
If anything, the video shows even more that the Guardian is either some form of Xehanort's darkness or something entirely different as it is created from Master Xehanort's Keyblade, as whenever Terra-Xehanort summons his Keyblade the Guardian disappears into it and reappears once the Keyblade is dismissed.
That's not to say that the Guardian is the Keyblade, but it points clearly in the direction of it being something from Xehanort.

You were, but the part after "I already addressed this:" was a double quote so it didn't show up in my own quote.
This part:
maybe he separated terras heart from the darkness which made it a heartless, and that darkness is what appeared behind him, but without a heart being part of it's composition, it was just darkness which could no longer hold itself together, thus collapsing and creating a portal to the realm of darkness as a side effect.

was what my statement was aimed at.
 
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